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Jody Holeton
12th June 2000, 21:17
Heres a question thats been bumped around! Should martial art schools charge the minimum, just to pay rent and such, like alot of schools in Japan?


Should martial art schools be out to make the most money possible off their students? Kind of like the McDojo mentality Magaret Lo mentioned in other posts.


Interesting to hear what you all think--Jody

Tetsutaka
12th June 2000, 21:54
Is there no area between "break even" and 'McDojo's'"? I think so. It's called good business.

Just covering the bills is not enough. There are a myriad things that come up [including insurance, utilities, mat repair, etc.] to tug on your monthly income. If you are just barely "treading water" then the least little pul down make you swallow water...

Students need to understand that they have a duty to support their dojo so it will be there for them in the years to come.

On the other hand, there is such as thing as pricing yourself out of the market. For what you charge, there is an expected level of service. If the expectation for your dojo to be open 24 hours a day, and you're charging that way - but only teaching at a local community center, then you will quickly run into a perception problem with the public, and rightly so.

Make sure that your students have the proper expectations, and charge them accordingly. It doesn't do them any favors to charge just enough to run yourself out of business in six months. This is, of course, working on the assumption that every student will pay every month on time without fail, and will be a student of yours for many years to come... http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif


Expectations work both ways.

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Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

Tetsutaka
12th June 2000, 21:58
And another thing...

There is a Japanese MA here in the area that charges $35 per month at the YMCA, and also has a dojo where they charge twice that.

On the other end of the spectrum, we have a Korean style that charges as much as $39 per week, yes, per week for classes.

Neither one of them are going out of business.

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Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[This message has been edited by Tetsutaka (edited 06-12-2000).]

Reece McQuinn
13th June 2000, 02:56
Any and all martial arts dojo where the teacher is making his or her living from teaching is a place to stay away from.

Martial Arts should not be a business. Any one doing it as a business is in my opinion only selling rank.

At least with a non-profit place,you know that the teacher is most likely doing it because he or she cares, not to make money.

Every decent dojo I have trained at was a non-profit.

The people who charge outragous amounts of money are usually egotists and any real knowldge they have becomes available only to the wealthy.Japanese martial arts should not be an exclusive club based one's bank account!

To each thier own.

Joseph Svinth
13th June 2000, 09:28
Oh. Since we don't pay money for instruction, does that mean that whenever some Grand Poohbah asks you to pay his airfare to your school for testing(or worse, charges promotion fees -- I think the Kodokan is about $750 for 7-dan these days), then we should laugh at Poohbah's commercial pretensions?

Also, should we also tell Poohbah to take his association fees and shove them where the sun doesn't shine?

My attitude is that if we are going to pay Poohbah to show up once a year or decade, then we should pay the guy who teaches us every day, too.

But probably Poohbah wouldn't like that, as if everybody thought this way, then he might have to get a real job, kinda like the rest of us.

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Joe
http://ejmas.com

Tetsutaka
13th June 2000, 17:00
I think you also have to decide what "not-for-profit" means...

"Break even" means one thing, "not-for-profit" is completely another.

My question is always - what happens when someone gets hurt? Do you think that the dojo will survive if the instructor finds out that Tommy's daddy is a personal injury lawyer? Who cares if Tommy is a senior student at the college where your teach, and Tommy signed about 50 waivers. That just means that the sensei AND the university are going to be sued.

There is always a balance. You get what you pay for. You also get what you ask for. If you walk into a dojo that is in a gymnasium with no mats, and want to train in judo - you're going to feel pain at the end of class... now that is a bit of a stretch, but you see my point. You can't have everything, and if you want free training, [as I said above] you will get exactly what you pay for.

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Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

Joseph Svinth
13th June 2000, 21:04
Houston -- aren't the NFL, NBA, and NHL all "not-for-profit" organizations? If so, how do I get similar income from sport? (Tell the truth, I could probably force myself to live on what they pay the players, but really I'd rather live on what they pay the owners.)

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Joe
http://ejmas.com

Tetsutaka
13th June 2000, 23:22
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph Svinth:
Houston -- aren't the NFL, NBA, and NHL all "not-for-profit" organizations?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know - but that follows my point exactly. I just heard a radio spot on NPR about the Goodwill store (San Diego?) where they were competing successfully with the Old Navy's in the area. The CEO of that Goodwill organization is pulling in $500,000 per year as a salary - from a non-profit.

