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Undmark, Ulf
18th June 2001, 15:13
I tried asking this question in the jujutsu forum, but maybe this is where I should have started?
-------------------------------------
Hi everybody,

Am I misstaken or have two different men travelled to Edo, trained with the Yagyu family and recieved permission to name their tradition Yagyu shingan ryu? Those two men would be Araki Mataemon and Takenaga Hayato.

Are these two ryuha related somehow or just, for some reason, sharing the same name? They (in case of different traditions) seem to have somewhat similar curriculum, or I may have confused the two. Do both of them (in case of two different traditions) practise kachu kenpo and kachu yawara?

Can someone please explain this?

Regards,
Ulf Undmark

ghp
18th June 2001, 18:43
Ulf,

The last I remember reading, there are about 5 different shihan teaching similar versions of Yagyu Shingan Ryu. Perhaps the most well known is Shimazu Kenji sensei -- the one you will often see in Hiden magazine.

http://rudy.bay-ad.com/~guypower/kenshinkan/photos/shimazukenji.jpg
Just a photo op at Meiji Shrine on 3 November 1993-- I never trained with him.

Shimazu sensei wrote once that there were five separate, yet related, YSRs -- and that they are all on friendly, cooperative terms. Not an exact quote -- but that's how I remember processing the information.

Regards,
Guy

Undmark, Ulf
18th June 2001, 19:54
Hello Guy and thank you for answering!

As I remember, Shimazu sensei studied several lines of the Yagyu shingan ryu, including one called Goto ha. But as I understood it, all of them were considering Takenaga Hayato as their founder.

I've never heard of a relation between Takenaga and Araki Mataemon, who is said to have founded the YSR taijutsu taught by (I'm guessing here) Muto Masao? I'm still *very* confused.
Is Araki connected to Takenaga somehow?

Regards,
Ulf Undmark

Frans Stiene
7th February 2002, 22:43
Dear Members,

Can anyone tell me more about Yagyu Ryu as I don't know anything about it. Do you know if there is a main centre in Japan of this school and if so do they have and email or website?

Maybe some of you knwo the email or website of the Dai Nippon Buthokia, Kyoto, Japan as well.

Thanks for your time and effort

Frans

thumpanddump
8th February 2002, 06:45
Hi frans:wave:

There are 2 groups that deal with Yagyu shingan ryu
in Australia and there is a french site but I do not
know the address.

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Bench/2297/

http://www.ninja.com.au

Good luck in your search

Nathan Scott
9th February 2002, 06:51
Hello,

Asking about Yagyu ryu is pretty broad, and as Mr. Skoss says, "there is no Yagyu ryu". The Yagyu arts are more properly referred to as Yagyu shinkage ryu (kenjutsu), Yagyu shingan ryu (jujutsu) and Yagyu seigo ryu (batto).

Which were you asking about?
Regards,

Frans Stiene
9th February 2002, 10:16
Hi Nathan Scott,

Sorry, as you can see I don't know much about Martial Arts.

I am conducting a research into the history of Mikao Usui (1865-1926) who is the founder of Reiki and he was supposidly instructor in 'Yagyo Ryu' he gained 'Menkyo Kaiden' the highest licence of proficiency in weaponry and grappling but as I don't know much about this art I was wondering if someone could help me out in explaining it so I can form a better picture of Mikao usui which helps me in return to get a better knowledge of Reiki.

thanks again,

Frans Stiene

pboylan
15th February 2002, 02:07
If he gained a menkyo kaiden, than it probably wasn't in Yagyu Shingan Ryu or the Seigo Ryu stuff, since they don't give licenses that I know of. Since you describe it as grappling, it might have been Yagyu Shingan Ryu, which is primarily a taijutsu/jujutsu based style that does award licenses.

Peter Boylan

Yamantaka
15th February 2002, 11:33
Originally posted by pboylan
If he gained a menkyo kaiden, than it probably wasn't in YAGYU SHINGAN RYU or the Seigo Ryu stuff, since they DON'T give licenses that I know of. Since you describe it as grappling, it might have been YAGYU SHINGAN RYU, which is primarily a taijutsu/jujutsu based style that DOES award licenses.
Peter Boylan

YAMANTAKA : Please, Peter, no Shakespeare!;)
YSR does or doesn't give licenses?
Best :toast:

pboylan
15th February 2002, 11:49
OOPS! Sorry Ubaldo. That should read:

If he gained a menkyo kaiden, than it probably wasn't in YAGYU <b>SHINKAGE RYU</b> or the Seigo Ryu stuff, since they DON'T give licenses that I know of. Since you describe it as grappling, it might have been YAGYU SHINGAN RYU, which is primarily a taijutsu/jujutsu based style that DOES award licenses.

