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Gil Gillespie
8th November 2000, 03:01
This weekend I had the opportunity to attend a seminar conducted by one of the most valid and deep of western Aikidoka. I came up these last 12 years under Saotome Sensei and Aikikai, and the training I experienced this weekend was different. Different but THE SAME. Tasting the different flavor while probing the essential congruence of principle was a rewarding enriching experience.

I first encountered this feeling in 1990 when I stumbled into Minoru Mochizuki Sensei's hombu dojo of his Yoseikan Budo in Shizuoka Japan. At first it was a different world, since Yoseikan is a syncretic art of Sensei's crafting combining his Judo roots, with time spent as Ueshiba Sensei's uchi deshi, along with karate. But the similarities emerged and reinforced the principles of Aikido.

Have you been challenged by training outside your style? Are you open to it, or do you defend your style in an a priori knee-jerk way? How do you view the disparity of Aikido styles?

autrelle
8th November 2000, 05:29
i love the diversity of style in aikido. i'll go ahead and get the negative point of my post out of the way. i have seen some aikido that i just didn't like. hated it. or maybe i just didn't understand it, so i didn't like it. but there were definitely a few times that regardless oh whether i understood it or not, i knew i didn't like it. but i began to tell myself this in consolation: if i had never seen that style of aikido now and hated it, i might end up that way without knowing it. so even when i see something i don't like, i use it as a model of what isn't presently for me.

as far as anything else-bring it on! i think that it's sad that so many political factions sometimes get in the way of training. but oh well, people are people.

Ron Tisdale
8th November 2000, 14:37
I think the diversity in aikido is wonderfull. Athough I have very strong feelings about my personal choice of style, I am continually surprised and delighted by the strength and beauty of other styles. I learn as much as I can from them, and hope that I might someday have something to offer in return.

Ron Tisdale

akiy
8th November 2000, 16:22
My teacher said something at the recent Aikido-L Seminar (http://www.aikido-l.org) that I'll just paraphrase here.

He said that a while back when he was at a restaurant in Paris, a friend of his suggested that he try out the smoked salmon pizza at this restaurant. Having never had a taste of said pizza, he was a bit turned off by the idea of putting smoked salmon on pizza. But, he went ahead and tried it -- and liked it.

A while later in Texas, another friend of his suggested he try out the hot and sour chicken pizza that was being served at a cafeteria. He thought that such a thing would taste terrible, but his prior experience with the smoked salmon pizza convinced him to try out this pizza. It turned out, of course, that the pizza was pretty bad and he didn't like it.

He said that we should treat our aikido training in the same manner. Unless we go and experience many different kinds of approaches in aikido, we won't know what's good and, more importantly, what works for us.

I've so far gone to seminars with many different shihan of many different organizations, and I think it's very much benefitted my aikido. I welcome the diversity in aikido because, as we all know, we're all different. Trying to foster the "exact sameness" in all of us just isn't going to work after a while...

-- Jun Akiyama

PS: Gil, was this seminar at Shindai Aikikai? If so, I too have trained with the person who taught that weekend. Great stuff.

[Edited by akiy on 11-08-2000 at 02:26 PM]

BC
8th November 2000, 17:03
I thoroughly enjoy training with other "styles" of aikido. In fact, I just returned from a trip where I practiced at a dojo where the waza was essentially the same (Aikikai/USAF, but different region), but their ukemi has some very distinct differences. When I was in my home dojo last night, I started trying to practice some of the different ukemi, and got some funny looks and chuckles (mainly because I'm not very good at it - yet). For our seminars, our late shihan used to purposely invite instructors who had different "styles" than his in order to expose his students to the different "flavors" (as Jun eloquently put it) of aikido. I believe exposure to these different "styles" enriches the practice of aikido.

Mike Collins
8th November 2000, 19:52
I just went this weekend to see Ikeda Sensei, a teacher outside my usual training "style" and had a great time. I've been pretty open minded for the most part, and have consequently been able to see quite a few really good teachers, some even (gasp) outside of Aikido.