I think the idealistic notions of teaching for free went the way of "everyone living in peace & harmony"



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Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

Tetsutaka
13th June 2000, 23:29
...and another thing...

What about the teacher that has put years of time, energy and yes - MONEY - into his or her training?

What about the instructor that makes $75 per hour as a professional in his or her real job? Should he or she teach i nspare time for free to compensate, and accept every schmuck that comes into the dojo? That would mean that there will be 15 classes per week, and don't forget the free private lessons for those who can't make the scheduled classes... the instructor shouldn't expect any personal time at all - after all... it's the obligation of ht eteacher to be at the disposal of every student...

Should he or she also buy uniforms for the poor students? After all - it is their obligation to teach - is it not? Should he or she not also be expected to provide the best gear to everyone that comes through the door?

Fair - Schmair...

Reece - get a job - Karl Marx is dead.

------------------
Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[This message has been edited by Tetsutaka (edited 06-13-2000).]

Chuck Clark
13th June 2000, 23:50
The Aikikai hombu in Tokyo, a "traditional dojo", in most people's standards charges around $120 a month for two days practice a week. Granted, there are usually 5 classes a day and many people arrange their schedule so they can make two classes per day for their two days a week. It still is a fair bit of change.


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Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
http://www.jiyushinkai.org

Reece McQuinn
14th June 2000, 00:49
Chuck:

Yeah it's a lot of money. A guy from my dojo (not Aikido) just got his shodan after just short of a year's traing there with no other prevous experience, at the Aikikai hombu dojo going once per week.Tell me that isn't selling rank! Besides, EVERYTHING is more expensive in Tokyo!

I just saw a test not so long ago for the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei and every single person testing up through 3-dan passed. And some of them couldn't do the techniques.The word is, you can't fail under through 3-dan. That means everyone is going to get a shodan in a year, 2-dan in two years, 3-dan in 4 years. Tell me this isn't selling rank!

A non-profit doesn't mean you don't pay dues. It's a legal status that helps some people stay in business and others avoid taxable income.But most dojo are the former not the latter.

We are not talking the NBA here for the love of _______! Most martial arts dojo just get by no matter what the students pay.

I still say that if you are in it for profit, those who come to your dojo are not students, they are business clients (with the business client's legal rights for written and implied warranties), and there are those out there that have to be motivated into paying thier dues and staying in class. Selling rank is a way to easily keep people motivated and paying.

Paying dues to cover rent, insurance, these kinds of things, yes thats what people do in dojos where the teacher has a real job besides teaching MA. People willing to pay realy big money to train with a 'super star'... whatever, it's thier money.

The best teachers I have ever had, teach because because they belive that what they are teaching has value in and of itself, not because it has a marketable value. I'm not saying every dojo that is non-profit is without bad teachers. But commercialism does not usually mean the MA business has a lot of heart!

A dojo that charges too much, should raise some flags and make the perspective student want to start asking some questions. Then it might be easier to judge the heart of the dojo.

Reece McQuinn
14th June 2000, 11:01
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Popie:
[B]...I think a question too should be if instructors of martial arts should get fat on the profits of teaching? and if so does that effect quality?
B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you mean too fat to do the techniques themselves because they can't see thier own feet anymore?

This is an interesting thread. Is there a corrolation between profit and quality? I wouldn't say a corrolation but a tend perhaps.

Some dojo in japan have been mentioned as being expensive, but most really aren't so bad. I used to live in a prefecture far away from Tokyo, and the local prefectual budokan had, Aikido, Kyudo, Atarashi Naginata, Karate,Judo and Kendo, all for free! All by very qualified instructors, since thier time was compinsated by the tax payers, they had a standard.

I don't like those who get fat from charging expensive dues, but hey, if they can do it, and keep students, and those student's feel they have gotten thier money worth, well ok then. Good enough.

At least there is the whole gambit, from dirst cheap to too expensive to choose from.