Peter Boylan

Frans Stiene
19th February 2002, 10:30
Hi Peter,

Thanks for that info, would you maybe know where I can check that Mikao Usui realy did his training with the YAGYU SHINGAN RYU?

Maybe there is still a school in Japan of this lineage or maybe in another way.

Thanks for the help.


Frans Stiene

pboylan
9th March 2002, 18:41
HI Frans,

Unfortunately, short of contacting every branch of Yagyu Shingan Ryu in Japan and checking with them, I don't know any way to verify what YSR training someone has received.

Peter Boylan
Mugendo Budogu LLC
Martial Arts Books, Videos & Equipment from Japan to You
http://www.budogu.com

Shin Buke
30th June 2004, 02:59
I just received word over at Sword Forum that E-budo was back online! I have to say that I'm most pleased to be able to access this excellent resource again. But, onto my quandries.

I've been doing a bit of research on Yagyu Shingan-ryu recently and I've come upon a rather interesting problem; I've come across two separate linages for Yagyu Shingan-ryu. The first (at http://www.koryu.com/guide/shingan.html) lists Araki Mataemon as the founder and Muto Masao as the current headmaster. I have seen a similar lineage (http://www.kunpooan.com/arakido/shingan-e.html) whose only difference lists Kajitsuka Yasushi as Muto Masao's successor and current headmaster of Yagyu Shingan-ryu (apparently Muto-sensei passed away in March of 2001). I have, however, found another site (http://www.txc.net.au/~hokushin/yagyushi.htm) that lists a completely different lineage for the school. The lineage starts with the founder as Takenage Hayato Kanetsugu and lists the current headmaster as Hoshi Kunio. I have seen this lineage at another site as well (couldn't find it with a quick search, should have bookmarked it) however, I tend to put my faith in Koryu.com and its official links over other sites.

My first thoughts on this subject were that perhaps one lineage referred to a "ha" of Yagyu Shingan-ryu, however, the fact that there are two different founders shoots this theory down.

In addition to this, I'm also curious about the techniques taught in the Yagyu Shingan-ryu cirriculum. Koryu.com lists taijutsu, kenjutsu, bojutsu, naginatajutsu, and iaijutsu. However, a linked site at Koryu.com (http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Dojo/1276/shingan.html) lists a much larger cirriculum. Is, perhaps, the cirriculum listed at Koryu.com the (for lack of a better term) "standard" cirriculum for Yagyu Shingan-ryu and the cirriculum listed at the latter site from Goto-ha Yagyu Shingan-ryu? Is Goto-ha Yagyu Shingan-ryu the only extant form of the ryu?

Unfortunately, as most of my books on koryu bujutsu are on loan to two of my friends, I am unable to access those for more insight on these questions.

Finally, I've not been able to find out much about Yagyu Shingan-ryu's history, development, and such. If anyone could direct me to a good source of information concerening this ryu I would be most appreciative.

Thank you! ^_^

Adreas_Varikas
25th September 2004, 13:17
Hello everyone,
I recently watched 2 vhs tapes of Yagyu Shingan Ryu and I know that Yagyu Shingan Ryu is a recpectable koryu school, but, I really couldn't understand what I was watching.

I could not imagine how one could fight this way, effectively.

Could someone share a thought on this?

Federico Calboli
25th September 2004, 20:00
Mr. Varikas,

there is a chapter devoted to why you cannot understand what is going on (most of the time) watching a koryu kata being performed in Keiko Shokon, edited by Mrs. Skoss:

http://koryu.com/store/ks3.html

In any case, and to cut the story short, the kata is there to teach the member of the ryu something, not to entertain/inform the audience.

