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Duke343
7th November 2000, 19:47
I wish that someone would send this to the judo-l list, as I have quit. Both Massad Ayoob's AND Gunsite's responses are here.

Dear Duke:
DEFINITELY do not attempt this with a functional firearm!!!

Paintball or Simunitions guns will work better, but insist that full
protective gear be worn. Contact your nearest police academy. They will
have this stuff and would probably be interested enough to bring the
equipment to participate in your training.

Good luck. Be safe. NEVER do this with a functional firearm, or a live
cartridge WILL somehow get into the gun and tragedy will result.

Cordially,
Massad Ayoob
----- Original Message -----
From: Duke Lewis <duke343@hotmail.com>
To: <ayoob@attglobal.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 12:22 PM
Subject: Real Guns in Hand to Hand Training?


> Dear Mr Ayoob,
>
> I am a martial arts instructor and a question involving firearms has
> surfaced. You are the most widely recognized firearms authority in the
> world, no one is more qualified than you to answer it.
>
> In Kodokan Judo there are 3 handgun take-aways that are taught, I
> learned them from a 6th dan (degree) from Japan. My teacher says that they
> are very dangerous and not to try them for real.
>
> In a debate on the judo-l newsgroup, The conversation turned from
"are
> they effective" to "lets try them with a real handgun (unloaded)". I have
> had a moderate amount of firearms training (I would LOVE to make it out to
> you someday!) and adamantly opposed this idea. I contended that they can
be
> tested with a paintball gun or something similar. We were then lead to
> believe that training of this type is commonplace. I checked with local
law
> enforcement who said it was probably illegal. Still people seem to think
> this type of training is proper.
>
> Do you train or have you heard of this type of training with a real
> handgun?
> What is your opinion of this practice?
>
> Yours truly,
>
> Duke Lewis
> ----------------------------------------------------------

Hi Duke,
Thanks for your message. We do conduct several Close Quarter Tactics
programs a year that integrate firearms, edged weapons, impact weapons, and
hands at contact distances. We do not use live firearms in the hand to hand
formats - there is just too much risk at something going wrong with live
guns. We use realistic replicas for all disarming, retention, and so forth.
Live fire and firearms are reserved for and restricted to the range portions
of the training (which is extensive).
Hope this helps. Good luck and train hard!
Chris Dwiggins
----- Original Message -----
From: Duke Lewis <duke343@hotmail.com>
To: <training@gunsite.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:00 AM
Subject: Real Guns in Hand to Hand Training?


> Dear sirs,
>
> I am a martial arts instructor and a question involving firearms has
> surfaced. As you are one of the best firearms training facilities in the
> world, no one is more qualified than you to answer it.
>
> In Kodokan Judo there are 3 handgun take-aways that are taught, I
> learned them from a 6th dan (degree) from Japan. My teacher says that they
> are very dangerous and not to try them for real.
>
> In a debate on the judo-l newsgroup, The conversation turned from
"are
> they effective" to "lets try them with a real handgun (unloaded)". I have
> had a moderate amount of firearms training (I would LOVE to make it out to
> you someday!) and adamantly opposed this idea. I contended that they can
be
> tested with a paintball gun or something similar. We were then lead to
> believe that training of this type is commonplace. I checked with local
law
> enforcement who said it was probably illegal. Still people seem to think
> this type of training is proper.
>
> Do you train or have you heard of this type of training with a real
> handgun?
> What is your opinion of this practice?
>
> Yours truly,
>
> Duke Lewis
>

MarkF
8th November 2000, 06:54
Mr. Lewis, Welcome to E-budo!:wave:

What exactly was your reason for quitting the Judo-L list, if you don't mind the question?

I use weighted plastic when teaching take aways, and also a starter's pistol. I too, think it is much too dangerous to use the real thing, unloaded or otherwise.

I have posted a time or two on the judo-l, but I just don't have the time these days. I know of Steve Cunningham, and Mr. Ayoob, but what exactly is the problem?

Anyone here train in these techniques (goshin jutsu)? If so, what do you use when training, replicas or the real thing unloaded?

Mark

IMO, all weaponry, gun, sword, knives, etc., are just too dangerous, but I have been interested in learning more of the sword defenses, but this is only for historical perspective. Also, H2H is just that, no gun, no weapon. If there is a gun invvolved, it ceases to be hand to hand, but hand to gun.

