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Howard Quick
5th November 2000, 00:11
Hi All,
I posted this story on another forum, thought you people may be interested.
This one should make the spine tingle.
A new student of mine(approx 3 weeks)went to view an Hapkido demonstration here in Melbourne last Friday night.
The demo culminated in a display of the head instuctors(grand master I believe he calls himself)sword prowess. Please keep in mind that this story(absolutely, undeniably true) is second hand so if some minor details are a little off I appologise.


Apparently the master had one of his students wear some sort of head gear where he has two spikes sticking up from the sides of his head(rabit ear fashion) on each of which are placed some sort of vegetable(apparently something like a large white turnip....the vegies always cop it!). And in the middle, across the top of his head some sort of long cylindrical object(we'll call it a cucumber to keep in with the vegie theme).


Then the master blindfolded himself and drew his sword(Shinken/Iaito..don't know...doesn't matter).
After a couple of practice swings and one near miss the master realised he was out of range(maybe part of the build up). After a closer step he swung again(yoko giri?), and cut the two upright(rabit ears)vegies. Next it was the cucumbers' turn, and as he performed a straight downward cut(shin choku giri?)a loud CRACK was heard.
When the assistant leaned forward holding his head with blood streaming from a gash in the top of it, the audience new something had gone horribly wrong.

Anyway the guy ended up with 32 stitches in the top of his head.
This sort of stupid behaviour, in my opinion as I am sure it is in all of the people who submit to this forum, is completely and utterly unacceptable, these sort of people are obviously a danger to others as well as themselves and have no place in the Martial/fighting arts community.
When are these fools going to learn?
Man I'm really pi--ed!!!
Keigu
Howard Quick(Shinkendo Australia/Senjutsu Ryu Jujutsu)
>

dbruere
5th November 2000, 16:05
Originally posted by Howard Quick
Hi All,
...
up). After a closer step he swung again(yoko giri?), and cut the two upright(rabit ears)vegies. Next it was the cucumbers' turn, and as he performed a straight downward cut(shin choku giri?)a loud CRACK was heard.
When the assistant leaned forward holding his head with blood streaming from a gash in the top of it, the audience new something had gone horribly wrong.

Anyway the guy ended up with 32 stitches in the top of his head.
This sort of stupid behaviour, in my opinion as I am sure it is in all of the people who submit to this forum, is completely and utterly unacceptable, these sort of people are obviously a danger to others as well as themselves and have no place in the Martial/fighting arts community.
When are these fools going to learn?



Clearly any swordsman worthy of the name would have split the guy right down the middle.

A disappointing demo.

On a related theme concerning my art (Shorinji Kempo), I was at a public demo of a technique for disarmed the usual knife weilding thug. It all went properly, with the added bonus that the knife went spinning through the air, and stuck into the floor point first about one metre from the nearest member of the audience. They thought it was great!

[Urban legend]
I have also heard of the same kind of thing happening in another art, but this time it stuck in the only empty chair in the hall.

Gassho
Dirk

Gil Gillespie
7th November 2000, 19:25
Hello Howard

From your post: "Shinken/Iaito. . .don't know. . .doesn't matter." I believe that you don't know but it most certainly does matter. An Iaito is just that, a sword for Iai practice. It has no cutting edge. It is usually made out of some non-rusting alloy or stainless steel and has shinogi, longitudinal grooves along both sides of the blade that are not representatives of blood grooves, as is often thought. They are a training aid for obtaining proper hasogi (blade angle) in the cut, producing a loud whoosh when the angle is correct, and an embarrassing silence when it is off just the tiniest.

A shinken is a "live blade;" it is meant to cut. It is forged of high carbon steel sometimes in a painstaking lengthly process intended to duplicate feudal craftsmanship in product and spirit, increasingly in more modern but still precise smithing techniques, to satisfy the growing tameshigiri market. As the flowing blood in your demonstration depicts, there is a HUGE difference