HTH,

Federico Calboli

Paul Steadman
25th September 2004, 20:33
Hi All,

Back in 1993 I attended a seminar conducted by Shimazu Kenji-sensei of Yagyu Shingan Ryu (Chikuoasha branch) and I asked that same question of Shimazu-sensei...I was young and foolish, now I'm just foolish, anyway, Shimazu-sensei proceeded to show me the application of the waza and kata (unfortunately for me). After a couple of throws, take downs, joint locks and immobilisation holds I understood how it could be used effectively. I also learned not to ask stupid questions like that again :-)

Regards,

Paul Steadman

Adreas_Varikas
26th September 2004, 08:57
First of all many thanks for your replies.

But in case I got misunderstood,
I never implied that any martial art's kata exist for entertainment purpose only, or that an outsider/complete begginer like myself can understand the purpose, spirit and meaning of anything by watching just a video.

All I was saying is that it looked completely different than anything I have seen, and I wanted a clue.
That's all.


Again many thanks for the time spent.

Scott Harrington
27th September 2004, 01:02
I, too, had a great hoot when I first saw the Yagyu Shingan ryu (tape by Quest - quality piece.) Then they added the armor and the light bulb came on!

1) They do alot of arm 'swings' before implementing a waza (technique) - basically what if someone really holds on? So practice several 'attacks' to said grabbing arm (which would be protected by armor.) Eventually, sequentially, one will work the grip free. Then do technique.

2) Someone recently commented on the type of 'ukemi' they use, a sorta backflip. Well, It's a head drive straight down. Of course, no uke in his right mind wants to get even close to this - so sorta backflip. I call these the 'surfer' injuries. Not a competition technique - just break the neck/head/spinal cord and look for next enemy on the battlefield.

3) They did a funny little jog step drill. Well, in armor, there are alot of little plates that just love to murphy up with the guy next to you moving down the castle hallway. This drill reduces the chances of getting caught up.

4) The biggest surprise was the amount of noise that fighting in armor made. Clack Clack Clack!

5) They did this funky little 'hand to the back of the head move' before a backward roll. Of course, when they put on the kabuto (helmet) it made perfect sense as this cleared the flexible awning that protected the neck. No funky move and you break your own neck.

6) Seemed primarily (especially the basics) with moving in armor, fighting in armor, etc. As soon as you put on armor, kicks are almost eliminated, motion is restricted, more hip movement, naturally heavier, and so on.

7) More things change, the more they stay the same. As soon as we go against an opponent that wears as much body armor as good ole USA then you'll see moves like this come back into play.

8) Had an instructor once said you could date a technique by where they grabbed (if older then represented in armor.) Classic example would be the Kito-ryu kata that Kano kept in his curriculum - almost museum pieces but they still work.

Scott Harrington
www.aikitools.com

Maro
27th September 2004, 01:09
I did a Seminar with Shimazu Kenji-sensei last year.

I was fascinated by the techniques as they are totally different to the Ryu I study - especially the grappling from Seiza.

If you ever get the chance to attend a Seminar I recommend it.

Kenji Sensei is fairly short and I am quite tall - I'll always smile at the image of him Hanging off of the tip of my Bokken to illustrate the strength of my grip being imortant:D

ouch!
2nd May 2006, 04:04
Yagyu Shingan-Ryu (Japan) have recently launched a new English language website. The URL is www.arakido.org

David Kawazu-Barber

Mekugi
4th June 2006, 00:48
Here's some video of it. :)
Yagyu Shingan Ryu Heijutsu Taijutsu I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tOZ-0NXHpQ&search=Yagyu%20Shingan%20Ryu)
Yagyu Shingan Ryu Heijutsu Taijutsu II (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmgL7yktXCs&search=Yagyu%20Shingan%20Ryu)
Yagyu Shingan Ryu Heijutsu Taijutsu III (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31yM7MZjXRc&search=Yagyu%20Shingan%20Ryu)

fifthchamber
4th June 2006, 03:32
Hi Jo,
Would it be possible to ask who is teaching the seminar and who they are were taught by in Sato Sensei's groups? I looked at your website but couldn't see much associated with the Shingan Ryu and was wondering what you had managed to arrange to get the seminar up and running in the UK!
Regards.

Maro
5th June 2006, 00:31
I've done a similar Seminar here in Sydney.

I'd heartily recommend it if you have the chance to go.

ouch!
9th June 2006, 03:07
Sato Kinbei is associated with the Sendai line of YSR, known as Heiho. I believe he is also a director of the Kobudo Shinkokai (Japan Classical Budo Assoc.). The YouTube video links above, also include the title "Taijutsu" -- not to be mistaken for the Edo line of YSR, known as YSR Taijutsu, which is distinctly different in appearance.