Any other opinions on the subject?

Mark

Duke343
8th November 2000, 08:22
A fellow judoka wanted to "get away" from purely competition related training so I suggested Goshinjutsu no kata for self defense. People responded that Goshinjutsu was not effective for self defense (although the Kodokan seems to think it is, hence the name). It turns out that they mostly have been learning from a book or video. They pointed out that the gun defenses are not effective (not true) and should be tested. Some suggested that one should use a real firearm to test this. Now they argue that people can and do use real firearms to train in gun take aways. I no longer want to argue about effectiveness but to keep judoka from being SHOT in training. In the spirit of mutual benefit I contacted Ayoob, Gunsite, and The Kodokan for guidance. The Kodokan has not responded yet but the others have. My sempai has instructed me to stop the argument and I left the Judo-l list. Since I recieved replys from Ayoob and Gunsite I wanted to pass the info along. My only concern now is that no one is shot because of my suggestion, as there are a lot of impressionable people out there. People who misinform, and self appointed "experts", are the bane of these lists as anyone with an opinion can equally voice it, without supporting evidence, to anyone who will listen.

Duke

Neil Hawkins
8th November 2000, 08:47
I usually use plastic or replica guns, but have on occasion used a water pistol filled with a non-permanent dye. Wear your oldest white gi (just in case! :)) and then try and shoot each other.

It is really amazing how hard it is to disarm someone who a) knows how to use the weapon, and b) is waiting for something to happen.

I always say that the firearm MUST be touching your body before disarming. Even the slightest gap and it is possible to counter, you may get away with it on the street when they aren't expecting it, but think of the alternatives! I recently spoke to some guys who had trained in Close Personal Protection (Bodyguards) who said that their training taught them to pull the weapon into themselves (they are wearing body armour, all the time) and smother it whilst taking the guy down. Different perspective, don't know if I'd like to do it, but it may work!

Regards

Neil

efb8th
8th November 2000, 11:10
Hi, All.

If you were training to take away hand grenades, would you use the real thing? Not only no, but HELL NO! Then why would you disrespect the power of a firearm simply because it has the potential to kill only one or two practitioners (or bystanders) at a time? Even when working with replicas, I 1)Keep them under lock and key and 2) Check them EACH AND EVERY TIME to assure both parties that they are safe and functionally disabled before practice.

Eastern and western wisdom agree on the following point: DON'T BE A FOOL; IT'S NOT GOOD FOR YOUR HEALTH!

Regards,

MarkF
8th November 2000, 13:05
Hi Duke,
A little business. Please post your full name when posting. It is policy here, and you can congifure the signature function in your profile.

Books have value in learning, but they were never meant as the whole part; only as a tool.

Kodokan goshin jutsu is taught exactly like that, but it all depends on the line or direction of the gun. Yes, you can smother it (maybe), Neil, but it would seem the gun goes off much more easily if it is against the body. But this depends on how centered the gun is on the body. Once a gun is drawn the intent is real, so there isn't much you can do, but Kodokan goshin jutsu does have realistic take-aways, and they do work well. There is also "the line of fire" thing which is obvious in the kata.

Oh, Yes, what Ed said. Mine are kept at home, and aren't available, but most are plastic, like a water pistol, but I put some weight in them to make them feel a bit more like the real thing. I started by using a starter's pistol, but that can cause some real damage. Besides, mydojo is at a public school.

Duke,
don't worry about it. It woudn't be your fault. Besides, there will always be the odd banana. Believe me, no one is going to find out the hard way how to defend a gun just because you mentioned it. They all ready had the intent to do it, and would only be coincidental if someone was stupid enough to try it.

Did I say welcome to E-budo?:wave:

Mark

Mushin
8th November 2000, 14:14
Hello All

In recent years we have started incorporating Goshin Jitsu into our ju jitsu syllabus. Its a good way of getting beginners to learn some of the "self defence" stuff without having to do huge breakfalls from throws.

As far as the 3 gun techniques go, I think the scenario is that perp is holding you at bay while he feels for your wallet (not too realistic, granted). However, the technique would appear to be that of 1. avoidance 2. disarm. Undoubtedly dangerous with real weapons, not least because uke's finger gets caught in the tigger guard and gets broken.

As with kata generally you are learning techniques, timing, partnered collaboration. That doesn't mean it is training for the street. Try it with water pistols for realism!