Howard Quick
7th November 2000, 19:49
Dear Gil,
As the Australian representative of the International Shinkendo Federation, I most certainly do know the difference between a Shinken and an Iaito.
The reason I said it doesn't matter is for the purpose of the story. It doesn't matter whether it was a shinken, Iaito, plastic ninja turtles sword.....etc.
The point I'm getting at in this story is not the type of sword that was used(and I would almost put money on it being a cheap $200.00 Marto stainless steal, sharp, piece of trash)but the stupidity of the person swinging it to attempt to cut an object on someones head.
I do understand that if it was a shinken instead of an Iaito the injuries incurred by the vegetable stand may have been alot worse.
A little more info has come to hand since the incident.
When the police and ambulance arrived, the 'master' took off. It turns out he is apparently an illegal immigrant and had overstayed his visa.
Keigu
Howard Quick

Nathan Scott
7th November 2000, 19:54
Another wanker that shouldn't be using Japanese style swords. It has nothing to do with his art, and he was clearly not trained in it's use.

But, people love the romantic idea of the "Japanese Sword", and everyone wants one to pose with for photographs or perform stunts at demos. But, they don't care enough about it to go and actually seek qualified instruction in it's proper use. Amazing.

Don't get me wrong, accidents can happen. But THESE kinds of accidents could have been avoided by not performing stupid stunts with Japanese swords. It is offensive to the smiths and history of the Japanese sword, and is VERY offensive to those of us who seriously study swordsmanship and are affected by irresponsible acts such as this. These kinds of accidents are what make headlines - "Guy with a samurai sword cuts assistants head open while cutting fresh fruits and vegetables blindfolded". Nice. I really want to be associated with him.

As far as Mr. Quick's comment about Iaito and Shinken, I think what he meant was that in this situation is does not really matter. Of course there is a big difference technically between a shinken and an Iaito, but in this case a head was split open with something that resembled a "Samurai Sword", and that is all that will make the paper.

FWIW, it sounds like it WAS an Iaito or sword without an edge, considering that you could hear the impact of the sword but his assistant survived the blow.

Thanks for bringing this to light. I hope people will start to learn from crap like this.

PS. Howard-san, could you see about getting the Grand Master's name? I think he should be honored boldly in the Bad Budo hall of fame.



[Edited by Nathan Scott on 11-07-2000 at 01:58 PM]

Nathan Scott
7th November 2000, 20:44
There are so many of these kinds of stories out there, that I think I'm going to add a "Kenjutsu Darwin Awards" page to the library of my web page, just to honor them.

If any of you have kept news clips or have factual knowledge of sword related accidents, please PM them to me.

I remember Guy-san had one about a boy being impaled in Japan, but I can't seem to find it now.

Thanks,

Hans Andersen
7th November 2000, 23:24
Nathan Scott wrote:
There are so many of these kinds of stories out there, that I think I'm going to add a "Kenjutsu Darwin Awards" page to the library of my web page, just to honor them.

--

Mr. Scott,

I would like to ask you to step back a moment and reassess the idea of a "Kenjustu Darwin Awards" page. I'm not saying that a page filled with cautionary tales such as these isn't appropriate or worthwhile, but please be sure not to mimic the mocking tone of the "real" Darwin awards. If the "boy getting impaled at a demo" tale you're referring to is the same one that Guy told me about, then there's nothing funny about it, and presenting it in a page full of "Darwin Awards" strikes me as being in poor taste.

Cases of accidental injury or death just aren't funny.

Wannabe grand masters who wear their hakama backwards, now THAT's funny.

dbruere
7th November 2000, 23:26
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
There are so many of these kinds of stories out there, that I think I'm going to add a "Kenjutsu Darwin Awards" page to the library of my web page, just to honor them.

If any of you have kept news clips or have factual knowledge of sword related accidents, please PM them to me.


I was watching one of those TV progs, ie 'When horrible things happen on camera' etc when they featured a sword disarm demo.

The guy with the (real) sword was swept, and as he went down he cut off his own big toe, which bounced along the stage.

Sensei handed it to him after he limped off.
Respect!

Gassho
Dirk

Nathan Scott
7th November 2000, 23:42
Mr. Andersen,

My intention was not to create a humor page, but a place in which to document the ammount of poor judgement being used out there. The "Darwin award" was more of a literal idea, as opposed to comical. But I can see where the association with the other darwin awards may make light of it when that wasn't my intention.

I'll name it something else...

Dirk-san,

Thanks for the story, but without a program name, date, instructor name or style name it is a bit hard to document. If you can assemble any of that, it would be helpful.

Thanks,

Kolschey
8th November 2000, 03:24
Ever see the famous Monty Python sketch on defending against a man armed with a bannana?

