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morpheus
11th October 2004, 14:00
I was browsing on Ebay and saw this listed. It was listed as a text on Katori Shinto Ryu, written by Otake Risuke. It was not listed very long on ebay and was just one in a lot of 10 books. I did a brief bit of research to find that is was one of three volumes on KSR. Does anyone have anymore info on the title? Also is it still in publication?
thanks for any help

gabro
11th October 2004, 14:54
I actually have a copy at home, but it is in my "unread" pile....
I believe the books are fairly rare, and normally collects stupid amounts of money on ebay (I am sorry, but not even my signed copy of Born for the mat is worth $1000).

From my browsing of the books, I believe they are in japanese and english, and that they comprise a fairly detailed catalogue of techniques from Katori Shinto Ryu. I would rate the series as a valuable addition to a collection (which is why I have them). However, I should point out that my sword training is so far one class of Kendo, and I may not know what I am talkin about. I believe if you do a quick search on e-budo, you will find people more knowledgable than me praising it.

Cheers,

Mads

morpheus
12th October 2004, 01:04
An archive search did bear fruit. Thanks

poryu
12th October 2004, 08:06
Hi

there are 3 books in the set.

they are very rare now and can fetch $100 on ebay.

They have just been re-released in french, I dont have any publisher details sorry

El Guapo-san
13th October 2004, 23:15
I have the French version. Website is www.budo.fr .... Drool, drool, drool, well worth the money. If you can't read French, then the first part will be a loss for you. Pictures are great though.

J. Vlach

Martyn van Halm
13th November 2004, 05:14
I have all 3 volumes in soft cover. The hardcover editions are rare and expensive, soft covers were originally half the price of the hc version.
I bought mine new, but even the soft cover is no longer in print. So it's either secondhand or the French version.

For more information on the KSR curriculum, check www.aikidojo.nl

ChrisMoon
13th November 2004, 09:37
Originally posted by Martyn van Halm


For more information on the KSR curriculum, check www.aikidojo.nl

Why in the heck would I contact an aiki dojo for info on KSR? Has it not been repeatedly stated by both the Soke of TSKSR and Otake Sensei that there are no authorized dojos outside of Narita???

Bullbrand
13th November 2004, 12:41
As far as know Phil Relnick is the only authorised teacher of TSKSR in the west.

http://tenshinsho-den-katori-shinto-ryu.org/

P Goldsbury
13th November 2004, 14:16
Originally posted by ChrisMoon
Why in the heck would I contact an aiki dojo for info on KSR? Has it not been repeatedly stated by both the Soke of TSKSR and Otake Sensei that there are no authorized dojos outside of Narita???

Mr Moon,

With apologies, I have to come in here.

The e-mail address is for an instructor who teaches both TSKSR and aikido. His TSKSR lineage is via Yoshio Sugino Sensei, who also practised aikido. Of course, I cannot comment on the politics of TS/KSR, but the instructor is a 5th dan in aikido and I suspect that teaching aikido is his main source of income. Hence the e-mail address.

Yours sincerely,

Martyn van Halm
14th November 2004, 03:27
Originally posted by ChrisMoon
Why in the heck would I contact an aiki dojo for info on KSR? Has it not been repeatedly stated by both the Soke of TSKSR and Otake Sensei that there are no authorized dojos outside of Narita???
Well, considering your rudeness, I would rather you would not contact my teacher. Also, I don't recall offering the weblink to you, but to the topic starter who was curious about the Otake books.
I read the discussions on the Sugino/Otake 'controversy', but am not at liberty to involve myself to discuss matters with non-students.

ChrisMoon
14th November 2004, 03:31
How was that rude? If I wanted info on TSKSR I would contact the sole authority for TSKSR in the world. I do have his address as well as the man he has appointed to be the headmaster of the dojo.

ChrisMoon
14th November 2004, 03:34
Originally posted by Martyn van Halm
Also, I don't recall offering the weblink to you, but to the topic starter who was curious about the Otake books.


You did post it on a public forum for all to see. If you wanted only the thread starter to see it then try the pm function next time.

Martyn van Halm
14th November 2004, 03:51
Originally posted by ChrisMoon
How was that rude? If I wanted info on TSKSR I would contact the sole authority for TSKSR in the world. I do have his address as well as the man he has appointed to be the headmaster of the dojo.
If you fail to see your reply as rude, I will not waste energy on showing you your lack of manners.


Originally posted by ChrisMoon
You did post it on a public forum for all to see. If you wanted only the thread starter to see it then try the pm function next time.
Have you applied for the post of moderator yet? You seem to have a keen desire to tell others what to do and how.

ChrisMoon
14th November 2004, 04:00
Originally posted by Martyn van Halm
If you fail to see your reply as rude, I will not waste energy on showing you your lack of manners.

