PDA

View Full Version : Where have all the ryuha gone?



Timothy.G.B.
25th October 2004, 21:06
Where have all the ryuha and Okinawan karate people gone? There used to be a lot more traffic in this forum and now it seems like it has died.

Anyone willing to offer any theories as to why?

Here are a couple that I will offer:

1) All the okinawan stylists are too busy training their karate to post in an online forum (I know this is definitely the case for me...oh wait, I'm posting right now...oops :))

2) All the trolls have been chased back under their bridges and there is nothing controversial to discuss anymore

3) Everyone is waiting to see if someone will say something worthy of replying to

What do you think?

Best,
Tim Black

Gene Williams
25th October 2004, 21:31
I don't know...I kind of miss the good discussions about actual Okinawan martial arts. I usually get sucked into some dumb political discussion over in the lounge. I think a lot of us get tired of that and, when there isn't much talk on this forum, just don't come around as much. My impression is that ninja kids rule e-budo mostly. There is some pretty good quality sword talk, but I am not a swordsman, and there is a considerable number of wannabees and nuts. So, many folks don't come around as much as they used to.

2groggy
25th October 2004, 23:00
What's the distinction between this forum and the Gendai Budo - Karate forum? As karate is originally an Okinawan art, why aren't these the same thing?

Timothy.G.B.
26th October 2004, 00:49
This may be a tough one to answer without getting into politics but suffice to say that much of the karate that is considered "modern Japanese karate" is a different egg than a lot of Okinawan karate.

If you bring too much old school Okinawan conversation to Gendai Budo you might be asked to come back to this forum. One particular difference might be between say JKA Shotokan and Chibana-ha Shorin ryu as some people do it. There are enough differences, and a few similarities, that probably warrant there being a separate forum.

No one in either forum disputes the fact that karate comes from Okinawa, but there are a lot of things that are exported from their country of origin that change considerably in their new home. Just think of the differences between North American style hockey (NHL) and European or International style hockey. Both hockey but different ways to play the game. Or the difference between Canadian Football and American Football.

A poor analogy with lots of holes but I tried...:)

Best,
Tim Black

Gene Williams
26th October 2004, 01:37
Gendai karate is generally catch-all term for people doing whatever they please and calling it karate. I do not consider Shotokan to be "gendai karate." But, it isn't Okinawan karate, either. Gendai karate is really a hodge podge of different stuff.

Rob Alvelais
26th October 2004, 01:39
Welcome Back, Gene!

Rob

Shikiyanaka
26th October 2004, 10:21
Hi,

my thoughts on discussing Ryûkyû/Okinawa martial arts, also I am mostly a Karate and Kobudô fan, are the following:

Japan, in comparison to Okinawa - or historical Ryûkyû - is relatively easy to understand. One reason for that is that they always pretend it's their own, so you don't have to compare with whole Asia. And you only have to look from the 20. century onwards. And it is all described sufficiently in Western languages.

Okinawa and ALL corresponding topics are much to complicated for most of the people, sometimes for Okinawans themselves.

Looking at Okinawa using "local history" only is not enough. So naturally it gets complicated with Chinese, Japanese and Ryûkyûan (or Liukiu , Loochoo, Lowchow, Lieou-Kieou, Duchu, Riukiu etc. pp.) history, language etc, having become part of it.

Tode, or Tôde, or better Tôdi, or even more correct Tôdî, or Te or Tih, or Tî, or Karate, or Karate-jutsu or Karate-dô (in Ryûkyûan, this would have to be Charadi-dû or so)... it is all so confusing.

And there is no terminology agreed upon concerning Ryûkyûan martial arts. And if there is not one language, how can there be a discussion?

