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Denis Torres
1st November 2004, 02:18
I just spent my Saturday afternoon watching Oyama Karate students pound each other for an hour or so. I understand the concept of full contact training popularized by Mas Oyama however now that I'm older I have to ask; is this good for you in the long run??

Are there any official or unofficial studies/findings on long term training in this style? I believe if you start at a young age you probably can condition your mind and body but still, I have to believe bare knuckles against your ribs and and vital upper body areas has to take its toll. Tournements once in awhile are one thing but full contact training two and three times a week seems like an insane philosophy. Especially if you go well over 200 pounds, strength train and have a martial arts background. I think the wear and tear would far outway any martial benefit.

I hate to sound spineless but I have to feel that this is a little extreme for larger "American" body types. Not to mention the legal liabilities of such training. I have all the respect in the world for Mas Oyama and his place in Karate lore but I just had to pose the question.

Michael Bland
1st November 2004, 20:20
Kyokushin training aside...

Full contact training definitely puts a lot of wear on your body. I have broken many bones, torn ligaments and tendons, and sprained most of the joints. I'm sure all of these injuries willc ome back to haunt me when I am in the twilight years of my life.

My advice would be to consider what the goal of your training is.

If the goal is to prepare yourself for a real fight situation, then I believe that full contact/full speed training is a necessity as a integral part of your regimen.

If your goal is just improved health, or feeling good about yourself, or something spiritual or any other of the myriad of reasons one might get into some kind of training, then stay away from the full contact.

But my advice would then be to be carefulnot build false confidence and think that you can effectively defend yourself.

Just my opinion...

Denis Torres
1st November 2004, 23:39
I hear what you are saying Michael. My concern was continued weekly full contact training. I believe in full or hard contact on occasion in order, as you say, to prepare you for the real thing. In addition "controlled" can also be an effective tool.

I was just wondering if anyone from the Kyokushin or Oyama styles could way in on the long term effects. Obviously the high level instructors who grew up in the art can sustain their training but I have to believe the 21 year old who chooses this style as his/hers first art will take away from it some serious problems either during their dojo tenure or down the road.

tamashi
2nd November 2004, 13:10
long term training is really the only way to do it.
that allows the conditioning to happen to the mind
and obviouly the body.

Occasional full contact is more dangerous than continual.

Denis Torres
2nd November 2004, 13:58
Hey Paul I'm glad you chimed in. Please take me through the progression of training. When one first starts Kyokushin/Oyama training how does the full contact training, excuse the pon, "impact" the individual. I'm sure many leave, but for those who stick it out, how do they progress? How does one mentally and physically condition themselves to take that pounding? And more importantly does this type of training lend itself to those who started in the system at a young (18-25) age? I guess you don't see a significant amount of 40+ practioners unless they are in a teaching capacity.

At the Oyama school close to me I see a tremendous amount of turnover. I visit the dojos in my area periodically and I can safely say the Oyama school has the most turnover as compared to other "traditional" karate schools. I can only assume that full contact and the conditioning that goes along with it has a high burnout factor.

tamashi
2nd November 2004, 19:05
http://www.wcnet.org/~thorese/sparring.html
this is part of my methodology, but many
places may be different. Each school may
be very different, but "most" knockdown
schools will try to break people in slowly.
I did not let people spar for example for
the first 3 months (there are exceptions).

Body conditioning goes a long way to help
:D
hope this is somewhat helpful.

yes, My attrition rate too used to be horrible.
Some people just have scewed expectations, and thought
it would be no harder than Tae Bo or something like that.
but of course it is more like "Thai Boxing", than Tae Bo.

and no, for the sparring aspect, it would not be as easy
for those over 40 years of age to start. for kata and Kihon
age would not make a whole lot of differnece compared to
other traditional karate systems.

Denis Torres
2nd November 2004, 21:00
Thanks Paul. I have a question about kata...one of two Oyama instructors in my area did not know what I was speaking about when I mentioned the world bunkai. That seemed very troubling to me. And second, I did not or have not seen self-defense type training in all my time watching these classes. Although I must say that the times number about half a dozen between both schools. Is self defense utilizing joint manipulation, take downs and controlling manuevers usually part of the Kyokushin style.