Well I apologize if it seems rude to you. Surely it was not my intent. I am just offering the thread starter the idea that if he is interested in TSKSR that maybe the best place to go in the world would be the sole authority. Wouldn't you agree that it is pretty good advice to go to the Soke rather then a website??? If he wants the address he can email or pm me for it. I am sure he would be thankful for it.



Have you applied for the post of moderator yet? You seem to have a keen desire to tell others what to do and how.

Interesting. I think I have touched a nerve.
You are upset that I replied to your post on a public forum. I have not told you what to do, I just suggest that if you do not want my replies then send a pm. Then we can avoid this online hissy. Last time I checked I can reply to anything irregardless if it is directed at me. =)

Martyn van Halm
14th November 2004, 05:24
Originally posted by ChrisMoon
Well I apologize if it seems rude to you. Surely it was not my intent. I am just offering the thread starter the idea that if he is interested in TSKSR that maybe the best place to go in the world would be the sole authority. Wouldn't you agree that it is pretty good advice to go to the Soke rather then a website??? If he wants the address he can email or pm me for it. I am sure he would be thankful for it.
If your intent was to steer topic starter the sole authority, you could've done so without quoting my post. Instead, by quoting my post, you seem interested in arguing with me on topics I'm not at liberty to discuss.
And like I posted before, if your lack of manners goes unnoticed by yourself, I will not waste energy on enlightening you. You even seem unable to apologize, instead you turn your apology into a proposal which requires my reaction to result in an apology.


Originally posted by ChrisMoon
Interesting. I think I have touched a nerve.
You are upset that I replied to your post on a public forum. I have not told you what to do, I just suggest that if you do not want my replies then send a pm. Then we can avoid this online hissy. Last time I checked I can reply to anything irregardless if it is directed at me. =)
If you could read my mind, like you think you can, I should not have to send you a PM. Of course you can reply to anything you want, regardless whether it is directed to you. Just as I can ignore any further replies.

ChrisMoon
14th November 2004, 09:40
Originally posted by Martyn van Halm
If your intent was to steer topic starter the sole authority, you could've done so without quoting my post. Instead, by quoting my post, you seem interested in arguing with me on topics I'm not at liberty to discuss.
And like I posted before, if your lack of manners goes unnoticed by yourself, I will not waste energy on enlightening you. You even seem unable to apologize, instead you turn your apology into a proposal which requires my reaction to result in an apology.


If you could read my mind, like you think you can, I should not have to send you a PM. Of course you can reply to anything you want, regardless whether it is directed to you. Just as I can ignore any further replies.

Wowie. I think the first sentence of my last post was an apology for being rude even if it was not intentional. My whole point was to direct the person to the legitimate source for TSKSR. You were the one that seemed to blow it out of proportion. When I apologized for the percieved slight you refused to accept it.

I was not telling you to pm me. I was meaning that if you want to make a comment to another member without anyone else commenting it would be a good idea to send a pm to the person you are sending it to, other it is fair game! Just like I can comment to the thread starter that the aiki dojo in question is not authorzed by the soke of TSKSR to teach their curriculum! Have a nice day. =)

El Guapo-san
16th November 2004, 14:48
Martyn can't help it, he's Dutch. :rolleyes: I think he doesn't realise the level of fakeness encountered in many dojos, specially in North America. My money would be on Chris's comment that most sword taught in most aikido schools is absolute crap. The TSKSR offshoot in Amsterdumb is a bit of an exception though.

The main teacher here in Amsterdumb studied with Sugino for some years, I think, and had a good relationship with the man. (May still with the son, I would wager.) The teacher was nice enough on email when I enquired about visiting, though, and they do seem to run a tight ship around Europe. I once had a brief visit to the dojo (main teacher was absent), but my impression was mixed, and I didn't make it back because of a busy schedule.

Either way, the author of Diety and the Sword, the current head-honcho Otake, got into a spat with the Sugino folks over one thing or another, and now Phil Relnick is the only one authorised by Otake. That's about the sum of it.

J. Vlach

Martyn van Halm
18th November 2004, 19:48
Originally posted by El Guapo-san
Martyn can't help it, he's Dutch. :rolleyes: I think he doesn't realise the level of fakeness encountered in many dojos, specially in North America.
I do. I do not live in NA though. :D


Originally posted by El Guapo-san
My money would be on Chris's comment that most sword taught in most aikido schools is absolute crap. The TSKSR offshoot in Amsterdumb is a bit of an exception though. The aikido classes are my teacher's main income, the kobujutsu is by invitation only. We got a lot of Last Samurai wannabes. They didn't outlast the beginners classes.


Originally posted by El Guapo-san
The main teacher here in Amsterdumb studied with Sugino for some years, I think, and had a good relationship with the man. (May still with the son, I would wager.) The teacher was nice enough on email when I enquired about visiting, though, and they do seem to run a tight ship around Europe.
Erik Louw's biography is on the website.


