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Timothy.G.B.
28th October 2004, 23:23
After thinking about the discussion in the "Where have all the ryuha gone?" thread, this thought occured to me: "What makes my karate Okinawan and why am I posting in the Ryukyuan Unarmed Martial Arts" forum?

It sounds kind of simplistic but it got me thinking. What makes my karate Okinawan tather than Japanese or North American? Here are a few ideas I would like to share:

1) Our Dai Sensei is, himself, Okinawan and he lives in Okinawa

2) The karate that he teaches was taught to him by a lineage of Okinawan teachers who lived in Okinawa dating back to pre-WWII era

3) The karate that my Sensei teaches us looks nothing like most other karate that I have seen in North America, including JKA, SKA etc. Everything we train is "useable" in fighting and is not just for the sake of form.

4) The dojo that I learn in is not militaristic in the sense of "rank and file" type dojos where everyone does everything in unison and there is a lot of group kiai etc.

5) We use a lot of traditional training aids such as machiwara, chiishi etc.

6) We train kakie.

These are just a few thoughts.

Does this mean that my karate is necessarily better than anyone else's? No it doesn't, so please let's not start under that assumption. Is it only these 6 things that make the karate I am learning Okinawan, maybe maybe not. Rather, I am curious to hear from others, what you feel makes your karate "Okinawan"?

Thanks in advance,
Tim Black

2groggy
29th October 2004, 02:23
Well, I score 4 out of 6 for your list.

As a kyu rank all that I can really add is this - "Cuz Mark (I mean Sensei) says so, and I don't know any better". The training is different than that of a couple of other GoJu Ryu dojos where I've trained, but I'll have to take his word for it that it's Okinawan until I see a lot more examples.

Blackwood
29th October 2004, 02:26
So what style is it that you study?

1. Yes. And the head here in North America is from Okinawa.

2. Yes.

3. ? Well, the style I study looks a lot like every other style of karate that I have seen. The kata are a bit different, sometimes totally different, but they are similar.

4. ? We do kata as a group. There is something unbelievably beautiful about seeing a couple hundred people all doing the same kata in unison, with no cadence being called. But each individual has their own style and technique if you will when sparring or working drills.

5. We have makiwara.

6. I've studied Tai Chi and done push hands. We do something similar we call roll wrist.

Ed Gingras
29th October 2004, 12:19
Well, my style - Okinawa Shorin-ryu Matsumura Seito Karate-do is usually classified Okinawan because (1) My Sensei's were Okinawan's (Soken Sensei, Kise Sensei, Akamine Sensei) and (2) I practice and teach the style on Okinawa. The second argument is somewhat weak because non-okinawan styles such as Tae Kwon Do are also taught on Okinawa.

On the question of posting, I don't post much because I spend most of my spare time in the dojo. Most of the other Sensei's I know also do not post much, because it cuts into their practice time.

Edward Gingras

2groggy
29th October 2004, 19:22
Originally posted by Blackwood
So what style is it that you study?
Still Goju Ryu, but the differences between my current dojo and the previous ones are many - no belts, no line-up, punching solid objects instead of air. And the interpretations of the katas are way different. At this dojo, I'd even call them "brutal ugly". One doesn't have to stretch the imagination to work through the bunkai. The self defences that we practice ARE the bunkai. But isn't that the purpose of kata?

Oops, hold that thought. Let's not start another kata thread.

Gene Williams
29th October 2004, 23:28
I have trained Motobu-ha Shito-ryu for about 30 years. Many consider Shito-ryu a Japanese ryu, but it really isn't. Mabuni went to Japan in '27 and his popularity and his ryu exploded in popularity around Osaka. It is one of the larger ryu in Japan, but it is still an Okinawan ryu. There is still much Shito-ryu on Okinawa, and it is very different from the inevitably Japanized versions on the mainland. I think the lineage and the kata are what keeps it Okinawan. We do the kata more like the older Okinawan Shito-ryu...no back stances (as in JKA), not so many straight lines, lighter quicker movements in the Shuri kata, no mawashi geri, lower kicks, still emphasize the Naha kata, more closing with the opponent, more emphasis on shu ha ri, etc.