David Kawazu-Barber

ScottUK
23rd July 2006, 11:53
Hi Jo,

Can you tell us more about Klein sensei? I didn't know he was a member of the Yagyu Shingan Ryu.

Regards,

Moriki
23rd July 2006, 19:45
Hi guys,

Here's some info on Klein Sensei here http://www.nihonbudoakademie.de/

:)

jo biggs
23rd July 2006, 20:31
I was researching old jiu jtsu and looking for a teachet to come and teach soem jiu jitsu I came across peter klein and he kindly offered to come over and teach, of course we said yes and we are bringing him over, he seems to be a nice man!! and i enclose the only info we have below, many thanks for brian for showing you his website!!!, i hadnt seen it!!!
i believe this to be his lineage
TAKENAGA Hayato (Founder)
ITO Kusaburo
KOYAMA Samon
AIZAWA Token
KATO Gonzo
HOSHI Sadakichi
TAKAHASHI Hikoyoshi
SUZUKI Heikichi
SUZUKI Sensaku
SATO Kinbei
KONO Akikazu

and here is the info on the school i was sent by peter!!!!
YAGYU SHINGAN RYU


Yagyu Shingan Ryu Heijutsu was founded in the begining of the1600`s in Japan by the martial artist called TAKENAGA Hayato
(1585-1637) from the region in Japan called Sendei.
Takenaga had learned different Bujutsu(martial arts) styles such as the Shingan Ryu and Shindo Ryu, he had also studied the Shuza Ryu and Toda Ryu,
before he refined these ideas which were the foremost princiiples which
formulated the shingan Shingan Ryu.
He moved to Edo (today Tokyo) and became a teacher to the
famous Yagyu clan.
Yagyu Muenori who watched the techniques of Takenaga and gave him the permission to use the name of the Yagyu clan for his martial arts.
Takenaga called his style afterwards Yagyu Shingan Ryu.

Yagyu Shingan Ryu is a Sogo Bujutsu (complete martial arts system)
which has weapons techniques and unarmed techniques.

The weapons of this style are Katana (sword), Wakizashi (short sword), Boshin
(dagger), Naginata (helbard) Bo (staff), Hanenejibo (short stick), Jingama
(sickle), Jutte (iron truncheon) and Tessen (fan).

In the original form the Jujutsu of this style had the following areas of study.

Suburi are the basis techniques of Kata that demonstrates defences from attack showing punches, strikes, kicks and ram techniques with the body.

HOSHI Teikishi was one of the headmasters of the school who formualetd 3 Kata with 7 combinations of techniques in each case. This Kata can be train alone or with a partner and are today the basic of all Yagyu Shingan Ryu branches.
You can watch a video clip of this at this address http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tOZ0NXHpQ&search=yagyu%20shingan%20ryu

Torite no Jutsu are techniques to arrest an enemy. This use`s Atemi and KansetsuWaza (joint locks).

Totte Jutsu are reversal techniques against joint locks or throws.

Kogusoku Totte is the training in amour. The fighter has Katana, Wakizashi and Boshin. It demonstrates the execution of techniques with the sword, and a part of the sword and throws with help of the sword.

Gyoi Dori are helpful restraints to secure a high ranking person against sword attacks.
The sword attack will be stopped and the defender brings the attacker under
control. The techniques are trained in both kneeling position, standing position
and by walking.

Today exist different branches of Yagyu Shingan Ryu with different applications of techniques and different contents.

The line of Sato Kinbei is:

Hoshi Teikishi – Takahashi Hikoyoshi – Suzuki Heikichi – Suzuki Sensoku –
Sato Kinbei – Kono Akikazu – peter klein

Sato Kinbei received in 1946 the Menkyo Kaiden in Yagyu Shingan Ryu from
Suzuki Sensaku.

The rank system is: Shoden, Chuden, Okuden

It gives no Kyu or Dan ranks.