The really controversial thing in things relating to Okinawa, is that - while everything there is said to be smaller than elsewhere, including the martial arts - the cultural part is a big one. As long as Okinawan martial arts are talked about only in terms of Jutsu (or oki. dî), there is no point. The Okinawan Bushi where not as the Japanese Bushi. The Okinawan Anji where not as the Japanese Daimyô. Nothing like that can be taken 1 to 1 from Japan to Okinawa. And the martial art, well, was it originally developed for the battlefield, for self-defence, or for the stage, or for impressing the girls :), or if all of these, which had the biggest fraction at which time? And how came it, that Okinawan martial arts posthumly became a deadly martial art, developed by "warriors" while it originally was a simple performing art, a martial dance?

Isn't Okinawan Karate as much Gendai as Japanese Karate? Isn't it possible that in Japan there has been conserved the Okinawan Karate of the early 20th century, while everything that dates back earlier (i.e. Ryûkyû kingdom times) has been lost? Isn't it possible that the traditional Okinawan Karate was only also brought to life by the Japanese Budôka involved? Or is it trade-product based developed on the needs and wishes of customers of post-WWII service-men and other? Wasn't it the military personell from around the world that knew all the bunkai to the techniques???

Gene Williams
26th October 2004, 12:01
In a word...NO.

Shikiyanaka
26th October 2004, 12:17
Where have all the ryuha and Okinawan karate people gone? There used to be a lot more traffic in this forum and now it seems like it has died.

Anyone willing to offer any theories as to why?


This may be the reason:

In a word...NO.

Shorinman
26th October 2004, 15:04
Originally posted by Timothy.G.B.
Where have all the ryuha and Okinawan karate people gone? There used to be a lot more traffic in this forum and now it seems like it has died.

Anyone willing to offer any theories as to why?

Here are a couple that I will offer:

1) All the okinawan stylists are too busy training their karate to post in an online forum (I know this is definitely the case for me...oh wait, I'm posting right now...oops :))

2) All the trolls have been chased back under their bridges and there is nothing controversial to discuss anymore

3) Everyone is waiting to see if someone will say something worthy of replying to

What do you think?

Best,
Tim Black

For me it's #1, this includes time with the family.

Also #3.

I think we are all here, it's because of number 3. Everyone likes to read more than post. Before joining, I was a lurker here for a couple of years.

CEB
26th October 2004, 16:39
Oh where, oh where has the ryuha all gone?
Oh where, oh where can they be?
With their punches so swift and their kiai so strong.
Oh where, oh where can they be?

:D

Gene Williams
26th October 2004, 16:57
Old Ed Boyd had a ryu, kiai, kiai, o.
And in this ryu he had Goju, kiai, kiai, o.
With a huff-puff here and a huff-puff there
Here a huff, there a puff, everywhere a huff puff
Old Ed Boyd had a ryu, kiai, kiai, o.

Old Ed Boyd had a ryu, kiai, kiai, o.
And in this ryu he had ryu he had Shito, kiai, kiai, o.
With a Shuri here and a Naha there,
Here a Shuri, there a Naha everywhere a Shuri/Naha,
Old Ed Boyd had a ryu, kiai, kiai, o.

Old Ed Boyd had a ryu, kiai, kiai, o.
And in this ryu he had Shotokan, kiai, kiai, o.
With a screwed up kata here and a sword stance there,
Here a straight line, there a straight line everywhere a straight line,
Old Ed Boyd had a ryu, kiai, kiai, o.

Doug Daulton
27th October 2004, 02:06
LOL gents. Good stuff there. :)

Doug Daulton
27th October 2004, 02:20
Originally posted by Shikiyanaka
Isn't Okinawan Karate as much Gendai as Japanese Karate?One could make this argument and, from a purely semantic perspective, they would be correct. I won't bore everyone with the well-trod history of the adoption/origin of the word "karate". Suffice to say that under this name, all Okinawan ryuha are technically modern and therefore "gendai".

That said, most Okinawan ryuha have far, far older roots and, if faithfully passed on, have much more practical, "old school" sensibilities. Sadly, it has been my experience that most Okinawan ryuha taught in the West are negatively influenced by either the fiscal demands of keeping the dojo doors open or the larger societal expectations of teaching more ostentatious, flashy techniques.