We have the kodokan-produced video of goshin jitsu and kime no kata performed by 7th and 8th dans. The sword techniques in kime not kata were abysmal. Judo people are good at lots of things, but its a shame that at that level they haven't learned basic distance in sword work.

have a nice 'un

Duke343
8th November 2000, 19:34
Mark,

I'm not going to sit up at night worrying about it, what people (who I don't know) do doesn't REALLY effect my corner of the world. I would hate to see someone get hurt, of course, so I did every thing in my power to stop it. Now that I have, I will assume my position as LURKER.

I'm thankful for the warm welcome.

Duke Lewis

Brian Griffin
8th November 2000, 21:55
Dear Mr. Lewis,

I'm sorry you decided to unsubscribe from Judo-L. The discussions there can sometimes be vigorous, but are almost always well-mannered. I realize this topic was talked to death there recently, but many on e-Budo weren't privy to that discussion.


Originally posted by Duke343

...People responded that Goshinjutsu was not effective for self defense (although the Kodokan seems to think it is, hence the name).


As I recall, only the handgun disarms were questioned. While much of Kodokan's kata syllabus is based on older techniques that would have been tested and refined over the centuries, in battle, the same cannot be said of the firearms techniques. Handguns were, and remain, relatively rare in Japan. Some pointed to certain photo sequences in "Kodokan Judo" in which Tori appears to move the pistol barrel across his own body. It was suggested that the gun techniques may have been adaptations of knife techniques, rather than being based on extensive experience with firearms. Discussion and debate ensued, and was quite informative (as usual).




...They pointed out that the gun defenses are not effective (not true) and should be tested. Some suggested that one should use a real firearm to test this.


This seriously mischaracterizes the Judo-L discussion. No one suggested testing the effectiveness with a real firearm.

There were at least two separate issues under discussion which you appear to have concatenated in your inquiry posted above. I believe this may have caused a bit of misunderstanding.

One topic was the issue of reaction time in handgun disarms. Some maintained the disarm could only be done if Uke's attention were distracted, as in attempting to go through Tori's pockets. Others maintained there is sufficient reaction lag to permit the disarm to succeed, even in the absence of a distraction, as long as Tori initiates the action. Some methods of testing the reaction lag were suggested, including paintball guns, or just pointing & saying "bang." Mr. Ayoob appears to be addressing this issue when he suggests Simunitions & full body armor.

A separate topic was the use of real, but unloaded, firearms during training. Some objected on the grounds of safety, while others maintained it could be done safely if proper precautions were observed, and that it's preferable to practice gun disarms on a gun, than on a piece of wood.
Some tragic examples were cited of people shot accidentally in training when live ammo got into a firearm by mistake. The situations all involved live ammo being present sdie-by-side with blank or inert munitions, in the same environment, by the same people. The response from GunSite indicates their awareness of the potential for this type of tragedy in an institution like theirs, where live fire is going on in one part of the facility, while gun disarms are practiced in another part. They can't afford to let weapons or ammo get mixed up, hence their very sensible policy. This is an issue in Law Enforcement training since they deal with people who go armed habitually; it's not an issue for most Judo Clubs since live fire is not usually permitted in randori.




...Now they argue that people can and do use real firearms to train in gun take aways.


The statement is true. People can and do use real firearms to train in gun take aways. Not much to argue.




...In the spirit of mutual benefit I contacted Ayoob, Gunsite, and The Kodokan for guidance. The Kodokan has not responded yet but the others have.


Since firearms are, by and large, illegal in Japan, it's unlikely that they are used for kata at the Kodokan. I'm glad you are motivated by Mutual Welfara and Benefit. Some might think you were merely being argumentative :)




...People who misinform, and self appointed "experts", are the bane of these lists as anyone with an opinion can equally voice it, without supporting evidence, to anyone who will listen.


Like the guy who asserted that anyone practicing disarms with an unloaded weapon was breaking the law & subject to arrest?

efb8th
9th November 2000, 05:49
Just a follow-on:

If, for whatever reason, you do use a real gun in practice, never EVER use an officer's actual service arm. My Sensei saw the efects of such a mistake in training which caused a hesitation on the part of an officer who nearly lost his life because of it. The relationship between an armed officer and his weapon must never be compromised. The psychological cost can be devastating.