The act of opening onesself to new ways of thinking, is I think, beneficial to grasping principles. It is easy to spend a lifetime forcing everything to fit my paradigm, and much harder to enter a new paradigm and really "see".

Yeah, we filter everything through our frame of reference, but if we are aware of that, and make adjustments for that, the universe, as well as our sense of where we fit in it, seem to expand.

The more I train, the less I know. The less I know, the more competent I feel.

One of my favorite teachers in the world says "You never really start to make progress until you're willing to be bad at Aikido.". I really like that statement.

AND, I can say that I've been thrown around by some martial arts legends, just cause I was willing to be.

Gil Gillespie
8th November 2000, 21:11
Yes, Jun, the seminar was at Shindai Dojo in Orlando FL, my home dojo.

Mike was that your first time experiencing Ikeda Sensei? What a gift he is. Left you pondering didn't he? I missed him this year in Pensacola FL (working again, rats!), and since I'm not able to travel only to train I'm left with the Brooklyn Dodgers' famous "Wait til next year!"

Neil Yamamoto
8th November 2000, 21:40
Or any class either. I guess I have been lucky since I have always had the opportunity from day 1 in marital arts to experience other schools teachings and was encouraged to do this since practice is practice and I had enough good sensei and seniors to help me not get lost in the mix of material.

While I started in Ki Society, moved in the great schism to Aiki-kai, the dojo resigned from the Aiki-kai, joined ASU for a time. After that, I walked out on the dojo and rejoined with Bernie Lau and it's all been downhill from there.

I guess I have been around. I could be called an aiki tramp. Flat on my back in many strange places and getting twisted in strange positions by people I barely know.

I think training outside of your "home" dojo is a great way to keep the art from getting stale for yourself. Avoid the 7 year itch if you like. It stimulates the brain, is a great way to meet people, and if it's the right crowd, teaches you that aiki works even if you are hungover on Sunday morning. Highly recommended in my book.



[Edited by Neil Yamamoto on 11-08-2000 at 03:45 PM]

davoravo
8th November 2000, 22:18
Training outside your style? DO IT!

It's an excellent way of exploring the other extreme within your own style and you will inevitably walk away with something you can use - a way of generating more power or a feeling of softness and ki - that you can use at home.

It is also a way of seeing things that you just hadn't noticed at regular training.

Also different dojo encourage different styles of uke. I have mentioned this before; a lot of uke's will only "let" you throw them if you do it their way (unless you crank it on with speed, suddeneness or power), so it's good to see how different people react and move.

Mike Collins
8th November 2000, 22:58
No Gil,

I got to train with him when I first started about 10-12 years ago, and that time he left me completely baffled. This time I could at least see what he was doing; I couldn't do it anything like him just yet, but he's got me by a few years of training. In a funny way, he does very basic things, his subtelties are very subtle though. You really gotta be watching to see what he is teaching. It's almost as if he is hiding things in plain sight.

I was a bit surprised that some of the folks who train in that "style" as a regular diet were missing some of the things I felt he was pretty clear about (but then, I probably miss most of what my teacher does). I didn't get a chance to train with Jun, but I did get a few falls from the big guy himself.

szczepan
9th November 2000, 04:33
Well, I'm not very sure training outside is so so positive. May be sometimes, but not very early and not very often.
I believe one needs one good teacher to learn basics. Average it takes about 20 years or so. Otherwise you got mix up and result is pitiful - so I'd say "many teachers - no teacher".

How any beginner can pick up different detailes from different teachers because he likes it and put it together ( o yeah, all teachers do SAME SAME aikido...), and he has no idea at all how to perform a reasonably good and efficient ikkyo against activly resisting opponent?????

Anyone visited Hombu Aikikai? Try to do full week with every teacher :confused: Every good teacher has his system of teaching and tools from one system are not compatibles to another. Worse, often they are used to teach completely different and opposite ideas.
Until now, I talked about physical training. Now, in spiritual training this kind of mix up is disastrous. Situation in aikido in Europe on spiritual level only confirm my conclusion.These folks still think about dojo as democratic institution, and a teacher for them is kind of article or worker - "we pay him, we can require results".And you have one milion different federations.

ok I'll better stop now.

regardz

Mike Collins
9th November 2000, 04:50
My God, You're right!!

