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E.elemental
26th October 2004, 19:00
Hello! :)

In a related thread the company Crane Mountin is mentioned. And from what I hear their weapons are really good. Is there anyone out there that has eny experience of their Kata Kama, with 330 steel. I dont know much about steel but is it any good, I want the possibility to sharpen my Kama razor-sharp. I know of course that there are limitations of a weapon and you should not use it for what its not intended. But could they take some beating? And why is there no price, I understand that it depends on with what kind of wood I want to my Nunchaku and so on. But it would help to get some idea anyway.

Or have I missed anything? :o

I`ll send an e-mail to them with more specific questions, but every opinion on their Kama or other weapon is most welcome! :D




http://www.crane-mountain.com/

tsurutengu
28th October 2004, 01:53
have never handled any of the Crane Mountain weapons. Their website has some nice pictures but it is a little difficult to discern quality from photos.

330 stainless steel, don't know why they would select 330, is basically like all 300 series CRES (corrosion resistant steel) and that is it's mush metal. Stays nice and 'shiney' but is soft. It will take a lot of beating and I guess that's OK as long as you beat it back to something resembling it's original shape. Cres 301 and 302 can be work hardened (used for springs) but you would lose all that if there is any welding involved after work hardening. A realistic Kama would have to be made from at a medium carbon or high carbon steel (1050 to 1090) and heat treated. Some of the tool steels (O1, L6, S7, etc.) would work much better.

You might get them razor sharp but it wouldn't last.

I own a pair, right and left hand versions, of BUGEI Kama that I am happy with. Their big draw back is they don't have the look of a peasant weapon. But, then again, all the ones I have researched as weapons don't resemble farm implements either.

Hope that answers some of your questions.

Mark Galvin

Robby Bray
28th October 2004, 03:11
I have to disagree with you on that one. The key is if it is welded. The blades are not welded anywhere and if hardened after being sharpened it will hold its edge. They chose a 330 stainless because it is what most high quality knife blades used to be made of. They have a new material now that is very popular and I have forgotten what they call it now, but it is quite a bit more expensive. Remember that materials such as 300 series stainless, are "mush" materials before they are hardened. If they were not "mush" material, the toolsmith would pull his hair out trying to shape it and make it work with him. Kinda like a potter has to heat his clay creation in a kiln to harden it and make it strong.

tsurutengu
28th October 2004, 15:42
Originally posted by Robby Bray
I have to disagree with you on that one.You definitely are entitled to your opinion
The key is if it is welded. The blades are not welded anywhere and if hardened after being sharpened it will hold its edge.Nice to know they are not welded anywhere.

As I originally stated, 300 series stainless steel can not be hardened thru heat treatment. Cold working is the only method of hardening (i.e., you have to pound on it).

They chose a 330 stainless because it is what most high quality knife blades used to be made of.Since when?

Had you written 410, 420, 440A, 440B, 440C, OR 440V I would have to agree... as far as stainless steel blades are concerned.

Maybe the website is in error listing 330 stainless steel.

They have a new material now that is very popular and I have forgotten what they call it now, but it is quite a bit more expensive.
Try ATS34, 154CPM, D2, A2, S7, or BG42. BG42 is the only relatively new one (from Timken and used for balls, rollers, needles and races in their line of rolling element bearings).

Remember that materials such as 300 series stainless, are "mush" materials before they are hardened. If they were not "mush" material, the toolsmith would pull his hair out trying to shape it and make it work with him.
Make a blade from mush and you will only have a mush blade. Generally all materials are worked in the annealed or normalized state. I prefer ones the will harden thru heat treatement and not soften.

Kinda like a potter has to heat his clay creation in a kiln to harden it and make it strong.
Big difference between baking clay and the phase transitions of carbon or alloy steels.

As an aside, all stainless steels are not stainless. They all will eventually rust, even after passivation or electro-polishing.

(My comments to your statements are only intended to correct what I perceive as misconceptions of material properties and not as a personal attack on you)

Mark Galvin

E.elemental
28th October 2004, 18:55
I didnt even know that there were so many kinds out there. But I must say that this was the kind of info I was looking for. :)


To keep this simple, what kind of steel should you use for Kata-Kama, nothing really expensive. Plain, simple and good? Prefarebly not stainless since I have heard that the steel is hard to sharepen, I dont care about a shiny finish the slightest. :cool:

CEB
28th October 2004, 20:02
AISI metal designations are a mess to understand. I hate them. You get same kind of messes when talking about tubing used in bike frames.

Use whatever you want for kama blades. It doesn't matter. You aren't going to use the things anyway. Well I have used mine in the garden a time or two.