As a result, we end up with many bastardizations of legitimate ryuha, no matter how well-intentioned the teachers were to begin with.

I've run two public dojo, both with the overhead of rent, power and water bills. I understand the pressure. However, my fellow teachers and I refused to compromise the values given us. As a result, both dojo are now closed and I only recently stopped paying the bills on the last one, which closed in 2000.

I have no regrets. I will teach again. But this time, it will be in the converted basement or garage of the home I own. That is how most, if not all, quality dojo in Okinawa are run. Funny how that works out. :)

OK. Rant over. ;)

Gene Williams
27th October 2004, 03:57
Ditto.

dsomers
27th October 2004, 04:48
Doug ,

I too have felt the same way for a long time about the Karate here in the states . Most instructors care more about making the next buck , then they do about the person in general , & have no clue of Shin . Most Dojo , there is no student-teacher relationship , like that of in Okinawa , & I think it is very sad . Though I spent only a short time in Okinawa , I felt very welcomed while I was there , & hurt very much to leave . However , I dont think my wife would of liked it very much , if I didnt return home to her , lol .

David

dori_kin_86
27th October 2004, 04:49
I'm still here, but I'm looking to my training for info on Okinawan MA. I do have one questiong; what is Uchina-di?

Doug Daulton
27th October 2004, 06:05
Originally posted by dori_kin_86
What is Uchina-di? Uchina-di literally translates to Okinawan Hand. The term is used to describe the old school martial arts of Okinawa. Uchina-di is the antecedent to modern Karate.

Doug Daulton
27th October 2004, 06:13
Originally posted by dsomers
Most instructors care more about making the next buck , then they do about the person in general ... While I've certainly met the Okani (money) "Sensei", this is not neccesarily what I mean. I think there are a lot of well-intentioned people who open dojos but then succumb to the pressures of dojo ownership.

It is not an easy thing to do and a lot of folks get in over their heads. Before they know it, they've compromised the principles they opened the dojo to promote.

Shikiyanaka
27th October 2004, 11:21
Sadly, it has been my experience that most Okinawan ryuha taught in the West are negatively influenced by either the fiscal demands of keeping the dojo doors open or the larger societal expectations of teaching more ostentatious, flashy techniques.

My club is 30 Euro a month, which is comparatively expensive. The training room is located in a bodybuilding gym, and I can use the gym as much as I want.
However, usually clubs in Germany are part of local "Turnverein" (gymnastic club), many of which were founded in the 19th century. For example my Turnverein, which I attended in youth before starting soccer, was found in 1877. Every city has lots and lots of such "Turnverein." Those clubs are members of national athletic governing body and have the right to use the local gymnasiums. Usually they have 2 or more gymnasiums which they can use at certain zimes. The monthly fee for a member of such a Turnverein is about 5 to 10 Euro. It is not important looking for money. It is of public utility and thus it is supported.

Doug Daulton
27th October 2004, 17:35
Originally posted by Shikiyanaka
It is not important looking for money. It is of public utility and thus it is supported. Andreas,

That is a great system, you are fortunate.

Timothy.G.B.
27th October 2004, 20:03
Thanks to all who have replied and come out of the "woodwork". It is great to have some more conversation in this forum.

Sincerely,
Tim Black

Robby Bray
28th October 2004, 03:30
Stay true to yourself and what you believe. Five or six training the right way is far more rewarding than babysitting a hundred.

dsomers
28th October 2004, 03:59
Robby ,

Please email me when you get a chance , I tried emailing you , but it bounced back .
Sorry for notifying you this way .

David

Liam Cognet
31st October 2004, 22:39
Yeah! My sensei teaches from a dojo at him home. No rent = low training fees and no need to attract additional students for more funds. However, we also train once a week in a church hall closer to the city because sensei does live a bit out of the way.

My old Shito Ryu dojo closed down due to cost of running versus training fees. ($25.00AUD per month for 4 sessions per week was pretty good).