Regards,

MarkF
9th November 2000, 09:53
Originally posted by Duke343:


People who misinform, and self appointed "experts", are the bane of these lists as anyone with an opinion can equally voice it, without supporting evidence, to anyone who will listen.


Quite true, as I have found the majority are gun owners, afraid of any form of gun control, and where there is techique to learn to defend the gun, the real thing is used much more often than the water pistol/replica thing. Replicas (exact) are not much better. I know POs who, when tech advisors on TV cop shows, have been approached by a uniform going by on patrol who stop, and using their service arms, have detained them, not believing anything of the testimony of the crew. Though this is a far cry, it can happen anywhere, thus my agreement with Duke.

I am a gun owner, but my only hand-gun is a single action longcolt 45. I have never shot at a living thing, only tin and paper.

Duke,
I hope you "DELURK" now and then to add to the forum. I'm sure there are issues which you would like to address and everyone is welcome. This is a message board, but not exacly a "list" as in Judo-L.

Regards,

Mark

Mushin
9th November 2000, 11:28
Is the Judo Forum going to dissolve into one of those long running "gun threads"? :nono: I do hope not. Why not have a "gun control" forum and let them carry on there?

Jack B
9th November 2000, 20:14
Originally posted by Mushin
As far as the 3 gun techniques go, I think the scenario is that perp is holding you at bay while he feels for your wallet (not too realistic, granted). However, the technique would appear to be that of 1. avoidance 2. disarm. Undoubtedly dangerous with real weapons, not least because uke's finger gets caught in the tigger guard and gets broken.


I attended several seminars on KGJ no kata, and it was emphasized that the key element was a momentary loss of focus by the 'perp'. First surrender with your hands up, follow instructions, offer your wallet if asked, etc. IFF there is a chance distraction, lapse in intent, etc, you MAY have an opportunity to do the takeaway. This is something you must feel after practicing a lot. If the attacker is focused on you and ready to shoot, "don't be stupid." These are opportunistic techniques.



As with kata generally you are learning techniques, timing, partnered collaboration. That doesn't mean it is training for the street. Try it with water pistols for realism!


Well, KGJ *is* self-defense examples. It was designed to offer more (jujutsu/aikido-based) possibilities to judo people for the expressed purpose of street survival. In Japan. In the fifties. (FWIW)

Along the same vein, one of my Arnis friends laughed when he saw the knife defenses in the Tomiki aikido katas. They don't match the slash-your-way-through-defenses style of the filipino knife fighters or SEALs (the Japanese-style knife attacks are very much go-for-broke stabs).



We have the kodokan-produced video of goshin jitsu and kime no kata performed by 7th and 8th dans. The sword techniques in kime not kata were abysmal. Judo people are good at lots of things, but its a shame that at that level they haven't learned basic distance in sword work.


It is surprising that they couldn't find someone with enough cross-training to present a viable demonstration. Is it possible that they altered the techniques for training purposes (granted that should not affect distance, just timing)? Or the techniques might have been changed for safety?

Jack Bieler

Duke343
9th November 2000, 20:59
"Every time I try to get out...they keep dragging me back in."--Godfather #3

So, Brian,

It sounds like, through skewed logic, you want to go against the recommendations of the most knowledgeable firearms experts in the land, and use real firearms("unloaded"). Do you think this is smart, would you like for your kids to practice like this?

That debate was a JOKE. The "geniuses" who want to use a real gun are the same ones who doubt the teachings of the Kodokan. The fact is they are not QUALIFIED to make any judgements other than give their opinion (which, as it turns out was WRONG).

"No one suggested testing the effectiveness with a real firearm" is false. The archives are at listquest.com, look for author: mekugi.

Every statement I make is supported, backed up, or qualified. If I don't know.... I contact an expert and find out. If you disagree with what the expert has to say, you are WRONG. So the next time some one wants to lecture on a subject lets hear a reference, otherwise I must assume it is an opinion.

"The statement is true. People can and do use real firearms to train in gun take aways. Not much to argue"
The stupid ones, maybe.... Who says so? Massad Ayoob. If you know of a firearms expert who says differently, let me know who it is
so I can contact them, not just "I heard from some guy in the Army".

"Since firearms are, by and large, illegal in Japan, it's unlikely that they are used for kata at the Kodokan. I'm glad you are motivated by Mutual Welfara and Benefit. Some might think you were merely being argumentative "
What brilliant prose, smarty. I know 1st hand, for a fact, that they do not use a real gun in kata. It's not just that guns are scarce, IT'S STUPID TO PLAY WITH GUNS.