Finally, the schools I have been visited are Oyama Karate and not Kyokushin per se. Although as you know Oyama (not Mas) was a top Kyokushin sensei before he split from the Kyokushinkai system. Are the philosophies and teaching curriculum of the Oyama Karate organization very different than "classical" Kyokushin?

tamashi
3rd November 2004, 00:54
Depends on a great deal of factors.

Some organizations and dojo concentrate very heavily
on sparring ability to the neglect of the other factors you
have mentioned. Others maintain a balanced approach.

Schools who spend a great deal of time and energy on fighting
will get very good at fighting (obviously). Fighting within the
limited rules of knockdown sparring. Some clubs will concentrate
on the sparring and sparring drills, while others may spend;
1/3 Kihon
1/3 Kata
1/3 Kumite
but this is likely not the norm. some may spend
10 % Kihon
10 % Kata
80 % Kumite
and so on . . . .

The philosophies and teaching curriculum of Kyokushin and
the World Oyama Karate (as well as most other derivatives)
would have more similarities than disparities.

This has been discussed here a couple times. Maybe use the
Search function and look up the styles and see what you find.

Regards,

Paul
P.S. here is a good example of a Full Kyokushin Syllabus
http://www.pris.bc.ca/karate/adultsyllabus.htm
Enjoy.

gmanry
3rd November 2004, 01:12
Wow, 80% on sparring? Is that just all out toe to toe, or is it with a more focussed set of goals in mind? I didn't do nearly as much sparring during my work in Kyokushin. We sparred once a week. The rest was gruelling, never ending pad work, and partner drills, over and over and over. Same in Olympic TKD, I did much better when I reduced my sparring time and focussed more on skill building, punctuated by very specificly oriented sparring matches.

Overall, I found that I faired pretty well against others who did do a lot more sparring but less technical work. I have to ask, what is the rationale that so much sparring will actually produce better fighters?

Recently I worked with a young man who attended a Kyokushin deshi program. He sparred just about everyday. He was physically tough, but his sabaki was horrible, and he was way, way, way too tense in his execution, which means he was unable to manage maai or be an effective hitter. That was after 2.5 years of daily training 5-6 hours a day. He basically learned to be a good punching bag, and he was considered one of the best in his cohort, even competed in Japan on a trip with his teacher and at least lasted through the top fighter there (toughness). He was, by his own estimation, unable to really fight with him though. I felt bad that he hadn't been shown more.

I have to disagree that a higher percentage of sparring will translate into better fighting skills. Certainly, one must do some sparring, but it has to be done intelligently. Mixing it up is fun, but is largely unfocussed and wasted time. It can make tough fighters, but it doesn't necessarily make better fighters. Toughness is mostly mental, and can be built up pretty quickly by a good coach, as it is really mostly fear. Good fighting habits are much more difficult to make stick and have to be approached very strategically in the coaching plan, imo.

tamashi
3rd November 2004, 02:43
Hi Glenn;

I am lumping in all fighter training drills including
pad work, rounds, drills etc etc with the sparring.

I did not mean free-fighting all the time.
:)

Denis Torres
4th November 2004, 23:16
Paul I notice on your site that you use gloves and pads. I've never seen that in the two Oyama schools I visited. Are pads up to the individual instructor or is it more common in Kyokushin training as opposed to the Oyama training method.

It makes all the sense in the world to me especially when getting a beginner in the full contact mind set. But again, during all the sparring I've seen, strictly no pads anywhere.

tamashi
5th November 2004, 13:15
Traditionally Kyokushin uses no pads / gloves.

Those of us who are a little more "modern" do
:D
Seriously, it is a individual thing, and the combination of
me personally preferring them for regular kumite and having had
almost all bginners meant that normally we used them. I prefer
light leather gloves to help a little in reducing hand injuries
http://www.realfightgear.com/Shop-read-86.html
but htat is just me. People can take 'em all off occasionally
but if the sparring training is frequent, it just makes sense
to wear some minimal protection on the hands (and shins)
just my .02

Paul


Originally posted by Denis Torres
Paul I notice on your site that you use gloves and pads. I've never seen that in the two Oyama schools I visited. Are pads up to the individual instructor or is it more common in Kyokushin training as opposed to the Oyama training method.

It makes all the sense in the world to me especially when getting a beginner in the full contact mind set. But again, during all the sparring I've seen, strictly no pads anywhere.