I've been so wrong, I shouldn't have understood any of the things I've learned from different teachers. Only one teacher for me from now on. Thanks Szczepan, I've seen the error of my ways.

szczepan
9th November 2000, 05:10
Originally posted by Mike Collins
My God, You're right!!

I've been so wrong, I shouldn't have understood any of the things I've learned from different teachers. Only one teacher for me from now on. Thanks Szczepan, I've seen the error of my ways.

I understand Mike,


I got to train with him when I first started about 10-12 years ago, and that time he left me completely baffled


and this was only ONE teacher.... :D

regardz

Mike Collins
9th November 2000, 06:25
One of probably over two dozen highly ranked and really wonderful teachers. Each of whom left me at least a bit baffled, and made me think. And I still managed to learn from most of them and somehow get a bit better with each exposure.

My teacher is good enough that he too trains with others with an open mind. Maybe that is what he is teaching!????

autrelle
9th November 2000, 06:25
has anyone here trained for twenty years under the same teacher to learn the "basics?" hypothetical best case scenarios vs. someone's actual experience. please, Ssczcscszs, detail your faithful training history under your sole instructor, who has been teaching you the basics for what will be twenty years if that time frame hasn't gone by already. for example, here's mine:

feb 94-dec 98: usaf school in jacksonville, fl, majority of instruction by chris rozett. others include instructors include peter bernath, grady from melbourne aikikai, curtis rosiek, tom walker, mike sands, and a few more that i may forget...

dec 98 to present: i train under the technical guidance of takashi ishikawa. everyonce in a while i get to visit the yoshinkan dojo here in town.

it's really hard to learn anything, having seen so many teachers in such a short time period (less than twenty years).

i hope you have fun cutting and pasting this reply ino your own and adding your bit of semantic rhetoric. note that i won't veil my sarcasm/disdain behind a smiling icon, either.

sincerely.

szczepan
9th November 2000, 14:54
Originally posted by Mike Collins
One of probably over two dozen highly ranked and really wonderful teachers. Each of whom left me at least a bit baffled, and made me think. And I still managed to learn from most of them and somehow get a bit better with each exposure.

My teacher is good enough that he too trains with others with an open mind. Maybe that is what he is teaching!????

I have no doubt you had and still has wonderful teachers.
I have no idea how to keep open mind after long time pracice with only one teacher.

M.Otello from Holland,

I'm very happy you got basics so fast with so many teachers!!!

regardz

autrelle
9th November 2000, 15:02
in my post, i never said that i have "gotten" basics at all. in fact, my basics are quite bad, and at the rate i'm going with all the instructors i see, i probably never will.

somehow, i knew you would post as you just did.

sincerely.

Paul Schweer
9th November 2000, 15:52
Originally posted by szczepan
Well, I'm not very sure training outside is so so positive. May be sometimes, but not very early and not very often.
I believe one needs one good teacher to learn basics. Average it takes about 20 years or so. Otherwise you got mix up and result is pitiful ....


I'm a beginner who recently had the privilege of training under a teacher from the "outside."

What he did looked very different. What he said sounded very familiar. What he taught was, I'm told, the very same.

Was it positive? I took the training because I was encouraged to do so. I believe I'm better off because of it, but how could I convince you of that? I'm still mixed up and pitiful.

Today, I'll try again to improve.

Paul Schweer

Mike Collins
9th November 2000, 19:53
Hey Paul,

That is the single most profound thing I've ever seen on any of these bulletin boards "Today, I'll try again to improve".

Thanks, and I am being completely sincere.

RDeppe
9th November 2000, 22:44
Szczepan, I might be sympathetic if you argued 'Do most of your training with one master', but otherwise, I have to say 'get out and have some fun.'

BTW, IMHO ba gua & hsing I are great cross training arts-- if I only had the time...

Take Care.

Daniel Pokorny
9th November 2000, 23:39
Szczepan,

You really crack me up! PLEASE enlighten me and the members of this group regarding the vast experiences in your life that you've based your very short sighted opinion on?