Timothy.G.B.
30th October 2004, 19:58
Blackwood:

What style do I study?

I am trying to learn Okinawan Shorinryu Karatedo.

Tim Black

Liam Cognet
31st October 2004, 21:47
My style is called 'Okinawan Goju Ryu'. What we practice is apparently derived from the Miyagi Chojun.

We practice all the usual Goju kata and their bunkai, we do hojo undo, we train for practical self defence and apply the kata as such, we do have belt colours, we don't do competition and we don't break boards or blocks of flaming ice with our heads.

Although I am only a 3rd kyu, I am ex-Shito Ryu in which I had a Shodan. I have also trained in Shotokan for a short time and I can say the Shito Ryu was more 'Okinawan'.

desparoz
31st October 2004, 22:36
The delineation between Okinawan and Japanese karate can be difficult.

I practice Australian Shorinjiryu Karate, which is derived from the Shorinjiryu Kenkokan system of Shinan Kori Hisataka (1907-1988). He was a student of Anko Azato, Chotoku Kyan and others on Okinawa, so I guess that points 1 & 2 are satisfied, at least in part.

I say "in part" because Dr Hisataka moved to Japan and established his dojo after WW2, ultimately settling in Tokyo. Apart from Azato and Kyan, he also had significant other influences, notably Japanese Judo and Aikijujutsu, and various Chinese styles.

Shorinjiryu Karate looks nothing like most of the so-called Japanese systems - a lot more hip motion, vertical fist, etc. And dojo training is not anywhere near as militaristic. And our (original) katas differ markedly.

Shorinjiryu Karate has evolved somewhat since the retirement and death of Dr. Hisataka. The Shorinjiryu Kenkokan school is now headed by his son, Hanshi Masayuki Hisataka, an extremely knowledgeable and talented teacher, who I was a personal student of for 2 years. His direction and interest very much lies with the development of Koshiki style competition, which is utilises the Supersafe Anzen Bogu. In my opinion, his priority leans heavily towards Koshiki competition, and this is reflected in the dojo.

Many other Shorinjiryu groups (including Australian Shorinjiryu) do not share the same priority, and concentrate more on the very utilitarian techniques and teachings of the founder. Of course, these groups do compete, but not at the same level of enthusiasm for competitive karate over the utilitarian aspects. So, points 3 & 4 somewhat covered.

On point 5, almost all Shorinjiryu schools use some form of Bogu protective equipment, and emphasise training with "moving makiwara", one that hits back! Dr Hisataka emphasised that one most test their technique.

Makiwara and other tools are used in many Shorinjiryu schools from time-to-time.

On point 6, most of us don't do kakie, if you mean the forearm conditioning. I would not equate this to "Okinawan Karate", but "Okinanan Gojuryu Karate". I am not in any way belittling this - I have a lot of respect for Okinawan Goju. I just don't think its an exercise common to schools of Okinawan Shorin lineage.

However, we do practice a lot of partner drills, including some push hands style stuff.

SO by this score we could be "Okinawan Karate". I don't think its anywhere near as simple as this. I would generally refer to Shorinjiryu as an Okinawan/Japanese style, with a significant Chinese influence. But thats just me.

Excuse the long post - to get to the last paragraph, I needed to build up some background.

Best wishes

Des

TimoS
1st November 2004, 08:13
Originally posted by desparoz
I practice Australian Shorinjiryu Karate, which is derived from the Shorinjiryu Kenkokan system of Shinan Kori Hisataka (1907-1988). He was a student of Anko Azato, Chotoku Kyan and others on Okinawa, so I guess that points 1 & 2 are satisfied, at least in part.


Out of curioisity, why aren't you part of Kenkokan anymore ? How is Australian Shorinjiryu different from Shorinji ryu Kenkokan ?