If you practice applications against bo you may start to have issues. Most problems I have seen have had to do with handle or construction failure.

When you stop a Bo strike how big of a bite do you take with the kama?

What does your teacher use for kama? Some use a lightweight hardware store sickles some use those heavy battle axe kama from Shureido. Both are good. When in Rome.

Gene Williams
28th October 2004, 21:02
I use the heavy Shureido kama. They feel more like a weapon and are constructed pretty well. The blocks we use tend to catch the bo with the blade in a continuous sweeping motion (from inside out) and continue sweeping the bo away and down while cutting the attacker with the other kama. Kama will mess up a good bo, so use old ones for partner work. I have seen kata where the bo is blocked with the handle of the kama against the forearm, but we don't do that. A really hard strike with a bo is something to deal with if you never have. I always had my arm bruised or jarred really badly blocking that way. That seems to me to be too static a way to block. Better to move into the bo or sweep it away as mentioned above.

CEB
28th October 2004, 21:40
We wrap our kama bo with this heavy black tape. That helps with the splintering and stuff and seems to give them a little longer life span. We only use these for practicing with kama.

E.elemental
28th October 2004, 22:49
Firstly I must point out that my knowledge of Kama in all forms are limited, I have only done Kama-basics in seminars. :)

My Sensei used until receantly Shureido Kama for Kata and a pair of wooden one for Kumite. Now he uses a Reimondo Kama (I have posted a picture of this in another thread) which has a metal blade, but this is not sharp, the edge is quite thick. This he uses for both Kata and kumite. And of course there are no point on the blade, they may be hard but its nearly impossible to cut another person with them.

Until recently I to used Shureido Kata Kama, I like them. But 3 weeks ago I bought another pair, also them from Reimondo. I am very pleased with my new Kama, with the exception of the blade. :( its some kind of stainless steel that is very hard to sharpen, and it doesent look good. I want to have the same kind of edge like on my Shureido. And I also want to have the posibillity to use them in my garden, and that means they need to be sharp. :cool: Maybe sounds stupid but I want the possibility to use them for what they were intended, to cut grass. :o

Robby Bray
29th October 2004, 04:20
Hey Mark, your comments really don't surprise me. It sounds like you did a whole lot of research over the web, but still aren't even sure what you even said. It's kinda like everything else in the martial arts world. Confuse the unknowing with a lot of tech terms and then try to force feed them your stuff. You obviously have absotlutely NO, and I repeat NO hands on work with these metals. Sorry, 400 series is not an option. It won't polish out to a mirror finish '[u0goj,
3

+
3.6+2
352+
0.3
+.3-

Robby Bray
29th October 2004, 04:31
Not sure what happened there. BUt anyway this is the exact reason that Gene was wondering why no is responding to these threads anymore. Too many people that don't have a clue as to what they are talking about are posting. And by the way, there really is no difference in my analogy. You make the blade and then heat treat it. No special tricks. Sorry. And as far as the comment on not all stainless steels will not rust. I never said that. Any Carbon steel alloy will rust. And Unfortunatley, the harder you make it, the more carbon you must have in it. The more carbon you have in it, more likely it is to rust. The higher the stainless series number the more carbon it has in it. That is why aluminum is so soft. But I'm sure Mark already knows this.

tsurutengu
29th October 2004, 05:50
Originally posted by Robby Bray
Hey Mark, your comments really don't surprise me. It sounds like you did a whole lot of research over the web, but still aren't even sure what you even said.Sorry to disappoint you but my comments aren't the result of web research. My comments are off the cuff and come from over 40 years of engineering.
It's kinda like everything else in the martial arts world. Confuse the unknowing with a lot of tech terms and then try to force feed them your stuff.Maybe that's how it is in your Martial Arts world. If that is the case you have my condolence.

As to the unknowing, I would suggest you take a trip down to the library and find out for yourself.
You obviously have absotlutely NO, and I repeat NO hands on work with these metals. Sorry, 400 series is not an option. It won't polish out to a mirror finish '[u0goj,
3

+
3.6+2
352+
0.3
+.3- Yes, that must really be obvious.