Originally posted by El Guapo-san
I once had a brief visit to the dojo (main teacher was absent), but my impression was mixed, and I didn't make it back because of a busy schedule. Erik was probably giving a seminar abroad. When were you there? Thursday and Saturday afternoon classes are advanced students only, Sunday afternoon is beginners class (so probably not that informative).


Originally posted by El Guapo-san
Either way, the author of Diety and the Sword, the current head-honcho Otake, got into a spat with the Sugino folks over one thing or another, and now Phil Relnick is the only one authorised by Otake. That's about the sum of it.
I'm not at liberty to discuss such matters, but it's not as cut and dried as often reported on this forum by non-tsksr students.
If you study the website, you'll see we also host seminars by Yamada Hironobu sensei, a student of Otake Risuke sensei.

ChrisMoon
18th November 2004, 20:46
Originally posted by Martyn van Halm

I'm not at liberty to discuss such matters, but it's not as cut and dried as often reported on this forum by non-tsksr students.
If you study the website, you'll see we also host seminars by Yamada Hironobu sensei, a student of Otake Risuke sensei.

It is prety cut and dried unless you are saying that what Otake Sensei has told me personally is a lie. Otake Sensei has told me that there is no one outside of the main dojo that is allowed to give rank. I have a letter from him that states that too. I have been told that Phil Relnick can teach but cannot give out ranking. Phil Relnick has said this as well as another of Otake Sensei's most senior foreign students that has been around for 38 years. Another good source would be to pm Greg Ells.

El Guapo-san
19th November 2004, 11:26
Otake may have his point of view, but he ain't here, and Louw is the closest thing that we've got in this neck of the woods. The lineage is there, and despite of whatever controversies they have with each other, the latter has a great rep around Europe.

Will go check them out sometime.

J. Vlach

ChrisMoon
19th November 2004, 11:31
Originally posted by El Guapo-san
Otake may have his point of view, but he ain't here, and Louw is the closest thing that we've got in this neck of the woods. The lineage is there, and despite of whatever controversies they have with each other, the latter has a great rep around Europe.

Will go check them out sometime.

J. Vlach

It is not Otake's point of view, it comes from the Soke. If he says they do not have they authority then they do not have the authority. I will pm Greg Ellis and invite him into this. I would recommend that if anyone has any doubts and cannot speak Japanese then email Phil Relnick. If you can read and write Japanese then I suggest writing the Soke or Otake Sensei. I can be pmed for the contact info for all three.

El Guapo-san
19th November 2004, 15:42
I'm sure they're all well aware of each other. I'm in the Bujinkan and stay clear of other people's civil conflicts (so to speak).

WAIT! Look, over there, behind you, it's Elvis!

(makes kuji signs up and down a few times and disappears in a cloud of smoke)

J. VLach

Martyn van Halm
25th November 2004, 11:16
Who let the smoke detector go off? :D

Guapo, if you visit our dojo, let me know beforehand. Always good to meet fellow martial artists in real life. :)

Dan Harden
27th November 2004, 19:50
Otake may have his point of view, but he ain't here, and Louw is the closest thing that we've got in this neck of the woods. The lineage is there, and despite of whatever controversies they have with each other, the latter has a great rep around Europe.

Will go check them out sometime.

J. Vlach


************************

Point of View?
Do you think this can be reduced to a "point of view?"
This is a family art passed down from one generation to the next. It is intellectual property both held, and owned, by the founders existing family. There is no other "point of view" we should be interested in hearing from, or about. To wit-No one is allowed to teach with out the expressed consent of the Soke.
That is it...and that is all.

Dan Harden

allan
28th November 2004, 02:36
Dan,

I appreciate your 'tell it like it is' no B.S. manner of communicating. I always look forward to your posts.

Martyn van Halm
28th November 2004, 15:39
I guess the experts ruled on this.

Dan Harden
28th November 2004, 17:38
Mister Van Halm.
Neither expertise, or affiliation was noted in my response. I do thank you for the opportunity to again offer clarity in light of several attempts both here and in Europe to muddy the waters.

One family, one name- From the inception of the art in 1447, till now-owns their own family art. Neither might, nor theft, nor excellence in technique, subterfuge, expedience-thru-availability, or your refference to someone having a "great reputation in Europe" can alter that reality.
It’s all so easy.

Dan Harden

Kenshi
28th November 2004, 21:27
Post deleted

Martyn van Halm
29th November 2004, 11:18
Originally posted by Dan Harden
your refference to someone having a "great reputation in Europe"
Not my reference, but mister Vlach's.

I merely train under Erik Louw. And under Hatakeyama Goro sensei. And under Yamada Hironobu sensei. All three are highly respected sensei, at least here in Europe and in Japan.