The issue shouldn't be the money, maybe the issue should be can the instructor instruct?

kagebushi
14th June 2000, 14:04
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Reece McQuinn:
Some dojo in japan have been mentioned as being expensive, but most really aren't so bad. I used to live in a prefecture far away from Tokyo, and the local prefectual budokan had, Aikido, Kyudo, Atarashi Naginata, Karate,Judo and Kendo, all for free!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mention here only gendai budo arts. I do not want to offend anybody here or start another flame war (so please do not take this the wrong way), but these arts are in Japan generally referred to as Martial Sports and as cultural activities. Considering this cross culturally, it is very similar to western countries, where kids and adults practise football, basketball, baseball, etc in mini leagues or community centers. These coaches do the same thing, for no money: Leading, teaching and instructing. So i do not think that the Gendai Budo instructors are very special in this aspect.

Running a Dojo for profit??? I think martial arts originally are a part of military science, and not some kind of a "holy" religious thing. It is a free market economy, if somebody can make a living of teaching MA, let him do it. It is a customer choice to do pay for this service.
Hm, this topic is good. I really do not think that most professional business "MA schools" in the US for example are worth their money. But, hey if the students are happy getting a belt, and actually have to sweat a bit for it (instead of sitting in front of the TV all day), why not??? People will spend or rather waste their money on something anyway. I have seen students of instructors (who charged very little) who couldn`t wait to order something over the Dojo (discounted dealer prices), but had to run out to the next "pay your butt off" martial art store for stupid toys or even "sometimes" good training gear.

MA for everybody, sounds a bit communist. In the USA there is the second amdment to keep a balance of power.

Let`s mention some serious/real martial arts training. Schools that teach skills, methods and arts on a professional level. There is a need for this ranging from Law enforcement, over the private security/protection field to the military. I believe absolutly that this should be run like a professional business. The best quality, services and instructions are needed to succeed and to stay in business. Instructors have the right like any other occupation to make money, has they have spend their time, money, sweat and blood to achieve their level. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif How many people complain that about government services or workers??? http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif I think the problem is that they are not running for profit. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif Many government employees would not keep their jobs in the real world.

Food for thought, my ex-girlfriend signed her model contract and was told the "basic" hourly wage was US$120 (she went on the Med school by the way...). http://216.10.1.92/ubb/frown.gif i am to ashamed to admit how much i was making, while doing high risk security assignments...



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Mark Brecht

Aaron Fields
15th June 2000, 06:45
I run a dojo in which I take no payment from. All of the income goes back to the dojo. This is the way I like it, but I have a "day job." As to what others should do, I would never be so bold as to say. Except in the case of the "Mcdojo or dojo-Kings" of the world. These srip-mall clubs in general rub me the wrong way. The trick is to remain honest. The dojo I run is located in the "rough" area of town. Many of the students come from other areas and are in a financial position to contribute a little extra (club fees range between $15-40 per month for a working adult.) I have been able to offer scholarships to a few of the younger members who cannot afford the monthly dues. Dogi are purchased at wholesale with a $5 handle fee (which goes to the club.) We also re-sell dogi of people who join, try, and quit. All in all we are doing well. But, like I said this is how I like to run things. I was a poor kid who found an instructor who gave me a break, so in return.....

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Regards,
Aaron

MarkF
15th June 2000, 10:01
Joe Svinth has pretty much explained my feelings on this matter, but one thing I have a probelm with is payment for testing, or rather, testing at all. Someone made the point of testing fees and that everyone passes. If this is indeed fact, and I know a lot of people do this, but since the test itself is based on what the student has been taught be his/her teacher(s), doesn't the teacher all ready know the level of a student's training? If sensei doesn't know by then, what is the purpose? Doesn't the student bare any of the responsibility? At the same time, isn't the teacher's job to know what level of training the student has reached around the time of a test? I would think a lot of responsiblity would go with a promotion and these are things which cannot be tested as such. How does a student handle responsibility? Is he/she selfish and only after personal reward? The teacher can see these aspects of one's character on a daily basis. Is the student giving of/him/her self? How does the student manage when asked for help, even to the detriment to his/her training time? Should not all of this go into grading a student's training level? If so, what is the point of a test? Assuming no built-in handicaps, it woud seem these "untestable" traits come through much better than technique alone. I think that is how these McDojos get the reputation in the first place. Why must a teacher charge monies above and beyond the monthly charges? Even the junior student will surprise now and then, and while a belt rank may be a goal for said student, shouldn't the teacher be able to see when it is time? "Rank is nothing. Waza is everything." Well, put in that context, it is true, but are there not other areas of natural ability which will show as well? I believe testing is expected so the teacher gives these tests. It is also another source of income, but how much is too much? Tests are basically arbitrary in nature, but the teacher's knwoledge of just where the student is in his/her training is something which cannot be picked up by a mere test. The responsibility of grading students whould fall on the sensei's ability to see this level of ability much better than a test.