Other info I have tracked down peter says is of a small branch line!!!

basically thats your lot folks
hopefuly if its a good seminar I and my students have lucked in andif its crap
and once again we have been fed a lot ` bull**** by a high grade on koryu ju jitsu
hopefully as he is part of I.M.A.F it will be a nice day
perhaps you might like to come to the semianr?

pls emailme jo-kan@sacrespring.org.uk as we would love to have a semianr on niten ichi ryu

ScottUK
23rd July 2006, 20:53
i believe this to be his lineage
TAKENAGA Hayato (Founder)He may represent a 'small branch line', but I am concerned that the entire lineage doesn't tie up. YSR was founded by Araki Mataemon. Perhaps Klein sensei can stop by E-Budo and fill us in on the seminar and what he will be teaching?


pls emailme jo-kan@sacrespring.org.uk as we would love to have a semianr on niten ichi ryuYou would need to speak to hombu in Japan for that. There are no menkyo practitioners in the UK.

DDATFUS
23rd July 2006, 21:21
YSR was founded by Araki Mataemon.

This isn't the first time that I've seen someone else listed as the founder of Yagyu Shingan Ryu. From what I've gleaned from various websites, the Sendai line refers to someone else, perhaps one of Araki Mataemon's first-generation students, as its founder. If you follow this link (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-28061.html) you'll see a previous e-budo thread that touches on this question.

jo biggs
23rd July 2006, 23:03
well many thanks for that!!
I spoke to steve delaney the other night and he was very informative
and he knew of this ryu in japan.

all i can say as `newbie` is this is the info we have been passed and we are having a seminar on this date!! please come along and i`m sure peter klein will answer your questions

sorry i cant do better than that??

kindest
jo

George Kohler
12th August 2006, 02:42
If you follow this link (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-28061.html) you'll see a previous e-budo thread that touches on this question.

Both have now been merged.

ouch!
26th August 2006, 15:11
After reviewing the various websites and online threads concerning the history and lineages of Yagyu Shingan-ryu, I have decided to clarify what seems to be a confusing issue.

Perhaps the most common question – Who founded Yagyu Shingan-ryu? Was it Araki Mataemon or Takenaga Hayato?

The makimono (scrolls) of the Taijutsu lineage, do accredit Araki as the founder, but this should not be taken literally. Araki died in 1634, eighty-four years before Koyama Samon was born (1718). There are therefore only two explanations for this void – either someone is missing from the puzzle [an additional headmaster or two, between Araki and Samon], or Araki holds a different significance.

It is believed in Japan, that Araki was the Spiritual Founder of the school. In other words, his combat methods and philosophy strongly influenced the direction of the style. The actual founder of the Taijutsu lineage is recognized as Koyama Samon.

So, was Hayato the founder of Shingan-ryu?

More than likely, yes – but it is difficult to say for sure.

Another question that pops-up occasionally concerns Ueshiba’s affiliation with Yagyu Shingan-ryu. What is Goto-ha Yagyu Shingan-ryu?

It is actually just another name for the Edo-line (Taijutsu) of YSR. Goto was the sixth headmaster of the Taijutsu lineage. Ueshiba studied under a shihan with direct links to Goto. The current headmaster of the so-called Goto-ha, is Kajitsuka Yasushi. Mutoh Masao passed away in 2001. Kajitsuka was his appointed heir.

So, Kajitsuka heads the Edo-line of YSR, but who heads the Sendai-line?
Is it Shimazu Kenji?

No, Hoshi Kunio (Iwate Prefecture) is headmaster of the school (Shimazu sensei was his student).


David Kawazu-Barber
Kamakura, Japan

DDATFUS
26th August 2006, 17:32
Mr. Kawazu-Barber, thanks very much for your reply. I had been wondering about that for a while. So, just to make sure that I understand you, the theory is that Takenaga Hayato founded the school, and his student (?) Koyata Samon founded the Edo branch?

As long as we are on the subject of the Yagyu Shingan Ryu, could you answer another question for me? I've been curious about where Yagyu Shingan Ryu fits into the family tree of koryu arts. Do you know what arts influenced the creation of Yagyu Shingan Ryu? Does anyone know where Hayato trained, or what arts he drew on to create his style? I've read that many of the arts that specialize in battlefield grappling are "descendants" of Takenouchi Ryu. Is this true in this case as well? Is much known about Hayato's life?