Margaret Lo
5th November 2004, 21:31
Originally posted by Denis Torres

I hate to sound spineless but I have to feel that this is a little extreme for larger "American" body types. Not to mention the legal liabilities of such training. I have all the respect in the world for Mas Oyama and his place in Karate lore but I just had to pose the question.

This is a very interesting topic. From the description of sparring and its underlying mindset, it seems that Kyokushin is using sparring to achieve the same results you might get from the "Iron Body" training common in Uechi ryu, Goju Ryu, and various Chinese MA (see the 38 Chambers for some great training shots). In those arts, repeated impact to hands, forearms, shins, stomach, back and other parts of the body helps the body grow hard and strong to absorb the punishment of a real fight. However, the conditioning methods in these older arts are very systematic, specific and begin in youth.

It seems that conditioning via sparring would seem to produce less consistent results since sparring is more chaotic by definition.

So I think Denis's concern is legitimate. Even with a lot of training, too high a frequency of impact could lead to chronic damage - boxer's syndrome comes to mind. What's too much would vary with each student's body I think.

M

gmanry
6th November 2004, 11:39
Hi Glenn;

I am lumping in all fighter training drills including
pad work, rounds, drills etc etc with the sparring.

I did not mean free-fighting all the time.


Okey dokey, I was a little baffled there for a minute. :)

Margaret, you are correct in your statements about sparring being a haphazard method to coditioning. Conditioning, purely through sparring is foolish, and Kyokushin practitioners usually do ramp up through specific partner drills focussing on thigh/shin conditioning, forearm coditioning, midsection conditioning, etc.

It is probably not as systematic, in general, as iron shirt or goju style keiko. However, it is systematic if it is taught by a good instructor, building slowly and steadily.

Moenstah
6th November 2004, 11:58
Originally posted by gmanry
Okey dokey, I was a little baffled there for a minute. :)

Margaret, you are correct in your statements about sparring being a haphazard method to coditioning. Conditioning, purely through sparring is foolish, and Kyokushin practitioners usually do ramp up through specific partner drills focussing on thigh/shin conditioning, forearm coditioning, midsection conditioning, etc.

It is probably not as systematic, in general, as iron shirt or goju style keiko. However, it is systematic if it is taught by a good instructor, building slowly and steadily.

A question that came up suddenly: how longlasting are the effects of conditioning? I can imagine that if your bones get stronger (more compact and dense), those effects would last quite long. But what about skin, tendons, muscles? Is it something that will last for several years, or only weeks?

Thanks,

gmanry
6th November 2004, 13:23
I can bet you dollars to donuts that there isn't a shred of scientific data on such things as physical impact conditioning and its duration. However, if we extrapolate from studies on endurance and strength training, we can conclude fairly safely that the effects do wear off. It is a condition that has to be maintained over time.

Endurance begins to breakdown within as short as a week, although the losses are minimal at first. Strength doesn't go away quite as quickly, but will start to diminish in two weeks or more, again it takes more time to lose a significant amount of strength.

So, physical resilience to impact probably will taper off after at least 3-4 weeks of missed practice.

Also, however, maintenance of strength and endurance requires less work once a particular level is achieved. To improve requires more work.

Physical impact conditioning DOES cause damage over time, and I often have to question people that spend inordinate amounts of time on it, when improving your maai, timing, etc. is a much better route than becoming a crippled (eventually) juggernaut.

hectokan
8th November 2004, 00:35
"STEADY TRAINING"

IS THE WAY TO GO!

Maddog Mitchell
8th November 2004, 01:32
I second that Professor Gomez!

Mike Mitchell

Jock Armstrong
8th November 2004, 08:10
Amen Heck.

gmanry
8th November 2004, 09:17
No doubt.

Moenstah
8th November 2004, 09:36
Once, I saw this bloke in a t-shirt with the slogan:

"Training is for the talentless" Laughed myself silly :p

Margaret Lo
9th November 2004, 18:00
Originally posted by Moenstah
Once, I saw this bloke in a t-shirt with the slogan:

"Training is for the talentless" Laughed myself silly :p

And I guess the response should be "Burying is for the Lifeless".

MAGon
10th November 2004, 13:02
Originally posted by Margaret Lo
And I guess the response should be "Burying is for the Lifeless".
Or possibly "NOT Training is for the Brainless."

