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Tetsutaka
5th June 2000, 14:33
How much space do you think a student, or rather a pair of students need to practice technique?

How do you think the space requirements for one art differs from another, i.e. karate vs. judo vs. aikido vs. kali? [OK forget kali - not a Japanese art... http://216.10.1.92/ubb/wink.gif]

Most Japanese dojos I've seen on video or have heard accounts of seem pretty small. How do you compensate for a small floorspace?

Thanks in advance,

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Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[This message has been edited by Tetsutaka (edited 06-05-2000).]

BrianV
6th June 2000, 06:23
Hi all, I am a Jujutsu practitioner and Instructor from Canada.
I have always used this basic formula for work area.
For one student the necessary floor space is using the persons height as a radius in a circle. (Or use twice their height as a diameter).
If there are two people, such as in Kumite or Shiai, then the persons are one arms length away (tallest person if uneven) and the circles overlap.
Hope this is useful to you,


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Brian V

MarkF
6th June 2000, 09:20
Knock down a wall?

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Mark F. Feigenbaum

hyaku
6th June 2000, 09:54
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tetsutaka:

[B]How much space do you think a student, or rather a pair of students need to practice technique?

Whatever is required to practice in safety.


Most Japanese dojos I've seen on video or have heard accounts of seem pretty small. How do you compensate for a small floorspace?

Most purpose built Japanese dojo are the size of two match areas, a gymnasium four. In m y Kendo dojo even this is not enough this year. All you can really do is split the members with some practicing and some resting. I don't really like doing this. To keep our standard means three hours continuous practice. However in match practice to pick a team it doesn't really matter. Two areas are more than enough.
............................

Hyakutake

Tetsutaka
6th June 2000, 12:26
Mark - you're not helping... might as well say "train outside" - well I do that too http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

Hyakutake,
When you say match area, what do you mean? Can you give that area in square yards or meters? I'm afraid that I don't practice in competitive budo, so I don't understand the dimensions you imply.

How many people fit comfortably on the mat simultaneously? I'm not anticipating doing kendo in the dojo, but it would be interesting to compare space requirements [versus karate, jujutsu, judo, etc] and develop a document for future reference.

Thanks in advance,
Houston

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Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

Aaron Fields
6th June 2000, 19:18
I practice and teach ju-jutsu (goshin-jutsu,some of us also practice judo.) Our space is a converted warehouse, which is 70x20 ft (20 ft ceilings.) We have about 1100 sq ft sprung and under mat. If we are doing waza we can get about 12 people on the mat with no space fears at a time. When doing randori that number goes down to about 8. We could cram more on, but we prefer to have enough space to work. When the class numbers are up we usually break into groups of three.

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Regards,
Aaron

Tetsutaka
6th June 2000, 20:10
Brain and Aaron,

Thanks for the info. That is an interesting guidline, using the "falling radius" for establishing spacing. That could also be applied to weapons training, if you include the weapon falling from an outstretched limb to "spread" it to the larger arc.

Very interesting,
Thanks!

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Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

Aaron Fields
6th June 2000, 22:01
Sorry, I should have mentioned weapons on the first post. When using weapons we give more room based upon the weapon in question. I had my brow split once by a flying wood practice tanto, so we usually space people wide. At the time I did not realize we were dealing with multiple attackers. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Regards,
Aaron

Chuck Clark
6th June 2000, 22:47
Interesting question. I have grown up hearing that the usual space in Japan should be two tatami (1 tatami = 3'x6' approx.) per pair. I think Westerners should be more like 4 tatami per pair.

In my dojo in Tempe, AZ (the Jiyushinkan) we have a mat 26'x 36' which we generally have 15 - 20 participants per practice. We also practice Shinto Muso-ryu and usually have 10 -12 participants. We have strong practice and no injuries with this space. Our #1 rule is, "Take Care of Your Partner" and tori is always responsible for where the uke lands. During gasshuku we often have 40 people on this mat area.

Regards,



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Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
http://www.jiyushinkai.org

astudent
12th September 2000, 23:50
i really think it depends on what those two students are doing. if weapons are involved then they definitly will need more space, especially if a jo is being used. you don't want to go knocking out those behind and to the side of you.

using the "falling radius" may be useful but if someone likes to do flying breakfalls that may be a little harder to determine.

in my dojo we have a fairly large space and it rarely fills to capacity. it's nice to have that room but i also think it's good to train in confined spaces as well. i notice my technique differs slightly with less room to move. you never know when and in what environment you may need to use what you've trained. it could be a crowded bar or open street.

will szlemko
13th September 2000, 06:12
Hi all,

I train in jujutsu. Our classes are currently running about 16-20 people. We have about 1200 sq ft but only 200 sq ft of mat space 10'x20'. We divid our class into mudansha and yudansha with one group working basics and forms while the other group works throws, self defense, etc. With the mudansha they are provided structure so that they can train safely. With yudansha we just don't throw into another person. This definately helps train awareness. On our mats we generally will fit 4 pair of mudansha with 2 pair executing technique and 2 pair prepping. With yudansha we fit 4-5 pair on the mat all working simultaneously, but being aware of their partner and the others on the mat. This is quite crowded but works unless we are going full out.

will

Tetsutaka
13th September 2000, 14:43
I appreciate everyone who has contributed. Since I originally posted, I have acquired a training space. It is approximately 750 square feet, but the mat area is 17'X30'. We've had 10 on the mats before with no problem. Right now, we have enough class times [and the dojo is new enough] that we only have 4 to 6 participants per class. That of course will change soon enough, but I feel confident that we'll be able to handle the load.

http://www.sagesystems.org/images/brecht/kamiza9.jpg

The suggestion that I received from other Genbukan instructors follows what has already been contributed here: when you get a large number, then rotate in and out.

In fact, it was suggested that in Japan, the participants would pair off - take a particular technique and run it through the correct number of times, then step off to the side of the mat to take notes on what they practiced.

So, perhaps what is being discussed is not far from the traditional method... ;)

Yours in ninpo spirit,

[Edited by Tetsutaka on 09-13-2000 at 08:47 AM]

Dojorat
13th September 2000, 16:52
Greetins,

You can triple your space utilization if you just keep one third of the students in the air doing flying techniques and another third on the mat doing ground techniques among the remaining third doing standing techniques.

It just takes a little choreography, similar to Air Traffic Control at an airport, coordinating the takeoffs and landings.

(Please insert your favorite happy face emoticon here)

Cheers,

Dale
22nd September 2000, 02:52
I think it depends on the grade of your students.
Beginners, lets say doing Tomoe nage, need two body lengths plus air space in between and enough space to take a couple of steps backward before attempting the throw.
Advanced student, for the same technique need about one and a half body lengths, if that.

I like the idea about rotating and taking notes on the last technique. I always kick myself when I am note taking and can't remember what we did in class.


Yours in Budo
Dale Elsdon

MarkF
22nd September 2000, 10:19
Exact space has never been much of a problem. On a smaller mat with many students, things seem to adjust themselves. Of course I would love to have corner to corner mat space, room for a warning area instead of the floor, but you adjust to it.

As to throws, etc. which take up more than most, eg, tomoe nage or yoko tomoenage, I have been in the habit of taking a look behind me before doing the throw. I have never seen an accident in which lack of space was the main problem. If it really is crowded, than an evening of uchikomi isn't that bad.:)

Mark

Dojorat
22nd September 2000, 13:43
Greetins,

On a crowded mat... if you ask that people throw their partner outward toward the edge of the mat, it helps prevent a "meeting of minds."

Cheers,