Sorry to ask so many questions, but when someone who has an inside line to the answers shows up, I just can't help trying to learn more.

fifthchamber
27th August 2006, 04:53
I don't believe there are many links with the Shingan Ryu and the Takeuchi Ryu. Not from what I have seen on this side anyway. The only possible link I can think of is the connection of Shingan Ryu with Araki Mataemon whose Araki Ryu is most certainly connected to the Takeuchi Ryu.
There are some generic similarities with the two schools but nothing that would make me think there is a more direct connection than them both being armoured grappling.
I would be interested to see the response from the Shingan Ryu side as well. If there is any more to that it would be interesting to hear it.
My regards.

DDATFUS
27th August 2006, 05:50
Thanks for the reply. I remember reading that most of the "ranged slashing" schools of swordfighting derive mainly from the Kashima, the Kage, and the Chujo traditions. Besides Takeuchi, do you know of any other major lineages of kogusoku? I'm trying to get a better idea of what the "family trees" look like.

Of course, a lot of the information that I'm after is probably in a source like the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, but given my Japanese language skills, at the moment I'm stuck pestering those who know what they are talking about. Hope y'all don't mind.

George Kohler
27th August 2006, 07:18
The only possible link I can think of is the connection of Shingan Ryu with Araki Mataemon whose Araki Ryu is most certainly connected to the Takeuchi Ryu.

Ben,

I think you are confusing Araki Mataemon with Araki Mujinsai who is a totally different person. Mataemon studied Yagyu Shinkage-ryu from the Yagyu family and a well known swordsman. Mujinsai trained in Takeuchi-ryu and founded Araki-ryu.

George Kohler
27th August 2006, 08:29
Do you know what arts influenced the creation of Yagyu Shingan Ryu? Does anyone know where Hayato trained, or what arts he drew on to create his style?

Hayato had many teachers. According to one book written by Osano Jun, he writes that Hayato studied Shinto-ryu (Ushiu Tatewaki), Shinkage-ryu "Divine Shadow" (Koshu Ryuken?), Shuza-ryu (Harakawa Jirozaemon), Toda-ryu (Toda Seigen Nyudo) and Shinkage-ryu (Yagyu Tajima no kami Munenori).

fifthchamber
27th August 2006, 10:04
Hi George,
Yes entirely. I was mistaken. In which case there are even less links there than I had guessed.
As for Kogusoku, many other ryuha have it and it is not always connected to us...Rarely in fact.
Regards.

DDATFUS
27th August 2006, 17:01
Hayato had many teachers. According to one book written by Osano Jun, he writes that Hayato studied Shinto-ryu (Ushiu Tatewaki), Shinkage-ryu "Divine Shadow" (Koshu Ryuken?), Shuza-ryu (Harakawa Jirozaemon), Toda-ryu (Toda Seigen Nyudo) and Shinkage-ryu (Yagyu Tajima no kami Munenori).

Thanks. I appreciate that those of you who can actually look at the sources are so willing to help.



As for Kogusoku, many other ryuha have it and it is not always connected to us...Rarely in fact.

Thanks. There goes another of my many misconceptions.

ouch!
28th August 2006, 07:43
I had been wondering about that for a while. So, just to make sure that I understand you, the theory is that Takenaga Hayato founded the school, and his student (?) Koyata Samon founded the Edo branch?

It depends who you ask. If you asked headmaster Hoshi, he would list the heiho's headmaster lineage like this:

Takenaga Hayato
Yoshikawa Ichirohzaemon
Itoh Kyuzaburo
Koyama Samon
(etc.)

If you asked Shimazu Kenji the same question, he would say:

Ushiu Tatewaki
Koshiu Kamotsu Doho Ryuken
Harakawa Jiro Zaemon Mesanobu
Toda Seigen Nyudo Fujishige
Yagyu Tajima no Kami Munenori
Takenaga Hayato
Yoshikawa Ichirohzaemon
Itoh Kyuzaburo
Koyama Samon
(etc.)


David Kawazu-Barber

George Kohler
28th August 2006, 08:02
It depends who you ask. If you asked headmaster Hoshi, he would list the heiho's headmaster lineage like this:

Takenaga Hayato
Yoshikawa Ichirohzaemon
Itoh Kyuzaburo
Koyama Samon
(etc.)

If you asked Shimazu Kenji the same question, he would say:

Ushiu Tatewaki
Koshiu Kamotsu Doho Ryuken
Harakawa Jiro Zaemon Mesanobu
Toda Seigen Nyudo Fujishige
Yagyu Tajima no Kami Munenori
Takenaga Hayato
Yoshikawa Ichirohzaemon
Itoh Kyuzaburo
Koyama Samon
(etc.)