Because something may not work for you, you automatically assume it will not work for anyone else either? These comments only show your lack of experience in life and training. Try living awhile before you drive yourself down such dead end streets!

PS, My offer for you to come down and train still holds. I can guarantee you very realistic attacks to work with....

Daniel Pokorny
http://www.shindai.com

szczepan
10th November 2000, 23:01
Originally posted by Daniel Pokorny
Szczepan,

You really crack me up! PLEASE enlighten me and the members of this group regarding the vast experiences in your life that you've based your very short sighted opinion on?

Because something may not work for you, you automatically assume it will not work for anyone else either? These comments only show your lack of experience in life and training. Try living awhile before you drive yourself down such dead end streets!

PS, My offer for you to come down and train still holds. I can guarantee you very realistic attacks to work with....

Daniel Pokorny
http://www.shindai.com


Daniel,

I'm not against cross training.
I can't enlighten you.Try to figure yourself if its important to you, read carefully what I wrote and think again....

regardz

Mike Collins
10th November 2000, 23:19
Szczepan,

I don't think Daniel was hoping for you to provide spiritual enlightenment. I'm pretty sure he was asking about your time training, etcetera. I know that I'm curious. Many of the opinions you come out with give the impression of someone without many years of experience in the art, but there is always the possibility that these are your sincere opinions, attained through many years of hard training. Many of us are curious, please let us know.

Just so you know that you're not being singled out without reciprocation, my background is since January of 1990 with one teacher, in Aikido; a few months here and there in jujutsu, and some limited time in T'ai Chi Chu'an (all together, a few months). I am a nidan in Aikido, and don't consider myself particularly adept, just another student.

autrelle
11th November 2000, 03:58
if you ever come to orlando Sczepepexe, make sure to stop in jacksonville, and i'll extend the same offer to you as daniel.

Julian
11th November 2000, 10:46
Hi All,

I have to admit some sympathy with Szczepans rather extreme point of view. Initially, for the first "X" years of training ( X=20 may be too long), I think you are learning somebody else's aikido, your chosen teacher's. In this initial phase of your training, studying from other teachers may enhance/disrupt/have no effect. In my experience (only 6 years) training outside my school (six times) has had limited technical benefits. I did however enjoy each of those experiences for the opportunities they gave me to train in alien environments, with people who reacted in unfamiliar ways. Similarly I always try to grap the dojo tourist when they walk through the door for the training opportunities they represent.
When you have reached a point where you are starting to make aikido your own, training outside your school would I expect open the door to valuable aiki-revalations. But I feel the vision to see beyond the differences in basic techniques only comes with some mastery of those basic techniques.

Cheers

Julian Bever

George Ledyard
12th November 2000, 02:55
Originally posted by szczepan
Well, I'm not very sure training outside is so so positive. May be sometimes, but not very early and not very often.
I believe one needs one good teacher to learn basics. Average it takes about 20 years or so. Otherwise you got mix up and result is pitiful - so I'd say "many teachers - no teacher".


I would have to almost completely disagree. I have trained extensively under Saotome Sensei (my teacher), Ikeda sensei, Mary Heiny Sensei, Tom Read Sensei, Bruce Bookman Sensei, and William Gleason Sensei. I have had a fair exposure to a number of other teachers. This exposure has allowed me to see that there is never just one way to do a technique. it has also made it possible for me to see new things and not get stuck in my old habits.

We hosted a jo seminar a number of years ago with Nishioka and Relnick Senseis. It was for Aikido people new to jodo so they focused on fundamentals. They introduced a particular strike which takes about two years to do correctly. Most of our students made a creditbale effort to get the strike right. However there was a senior person from another Aikido dojo present (Nidan I believe) who had done a lot of jo work. This person had had his basics so drilled in that he was incapable of even seeing how the jodo strike differed from what he had been taught. Nishioka Sensei sat there going do this, then this, then this... Each time the person nodded and then did exactly what they had been taught previously. He was almost incapable of taking in new information.