Gil Gillespie
8th November 2000, 03:29
Hello again, Howard

I appreciate the spirit of your response to my post. To someone of your stature I may have come off as condescending. Not intended. One of the risks we run on this forum is addressing a post at face value without any knowledge of the depth of s(he) who posted. I addressed your post at face value. I stand corrected. I hope you received my post in the spirit in which it was offered.

As to the youth who was impailed, no it is not a source of light-heartedness. The blade flew out of the tsuba in that regrettable instance. Ironically, we were discussing it in my dojo this weekend. (Whew) During our opening ceremony as Iaidoka, when we place the sword vertically in front of us prior to inserting it into our obi, the ostensible REASON for this is to check the mekugi, that it is in place and such a thing cannot happen. Don't go through the motions with such an important observation.

Train joyfully.

Howard Quick
8th November 2000, 04:45
Hey Nathan-san,
I have the boy being impaled article hanging in my dojo for all to read as a reminder not to become too complascent in their training and sword care.
As for the 'master' responsible for the other incident, I believe he was a 'master Kim' from Hapkido fame.
I have had a look on the net to find this guy but there are too many 'master Kim's'.
I know the people responsible for the demo so I will find out exactly who he is.

Hey Gil,
No worries mate!i)
Keigu
Howard Quick

Meik Skoss
9th November 2000, 14:54
Anent morons waving sharp, pointy things or doing stupid demonstrations and hurting other people due to their own idiocies, I saw a film of a similar incident at the (ahem!) "Prestigious Long Beach Invitational Chop-Sockey Tournament [I won't dignify it by saying Karate, or even Kuhroddy]" a couple of years ago. I might also ask, what's swordsmanship got to do with chop-sockey, anyway? Oh, yeah, I forgot... a demonstration of Samyureye Spirit. Yeah. Right...

Apparently, some idiot chop-sockey er... instructor [yes, I guess that's what I can call him -- an idiot, not teacher] thought he'd "wow!" the local yokels with a demonstration of his martial skill and overall budosity by slicing a big cucumber as it rested on his student's neck. Seriously!

After a couple of tippy-tappy touches where he failed to break the skin (of the cucumber [they're really tough, are they not?]), Master Bozo put in a lot of right arm/shoulder (did I mention he was up there on stage with no uwagi, wearing a hakama *and* a dandara obi outside the hakama? or that our Master of Mayhem and Martial Mania was a member of the Beef Trust, but clearly no rocket scientist?) and managed to cut through the cucumber, slicing it into two more-or-less equal halves. Oh, yes, along with his students throat. Uh, oh and oops! Did I fail to mention that he then stomped around the stage, pissed off that his student had made him look silly? Seriously!

Personally (and, yes, accuse me of social Darwinism if you like), I think that people like this, their parents, AND their students, are a menace to society and should be shot on sight. Okay, in the interest of fairness, we can give 'em a thirty-second head start, but probably ought to shoot at about the twenty-first second, to reduce general levels of mopery and dopery. I mean, really, folks, do people that silly deserve to breathe OUR air? Nope? I don't think so, either.

Kolschey
9th November 2000, 16:13
Goodness, Meik! That is absolutely ourageous!
Here's a Darwin solution...Invite the various "masters" to a seminar that will award them a sokeship in a recently discovered Koryu that specialises in bullet dodging. Certification will require a substantial donation to the Oriental Academy of Advanced Ballistic Evasion, of course.
Other variations could involve large trucks, poisonous animals, or consumption of caustic chemicals.
That way you can clean house and be paid well for the day's work!

Richard A Tolson
9th November 2000, 16:42
Please tell me your name is not pronounced "Meek" Skoss!!! :) I will donate the Baretta 92FS if we can include any Kenpo stlist who twirls a katana like a Darn-Do/Chinese Broadsword (my personal gripe).

9th November 2000, 17:33
Meik,

Go ahead, let your hair down and tell us how you really feel. I'm dying here! LOL!


Somewhere in the dark recesses of our past ancestry we must be related. It's that we both have a missing gene, the political correctness gene. That sucker is GONE!


:)

Tobs

Nathan Scott
9th November 2000, 19:07
Hi,

I've heard of this cucumber slicing at the long beach tournament.