Your comment on "several attempts both here and in Europe to muddy the waters" is noted.

However, according to the keppan of TSKSR:
1. When I become a member of the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, which has been handed down by the Great Deity of the Katori Shrine, I therewith affirm my pledge of absolute secrecy about matters of this ryu. 2. I will not have the impertinence to discuss or demonstrate my martial technique to non-members. 3. I will never engage in any kind of gambling nor frequent disre-putable places. 4. I will not cross swords with any followers of other martial traditions without a certificate of full proficiency in my art.

As a mere student of the art, I'm not at liberty to discuss the politics of TSKSR with non-students.

Information about our dojo and my sensei, Erik Louw, is on the website www.aikidojo.nl as is Erik Louw's biography, affiliation and email address.

El Guapo-san
29th November 2004, 13:28
If you want to know about the art, then buy the book. I have the French version, and it's absolutely fantastic. Like I said, it's hard to find people around who have a clue as to what they're doing when it comes to weapons. Most that I run across are either Last Samurai no kabure or Western budo no otaku trying to be Edo no nihonjin. Either way, both groups are not anything which I want to be part of.

Take the following example. I go to a class which talks about having kenjutsu of X ryu. The first thing is sword v sword, basically to get people warmed up and observing distance (I guess). My partner was quite stiff, and got mad when I didn't do the expected "stand there while I kill you" routine. I disarmed him twice with little effort, at which he complained that my muto dori "wasn't fair". My muto dori isn't that good, but this guy was a clown with no ability. Like I've always learned, if you can find good teachers with verfiable histories, pay attention to them.

Granted, I'm not a member of TSKSR, or the Sugino group, but their disputes are between them. Other than those two, there isn't anyone who can lay claim to the techniques or use of the name even though some try.

J. Vlach

ChrisMoon
29th November 2004, 14:15
Originally posted by El Guapo-san




Granted, I'm not a member of TSKSR, or the Sugino group, but their disputes are between them. Other than those two, there isn't anyone who can lay claim to the techniques or use of the name even though some try.

J. Vlach

Actually only one group can lay claim to the name, I have their address in Chiba if you would like it.

ChrisMoon
29th November 2004, 14:21
Originally posted by Martyn van Halm



However, according to the keppan of TSKSR:
1. When I become a member of the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, which has been handed down by the Great Deity of the Katori Shrine, I therewith affirm my pledge of absolute secrecy about matters of this ryu. 2. I will not have the impertinence to discuss or demonstrate my martial technique to non-members. 3. I will never engage in any kind of gambling nor frequent disre-putable places. 4. I will not cross swords with any followers of other martial traditions without a certificate of full proficiency in my art.

As a mere student of the art, I'm not at liberty to discuss the politics of TSKSR with non-students.

Information about our dojo and my sensei, Erik Louw, is on the website www.aikidojo.nl as is Erik Louw's biography, affiliation and email address.

I was curious as to when you did your keppan at the Katori Shrine? Last time I asked about these things I was told they kept a record of all of them. Remind me to bring your name up with Otake Sensei when I drop off some books and a letter to him.

If you cannot discuss the "politics" or name infringement with non-students, how about with actual students? I am certain it can be arranged.:D

ChrisMoon
30th November 2004, 02:38
Concerning Relnick Sensei, I have been told he is allowed to teach but he is not allowed to give out rank. If I am wrong please correct me.

Douglas Wylie
30th November 2004, 04:08
Originally posted by ChrisMoon
Actually only one group can lay claim to the name, I have their address in Chiba if you would like it.

Is it copyrighted? If not... guess what.

You can jump up and down, scream and holler, fuss about authority and legitimacy, and at the end of the day- they will still be doing all of your "secret" techniques just as well as you.

It's a bitter pill but you need to face reality- The school split and there is a Sugino ha Katori Shinto ryu.

Thats what it looks like to us outsiders, who you fight in front of incessantly as if you need some sort of judgement, ruling, or recognition from us.

I know you guys will come back with all the standard lines, maybe a personal attack- the response to each will be- "they still do all of your "secret" techniques just as well as you."

Thats my "ruling", if you dont want it- dont seek it by fighting it out in front of me.

ChrisMoon
30th November 2004, 05:00
Then call it Sugino-ha Katori Shinto Ryu. There is one soke of TSKSR and he does not condone what that group is doing. They may know the technique but if they do not have his blessing then they are not legitimate TSKSR, there is no gray area on that. That is the bitter pill they will have to swallow.

ChrisMoon
30th November 2004, 05:05
Originally posted by Douglas Wylie


Thats what it looks like to us outsiders, who you fight in front of incessantly as if you need some sort of judgement, ruling, or recognition from us.



Thats my "ruling", if you dont want it- dont seek it by fighting it out in front of me.