David Kawazu-Barber
Shimazu Kenji would probably agree with Hoshi since all of the first five people you had listed are actually the teachers of Takenaga Hayato.

ouch!
28th August 2006, 13:33
Shimazu Kenji would probably agree with Hoshi since all of the first five people you had listed are actually the teachers of Takenaga Hayato.

Mr. Kohler, you're absolutely right. If I had read your earlier post a little more carefully, I would have caught on to this. The lineage chart I was given by Shimazu sensei's group, lists the five teachers in descending order as part of the headmaster lineage.

It all makes perfect sense.

Best Wishes

DKB

ouch!
28th August 2006, 14:15
Hayato had many teachers. According to one book written by Osano Jun, he writes that Hayato studied Shinto-ryu (Ushiu Tatewaki), Shinkage-ryu "Divine Shadow" (Koshu Ryuken?), Shuza-ryu (Harakawa Jirozaemon), Toda-ryu (Toda Seigen Nyudo) and Shinkage-ryu (Yagyu Tajima no kami Munenori).

Question regarding Ushiu and Yagyu. You have them both listed as teachers of Shinkage-ryu. What was their relationship, if any? Did Hayato study the same art from both of them?

David Kawazu-Barber

ouch!
28th August 2006, 15:03
Above question should read Koshiu (Ryoken) and Yagyu -- not Ushiu. Similar names... sorry!

DKB

George Kohler
28th August 2006, 18:32
Above question should read Koshiu (Ryoken) and Yagyu -- not Ushiu. Similar names... sorry!

DKB
I am not that familiar with the Shinkage-ryu lineages, but in the book metioned above the kanji for both were different. One was called "Divine Shadow" and the other was called "New Shadow." Also, the kanji used for "shadow" were both different.

Sorry, for not being able to answer your question.

DDATFUS
28th August 2006, 22:50
I am not that familiar with the Shinkage-ryu lineages, but in the book metioned above the kanji for both were different. One was called "Divine Shadow" and the other was called "New Shadow." Also, the kanji used for "shadow" were both different.

Dr. Friday discusses the different ways of rendering "Shinkage" in one of his books. According to him, Kamiizumi used several different sets of characters to write "Shinkage" at various times, occasionally using shin/new, shin/sincere, shin/divine, kage/silhouette, kage/indebtedness. (Legacies of the Sword, 29-33). He also lists a number of different students of Kamiizumi who started their own schools, at least a couple of whom used the "Shinkage" name, but he doesn't include the kanji, so I can't tell which (if any) of them adopted some of the other variations. I don't see the name Koshu or Ryuken anywhere on the family tree that Dr. Friday provides, but the tree does not go past the name of the founder in the case of many of the branches. Or the name could just be staring me right in the face and I'm missing it.

fifthchamber
29th August 2006, 00:51
Hmm..Lemme see..
新陰流 The "basic" one. (Used by the Yagyu Family line).
神影流 Possibly the one George is referencing.
真陰流 Another variation. Same pronounciation.
心蔭流 And the last...So basically use any combination of the above characters to get the same name..3 ways of saying "Kage" and many ways of using "Shin"..
I'll look again tonight if I remember for Koshu Ryoken in the Shinkage Ryu lines listed in the Daijiten. There are many, many lines shown though..
Is Koshu 湖州? Or some other name? 甲州?広州? 7
Regards.

ouch!
29th August 2006, 13:12
Shimazu Kenji would probably agree with Hoshi since all of the first five people you had listed are actually the teachers of Takenaga Hayato.

I just came across this post on another e-budo thread:

"Mr. Draeger, in 'Classical Budo', wrote on page 109: 'Ushu Tatewaki founded what would become the Yagyu Shingan Ryu in pre-Edo times. Some generations of headmasters later, in the Edo period, when Takenaga Naoto received official permission from Yagyu Tajima no Kami to name his ryu the Yagyu Shingan Ryu, the martial curriculum was changed."

This seems to correspond with Shimazu's lineage chart. Any thoughts?

ouch!
29th August 2006, 13:31
"Mr. Draeger, in 'Classical Budo', wrote on page 109: 'Ushu Tatewaki founded what would become the Yagyu Shingan Ryu in pre-Edo times. Some generations of headmasters later, in the Edo period, when Takenaga Naoto received official permission from Yagyu Tajima no Kami to name his ryu the Yagyu Shingan Ryu, the martial curriculum was changed."

