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View Full Version : Weapons common koryu and ryukyuan kobudo



Bullbrand
16th September 2004, 11:48
Hello All

I was just wondering if any of the koryu study the weapons more traditionally associated with the RyuKyuan/Okinawan martials arts. I know that bo is probably the most widely practised weapon common to both, but as far as I know, the techniques are quite different. I also know the kama is practised in some koryu and also in some Okinawan kobudo.

What I am really asking thus, is wether there are any koryu that train with the sai or tonfa. Just curious really.

Regards
Louis Labuschagne

waves4ryan
17th September 2004, 01:52
In variations of some form or another, I believe you'll see some similarities. Beyond the bo in some Koryu/Kobudo, I think you'll find the jo/gusan, the single jitte/sai, manrikigusari/suruchin (quite different in length), tanbo, tekko, etc.

Liam Cognet
17th September 2004, 04:52
What about eiku(oar). Musashi seemed to have a thing for that. I don't think the weapon is included in any koryu(that I know of).

Has anyone trained in both sai and jutte? I have done sai in Shito Ryu karate but not jutte even though I'm currently training in SMR Jodo so, I don't know how similar they are.

Hey, did anyone notice that one of the ninja in The Last Samurai had a pair of sai? Rhat's up with that? Do they use sai in any kind of ninjutsu? Maybe they were karate-ninjas! Chop ya, kick ya, then vanish...

J. L. Badgley
17th September 2004, 12:18
Well, the oar, if the story is not apocryphal, was just a substitute for a sword. It was mentioned as though it was used as a sword, just that it was an oar instead.

I've only had limited exposure to sai and jutte, but from what I saw, they are VERY different. Yes, they are both small, metal weapons with prongs. Jutte only have one, and are definitely dull. Techniques are usually just the one jutte, and used to defend against a sword (they were the tool of the Edo period non-samurai police, who weren't allowed to carry swords, iirc).

The sai, on the other hand, was used 'florentine'; i.e. one in each hand. There was a lot more switching of the grip, and attacks were different. Usually kata have a lot of strikes and blocks in them, and a lot more movement. I think, though, that this is a karate v. sword art difference, really.

Regardless, they are definitely meant to be used differently.

cxt
17th September 2004, 22:03
There is a very interesting story that the headmaster of the Jigen Ryu of the Satsuma Clan was directed by his lord to develop what has been described as a sort of "home guard" or second line of defense for the provience.

This "home guard" would be made up of tradesmen, farmers, fisherman, etc.

And that he developed a number of techniques and methods using "common" items such as kama, boat oar, a few other things.

It has been suggested that some of these techniques/items "MAY" have made it into Okinawan karate from the Satasuma.

Couple of problems:

1-Interesting story, but there is no proof that it happend anything like that "really" occurred.

(at least as far as I know--maybe somebody here might have better info??? I would be really interested in hearing about it from a more direct source--maybe someone in Jigen Ryu?)

2-Hard to trace the exact point of appearence of a number of "okinawan" weapons into Okinawa itself.
But most of them are really old--could easily pre-date any contact with the Satsuma.
And they often have Chinese analogs--so its more likly that they got there from China rather than Japan.

Interesting story though.

Chris Thomas

Bullbrand
18th September 2004, 11:00
I just started thinking on the whole jutte thing after reading the post relating a possible similarity between jutte and sai. As far as I know a few of the koryu ryuha incorporate jutte training in their syllabus. I found this a bit strange as the jutte was the weapon of the non-samurai police. As most people in formal ryuha were of the samurai class why would they need to be trained in the jutte, as this is not a weapon of the samurai class.

Thus, I can only deduce that the jutte was taught so that it could be overcome, i.e. the whole "know a weapon to be able to fight against it" argument. I might be totally wrong in this assumptiuon and as I have no way of knowing wether this deduction has any merit. I was hoping someone more knowledgable can shed some light on this.

Regards

J. L. Badgley
18th September 2004, 13:52
I believe jutte was also used by the lower ranking samurai police during the Edo period for 'non-lethal' (well, less lethal) means of bringing in a suspect. I had forgotten about that when I had posted earlier.

There is a discussion of that in "Taiho-Jutsu: Law and Order in the Age of the Samurai" by Don Cunningham, although I'm not sure how reliable a source this is.

Bullbrand
18th September 2004, 18:30
Thanks for the reply, I'll check it out.

Regards

Liam Cognet
20th September 2004, 04:34
(I don't know how to use that quoting tool)
Bullbrand wrote: As most people in formal ryuha were of the samurai class why would they need to be trained in the jutte, as this is not a weapon of the samurai class.

Musashi's father was a master of the jutte, yes?

Nanban Bushi
21st September 2004, 15:44
Originally posted by J. L. Badgley

The sai, on the other hand, was used 'florentine'; i.e. one in each hand.

J.L.,

Not to be nitpicky and/or off-topic, but it should be stressed that "florentine"--which is used by the Society of Creative Anachronism (SCA) to describe the use of a sword in each hand--is not an historically valid term. I have searched high and low for a period reference to this term, and I have yet to find one.

The fact is that the use of a sword in each hand was referred to by the Italians simply as due spade ("two swords"). Giacomo di Grassi terms it as such in his Ragione di addoprar sicuramente l'arme si da offesa come da difesa of 1570. Since this fighting style was used mainly with the complex-hilted spada that eventually developed into the rapier, the English referred to the two-sword style as the "case of rapiers".