As to Jody's question, I think it would depend on many factors and I think abillity to pay should be considered. Many find it difficult to pay monthly fees, dogi, belt fees, etc, not to keep this in mind. There are many ways to pay for one's keep, and not all of it is in the way of a monetary fee. There has always been a social basis for the arts so I believe this too should play a role. Possibly a sliding scale, in particular, for that one student who has something special. It isn't so different from other arts, arts most people relate. Are the martial arts so much different? Can we not give "scholarships?"

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Mark F. Feigenbaum

Gil Gillespie
16th June 2000, 00:56
Aaron------

My hat's off to you. You're doing the right thing. Your students are lucky people------first, they live in Seattle, then they train with you.

My dojo is non-profit. My senseis are professional men so that helps. All our fees go into supporting the dojo. I've always felt the need to generate a profit leads to the McDojo mindset. We actively recruit, but only because we know new students are the lifeblood of the dojo and the art.

I've never objected to testing fees. Promotions and certificates come out of Tokyo & that doesn't happen for nothing. I've wondered about the range of upper yudansha fees, but I've only wondered.

icynorth
30th June 2000, 19:12
I think that there is a margin here. No to be too excessive. However you are comparing apples to oranges. I don't think making a little extra is bad for your troubles, it also can change due to the expense the dojo costs, there is no median costs. In my dojo I charge my students a certain fee for beginners this gets them to 9thkyu they pay up front so all the photocopying and time I spend with them is worth it I charge $60 for that, 5 dollars per class after unless there is a barter situation; one student is 3 dan in Aikido I am trading info with him, another can recruit students(I amin a remote area) My dojo is also in my house.
Also there is an unfair statement that time means belts(usually does) in an age long ago a student would go to a master and learn what they needed in less than a year. What if you trained only one student, three times a week for 2hrs at a time after a full year how far would you expect to be? Your belt can represent your heart for it as well. It only holds up yourpants otherwise
Thanks

Joseph Svinth
1st July 2000, 08:54
Hey Icy North, note that E-budo has an official policy requiring the posting real names at the bottom of posts. The easiest way to not forget to do this is to create a profile signature, as that way it shows up automatically.

Thanks!

Osoto2000
2nd July 2000, 22:14
Originally posted by Reece McQuinn

The issue shouldn't be the money, maybe the issue should be can the instructor instruct?

Well Reece I think you finally hit the nail on the head there. What does it matter how much someone is payng for tuition so long as they are receiving quality instruction from an instructor with integrity.

BTW I'd like to meet the Shodan who achieves his grade with only a years instruction, preferable on the mat.

MarkF
3rd July 2000, 08:24
There is a thread in "Aikido" concerning this very thing, except this course is a rigorous one, one done in/for a police department in Japan (Tokyo, I think). It is a tough, fulltime course with a shodan waiting, or nidan, I think, if you are going to teach. If it is, say eight hours, six days or more, what then? Is the student/trainee for the department qualified? It takes about a year to complete, I believe.

I know, I should have just posted the thread up here, but I think this is different. Twice a week? No. Four times/week three hours per day? No, but if this is a course, what would you think then, as to someone receiving shodan from this one-year course?

Margaret Lo
3rd July 2000, 15:58
Originally posted by kagebushi
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana,
Food for thought, my ex-girlfriend signed her model contract and was told the "basic" hourly wage was US$120 (she went on the Med school by the way...). http://216.10.1.92/ubb/frown.gif i am to ashamed to admit how much i was making, while doing high risk security assignments...