Myself, I'm practising Shorinji ryu Renshinkan here in Finland and although our style has been strongly influenced by okinawan karate, it is a japanese style. At least I have never heard anyone claim that it is an okinawan style (and to me, it isn't even that important. What is much more important is a good sensei)


I would generally refer to Shorinjiryu as an Okinawan/Japanese style, with a significant Chinese influence. But thats just me.

Well, not just you, because I think along the same lines :)

Timothy.G.B.
1st November 2004, 17:04
Hi Liam:

When I was referring to kakie I am not referring to the arm conditioning, which we also practice.

By kakie, I guess it would be analogous to something like push hands, but since I know nothing about push hands, the comparison is drawn simply because both kakie and push hands involve touching wrists and moving the body in various ways.

In kakie, we don't try to "push" anyone off balance or anything like that (not that push hands necessarily does that either).

Sincerely,

Tim Black

desparoz
1st November 2004, 22:35
Originally posted by TimoS
Out of curioisity, why aren't you part of Kenkokan anymore ? How is Australian Shorinjiryu different from Shorinji ryu Kenkokan ?


Hi.

The reason I am not part of the Kenkokan group, personally, is simply different directions and priorities.

Australian Shorinjiryu, like many Shorinjiryu schools of the Hisataka lineage, is based on Shorinjiryu Kenkokan. However, organisationally, they are separate, and the evolution is different.



Myself, I'm practising Shorinji ryu Renshinkan here in Finland and although our style has been strongly influenced by okinawan karate, it is a japanese style. At least I have never heard anyone claim that it is an okinawan style (and to me, it isn't even that important. What is much more important is a good sensei)


EXACTLY. Japanese and Okinawan is really moot. All karate is influenced by both, just the mix is different.



Well, not just you, because I think along the same lines :)

Thanks.

Best wishes

Des

Old Dragon
11th November 2004, 20:10
[QUOTE]Originally posted by desparoz
[B]The delineation between Okinawan and Japanese karate can be difficult.

Many other Shorinjiryu groups (including Australian Shorinjiryu) do not share the same priority, and concentrate more on the very utilitarian techniques and teachings of the founder. Of course, these groups do compete, but not at the same level of enthusiasm for competitive karate over the utilitarian aspects. So, points 3 & 4 somewhat covered.



On point 6, most of us don't do kakie, if you mean the forearm conditioning. I would not equate this to "Okinawan Karate", but "Okinanan Gojuryu Karate". I am not in any way belittling this - I have a lot of respect for Okinawan Goju. I just don't think its an exercise common to schools of Okinawan Shorin lineage.

However, we do practice a lot of partner drills, including some push hands style stuff.
Des


Response to Des and Tim:

One of the problems in determining Japanese or Okinawa origin and what makes what is that the people who helped each style evolve made personal preferences and changes.

Miyagi changed Sanchin to a single direction for his express purposes of testing the body mechanics involved, his sanchin was primarily used as a tenshin kata to teach chinquichi, breathing, and muscle control.

He and others like him were the forerunners to modern day karate and were not maintaining exact movements of kata but the essence of the lesson in the kata. Miyagi, Shimabuku, Kyan, were inovators. (These are only a few examples there are many more and I am not limiting it to these)

When Karate went to Japan it was not only Funakoshi that spread the word, he and a select few were the only ones that gained fame over it. And they also were inovators experimenting for what "they felt" was the best way. Add to this the fact that the Japanese mainland culture has historicly adapted and modified many things like this (transistor radios comes to mind) to suit their specific culture. Differences and changes were inevitable.

I have been studying Okinawa karate and Kobudo for 23 years, I am ranked in both from sensei who either still live in Okinawa or who formerly lived in Okinawa. There are some factors that they say make it Okinawan.

1. Kakai or Koteke Tai, as My sensei refers to it, (my sensei was taught by old okinawa dilect practioner Shimabuku Tatsuo) is one of them. It has been reffered to on this thread as "forearm conditioning" and within in that grouping of exercises is an okinawa "equivalent" to push hands, it is not however about "pushing" the partner, but is often described as a similar exercise. This is part of Okinawa history and practice technique.