I do not and will not lose sleep over the opinions of others. I could give a rip about what others think. Legitimacy and authority are not matters of opinion.

shieldcaster
30th November 2004, 07:02
Not to diliberately get myself caught in the cross-fire here, but I think this does boil down to a 'difference of perspective' issue--at least between those of us who are not either: a) Iizasa-san or b) the (we'll call it) 'Sugino-ha' representative.

First, I am not a practitioner of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu (not for lack of trying), so I am in no way trying to speak for what is discussed in the dojo--either in Narita or Washington. That is obviously between you guys in the know. I do not know what is discussed behind closed doors or in the big meetings or who said what to who 20 years ago. Secondly, this is an unfortunately public issue, and one that has been discussed at length on numerous threads and fora. It is also obviously a topic of interest to about everyone in here. Though it does seem a bit quasi-soap opera-ish at times, it is no doubt a very important issue to those directly involved.

The 'difference of perspective' arises in the arguments of those who are in here, ergo, not the Soke or Shihanke or whatever you'd call the guy in charge of Sugino-san's students. It seems to me--the outsider--that (we'll call the opposing teams in this match the TSKSR Tigers and the Sugino-ha Sabres--this is not an attempt to disrespect anyone at all, it is simply an attempt to add a bit of light-heartedness into the fray :D ) the Tigers are saying that the Sabres do not have any verifiable (legality should not ever play into koryu matters, but Dr. Bodiford has posted some great stuff on that subject) right to CLAIM that they are teaching or training [orthodox] TSKSR. The Sabres, as well as a few non-practitioners, are saying that this is really not an issue. NOT that it is not an issue in reality, but that it is not an issue to them.

The Sabres seem to be taking a rather pragmatic stance in this--as far as I can tell. To them, it does not seem to really bother anyone [of the Sabres] that they may not have 'permission' or 'blessings' to do what they do. They are happy to be training techniques that have some authentic roots. NOW here is the problem with that course of action: they are telling the world that they are training and teaching Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. The Sabres are either failing entirely to see why the Tigers would have a problem with this, or they simply do not care. Neither, I think, is good.

If the Sabres do not understand, then it seems a few people could sit down and try to 'splain it in small words for easier understanding. If the Sabres do not care, then it gets a bit messy. Legality schmeegality. This would be an honor issue. If you do not honor the wishes of the ansestor of the founder of the ryu you have devoted yourself to, and thumb your nose at him and HIS ryu, then you have missed some fundamental chapters in the training manual.

Now from the Sabre perspective, I can totally dig that you got yourself some rockin' moves, and they have a decorated past, and you aren't too concerned over whether some old guy back in Japan has sealed your training with a kiss--or your blood. So, what's with the selling point? No one gonna come round and learn your fancy techniques unless you put TSKSR on the sign out front? If you are not concerned about legitimacy and tradition and loyalty and you are happy to train technique for the sake of training or praticality, then why not throw in some Kali and groundfighting and call it Jeet Kune Do (with hakama:eek: )?

So, the Tigers and their coach and owner don't like that you are selling training that is distinctly Tiger training. And you know this. You may not agree that it is a bad thing that you are doing--though you won't get sued--but you are not Tigers, you are Sabres and seemingly proud of it. I would think that you would try to claim some glory for yourself instead of grabbing at the coattails of others. TSKSR has only got fifteen minutes like the rest of us, and it doesn't have a whole lot more to share, especially without permission.

The Tigers (excluding the coach and owner) should realize that the Sabres simply see things from a different perspective than you. That does not make it right, or legal. We are trying to be warriors here, so let's look at this a little more tactically. They do not hear you, or are just not listening. If you feel that this is something that you need to attend to, then get your Soke's blessing and go for it. Otherwise, none of this circular arguing is really sharpening anyone's skill or sword. Find a way you can communicate or nomunicate :beer: to get this worked out, or just leave it.

It doesn't seem to be the responsibility of anyone in here to try to get this sorted, but I think everyone is anxious to try. No one wants to see this spiral down into a ninpo fiasco. There is certainly a way for everyone to see eye yo eye--not that that means compromising, there is no compromise here--maybe just nail down some definitions.

This is certainly not the first TSKSR guy who has gone off to do his own thing, but I think historically that guy changed the name of his school--does this seem elementary to anyone else:confused: ?

Okay, I'm gonna crawl back to my foxhole to catch another round of fire. I would be interested to get a set of the books initially mentioned on this thread if anyone's got any cheap.

Douglas Wylie
30th November 2004, 09:13
Originally posted by ChrisMoon
Then call it Sugino-ha Katori Shinto Ryu.

This is not an unreasonable request.

Is there a reason you can not attribute your art to Sugino in some form or fashion- at the very least you guys could put "as taught by..." with all his credentials, somewhere on your website.