Can anybody tell me what year it was exactly, and who the instructor was (or what style)?

Thanks!

Cady Goldfield
9th November 2000, 19:38
Meik seems to be adept at coining new terms. I'm wondering whether we can get that as a legitimate entry in a MA glossary. We could even develop some sort of meter or measuring device by which to quantify budosity. Such a thing would come in handy for ranking various individuals, events, dojo and arts/system in terms of their degree of budosity.

Margaret Lo
9th November 2000, 21:20
Originally posted by Meik Skoss

Personally (and, yes, accuse me of social Darwinism if you like), I think that people like this, their parents, AND their students, are a menace to society and should be shot on sight. Okay, in the interest of fairness, we can give 'em a thirty-second head start, but probably ought to shoot at about the twenty-first second, to reduce general levels of mopery and dopery. I mean, really, folks, do people that silly deserve to breathe OUR air? Nope? I don't think so, either.

Meik, maybe its time to order up a ninja assassination or 10?

M

9th November 2000, 21:22
Cady,

Maybe Meik is really George W. Bush in disquise.

Then as the pres Meik could bring dignitude to budosity.

:) Tobs

Earl Hartman
9th November 2000, 21:46
People who don't know how to use swords properly are criminables, and if I am delected Pepsodent, they will all be summilarily expectorated.

Cady Goldfield
9th November 2000, 21:49
Earlardo,
If you are elongated as Precedent, I will give you my hard-felt coagulations. Absotivolutely.

Cadina

Nathan Scott
9th November 2000, 22:13
Ummm... yeah O.K.:

MEIK FOR PEPSODENT!!

YEAH!!

I want a dogi in every closet. Fresh sushi in every bento box (yeah, right). Reduced prices on those little sandwiches with the crust cut off they always sell on the shinkansen. TP in every eki benjo. More school girls with loose socks (oops)...

(ahem)

He'll get my vote!


Wait a minute, oh yeah, I can't figure out how to fill out my voter ballot! Guess I'll stick to teaching Marital Arts!

Duh,

ghp
10th November 2000, 02:41
Nathan,


. More school girls with loose socks (oops)...

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/4655/sg022.JPG http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/4655/sg001.JPG

Tsk, tsk, tsk. The things I do for this forum.

For you, Nathan. http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/4655/pictures1.html


Regards,
Guy
(And do you know how many sites I had go through to get something clean? Just search for "japanese school girls" and find out for yourself/yourselves) :D

Nathan Scott
10th November 2000, 02:49
Uh oh,

I should have known better. Your going to get us in to trouble Guy!!

Yuck yuck yuck

BTW, we're still on topic here, right?

Neil Yamamoto
10th November 2000, 03:59
Boy, have they grown since I last saw them. You want an introduction Nathan?

:D

Gordon Smith
10th November 2000, 15:58
Ok, we're beginning to skirt the edges of good taste, and relevance.

Call me a puritan, but I fail to see how pictures of schoolgirls continues the thread of "really bad judgement."

That being said, I'd still be happy voting for Meik.

-G-

Jeff Bristol
10th November 2000, 16:12
Guy, I think we all owe you a debt that can never be repaid.

Jeff Bristol

[Edited by Jeff Bristol on 11-10-2000 at 10:16 AM]

bobelder
17th November 2000, 00:35
This one is for Nathan Scott and Gil Gilespie. I have an idea for your "darwin" awards. In my dojo I have a statement I tell the students when they are about to screw up and hurt themselves. It has gone SO much farther in getting results that to say, " don't do it that way or you 'll hurt yourself." that never seemed to work. In stead, after these last few years of wanting to teach from experience and not just blindly preach what someone told me or I read in a book. I decided I'd do it all and run the class from lessons I'd personally learned. Like splitting the saya and cutting clean thru the web of my hand in front os 1,500 people. Or dropping my sword from being hung over. Or cutting pigs heads off. Or hitting the top of my shiny bald head with a 4x4 suburito by dropping it on the way forward. Or cutting every gi top I've ever owned from doing a noto to close to my chest and too far across the front. Or slicing a really neat rectangular piece of hakama and calf muscle by moving my body to the side before starting a gyaku - kesa. Or cutting my knuckles during a reverse noto move. Or chipping my sword on bamboo, or bending it on any cut. Or pulling the wrong sword off the rack during class from jet lag, ( now that should be worth a duel) . Or well, damn near anything you can do wrong that doesn't involve hurting some one else, I may have done it. Anyway, what I was getting at was a new name for idiot sword users. And that is what I say in class. "If you do it that way, you are gonna pull a Bob." It works every time. So I suggest you start the " Idiot Bob" awards. I'd be proud. Bob Elder

Nathan Scott
17th November 2000, 01:00
Ha ha ha!!