tsurutengu
29th October 2004, 06:21
Originally posted by Robby Bray
Not sure what happened there. BUt anyway this is the exact reason that Gene was wondering why no is responding to these threads anymore. Too many people that don't have a clue as to what they are talking about are posting.I tend to agree with you, but not for the reasons you perceive.
And by the way, there really is no difference in my analogy. You make the blade and then heat treat it. No special tricks. Sorry.Yup it's that simple. Just pick an alloy that will respond (i.e., harden) to heat treatment.
And as far as the comment on not all stainless steels will not rust. I never said that.Didn't say you did. That is why it was an aside comment. It isn't stainless it is corrosion resistant. Just a terminology pet peeve of mine.
Any Carbon steel alloy will rust.Yes, generally a lot faster than stainless will rust.
And Unfortunatley, the harder you make it, the more carbon you must have in it. The more carbon you have in it, more likely it is to rust.Not a true statement.
The higher the stainless series number the more carbon it has in it.Before you go out on that limb, why don't you try comparing the amount Chrome, Nickel, and Carbon in 300 and 400 series stainless steels.
That is why aluminum is so soft. But I'm sure Mark already knows this. Are you saying aluminum is soft because it has little or no carbon.?

Mark Galvin

Gene Williams
29th October 2004, 11:50
You need to use sharp weapons. Toy weapons for toy martial artists.

Robby Bray
29th October 2004, 12:29
Like so many other 10 Dans in the U.S., you must have mastered yet another art. Engineering has turned into such a generic term nowadays. Kinda like technicians. The original point of this thread was asking about crane mountain weapons. We've been buying them for over four years now and have never had a complaint. If you want a blade to hold its edge get there's will. THe only bad news is that there is about a 1 yr waiting period for them. THat's how backed up they are. The 330 stainless is such a pain to work with it takes forever to get them polished out.

Gene Williams
29th October 2004, 14:24
Crane Mountain weapons are quite good. Several of my students use them and are very pleased.

tsurutengu
29th October 2004, 14:30
Originally posted by Gene Williams
You need to use sharp weapons. Toy weapons for toy martial artists. Tell that to the chrome plated aluminum, baton twirling, disco duck excuse for a Martial Artist being belched from the average McDojo... nah, wouldn't do any good.

However, that doesn't change the validity of your statement.

Mark Galvin

tsurutengu
29th October 2004, 14:43
Originally posted by Robby Bray
Like so many other 10 Dans in the U.S., you must have mastered yet another art.You seem to be long on assumptions and short on facts.
Engineering has turned into such a generic term nowadays. Kinda like technicians.I would agree, you have gotten a fact right. Just like the de-evolution in the Martial Arts from the 1960's, engineering has taken a nose dive.
The original point of this thread was asking about crane mountain weapons. We've been buying them for over four years now and have never had a complaint. If you want a blade to hold its edge get there's will. THe only bad news is that there is about a 1 yr waiting period for them. THat's how backed up they are. The 330 stainless is such a pain to work with it takes forever to get them polished out. Like I stated, I have never handled them. They look descent on the website. I am glad you have never had a complaint. However, in my opinion your satisfaction with the quality of their product doesn't negate my comments on 330 stainless steel.

Mark Galvin

tsurutengu
29th October 2004, 14:53
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Crane Mountain weapons are quite good. Several of my students use them and are very pleased. My comments were not to disparage Crane Mountain, but rather question their choice of material. After all it is their choice and they can make them from anything they please.

Hearing a calmer voice endorse a manufacturer is information worth keeping.

Mark Galvin

tsurutengu
29th October 2004, 15:15
Originally posted by E.elemental
I didnt even know that there were so many kinds out there. But I must say that this was the kind of info I was looking for. :)There are a lot of different materials with just as many applications.
To keep this simple, what kind of steel should you use for Kata-Kama, nothing really expensive. Plain, simple and good?I would recommend a medium carbon steel (about 40 to 50 points of carbon). Readily available in the US, even over the Internet. Cheap, usually about 1/5th the cost of 300 series stainless, and can be heat treated to better than twice the strength.
Prefarebly not stainless since I have heard that the steel is hard to sharepen, I dont care about a shiny finish the slightest. :cool: That's good. I prefer leaving the shiny stuff to the flash in the pan gymnast.

Sharp is a relative term. For Kama I wouldn't worry about being able to shave the hair off your arm.

Mark Galvin

Gene Williams
29th October 2004, 23:20
I agree about 330 steel. Why bother...just use tin. I and my students have never used Crane Mountain kama, only their wooden weapons. One of my students cracked his purple heartwood bo during a particularly hard round of bo kumite. They replaced it...period.

tsurutengu
30th October 2004, 01:41
Originally posted by Gene Williams
I agree about 330 steel. Why bother...just use tin. I and my students have never used Crane Mountain kama, only their wooden weapons. One of my students cracked his purple heartwood bo during a particularly hard round of bo kumite. They replaced it...period. Sounds like a good company to deal with.