Dan Harden
30th November 2004, 13:49
To be clear, I do NOT post on this matter or any other to garner any approval from anyone. There is no "argument in public" going on. I post on the matter to let men and women (who may be seaking) know what is going on. Some readers of good intent may be uninformed about matters of Koryu, so this is an opportunity to explain things in simple terms.
E-budo has many failings, but it has also served to inform many interested readers about the truth of many men in Budo; both good and bad. I have seen many bash E-budo for what it has become and in many respects they are right. But I would be remiss not to mention the many pages of excellent, well researched and informed opinion, and commentary on Budo that are available here (more in the writings of the early years- then now). This information has been put to good use to expose fraud, build a base of accurate information and enable introductions to occur. Thus, it has allowed many to seak out excellent teaching. All this in the face of page after page of nonsense. I for one am hoping that more people then we give credit to have a fairly intact filter for nonsense.

As for Koryu theivery and immoral use of an arts name and technique-from my vantage point I don't imagine it will be resolved through internet information-but it certainly helps.

I happen to believe that most adult men and women do not have to have morals and integrity explained to them. The integrity and character of members of those in Koryu (never an absolute) I have met thus far speaks for itself.

Cheers
Dan

Douglas Wylie
30th November 2004, 15:00
Originally posted by ChrisMoon
I could give a rip about what others think.
Originally posted by Dan Harden
I do NOT post on this matter or any other to garner any approval from anyone.

Of course not.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Dan Harden
There is no "argument in public" going on.
Of course not.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by ChrisMoon
Why in the heck would I contact an aiki dojo for info on KSR? Has it not been repeatedly stated by both the Soke of TSKSR and Otake Sensei that there are no authorized dojos outside of Narita???
Originally posted by ChrisMoon
If I wanted info on TSKSR I would contact the sole authority for TSKSR in the world.
Originally posted by ChrisMoon
I am just offering the thread starter the idea that if he is interested in TSKSR that maybe the best place to go in the world would be the sole authority.
Originally posted by ChrisMoon
My whole point was to direct the person to the legitimate source for TSKSR.
Originally posted by ChrisMoon
It is prety cut and dried unless you are saying that what Otake Sensei has told me personally is a lie. Otake Sensei has told me that there is no one outside of the main dojo that is allowed to give rank.
Originally posted by ChrisMoon
If he says they do not have they authority then they do not have the authority.
Originally posted by Dan Harden
Point of View? Do you think this can be reduced to a "point of view?" To wit-No one is allowed to teach with out the expressed consent of the Soke.
Originally posted by Dan Harden
One family, one name- From the inception of the art in 1447, till now-owns their own family art.
Originally posted by ChrisMoon
Actually only one group can lay claim to the name
Originally posted by ChrisMoon
I was curious as to when you did your keppan at the Katori Shrine? Remind me to bring your name up with Otake Sensei when I drop off some books and a letter to him.

Nope, no arguing is going on here.:up:And you dont care what we think, either.:up:

You only stated the same fact many, many times... reading it once per thread is informative... but many times, who are you trying to convince and why are you trying to convince them. We hear you and understand your position perfectly, however, we do not ignore Sugino and his students because of your politics.

The school split and the name serves a descriptive purpose for both the main line and Sugino ha- in the court of public opinion.

cxt
30th November 2004, 15:32
Guys

This may have been mentioned before, but if the Sugino group really deos not care about the "whole legit thing" (my paraphrase and shameless theft of anothers article title)

Then can't the Sugino group just drop the use of Katori from their name??

Just call it something else?

That way they will not be preceived as "borrowing" something that is owned by another.

Chris Thomas

Douglas Wylie
30th November 2004, 16:39
This is really a burr under your saddle, isnt it.

It is hardly unusual for the name of a martial art to take on a descriptive role in the identification of exponents regardless of which branch they are in.

Kodokan judo > Judo

MJER > All the various branches (we had to endure it, so, welcome to the club, boys)

Shindo Muso Ryu > all the various branches

etc...

Katori Shinto ryu > Nope, we have a soke. (as if they are the only ones to ever have one)

Ya know if they had a little "wa" there wouldnt be 2 branches.

But alas, I am just a bystander- I will try not to post on this topic again.

erik verhagen
30th November 2004, 23:33
A bit of history that maybe will clarify the situation a bit about all the discussions about Sugino's right to teach the art and use the name TSKSR

When in 1897 the 18th Soke( Iizasa Morisada) died with no sons to continue the art, there was a problem. With the marriage of one of the daughters the bloodline was continued with the 19th soke (Iizasa Kinjiro). The 20th Soke is a direct son of Kinjiro.

After the dead of the 18th Soke there were nine high graduated teachers of the art left who passed the art on.