Much like the Italians, the Japanese refer to the use of a sword in each hand as nito ("two swords").

In the Philippines, where the use of two swords (or two sticks) is common amongst the Pampangans, this style is referred to either as sinawalli (lit. "woven"--a reference to the striking patterns), or as Estilo Macabebe (Macabebe being a town in Pampanga, where soldiers were recruited by both the Spanish and Americans).

Again, I wasn't trying to jack this thread--I just wanted to point out the fallacy of the "florentine" issue.

Respectfully,

David

J. L. Badgley
23rd September 2004, 01:45
Thanks. I seemed to recall that (hence the "" quotes), but was at a loss for another word at the time. Unfortunately, things like 'nito' refer to swords, and so it doesn't seem right for sai. 'With one in each hand' would probably have been better.

Honestly, I really appreciate people pointing things out like that, because I try to keep stuff like that to a minimum, when I find out.

:)

Jock Armstrong
24th September 2004, 14:14
Sinawalli is used to describe the figure of eight pattern cut in the air with two weapons. Another pattern, more like the "waterwheel" of nito technique is referred to as banda banda . Two sword, or sword and dagger is referred to [at least in Doce Pares Arnis] as "espada y daga". Their actual employment is quite different in style to Okinawan sai.
It may be that Okinawan kobujutsu tech travelled to Kyushu and not the other way around. Several peichin [bushi] are known to have studied swordsmanship while on diplomatic attachment to the Satsuma area. Bushi Matsumura was one. The Uchinadi peichin were skilled practitioners of Okinawan arts and might have contributed to the tech base.

Nanban Bushi
24th September 2004, 14:37
Originally posted by J. L. Badgley
Thanks. I seemed to recall that (hence the "" quotes), but was at a loss for another word at the time. Unfortunately, things like 'nito' refer to swords, and so it doesn't seem right for sai. 'With one in each hand' would probably have been better.

Honestly, I really appreciate people pointing things out like that, because I try to keep stuff like that to a minimum, when I find out.

:)

It's all good, bro! :)

Peace,

David

Nanban Bushi
24th September 2004, 14:45
Jock,


Originally posted by Jock Armstrong
Sinawalli is used to describe the figure of eight pattern cut in the air with two weapons.

The figure 8 is only one pattern in sinawalli, which, again, refers to double-weapon fighting in general. When specifically employing two sticks (as opposed to swords), the Spanish-derived term doble baston is sometimes used.

However, I also must confess that different FMA schools appear to be notorious for their varying (ie., inconsistent) use of terminology--a situation which has existed in European fencing styles as well.

Peace,

David

Karl Friday
28th September 2004, 17:14
Jutte were only secondarily weapons. Their primary function was as a symbol of police authority. As such they were carried by both samurai and townsmen acting as police officers. The prong on the jutte, BTW, was probably there primarily to help hold it in the officer's belt (like the clip on a ball-point pen). While some ryuha that teach jutte techniques do make use of the prong for martial applications, this is almost certainly an afterthought to the tool's design.

The jutte, therefore, has a lot less in common--in meaning, in function, and in application as a weapon--with the Okinawan sai than it does with British and American police batons.

Harry Ravelo
29th September 2004, 10:59
Hello all,

If I may put my 2 cents worth...
I believe that one of the Mugai-ryu authorities (Mugai-ryu been considered as a Koryu, mainly iaijutsu school), namely the NPO Hougyoku-kai, includes within their organisation the teaching of Hoshoryu Saijutsu.
According to them, the techniques of sai versus sword existed even before the Kingdom of Ryukyu had to undergo the laws forbidding them to carry swords. In other words, the comonly practiced sai vs jo techniques known today came AFTER the sai vs sword ones.
The Mugai-ryu curriculum transmitted by the NPO Hougyoku-kai (which dates back to late 17th century) doesn't, as far as I know, include any sai vs sword. However, wether this is pure coincidence or not, I think it is interesting that a Koryu organisation also took under their wings the transmition of Hoshoryu Saijutsu. Nothing wrong with that;)

Harry.

PS: hello to fellow South African resident, Louis Labuschagne :)

Liam Cognet
30th September 2004, 06:34
Harry,

On this page www.iai.gr.jp/en/index.html saijutsu is listed under 'karate arts'. If you read further is says that saijutsu was intoduced into the ryu by Mabuni Kenwa, the founder of Shito Ryu karate. It may be possible that saijutsu is simply part of the Shito Ryu karate which the group also practices.

This is not uncommon. The group I train with, for example, teaches SMR jo and MJER iai alsong side with Goju Ryu karate.

renfield_kuroda
30th September 2004, 14:18
Liam, you are correct. The sai arts are under the auspices of karate, a considerably smaller part of the curriculum.
Kanezawa-sensei is the main man for sai, and he is down in Yamaguchi Prefecture. Not many of us up here in the Tokyo area do sai.
We currently do shintoryu kenjutsu, isshinryu kusarigamajutsu, chuwaryu tankenjutsu, and ikkakuryu jutte/tessenjutsu.

FYI one of our instructors who is heavily involved in ryukyu arts demonstrated an oar kata -- one of the coolest things I've ever seen -- but I don't know anything more about it.

Regards,
r e n

Liam Cognet
1st October 2004, 04:12
I haven't done any sai since my shtio ryu days, but it always been one of my fav' weapons, I've always like the 'weapon in each hand type weapons' or whatever you call them. I'd love to get back into it if I could fit it into my MA schedule. Ah well.