People who have had exposure to different ways to do technique develop the ability to see new things without as much distortion from previous experience. They are more flexible and learn new things faster. I would go with that nay time over twenty years of basics drilled in till you can't even see anything different anymore.

[Edited by George Ledyard on 11-11-2000 at 08:58 PM]

Gil Gillespie
12th November 2000, 04:08
Thank you, George. Fine post. You arrived at what I was looking for when I offered the thread. Your view of the nidan jodoka is such a sad illustration of "concretized thinking." What an unfortunate stance to shut oneself off from another's worth. You don't have to stop doing it "your" way, but try another way. Sure meguro (tuna) sushi is tasty, but try a piece of hamachi (yellowtail).

It comes down to shoshin, the beginner's mind. And that cliched but oh so true battered old saying that "there are infinite possibilities in the beginner's mind; in the expert's, there are few." A great sensei recently explained it to me, it's not an empty bucket; it's an EXPANDABLE bucket. Great metaphor, I'm thinkin.

M Clarke
13th November 2000, 02:08
Hope I can add something constructive to this lively and enjoyable discussion.
I agree and am very happy to see that the majority seem to think that training outside your style is a positive thing to do. I understand what Mr. Szczepan Janczuk is saying, though, it maybe just that his time frame before a student should look around is a bit long.
Many students need a couple of years getting the body. They should possibly stay with a <good> teacher who will also introduce them to the history, culture, and possibly spriritual (for want of a better word) aspects of the art also. If a student is hopping, one dojo for six months, another for 6 months, then another for three and so on, I feel that it is possible that the student's initial growth can be retarded. However, one would expect a student of 20 years to not only be established in the basics but also be able to express creatively. And also be familiar with priciples taught in different ways at different dojos/styles/arts.
For background. I started in kendo in Takamatsu (Sanuki) in 1982, then started at Kyokushinkai Hombu in Ikebukuro in 1986. I have been training aikido for six years.
Regards

szczepan
13th November 2000, 06:35
There are many reasons why not to train too early outside of style.

When you enter in a dojo first time, even 5 kyu aikido is fantactic.What a teacher doing is completly out of your understanding.After a while, you find some 1-2 kyu are yours demi-gods and not 5 kyu anymore.Few ikkyos later you don't look at anybody ,only at your main teacher as your model...

that's very common way of changing a jugement.
That's happened because of not enough training and false understanding, false jugement,...etc.So first few years nearly EVERY teacher around is fantastic and you'd love to train with him.

As we all know it's simply not true.Technical level of shodans vary a lot,level of godans as well.

Some teachers have good structure of teaching, others have no structure to offer.

Many teachers use the same training tools but for different and often CONTRARY GOALS.Nobody without solid teacher's experience can detect it, cos these tools give results only in long term training.Also, using them in short term can be harmfull.Using them in partial ways gives no results at all!!!

It's like you pick up a engin from truck ford, wheels from bicyle, seat from your boss office, and steering wheel from submarine and you try to fly to Mars....

Aikido techniques, not because it looks nice it is good to you!!

If a beginner decide to follow one teacher, he has any jugement to help him with structur of teaching someone from same style but other dojo, less with other style.
As I stated ,before trying to learn many ways of i.e.ikkyo, one must be able to do a decent ikkyo in his own style.
That's funny, how many folks think to get it after 5 or 10 years.please try it against someone who is activly resisting, is bigger/much stronger then you and not doing aikido.

Phisical level is very difficult, or spirituality is completly other level of difficulty.O'sensei studied Shinto, almost no one follow him in this direction.Instead, many techers developped their own vision if spirituality in aikido.So their methods of trainig mirror their spiritual belives(if they have one).To enter deep in spirituality in aikido one need many, many years of training and personal interaction in one's teacher system and not only reading few funny books. So jumping from teacher to another every few years is waiste of time.learning something on spiritual level during one class or seminar from teacher out of style is impossible.

So if aikido has two elements(martial and spiritual) and learning every one of them out of style make not only confusion but also distorion to one's understanding and make impossible right developpement of art.

regardz

Ron Tisdale
13th November 2000, 15:14
Quick question;

How many people who responded to this thread envisioned studying one or two years with one teacher, then moving to the next, then another and so on?