Y.Sugino was a member of the kobudo kenkyukai group of the Kodokan.Master J.Kano made an deal with the TSKSR that 4 teachers would give instructions there( N. Tamai, S.kuboki, T.Ito and I.Shiina)
Y.Sugino continued to study the art from 1928 for more than a decade with Shiina sensei.

After a demonstrationin 1940 before the Japanese prins Nashimoto the 19th Soke officially reconized Y.Sugino as a TSKSR teacher.His dojo in Kawasaki was now an official branch of the TSKSR. The 19th soke even wrote in Sugino's book, were he stated that he liked the art to be more open to a general public.

Master R.Otake studied the art from 1940 with Y. Hayashi sensei and was appointed Menkyo Kaide shihan by the 20th soke.

The discussion is about legimacy of teaching the art.

The Sugino dojo is an officialy branch dojo of the TSKSR appointed by the 19th soke so in that sense they are official. Is this also accepted by the 20th Soke i don't know, but i don't think they were really happy with this situation.


Sorry for my bad English but i had to translate this bit of information.

Erik Verhagen

Martyn van Halm
1st December 2004, 04:11
Because you didn't look close enough?

Both Sugino Yukihiro sensei and Hatakeyama Goro sensei teach in Japan and abroad.

Neil Hawkins
1st December 2004, 10:17
Gentlemen,

This discussion has been held on numerous occasions in the past and I don't think we are in a position to resolve it in any way here.

How about we get back to the topic of the thread and discuss the merit of the books.

I have the set and find them an interesting insight into the art, they are not in any way an instruction manual, and should not be used as such, but they do outline some of the tactics and philosophies of TSKSR.

They are a good addition to any collection, but I wouldn't pay some of the prices I have seen on the web.

Volume 1 looks at the origins of the art, then goes into some of the Iaijutsu and Bojutsu. Volume 2 looks at character formation and then the Kenjutsu principles and techniques. Finally, volume 3 looks at the elements of Heiho, finshes off sword and looks at Naginatajutsu and Sojutsu.

There are a number of disciplines that are not covered and I'm sure no "secrets" of the school are given away.

All-in-all a joy to read, full of interesting stuff.

Regards

Neil

W.Bodiford
7th December 2004, 07:25
Neil Hawkins (12-01-2004 04:17 AM ) wrote:
How about we get back to the topic of the thread and discuss the merit of the books.
I find it very interesting how discussion of Otake's book seems almost inevitably to digress into questions of legitimacy, lineage, and affiliation (etc.) of so-called TSKSR groups around the globe. The books themselves actually can be read as though they participate in this same kind of discussion. It just so happens that the 3 volume set by Otake Risuke titled Mukei bunkazai Katori shintoryu (English title, The Deity and the Sword: Katori Shintoryu) was published in 1977. That same year saw the reprint of a book by Sugino Yoshio and Ito Kikue titled Tenshin shoden Katori shintoryu budo kyohan (A Textbook of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shintoryu Martial Training; originally published 1941). Since both of these books appeared (or re-appeared) in print during the same year, they were practically in dialog with one another. For this reason the contrasts between them can be very telling.

First, Otake's 3 volume book is NOT a textbook. In fact, it states (direct quote): "The Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu Prohibits any person who does not hold a teaching license (Kyoshi menkyo) from using the contents of this book as a manual for the instruction of others in the techniques of this ryu, and to use the name of this ryu in any manner whatsoever." Rather than trying to provide a guide to the practice of TSKSR, therefore, it strives to document the character of TSKSR martial training. Moreover, it contains many photographs and brief essays that emphasize the geographic location where TSKSR developed and continues to this day. For example, there are photos and descriptions of Iizasa Ienao's gravesite, the Iizasa family training hall, the Katori Grand Shrine, and so forth. All of these elements suggest that TSKSR exists only in that corner of Chiba Pref. Finally, the book states (in the Japanese language section) that in 1960 when the Japanese government first recognized TSKSR the government named 3 people as the embodiment of TSKSR: Iizasa Yasusada (20th generation soke), Hayashi Yazaemon (Otake's teacher), and Otake Risuke. This tidbit of information clearly is included to announce to anyone who might be interested that no one else can represent TSKSR or use that name. Otake's volumes never mention Sugino by name. This deliberate omission ("death by silence"), along with the other features mentioned above, draws a clear contrast with Sugino.