That's quite an impressive list. Thanks.

Interestingly, most of what you wrote are things I also lecture my students to be careful about. However, I've carried over a fondness for whacking me students across the shins with my bokuto if they don't listen to me.

They tend to be pleasantly attentive in regards to safety issues.

:D

bobelder
17th November 2000, 01:11
I 'd whack 'em too, but some have guns and I'm not sure who. I have one on a table next to the training floor but may not reach it in time. Maybe I'll have to carry it in my top. I know that Hooker Senseo would back me up, he's always close to his gun. Our dojo is in a famous crack head area of Orlando and we've been visited by the local boys . But they didn't come back. Someone should ask Dennis Hooker why. Pissed me off I wasn't there that night. They are welcome anytime. Gil , you out there? He knows. Bob Elder

Nathan Scott
17th November 2000, 01:30
Thinking in terms of safety, Bob, you might be better off just setting up some claymore anti-personel mines on either side of the front door to your dojo, wired with a remote switch of some kind.

Drop those uninvited gangtas down to "knee level" at the flick of a switch.

You see, that way you don't have to worry about possible accidents with the AK-47 falling out of your dogi while your teaching. I hate when that happens. I have to buy size 8 dogi's to fit over my assault kit.

Always good for a suggestion,



[Edited by Nathan Scott on 11-16-2000 at 07:33 PM]

bobelder
17th November 2000, 01:47
Heh heh! well that might hurt my delicate ears. But it sure would liven things up. Hey ain't you in L.A.? That's worse than here. Rebel Bob Elder

Nathan Scott
17th November 2000, 01:51
What were we talking about?

Animo
17th November 2000, 02:06
In his dojo, we all listen to Sensei Elder, and would all like to be like him. :shadowmas I don’t mean we want to “Pull a Bob” and repeat his mistakes. How many people will tell you every mistake they ever made in the hope you won’t repeat them. Sensei Elder tells it like it is. He does not sugar coat it. He does not put a wrapper of mystic around it. He teaches a down-to-earth version of swordsmanship. If uninvited guest arrive at the dojo, there is always plenty of room for what is left of them in the pond behind the building.:up:

MarkF
18th November 2000, 09:55
Nathan,
Budosity, wasn't it?

Tetsutaka
18th November 2000, 13:19
Even though the count is not complete, if I'm electorated to be Pepsodent, I will promise to nominate Bob Elder as my Secretariat of Deference.

TEMPLAR
2nd December 2000, 16:47
Hello all:
Well, this post is in the hinterlands of this thread, still I hope it gets noticed, for I have a theory as to whom this ham handed sword master is. His name could be Scott Shaw and he is purported to be the ONLY 9th degree in Hapkido. In most Korean arts 9th degree is given upon death for service to the art, but I digress. Grand Master Shaw has a book called "Samurai Zen" that is so terrible, so awful, it's just plain crap. Grip wrong, stance very wrong, movements hilarioiusly wrong, to read this very bad book is to laugh your ass off. You will need a box of tissues to wipe up the tears. Still, he posits himself as a swordman expert, while never giving the name of an instructor or his own rank. Scott Shaw might be good at Hapkido, but if you look at his other books you will have your doubts. Even I, someone who has merely self studied the art of iaido and kenjutsu can easily tell this guy is a very sad Japanese sword stylist.
Of course in closing, I should mention, it could be another only Hapkido Grand Master in the world and not Scott Shaw. A man who's name is synonomous with hilarity to me.

Nathan Scott
4th December 2000, 18:23
Oh, that does kind of make sense. What a familiar name.

I've enjoyed flipping through Mr. Shaw's book and articles on kenjutsu in the past. Very enlightening. His knowledge and skill with a sword is apparent from the photographs alone.