Mark Galvin

E.elemental
21st May 2005, 13:11
I got really interested in Crane Mountain so a couple of weeks ago I ordered one standard pair of tonfa of purpleheart and one nunchaku of the same material, also I ordered an Eiku but the deliverytime is severel more weeks from now. I`ll post comments on them as soon as they arrive (and hopefully som pictures), so far I can say that they have neen realy fast in answering all my silly questions by mail. I appreciate that very much. :)

E.elemental
27th May 2005, 17:59
Happy times. So today I recieved my order from Crane Mountain. It was a nunchaku and a tonfa (straight style/heavy duty) both in purpleheart. First I noticed that the nunchaku was great, the measurements and craftmanship was really nice. The tonfa was 1 1/2" to long, well thats better then to short! Also the handle was a bit to long, I dont think they made a mistake, this only illustrates the difficulty when taking measuremants for especially tonfa. I cut of the excessive bit and found the balance still being good, and now when I have done som exercises I think the handle is good also. Perhaps just a tiny tiny bit to long, but I have a feeling that I will be very pleased in the future with this buy.

I dont have a camera available right about now, perhaps I`ll post pictures here upon request if anybody is interested. I have also just made a new order to Crane Mountain. Despite the length problems with the tonfa I am pleased.

TonyU
27th May 2005, 18:52
I look forward to the pictures.
Good craftmanship are hard to come by. As a long time cabitmaker I'm a little more critical though.

E.elemental
3rd June 2005, 16:50
Here is a picture of my order. Although I dont think I can take so much better pictures I can gladly send (to email adress) some more upon request.

Tonfa
Wood: Purpleheart
Heavy duty/straight style

Nunchaku
Wood: Purpleheart
Brass fittings (not visable on this photo)

Shorin Ryuu
29th June 2005, 22:00
I've ordered a purpleheart bo and eiku from Crane Mountain. I am extremely pleased with the bo. The eiku is simply gorgeous, but is slightly too heavy (I have pretty much gotten used to it though).

Most my other weapons are all Murasaki Kobudo.

As far as the kama goes, maybe I am a "toy martial artist", but I have nothing to prove by doing kata with sharp kama. I have a set of kata kama (Murasaki Kobudo) that are dull and a pair of sharp hardware store kama for cutting practice. It is far too easy to cause yourself debilitating hand injury from a slight mistake with a pair of sharp kama. I honestly do not see the point. Sure, it may help you "focus" and "increase blade awareness", but I think a competent person could have focus and awareness regardless of the sharpness of the blade in their hands. Accidents happen, even to the best.

TonyU
30th June 2005, 01:34
I'm sorry I didn't see the pictures earlier. Very nice.
Also I agree with Shorin Ryuu I don't need to train with a sharp pair of kamas either.
I have for years, but no longer do so. And no I haven't had any accidents.

tsurutengu
30th June 2005, 02:40
Sharp, dull, stainless steel or tin, I really think is a matter of personal preference. I would guess what really counts is if you are happy with your tools and you invest the time in understanding them. Especially the latter.

I do not own any Crane Mountain weapons but they appear to be held in high regard by everyone who frequents this forum.

Mark Galvin

E.elemental
28th July 2005, 22:02
At last my new weapons have arrived! :)

Rokkushaku Bo (hickory): I choose their standard diameter 6 feet staff, easy to handle and due to the light weight of it I can handle it very fast.

Rokkushaku Bo (Jatoba): Same measurements as above. Jatoba is quite heavy, I selected the wood knowing that it was heavy, good for building up strength.

Eiku (purpleheart): Their standard adult size, simply great! I rushed to the beach and threw both sand and water with it, worked just fine. The wood is a bit heavy but I wanted it that way. I think I am going to love this eiku.. :p

So this it what I think, really good stuff. Yes a bit heavy but that was my choice, if I wanted lighter material I would have chosen all in hickory. I will try to post some pictures later.

E.elemental
29th July 2005, 21:02
Here are 2 pictures, upon request I`ll gladly send some more. :)

Shorin Ryuu
31st July 2005, 05:52
I love especially how the wood looks so "alive" in the eiku. I'm still getting used to the weight though. It's fine for the Shorinkan eiku kata I know (where the energy seems to start and stop) but less wieldy for some of the others I don't know but have attempted (or maybe just because I didn't know them...). I still like their bo even better though.

E.elemental
17th August 2005, 19:36
Here are a few pics of CM lighter Kama. Although I knew that they would be of light weight they did take me by surprise a bit. I was hoping they would be heavier and have a thicker blade. They are probarbly good for doing Kata but I prefer the more heavy duty weapons, I got a little dissapointed but now I realise that "lighter kama" is reffering to a kama of light weight. :p