How many envisioned training with one teacher for an extended period of time, but taking the opportunity to see what is different in another style occationally?

I think there might be some misunderstanding between what Szspan (pardon the mispelling) is saying and what others are saying. I tend toward the latter view. I think most of us do. While extreme, Szsepan's view does have its benefits, if you have found a teacher and style that really have something to offer you.

And I don't know about looking to 5th, or 2nd or 1st kyu students for examples. I try not to even look too closely to the yudansha.....I try (and have always tried) to look to the main instructor for the example. If I see that someone else does what he does, and they are more approachable, I go to them for help. But I'm still focused on the image of my instructor's movement. Even when I go outside the style, I do so to make what's in my style even stronger. Sometimes I find a dead end. But I'm going to find some of those anyway.

Ron Tisdale

szczepan
13th November 2000, 16:07
This system of learning has long tradition in aikido.As O'sensei didn't explain a lot and nobody could figure out how to do any movemet after one demo, most of learning was from senior members of dojo I suppose.And K.Tochei was a real idol for most of uchideshi in many ways.

This way is particularly usefull when train out of style.
For you, yoshinkan guys, trying to copy directly Yamaguchi sensei was waiste of time(this is not attack at quality yoshinkan teaching).You always need intermediary level teacher, bewtween you and 8 dan.just to understand principles of his movements(in context training out of style ).

regardz

Dennis Hooker
14th November 2000, 18:02
Well as I see it the man (Ueshiba Sensei) did it his way and he changed that way along the way in more that one way. Many of the folks that followed him and created their own schools did it their way based on the way they were before they came his way. Or they were influenced by the way he did things when he came their way, so if they did not already have an established way then they chose his way at that stage along the way he was walking at the time. For instance those that were heavily influenced by the gentle way of Judo created their schools of Aikido based heavily upon the stances and interaction of judo and the techniques of the gentle way were influenced by the Aikido way. Ditto for the sumo way and ken way. I think The Man did not get heavily into the sword way until latter in his life and that is the difference you see between those fine teachers developed before the war and those that came after. The way of the feet changed the way of Aikido. You can see the technical way and principles of the Aikido way reflected in the application of the students of Aikido that also study another way. I have seen the way of medical way change because of the Doctor getting involved in the Aikido way, ditto for the way trades and professions are changed by their masters getting involved with the Aikido way. So why not the way of other styles. Chances are someone already beat you to the chance to be the guy with the new way anyway.

This is getting way to confusing for me
Dennis Hooker
http://www.shindai.com

Szczepan you are still welcome to visit the Shindai Dojo, and it WILL BE a friendly welcome.


Originally posted by szczepan
This system of learning has long tradition in aikido.As O'sensei didn't explain a lot and nobody could figure out how to do any movemet after one demo, most of learning was from senior members of dojo I suppose.And K.Tochei was a real idol for most of uchideshi in many ways.

This way is particularly usefull when train out of style.
For you, yoshinkan guys, trying to copy directly Yamaguchi sensei was waiste of time(this is not attack at quality yoshinkan teaching).You always need intermediary level teacher, bewtween you and 8 dan.just to understand principles of his movements(in context training out of style ).

regardz

Mike Collins
14th November 2000, 18:13
So, basically it's one way or the highway. Anyway your way is your way, and it probably doesn't matter how much I weigh. I'll just get back to my curds and whey now.

Ron Tisdale
14th November 2000, 19:07
Originally posted by szczepan
This system of learning has long tradition in aikido.As O'sensei didn't explain a lot and nobody could figure out how to do any movemet after one demo, most of learning was from senior members of dojo I suppose.And K.Tochei was a real idol for most of uchideshi in many ways.

This way is particularly usefull when train out of style.
For you, yoshinkan guys, trying to copy directly Yamaguchi sensei was waiste of time(this is not attack at quality yoshinkan teaching).You always need intermediary level teacher, bewtween you and 8 dan.just to understand principles of his movements(in context training out of style ).

regardz

I can't speak too well to your first paragraph (wasn't there, don't know). But I can say that Tohei S. wasn't an idol for the prewar students; I don't believe he was there yet.