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Mark Brecht

Gee Mark I guess you should wear a bikini during your high risk security assignments. Then the pay will improve. :D

-M-

Gil Gillespie
4th July 2000, 04:33
Margaret, your one liners crack me up. I love you---do have a collection of Jack Benny or Henny Youngman videos? (Just jivin-----I know it's all you.) That's why ILU. Hey, is Hong Fat's Rice Shop still a go in Chinatown in NYC? Walk down from the sidewalk, open all hours, kinda flexible on the hygiene thing, but wow the best!

Mark, I would have to say that a shodan is inappropriate in an intensive training course of any kind. Give any kind of certificate you want but inherent (I think) in any real shodan is time spent going through the kyu ranks. Not just learning the techniques, but spending the time, weeks becoming months becoming years that makes The Path the special personal enshrinement it is in all arts.

I understand in the big picture that shodan's are a dime a dozen. Yet that part of the journey should never be trivialized in an intensive training course. If they're serious let them pursue their training as, at most IMO, a nikyu (brown belt). A journey is not merely point to point, but the timespent in the process internalizes each stepping stone in a way that should not be denied the serious budoka.

Chuck Clark
4th July 2000, 05:03
It's my impression that the Kidotai course at the Yoshinkai Hombu is more of a "spirit forging" training than a course that's supposed to leave you as a model of sound principles and a refined instructor.

From what I've heard, they literally beat the tar out of you and see if you'll quit. Nothing wrong with that actually as I've been through a couple of schools like that as well as Marine Corps boot camp.

Anyone who comes through the program has a right to feel proud for not quiting.

The Kodokan has a program for Japanese and foreigners alike to train seriously several times a week and promotion to shodan at the end of about 13 months or so.

MarkF
4th July 2000, 10:13
Well, I never said I agreed, only that it is different. If you gave me a running back and two defensive linemen to train, say, three times a week, three hours a day, I could make them into fair tournament fighters, but what is fair? If I do enter them as novices, they may very well have dinner on the others, but just what does make it then? What is a shodan, anyway? It is the beginning of the trip, isn't it?

BTW: Thanks Chuck for giving me the name of the course. There are differing opinions on that course and what the outcome should be so I thought the questions valid.

BTW: It took me ten years for shodan, at three hours/evening, four days/week.

icynorth
4th July 2000, 18:34
I must say that I am impressed. 6500 hours of training for your black belt you must be very profficiant. Well most arts that I have run into it really depends on class size and the particular art, what they put into shodan some schools make shodan and up the hard stuff I'm not sure. I was not this way it took me several years but I'm just arguing for sake of it

Chuck Clark
4th July 2000, 20:55
Hi Mark, Happy 4th of July!

To me, shodan means just what it says ... first grade

It's the first step after kindergarten.

Actually, as I've written before, I think its more like going into junior high at seventh grade. You should have some basic knowledge about "basics" like readin, writin, and 'rithmatic; with the ability and desire to continue to learn. You should have enough socialization and skills to "get along" with your fellow students and take your place as a serious student.

In a more serious vein, for judo and aikido, I think shodan should mean you can take any ukemi anyone can give you. When I first went to the Kodokan, it was the thing Kotani sensei wanted to see before you could get into the daidojo instead of staying in the foreigners dojo.

icynorth
4th July 2000, 23:06
I could not have put it better, also it sounds like the grading structure in Judo is pretty strict. My apologies I have had no dealings with it. Togakure Ninjutsu is my path.

MarkF
5th July 2000, 11:23
Hi Chuck,
Since this is the fifth, I will instead wish you comfort in treating that post-holiday glaze which is sure to make its presence known tomorrow at work.

Fact is, I agree. Sho dan is, and should be the first step. I don't think skill alone is worth the grade unless you are the unique, selfless person, when you began. There are exceptions, as there are to everything.

I like the Jr. High School ananogy much better than first grade. You are not a "grammar" student anymore per se, but it also is helping you ready for high school (upper grades), or nidan, sandan, etc., and the responsibilites which come with it. Shodan is far from being an end to the means, but rather you have finally grown sufficiently to understand, and make your first step in learning what you will need to know.

That said, there is a point to not always judging different people by the same standards, but grades may have to be skipped for that one student who is already there. I personally would never even think of it, but there is some logic to it.