I'd be indepted if someone can confirm or deny Mr. Shaw as the demonstrator in question. I've got the first draft of my "Sword related accidents" page online, and would like to document such cases as accurately as possible.

Those interested can take a look at it here:

http://www.shinkendo.com/library.html

Scroll to the bottom and click on "sword related accidents".

Regards,

Howard Quick
4th December 2000, 19:25
Hi all,
Nathan-san, the guys name is 'Master Kim'.
I'll try and find out more, I've got a lead.
Howard Quick

Nathan Scott
4th December 2000, 19:33
A Korean Master named "Kim"?!? That narrows it down! :)

Thanks for the assistance, though. I hope something turns up.

I have to admit that I'm a little surprised... (on second thought, scratch that)

Regards,



[Edited by Nathan Scott on 12-04-2000 at 01:43 PM]

Cady Goldfield
4th December 2000, 19:49
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
A Korean Master named "Kim"?!? That narrows it down! :)


BWA-HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! :laugh:
Now that tickled my funnybone, but good!

*snort*
*gasp*

Thanks, Nathan. My sinuses are clear now!

Cady

Howard Quick
4th December 2000, 19:56
Yeah!....Yeah!....I know, I believe I know his full name and whereabouts but I don't wish to post it until I've seen the tape and found out for sure.
Seeya!(got to go to work....damn it!).
Howard Quick

Darren Yeow
13th December 2000, 16:33
Whoa, a master Kim of Hapkido??

There's a hapkido place near my dad's place of work, with a high ranking hapkido master (7th dan?) who's named master Kim. Hmm, do you think I should go and accuse him of head chopping?? It might give me something to do during these holidays, serious.

DY

Linda Hyojung Chin
25th December 2000, 07:25
Hmm...
I know this "thread" is already few weeks old, so I'm not sure if it's appropriate to post this now. But I am sorry to hear of these things ("sorry" is not quite accurate, but I think you can get the idea...) I hope that E-budo members will not (!!) think that "all Koreans" are like this stupid person.

I am a Korean college student, and train in Kendo and Iaido. But I am not like "all Koreans" and say ridiculous comments on how Kendo is Korean, etc. (This is sad, because it makes "every Korean" seem ignorant...) In case anyone would care, there ARE indeed Korean students out there who genuinely respect and train in the Japanese budo, and certainly do not want to tamper with historical fact and etc... Maybe that is why people say I am "strange Korean." Sigh... ;)

Anyway, sorry about the digression. But hearing of such incidents really makes me sad (and mad), especially since (as everybody here already knows) arts like Hapkido have no connection with Japanese sword art training whatsoever...

Sincerely,
Hyojung Chin (Linda)

Ellis Amdur
25th December 2000, 17:00
My kick boxing coach in Japan was brought up in Asakushabashi, which is the most "downtown" area of Tokyo. The most traditional yakuza, crafts, temples - the center of "Edokko" - old Tokyoites. When he was a young guy, he got fascinated with Zatoichi films, got himself a shikomizue (sword cane) and practiced diligently. One day, he was practicing the "return" where, after slashing the air in figure-eights, you put the cane behind your back and thrust the sword home. He did, plunging it many inches deep in the cheek of his ass. Tough guy that he was, he managed to pull it back out (when he described this, he mimed a desperate two handed pull, simultaneously trying not to twist his hips as he yanked.)

So then he went to the hospital. However, blade cuts are reported to the police the same way gun shot wounds are in the states. He knew that if word ever got out what had happened, he'd never be able to walk the streets of Asakushabashi again. the police would have been delighted to spread the word on anyone, but especially on this bad boy. (now an elder statesman, it's just a funny story, but then!!!!?). The following dialogue, even funnier in Japanese then ensued. I'll use an assumed name for the coach:

doctor - "Hmmm. So what happened to your arse? Got stabbed with a sword or something?"

Tanaka - (with a quesey smile on his face, and an ingratiating suck-up tone) "No.no. no. Sensei. I happened to sit on a file while I was doing some carpentry."

Doctor - "Hmmm. I've never seen a wound with a file that looked like that."

Tanaka - "Really sensei. really really really. It was a file."

doctor - "Hmm. I think I'm going to have to report this just to be safe."

Tanaka - "Safe!!!! That wouldn't be safe. . . . I mean, not safe, but it would be a mistake! Yes, a big mistake! It was a file I sat on. Please sensei. It has to be a file!"