BTW Did you send the original message to judo-l?

It amazes me that, amongst "educated" people, that this debate is still going on. Common sense! Have these people learned nothing from martial arts?

I expected to get intellectually stimulating philosophic debates pertaining to martial arts, not "Hey, lets use real guns and we can be just like cowboys, them there old guys don't know nuthin'"

"Do not do anything useless" Miyamoto Musashi.
Would Musashi argue with the village idiot? I doubt it.
This is wasting my time.

Duke Lewis

MarkF
10th November 2000, 08:21
Since the topic post concerened Kodokan goshin jutsu gun avoidance/take aways, as a participant I see no problem. As the moderator, as long as the discussion is not a debate about guns, but a debate on the issue of Kodokan goshin jutsu no kata, and the use of guns in kata or self defense techiques, I have no problems with anything so far.

Thread drift is a normal direction for any topic. This one is no different. As long as the few forum rules are followed (the can be found at the bottom and top of most pages), this will continue as long as personal attacks don't get, well, personal.

That said, I will address one point here.


We have the kodokan-produced video of goshin jitsu and kime no kata performed by 7th and 8th dans. The sword techniques in kime not kata were abysmal. Judo people are good at lots of things, but its a shame that at that level they haven't learned basic distance in sword work.


How were the techniques "abysmal?" Also, are the sword techniques referred to, those which are the go no sen variety (blocking/countering)? Is it the defense against the sword which is bad, or the handling by the attacker of the sword, itself? Also, how old is the tape, and were those involved trained in this portion of kime no kata? Seventh and eighth dans does not mean automatic mastery of anything. Instead, it usually comes with time, and reasons for time in training or honorary grades, is as individual as the kata, itself. Many have gotten by, and made it to that level by repaying a debt to the teachings of the Kodokan, that they maybe because of randori, randori no kata, goshin jutsu no kata, or kime no kata matters not. I've found that students are many times far more knowledgable than some "master." That means the teacher was one who wished to make his/her students better than said teacher

Abysmal? Well, it just may be. Then again, it just is what it is.:smokin:


Prof. Kano taught decidedly more sword defense than is published by the Kodokan, and if one does just a bit of reasearch, these techniques can be found in old photos, descriptions, etc., in many texts. I don't have many, but since the kata are designed to "protect" one from a sword attack while empty handed. It matters not that the technique by the sword-wielder is not perfect. The point is defense. This is the oldest of the go no sen techniques (other than those of ko shiki no kata), and mostly, are practiced by women (most were designed with women in mind) and kata coaches/teachers, so it should be reserved to comments such as pragmatic or practical, especially something which was made for video tape. I've seen live demos by some of the elders of Kodokan kime no kata, and these were just great.

Ms. Keiko Fukuda may know more about this, and I would think, as a woman and kata practioner, she would be one I would chose to ask. In the US, these kata are rarely practiced today, but there are still some dinosaurs out there.:look:

As to real guns, I agree that short-sightedness is the real reason some are willing to take life so cheaply. If you are going to use firearms to practice, teach, or for other reasons, to learn these kata, then someone surely will get hurt. This is much different than an argument as to faulty empty hand tai jutsu techniques not being realistic.

Since we don't practice kansetsu waza by breaking arms, or shimewaza by constantly knocking out a pracitice partner repeatedly, it should be no surprise that NOT using real guns, loaded or otherwise, is just a big, fat risk, something I don't see insurance covering, to say the least.

"Mutual Welfare" is a bedrock principle of judo. The argument is not so much one which is pro/anti gun, as it is simple logic.

An opinion, FWIW.

Mark

Neil Hawkins
10th November 2000, 22:14
Sorry Mark but I have to slightly disagree with you on this point:

"It matters not that the technique by the sword-wielder is not perfect. The point is defense."

To give good defense, a good attack is essential. Otherwise how do you know that the defense will work? In training, learning is two sided so the judoka with the sword learns how two wield it effectively, whilst the defender learns how to avoid it, both sides must be taught and examined. However in any demostration, especially one that may be viewed by exponents of other arts everything must be perfect, anything less will invite the sort of comments above.