Does anyone have any time-line on these guys:

Ushiu Tatewaki
Koshiu Kamotsu Doho Ryuken
Harakawa Jiro Zaemon Mesanobu
Toda Seigen Nyudo Fujishige

Hayato was born 1585 and died 1637. Assuming they were his teachers, they would have all lived during his lifetime. If they were preceding headmasters as suggested above, they would have lived in different periods (perhaps).

George Kohler
29th August 2006, 17:33
I just came across this post on another e-budo thread:

"Mr. Draeger, in 'Classical Budo', wrote on page 109: 'Ushu Tatewaki founded what would become the Yagyu Shingan Ryu in pre-Edo times. Some generations of headmasters later, in the Edo period, when Takenaga Naoto received official permission from Yagyu Tajima no Kami to name his ryu the Yagyu Shingan Ryu, the martial curriculum was changed."

This seems to correspond with Shimazu's lineage chart. Any thoughts?

I have heard that Ushiu founded the school Shingan-ryu, but his student changed it so much that the name was changed to Yagyu Shingan-ryu. I have not heard any of the others teachers training under Ushui.

ouch!
30th August 2006, 06:07
Does anyone have any time-line on these guys:

Ushiu Tatewaki
Koshiu Kamotsu Doho Ryuken
Harakawa Jiro Zaemon Mesanobu
Toda Seigen Nyudo Fujishige


This is what I've been able to gather so far. I think it is already clear that Toda could not have been Hayato's teacher, as he died when Hayato was 5. If someone can provide dates for the other names on the list, we may be able to crack this. I'm guessing that Draeger was probably right, and that these guys are the headmasters in question. Let's find out.

Toda Seigen Nyudo Fujishige 1519-1590
Yagyu Munenori 1571-1646
Takenaga Hayato 1585-1637

ouch!
31st August 2006, 15:53
Hayato had many teachers. According to one book written by Osano Jun, he writes that Hayato studied Shinto-ryu (Ushiu Tatewaki), Shinkage-ryu "Divine Shadow" (Koshu Ryuken?), Shuza-ryu (Harakawa Jirozaemon), Toda-ryu (Toda Seigen Nyudo) and Shinkage-ryu (Yagyu Tajima no kami Munenori).

OK. I have just finished cross-referencing all of this with Phil Hinshelwood in Australia and also my contacts here in japan. I think it is safe to say that Hayato founded Yagyu Shingan-ryu. As George noted earlier in this thread, he received instruction from all of the chaps above (refer to quote). It was Ushiu Tatewaki's Shindo-ryu 神道流, that influenced Hayato the most. Araki Mataemon was slightly younger than Hayato, but both were born and died just a few years apart. Whether, the two actually knew each other is unknown. In the Taijutsu lineage (Edo-line), Araki is considered the spiritual father of YSR -- his name appearing on the makimono (ancient scrolls).

ouch!
3rd September 2006, 15:17
I got caught-up in a lengthy discussion today with senior instructors of the Edo-line, concerning the founder of YSR. As you all know, there are two distinct lines of YSR, Sendai (Heiho) and Edo (Taijutsu). There are a number of splinter-groups (all from the Heiho side). The Heiho claims that the founder of YSR was Takenaga Hayato, and Taijutsu claims it was Araki Mataemon. Both Takenaga and Araki, trained under Yagyu Munenori and were masters of the sword. To the best of my knowledge, the makimono (scrolls) in the possession of both branches do not date back to the foundation. In other words, they were written in last two or three hundred years. Now, as I have said in previous posts, Araki holds a spiritual reverence within the Taijutsu lineage. Whether Araki was the actual founder, or not, is unknown. Most sources would say that Takenaga was the founder, but that is largely because there are half-a-dozen splinter groups, all of which, are Sendai-line. I personally, opt for the Takenaga Hayato claim, simply out of convenience. The convenience being, that the headmaster lineage is complete (no void -- as exists in the scrolls of the Edo-line). But, who am I to say. As stated earlier, records on hand were written well after the foundation. It is therefore possible that information was lost -- perhaps the name of the headmaster that succeeded Araki (filling the void).