Doctor - "Hmmm. clean edges. no ragged pieces of meat, hardly any threads in the wound, I've never seen anything like that from a file."

At which point, pants around his ankles, blood streaming down his leg and tears pouring from his eyes, Tanaka hit the ground in a full bow, nose on the linoleum, arse in the air, pleading, 'Sensei. Please. It was a file. It has to be a file. Let's do it that way, shall we. A file!!!!!!!! Onegai Simasu. Onegai! Onegai!."

And the doctor pulled out his needle, and began stitiching, saying, "O.K. kid, we'll call it a file, but I can't imagine you'll get much polishing done with a file that smooth.

Best

Ellis Amdur



[Edited by Ellis Amdur on 12-25-2000 at 11:03 AM]

Howard Quick
25th December 2000, 20:53
Hi Linda,
I don't think anyone here believes all Koreans are like the 'Master Kim' in question.
I know of an Australian who's circus trick of stupidity is to cut an apple on his students throat. 'Master Kim' just happened to cut too far and therefore made the 'head'lines(pardon the pun). Nathan...I'm still trying to get the video, I'll bring it over next year, or maybe you can watch it at my place when you come here next year!(Huh!...Huh!..)(hint...hint)
Keigu
Howard Quick

Sheridan
26th December 2000, 00:01
For the first time in my life I participated in Hap Ki Do a couple of weeks ago. The whole seminar was precipitated by a quick disertation of the history of Hap Ki Do. Now, I've heard this story before from a Daito-ryu exponent's point of view, but never from the Hap Ki Do practitioner's point of view. We all know the story of Sokaku Sensei's manservent Chen and the "link" between the two arts, but according to Hap Ki Do's history the "parent art" of Daito-ryu actually dates back to 850 AD! This is close to four hundred years earlier than the most rabid Daito-ryu practitioner will spout off! Anyways, I digress, the point is that if you read the KANJI, Hap Ki Do is japanese for Aikido. Aikido is the descendant art of Daito-ryu. Daito-ryu has close ties to Itto-ryu. And there the very tenious link to a genuine sword art that a lot of McDojo use. Linda, I don't think that most budo practitioners think that at all of Koreans. The techniques I saw at the Hap Ki Do seminar were entirely functional so there's no reason to get down on your own culture and traditions. Every race has their own morons ready to start a McDojo.

Feel free folks, I've declared open season on my kieshter.

Linda Hyojung Chin
26th December 2000, 01:18
Thank you for the kind words. I guess it is a "sad fact" that there will always people such as this. Of course I am not trying to put-down my culture, but I get sad when people make false statements. We have a Korean Day festival here (in October), and there was a Tae kwon do demonstration which was great. Unfortunately, then a "master" came out and had a student hold some wooden board(s) on top of his head and proceeded to cut them (with a cheap sword) to demonstrate the "control" he possessed. Luckily, nothing came out of it, but it made me shiver. What if he failed, what if it was shinken...? Again, fortunately nothing happened. But the crowd seemed to love it, it was "exciting." :(

Anyway, going off topic, I hope everyone will have a Happy Holiday and Happy New Year.

Sincerely,
Hyojung

Nathan Scott
2nd January 2001, 20:47
Hello Ms. Chin,

Welcome to e-budo, it's nice to hear some sanity! :)

Mr. Amdur - thanks much for the laughs! That's a great story. BTW, I promise to pick up your book ASAP. I'm anxious to read it (found at: http://www.ellisamdur.com)

Mr. Lucas - thanks for the invite in regards to your kieshter. I'll try to think of something inflamatory to throw it's way!

I've found it interesting to drive by Hapkido studios and see the kanji for "Aikido" in big characters on the window. I've heard reports from people over the years who go in these dojo and are told "Oh, it's the same as Aikido", or Tae Kwon Do ("Korean Karate") is the same as Karate etc. A friend of mine that trained at a particular Kumdo (Korean Kendo) studio said that the members did not know how to tie the men-himo, so they were left tied and the head gear was simply pulled over the head when practicing! Doh.

I see your connection with "Takeda Ono-ha Itto ryu", but that was something Sokaku S. integrated and didn't seem to teach widely. I really doubt that the sword work in Hapkido or Tae Kwon Do (which is usually where you find it!) has any resemblence to Ono-ha itto ryu, or any other authentic Japanese sword art.