I have not seen the video in question, but have seen many others put together by aikidoka of some renown where even I with my limited experience thought the swordwork was terrible. There was some awsome displays of skill by some though, so I wonder why this was never corrected in the dojo.

Poor attack robs the defender, it also instills a false sense of security that may lead him to fail when confronted by someone that will attack well. (I know I've been there :))

Regards

Neil

MarkF
11th November 2000, 10:30
Hi, Neil,
I'm not sure how to take what you said, and I may have not been clear, either, but yes, of course any kata should be done correctly. If you watch those doing kata in front of the jo-seki, then yes, it is going to be correctly done, as it needs to be done well.

However, the attack is not the point, the defense of the attack is. Possibly this is what I should have said. I do teach kata, but I am a far cry from those who study it with the intent to do it right, not to do it in a somewhat practical or pragamtic way. For Example: unsheath and step foreword, and slash. This while tori steps to block, catch, or block and step away, possibly then using hara-gatame. This is how I may do it, and the defense may work well. However, there are, off the top of my head, six to eight defenses of that one directional slash. The point is not to perform for a jo-seki, but to just do that which feels naturally correct. A diagonal cut brings in more intrinsic defense, but hear again, the point is not the perfection of the cut (of course there is some study to be done in respect to the answer by tori, and this too, takes practice).

Nuki kake is probably most important, as there is a real swing in which technique used to defend, as one may well fear for the worse if that sword does make it out all the way, but again, the importance of kata is there, just not to the point of worrying that uke's technique wasn't perfect.

Now, all that said, here is a sample of Kodokan Kata in response to that kirioroshi:

1)Face each other about 2.4 meters away.


2)Partner steps forward (notice the absence of the term uke here) with the right foot and slowly draws the sword. The tip is held at seigen.

3) He comes forward using tsubi-ashi, then you step back backward, beginning with the left foot (or same side foot)

4)Your partner raises the sword high into the jodan position.

5)He then "shouts", steps forward with his right foot, and slashes, attempting to hit the top of your head.

6)Dodge your partner by stepping to the left front corner and begin turning right.

7)Place your right hand on his right wrist.

8) Pull the wrist to your right hip, forcing him down toward the right front corner.

9)Reaching around his neck with the left hand, you grab the right lapel of the dogi. While you apply the choke, step twice forward, right foot first, then left.

10)Then step forward once more applying hara-gatame.

This is where I stop, although I do think at least part of the sword should be grabbed, as well as the wrist. After this is done, what could possibly be the reason for both to step back into ma-ai position, or your starting positions? Granted, even the best kata men/women in the world may do this, but this is simply not needed, nor recommended.

So while uke needs to be on que, the technique is of little importance, but the basic moves should be.

I think this is what some call bad, or "abysal" technique, but really, the lesson is in defense, never in offense. While it is outmoded, uke need only do what is expected, and not which is absolutely correct.

"Polite partnering" is nice, but since most sword techniques are down against the empty hand, what would the proper technique, beyond this, be?

None of my classes are kata classes, but there is kata in my class. That isn't to say I am preparing to "perform," I just want the student (and myself) to come out alive.

Then again, a Thompson repeating rifle usually makes quick work of the "swordmaster.":shot:

Mark

Duke343
11th November 2000, 19:52
Mark,

How did you get the animated message icons to appear in the text?

Duke Lewis

Joseph Svinth
12th November 2000, 08:08
Duke -- Look lower right on the screen, and you'll see a "Smilies guide". Colon right parenthesis, for example, gives you this: :)

Have fun!

MarkF
12th November 2000, 08:09
Hi, Duke,:wave:
When you click on a thread, there is a "smilies guide" at the bottom. Click there, and it will show which code to use for the approriate smilie. Also, when you click to post a new thread or a reply, on the page where you write your post, the smilie guide link is toward the top of the page, just under the forum rules (on the left side of the pages).

For example, to get the one in which one "shoots" another, you would use a colon and the word shot, and another colon, with no spacing, for just the smile, it would be ":" and ")" next to each other. To get :saw: , a ":" then the word "saw" then ":". Of course, leave out the quote marks, us lower case letters for those which require letters, and you are all set. In any event, just click on "smiles guide" as stated above. :smilejapa

BTW: On the main index page , there is a Help forum near the top which may get these kinds of questions answered more quickly, but if I can help, just ask.:laugh:

Mark



[Edited by MarkF on 11-12-2000 at 03:13 AM]