I do not own a copy of book by Sugino and Ito. I remember reading it in the bookstores at the time when it was reprinted and thinking to myself that it might be worth owning if only because it seems so strange compared to what Otake had published. In those days, though, I could not afford to purchase books just for their historical oddity. The book originally had appeared in 1941. As indicated by its title, it is a textbook with instructions describing how kata should be performed. If I remember correctly, the preface (I guess it was by the 19th generation soke) draws a direct link to Japan's on-going war effort and the hope that widespread training in TSKSR would contribute to Japanese military success. Similar sentiments were common in books of the war period. Even though in those days I had no basis for a reasoned judgment, the instructions in the book struck me as being overly simplified and watered down for mass consumption. This simplified style probably reflected Sugino's background with the Kodokan, which had helped pioneer modern methods for the rapid acquisition of martial techniques. Given the military temper of the times, one can well imagine that the soke of the time would have felt that it was his patriotic duty to endorse Sugino's approach. And one can also imagine that after the war ended he might have wanted to withdraw that endorsement. Who knows?

In short, Otake's volumes are like tourist guidebook to a famous whiskey distillery. They are designed to make readers want to visit the distillery in person and to imbibe a dram of rare, well-aged single malt whisky served fresh from the barrel. They advertises a taste and place that exists nowhere else. Sugino's book, if memory serves me correctly, is more akin to a "do it yourself guide" to brewing bathtub gin. Each type of book serves a different purpose. Each type will find its own audience. And may each audience enjoy their own pleasures. At one time it might have served some purpose for both books to share a common name, as if emphasizing that bathtub gin can be made witht the same recipe as used at the distillery. For today's audience, though, using the same recipe (even if it is the same) is beside the point. Today's readers want to learn how to distinguish imitations from what can be found only at the distillery. For that purpose, Otake's volumes can be recommended.

nicojo
7th December 2004, 16:08
For that purpose, Otake's volumes can be recommended.

Except that when I saw them in a store for the first time yesterday, each one was $275!!! And they only had Vol. 2 and 3. Amazon/Abe-books/ebay are all the same price right now. No, I didn't lay down 550 dollars in lieu of rent, but I kinda wanted to...

Thank you for the post Prof. Bodiford. A very good critical read. The books looked very interesting--maybe one of these days I'll be offered a research stipend...Well maybe I should work on tenure status first ;).

pacocomeron
8th December 2004, 11:27
[you wrote
He has told anyone who asks, in both private conversations and interviews, that the Soke has authorised ONE man to teach outside Japan, Phil Relnick (perhaps the Italian gentleman also, I can't remember).)


Mr. Finny
Only to tell to you that I am not Italian. I am Spanish and indeed I have the permission of the Soke and of the Shihan Otake sensei to teach. But I believe that these matters are reserved and only people to emit trials should be those that I have mentioned previously.I don't want to contribute to increase these polemics. Please consider this small explanation like my first and last exhibition in this matter.Sincerely.

Francisco Comerón.

shieldcaster
15th December 2004, 00:43
So, let's say that someone wanted to get Sugino's book because of its 'historical oddity', where might one begin to look for it?

I'd love to get Otake's books, but for their 'price oddity'.:eek:

Jock Armstrong
15th December 2004, 09:20
They are getting a tad expensive. I got my copies in the mid eighties and they were an outlandish 470.00 Aust then. They are damn good though.........

Jock Armstrong
15th December 2004, 09:24
Ooops- that was meant to be $70.00.

Steve Delaney
15th December 2004, 09:31
In the mid-eighties in the UK, they were about twenty six pounds a volume. Mine are all softback with the orange cover. I would have loved to have gotten the black hardback versions.

carl mcclafferty
16th December 2004, 17:30
Folks
I remember when Otake Sensei decided to give Francisco permission to teach, it was before the only other person authorized "Phil Relnick". Both are excellent practitioners and well respected by Otake Sensei and the Soke. If you get a chance to train with them, you shouldn't miss the opportunity.

There are still Dojo with Sugino ha in Japan and one of Otake's prior students also teaches on his own. But I never heard Otake Sensei utter a bad word about them, even when I asked about them. I trained for awhile but got too wrapped up in Sekiguchi Ryu Batto Jutsu, which I really love. Last comment on TSKSR!

Carl McClafferty
PS I have the three volumne set in hard back addressed to me from Otake Sensei, guess I better keep it safe. :~)

shieldcaster
17th December 2004, 01:18
Ya know, Carl, Christmas is coming up. And I could send you a few bucks for photocopies:eek:

Merry Christmas:p

Brian Owens
30th December 2004, 11:53
Originally posted by Steve Delaney
...I would have loved to have gotten the black hardback versions. I used to have the three-volume set in the hardbound edition (but I think the covers were blue, not black. Could be confusing with Draeger's books though). All three, along with many other books, were destroyed in a flood, and at the time I didn't have the resources to replace them. Had I known then how rare and valuable they would become I would have scrimped and scavenged to come up with the funds for replacement.

I now have them in softcover, and consider them a valuable part of my library. I particularly like the fact that they are bilingual, since I am beginning my study of the Japanese language.

As stated above, they are not "training manuals," but rather texts on the history and traditions of one of Japan's "Intangible Cultural Assets."