I can certainly speak to your second paragraph. Gozo Shioda was the founder of the Yoshinkan school, and was involved in overseeing the movements that are taught in great detail in the yoshinkan. My highest ranking instructor studied directly with him (and doesn't seem to have had a problem directly copying his instructor). And frankly, I don't think you are in a position to know. (no offense)

The instructor that I study with the most watched the first gentleman intently for some period of time, and made it a priority to copy his style of movement...not the senior students, not the kyu students, the teacher's movement. He has passed that habit and the knowledge he gained on to his students. That is what I have been focused on for the last four years. I may not be all that great, but I do believe that people seeing the afore mentioned instructors do aikido and then seeing me try to do aikido could easily see the pattern I have set for myself (as well as my failures).

So yes, there is an intermediary. But no, I do not pattern myself after the intermediary (something he specifically warns against). I pattern myself after the original (my original anyway).

Ron Tisdale

[Edited by Ron Tisdale on 11-14-2000 at 01:25 PM]

szczepan
15th November 2000, 02:24
Originally posted by Mike Collins
So, basically it's one way or the highway.

Hi Mike,

aikido is very simple("strike like a thunder"),but not soooo simple..... :D

regardz

szczepan
15th November 2000, 02:38
Originally posted by Dennis Hooker
Well as I see it the man (Ueshiba Sensei) did it his way and he changed that way along the way in more that one way

Szczepan you are still welcome to visit the Shindai Dojo, and it WILL BE a friendly welcome.

[

Hi Dennis,

Thx for invitation, I didn't forgot.I suppose one day I'll visit your dojo, no prob.It is my heavy habit to often visit dojo outside of my style :smokin:

It's true Ueshiba Sensei changed during a years, but I can understand all these 4-6 years beginners at this time, they coudn't get what he changed and why.Apparently he used not only religious vocabulary, but also old japanese slang.

regardz

szczepan
15th November 2000, 02:48
Originally posted by Ron Tisdale

I can't speak too well to your first paragraph (wasn't there, don't know). But I can say that Tohei S. wasn't an idol for the prewar students; I don't believe he was there yet.

I can certainly speak to your second paragraph. Gozo Shioda was the founder of the Yoshinkan school, and was involved in overseeing the movements that are taught in great detail in the yoshinkan. My highest ranking instructor studied directly with him (and doesn't seem to have had a problem directly copying his instructor). And frankly, I don't think you are in a position to know. (no offense)

The instructor that I study with the most watched the first gentleman intently for some period of time, and made it a priority to copy his style of movement...not the senior students, not the kyu students, the teacher's movement. He has passed that habit and the knowledge he gained on to his students. That is what I have been focused on for the last four years. I may not be all that great, but I do believe that people seeing the afore mentioned instructors do aikido and then seeing me try to do aikido could easily see the pattern I have set for myself (as well as my failures).

So yes, there is an intermediary. But no, I do not pattern myself after the intermediary (something he specifically warns against). I pattern myself after the original (my original anyway).

Ron Tisdale

[Edited by Ron Tisdale on 11-14-2000 at 01:25 PM] [/B]

As for idols and all, sure thing I was talking about post war students.This is my unique direct contact with aikido of M.Ueshiba presently.

I believe even G.Shioda sensei when he was young,he learned big deal from his seniors - I don't think O'sensei explained a lot before IIWW.
Yes I look also as high as I can(i.e. for spirit of movement,and for The Way),but for "little detailes" in daily training I still need one senior or other...

regardz

MarkF
15th November 2000, 09:47
Hi, Dennis,
I thought I held the championship of using the same word in the same paragraph without repeating my meaning. I know when I'm licked, and I now hand you the menkyo. I am salivating as I wayt for the next in line, or the way of license of transmission.

Do you think you could come out and take a look at my '87 Mercury?

Bowing to the master,:smilejapa

I remain former champion,

with deepest regards,

Mark