Howard-san - I'm looking forward to coming out to Australia. Let me know when you've secured the tickets, and I'll make sure I free up the old schedule!! (hee hee hee)

Regards,

Sheridan
3rd January 2001, 00:18
DON'T LOOK AT MY LITTLE WHITE ENGLISH BUM!


(__!__)



(Damn. Somebody actually fell for it. Sen Sen no Sen. It's like the logging industry, plant a seed only to cut it down when it ripens.) :D

Y. Z. Fahoum
6th January 2001, 07:04
Mr. Skoss,
I must say that I laughed wonderfully from your post. It's rather accurate too but I don't think we would have to go to such lengths.

"Ultimately a highly complex sentiment, having its first origin in the social instincts, largely guided by the approbation of our fellow-men, ruled by reason, self-interest, and in later times by deep religious feelings, confirmed by instruction and habit, all combined, constitute our moral sense or conscience."--C.D., The Decent of Man (1871)

The issue I see here is whether the growth of martial knowledge (in this case 'ken') since WWII has outpaced it's capacity to govern moral character at the group level. Individuals such as the crack-pot in question are suredly in it for "the money" or "the glory". Neither of which have seemed to increase the mating productivity of individuals (much less groups) within martial culture. The latter being a key ingredient to the pursuit of specific actions and cultural norms at the biological level. Thus "Darwinism".

So what does this mean for serious students? Participants my senior here are better commentators than I. However, I would like to speculate that this mire of stupidity will kill itself. Probably not before we see an even larger growth in its popularity from the current use of CGI from Hollywood. But it will. And then the samurai will again be alone, at the edge of the forest. Passing on his knowledge to disciples...just out of site...for love of the true art...survival.

aiki-zen
15th January 2003, 10:22
It is rather ironic that some of these guys get out there with a black belt in Tae Kwon Do and seem to think that it makes them a skilled martial artist with other weapons, such as the Japanese sword. I firmly agree with what Gil Gillespie was saying.

It is very important to check and make sure that the Nakago is firmly seated into the tsuka before training in Iai, Battodo or any art where the use of a sword is warranted. My Sensei places a great deal of emphasis on this so the accidents discussed here don't occur in our dojo, however, every once and a while we gets some newbie that doesn’t appreciate how dangerous a sword can be, even if it is only an Iaito.

In regards to the first post and the cutting of veggies, says nothing for the cutting ability of a blind swordsman. All that really means is that some stupid guy practiced how to cut a non-moving target off some other stupid guys’ head. The only real way to measure ones cutting ability is to cut tatami, or bamboo.

Remember, In old times skill with a sword was measured with your life, not by the color of the belt you wore. Just a thought…..
:p

Chidokan
15th January 2003, 22:55
Not all taekwondo people are bad guys. the local teacher heard I was having some problems finding a hall and asked me to use his gym until I got sorted out. He watched me for a night and then asked me to teach a class of his 5th dans to give them a better focus on their kata etc! While I was there, they had a Korean visit who specialised in the Korean sword. He was pretty good, had a decent grip, and his techniques looked like a cross between chinese sabre and japanese sword.
At least they are not like a guy I once saw who tried to cut a cabbage with clingfilm on using an iaito...the sword bounced off :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I nearly wet myself...

Tim Hamilton

aiki-zen
16th January 2003, 06:32
No worries sir. I realize that not all TKD guys are bad, but TKD along with some forms of Karate are the most commercialized. Unfortunately this leads to the “Black Belt in two years” programs that you see out there. That's my major gripe!!

(Off the original topic, but associative)

I’ve seen children that are 2nd, 3rd, and 4th degree black belts that are incapable of having the neccisary maturity to handle weapons of any kind. Further more, I don’t believe that a child or even a person under the age of 16 should be awarded such a rank, Even if they have exceptional form. Budo is as much about building character and the other benefits that follow, as it is in relationship to correct execution of technique.

I once knew a young girl that I studied Karate with. She was quit an exceptional student, but lacked the mental and physical maturity to honor such a rank accordingly. I do in some cases agree that there are exceptions to every rule, but schools that commercialize and sell rank are giving students a false sense of ability and character.
:p