If basing a grade is using grappling, or katame waza as a basis, where does the very well experienced freestyle wrestler's grade belong? This is rhetorical, as was the comment about building a great shiai competitior with a bulding block of size. There may be a real question in this, as well.;)

There is a "sumotori" in New Jersey who also is judoka. Joe S. can give you his name, althugh his first name is Manny. Possibly one of the Skosses know about whom I am refering. He is 6'10," and weighs well over 700 lbs. He is a professional sumotori, but he was judoka first. As his first move after a grip is obvious, how and where is he placed in the dan ladder? I admit I don't know his background, as I have only seen him on The Tonight Show a couple of times. If anyone out there from Jersey (hint, hint) knows Manny, it may be interesting to know the hows and whys of this "gentle giant."

kenshorin
13th July 2000, 12:37
Wow this is a good one. Should an instructor charge for services? Here's my $.02

~Theirs no problem charging for classes, PROVIDED the services given are exceptional

A lot of the McDojos don't provide the services that they are charging for. A lot of the students that are in these are paying for the "master" to get fat while being told that they are getting top quality certification through Japan (when in fact the certification comes from some big office in NYC) - however, I am part of a dojo where my instructor is a full-time karate person. He has a degree in Computer Science, though he instead chooses to spend all his time dedicated to teaching and learning the martial arts. He basically is CONSTANTLY researching martial arts to better improve our training. Though we train in Matsubayashi shorin-ryu, he is currently enrolled in Taichi, Kobudo, and Iaido programs, in order to learn more and pass that on to his students. I *definitely* do not feel cheated by the service I am provided, And gladly pay the $70 a month. Lastly, I actually train with my instructor, where a lot of McDojos the students never see theirs!

Yes I realize there is a lot of crap out there that are ripping people off, but just because someone is making a living of their dojo doesn't automatically make it a "McDojo" there are other factors I feel are neccessary to qualify for McDojoness :)

rob_liberti
14th July 2000, 17:14
In Japan, if someone hears that you are an Aikido Sensei, they give you instant honor and respect. In the States, they ask "what's your real job?"

The reason you pay a good teacher a lot of money is so they don't have to go out and get a "real" job. I want my teacher to be able to stay focused on teaching me aikido.

Rob

kenshorin
15th July 2000, 17:09
Rob -

Agreed. However, even in Japan, not all instructors get "instant respect." But I agree on all other points.

Just to make a distinction to everyone else, if an instructors full-time job is teaching, then I see no reason why the students shouldn't pay for the cost of living. However, I still think that the instructor should offer reasonable pricing, and not price so high as to make a fortune off of it. Should be reasonable. The same goes with anything else in life. Take for instance computer programming. Some people (like me) write programs for fun. Its not their full time job but its something they like doing. Now I can see giving away the programs for free, or charging a little something just to throw a little cash in their pocket. But I wouldn't expect someone who is doing this as a hobby to ask for a lot of money for their programs. With someone who writes them for a living, I wouldn't mind spending a little extra, *but* nowadays a lot of these programs are WICKED expensive, with the intent of making whoever wrote them megarich. If its a great program, then fine, but a lot of these multi-thousands-of dollar programs just don't do what a multi-thousand-dollar program should. Why spend all that money on it?

MarkF
16th July 2000, 16:11
Seventy dollars a month? That is not bad considering what some are charging these days. However, that is seven times what I paid monthly in 1963. I don't know the value of a dollar compared to back then, but my family didn't feel cheated.

kenshorin
16th July 2000, 16:23
yep, $70 dollars, but that is mostly because our dojo is quite large (I believe somewhere in the range in 2500 sq. ft.) so the cost of overhead is a little higher too. And yes, it isn't bad considering what some charge, I have seen a school charge as high as $160!

icynorth
16th July 2000, 18:41
In my school most people work on a barter system. $3 a class otherwise. I'm fortunate to have a dojo based in my home.

Mark Eckenrode
20th July 2000, 21:23
I know of one large school that was very much a traditionally oriented one. Instead of having set dues or payments every month they had a box near the door and a stack of red envelopes. The student placed whatever he felt the school deserved or he could afford in the envelope and then dropped it in the box. I would LOVE to adopt this philosophy at my school but at the same time I also see the inherent pitfalls.