2. Makiwara is another item that is traditionally practiced by Okinawa styles. It is however practiced slow, with a pushing motion. Its purpose was to develop strength in the wrist and arm, proper structure during the punch to maximize the punch effect and to condition the knuckle area to take an impact. It is originally Okinawa.

3. Because of the outlawing of martial arts during times in the history of Okinawa they never had large dojo's or classes. Most of Okinawa martial arts were taught in homes with one or two students in attendance during each lesson. It was the Japanese who gave Funakoshi and others like him the opportunity to teach to large groups. Out of this came the difference in Dojo teaching style. Okinawan's today will have formal classes but tend to have a less militaristic approach. Even if you see 30 students doing the same kata at the same time the atmosphere seems less rigid it is not uncommon to find the Sensei appearing almost quiet and shy as opposed to shouting orders like a drill sargent.

4. Working with the weighted jars, and the old style conditioning tools they used is also Okinawa based. Not many western schools do this now and we tend to substitute the "gym" experience for this but they were definatly exercises for the martial arts working on areas like the back, wrists, and those areas that were specifically called upon in combat. The gym experience addresses the body as a whole, which is good but not the same.

5. The advent of larger classes in Japan schools put the martial arts in a different perspective. They saw it not only as a means to learn to defend your self but promoted it as a method of health and well being. Many Okinawa styles have also adopted this, but the fact remains is that during its conception and original development Okinaw karate was meant to defend.

I think that the advent of the Korean and Vietnam wars which exposed many service men to Okinaw and Japanese arts was a boost for exposing them to the world. These servicemen returned to the western world and coupled with the Japanese influence developed the modern day sport of Karate. Once again Okinawa saw a good thing and jumped on board. The term Shiai is now sunonamus with Tournament, but originally Shiai was more demonstration that competition. Sparring even into the late 50's on Okinawa was seldom seen and when it was seen was practiced full contact. There are many pictures of students wearing kendo gear to free spar. It was this reason that different types of sparring exist such as the preearranged sparring drills that many styles have. If free sparring was common at full contact many of the students would not have survived.

Of course whith that onslaught of the new sport and competiton era came the need to set rules, such as no kicking below the waist. This created a greater need for high kicks. Most original Okinawa styles had one or two high kicks and a battery of kicks aimed at legs and lower body, (a more practical and faster weapon for combat) Today karate dojo teach both, but it is my experience that the fact that the lower kicks are the originals is often not emphasized enough.

Sorry for this long diatribe but I beleive that we learn from those that teach us "THEIR" style of Karate. Seeking out who teaches true Okinaw karate is a tough call because influences of other cultures and commercialism (and trust me, commercialism is a necessary part of paying the rent on a dojo today) have changed the face of karate in Okinawa itself. Determining what is original and what is adapted is a tough call...............

One other thing that plays into this......... The Okinawa people by nature tend to innovate with their martial arts, therefore its still changing. YES...... they have become competitive in their presentation of it, YES..... Some of them are earning a living at it and have seen the North American dollar.... YES..... some of them have stayed true to form and are cultural emmisaries around the world.... That is what makes it an Okinawa art...... its their art... and as my sensei said... Shimabuku was an innovator, he made changes for a reason. As Fumio Demura said.... (regarding shushi no kun) "I learned it from Mr. Taira (Taira Shinken) the differences in what you do and what I do were intentional changes for my purposes" Does this attitude follow the Western philosophy of "what constitutes traditional martial arts"? It certainly does not. But think of this, They learned the traditional, mastered the kata they were given and took the lessons. Today we would have called them non traditional, and they were in their day also, but they came through a time when the definition of "traditionalist" was different.

There are of course more items that classify it as Okinawan, Traditional Okinawa Kata, Nihanchi, Seisan, etc. etc. , focus on bunkai, attitude and more. I didnt go into some of these because it is self evident. (OK>>>> I"M FINISHED)


Mike O'Leary