MarkF
21st July 2000, 09:47
That sounds very similar to the way of most things Japanese. There are no fees, but gifts of large amounts of cash are very much appreciated.

kenshorin
22nd July 2000, 08:02
Mark E wrote - <i>I would LOVE to adopt this philosophy at my school but at the same time I also see the inherent pitfalls </i>

yeah... hey lets face it... I hate being charged a lot, but if i were to have my instructor adopt this, he'd go broke. lol this IS america... and its hard enough to get american students to pick up a vaccum sometimes! :)

George Ledyard
2nd August 2000, 00:52
Originally posted by Jody Holeton
Heres a question thats been bumped around! Should martial art schools charge the minimum, just to pay rent and such, like alot of schools in Japan?


Should martial art schools be out to make the most money possible off their students? Kind of like the McDojo mentality Magaret Lo mentioned in other posts.


Interesting to hear what you all think--Jody

I assume that in whatever form of occupation that you have chosen you would like to receive a wage that allows you to support yourself. I often hear people say that they think that Aikido teachers shouldn't "make a profit off their students". When you say that you are really implying that the students should be profiting off the teacher. Over the years I have spent many thousands of dollars and thousands of hours of my life in my training. If I were in any other field I would be an expert, a PHD or the equivalent. I would have the expectation that I should be able to earn a decent living at the vocation which has been the center of most of my adult life. But in martial arts. Somehow we are supposed to do it as a public service. I sincerely doubt that many of the people who maintain that sentiment are willing to work at their chosen field for what the typical martial arts teacher makes from his school.

What do you consider making a profit? In business classes they tell you that when you start new business that you make sure that you pay yourself and incorporate that cost into the total cost of running the business.

A lot of people consider a dojo that just barely pays its own expenses, maybe making enough money to allow the Chief Instructor to travel a bit for training seminars to be the model of the non-commercial dojo. But in a strict business sense it is losing money. If you are a teacher who has chosen to devote himself to whatever art we are considering, if you can't support yourself through the dojo in most cases you will have to get another job. If you are single and have no dependents or married with a spouse who can subsidize you, that may not take too much away from your training. But most of the people I know who had to work their way up the ranks by supporting their training with other jobs didn't have the benefit of a high paying yet very undemanding job. They often did jobs that were somewhat below their abilities, perhaps temporary employment, which gave them the optimum chance to train. But that isn't much of an option for people who wish to have families and some semblence of a life outside of the dojo. You need to have a job that will support the family. Most jobs that yield a living wage these days are very demanding of your time. Many of my students work in the high tech area in which 60 hour weeks are the norm. Their ability to give much energy to their job, family and training is severly limited.

So for some of us the option was to discard one of those areas, namely the job. By having a dojo that can support you you have removed the necessity for that immense energy drain that is the oustide career. You can then give good energy to your family and still really throw yourself into your training. Your students benfit tremendously from having more of your time and energy as well.

There is no support system for teachers of arts like Aikido in the states as there is in Japan. In Japan you can be an uchideshi and be supported to train. In return you help with the teaching either at the home dojo or at various satellites at schools or companies that request instructors from the home dojo.

Most of the senior teachers in the states make the majority of their income from the seminar circuit. They can make a comfortable income (not get rich by any means) by doing the grueling travel routine.

But that option is only open to the most senior instructors. The next tier of folks just below the small group at the top may do seminars occasionally but it is supplemental income at best. There isn't enough demend for them to be able to dispense with support from the foundation of their training which is the dojo.

Having a dojo that is financially sound (including a decent living for the chief instructor) should be considered a fundamental. If a teacher is in a position to not need to take money out of the dojo itself because they have an alternative method of making a living tha's great, they can roll all the money back into the school or subsidize various guest intructors out of the dojo proceeds. But if we are to have instructors that can compare in skill and commitment with the Japanese instructors who have been trained as professionals in Japan, then we need to realize that the foundation o f that support for these teachers is the dojo.

As one who relies on the support of his dojo for most of his income I can assure you that even a seemingly successful dojo isn't making anyone rich. And between teaching and administration you aren't putting in just forty hours. The only reason you would consider doing this is because you love it. But loving it doesn't pay the bills.

[Edited by George Ledyard on 08-01-2000 at 07:05 PM]