Maddog Mitchell
10th November 2004, 13:17
Miguel,

Hey drop me a line at Mikemaddogmitchell@yahoo.com I wanted to chat with you about something.

Thanks,

Mike Mitchell

gmanry
15th November 2004, 04:28
"Training is for the talentless" Laughed myself silly

I was watching the new UFC DVD the other day and noticed that all the "talented" fighters (read hyper agressive bone heads) are pretty much gone. Tank Abbott, Kimo lost to Ken Shamrock, etc. are all memories beaten repeatedly by better more disciplined fighters. The people at the top are typically very disciplined methodical people who spent ludicrous amounts of time listening to OTHERS (even those who might not fight as well) to get the job done. A perfect example is Ortiz who started out on the "talent" band wagon but who, I think, has more or less switched over to the "disciplined" camp.

Talent is great, but discipline is what gets you through any type of training and ordeal. Those who don't have the discipline will be flashes in the pan.

powerof0ne
19th November 2004, 16:34
Tito Ortiz bounces around from trainer to trainer often which might be his downfall. Tito isn't what he used to be and I'm guessing a big part of it has to do with not sticking to one trainer. Once upon a time Tito was a number 1. ranked mma/nhb fighter in his weight class but after being on top for a few years started taking too much time off between fights and trying to come back with too much ring/cage rust.
I've trained under a couple of people Tito has trained under(Master Toddy, Juliano Prado) and know of dozens of more people Tito has trained under in the last 2-3 years. Look, I'm no world champion and I'm sure Tito would beat me in a mma/nhb/submission wrestling fight but it doesn't take a world champion to figure out that switching between a bunch of trainers over a few years isn't gonna be much help. I myself couldn't even imagine bouncing from instructor to instructor while competing. It's hard enough for me to transition from one instructor's style/methods to the next and I don't even compete anymore.

Chiba
29th November 2004, 13:32
Is kyokushin good for you?

It depends on what are you looking for. Sosai "Mas" Oyama used to say that kyokushin is not a sport nor a martial art, but an exercise half phisical, half spiritual.
It is like climbing a moutain, if you keep looking at the top calculating the distance and what it takes to get there, you'll never make it. To get there you must keep going.
When I started 100 kicks were unbearable. 2 year later I was kicking 6000 times each class.
So, I belive we must look at Kyokushin as a big moutain we must climb. And maybe one day when we reach the top, no more hard training would be necessary.

MarkF
30th November 2004, 04:08
I heard the following from a friend who trained with Mas Oyama:

In reference to the fighting room, Oyama said of that room: "[The Fighting Room] imparts wisdom."

I thought that was in the top three or four quotes I had ever heard.


Mark

Denis Torres
30th November 2004, 13:33
The original question was if the training in Kyokushin/Oyama was good for you. From the posts that have come through the answer is still not clear. What I gather is that if you are young and want full contact it's great. Or, if you started young, you can take this practice into later years with a revised less strenuous approach. But, damage to the body WILL catch up with you.

If you are a little older, and you want to "start' training you probably should look somewhere else rather than put your middle aged body through this quest for the truth. Unless you are in extraordinarely good shape.

Thanks for all of your inputs.

gmanry
1st December 2004, 05:31
The original question was if the training in Kyokushin/Oyama was good for you. From the posts that have come through the answer is still not clear. What I gather is that if you are young and want full contact it's great. Or, if you started young, you can take this practice into later years with a revised less strenuous approach. But, damage to the body WILL catch up with you.

If you are a little older, and you want to "start' training you probably should look somewhere else rather than put your middle aged body through this quest for the truth. Unless you are in extraordinarely good shape.

Thanks for all of your inputs.

This is a fair conclusion overall, but some training regimens can develop a fighter more safely than others. All Kyokushin is not the same.

Neil Hawkins
1st December 2004, 10:38
Even some of Oyama's senior students did not always agree with the style of training. I won't say hardness of trainng because you can train hard without the crunching bone to bone contact that I have seen in many Kyokushin Schools.

Hideyuki Ashihara (1944-1995) was a senior instructor with Oyama for many years, but began to realise that moving off the line and deflecting rather than blocking was better for you. He introduced Sabaki into his style and formed Ashihara Karate.

Since his death there have been a number of off-shoots, but all maintain the sabaki principle to (IMHO) the betterment of the art.

I know, arguments will ensue, but I really don't like getting hit that much!! :) If you can get out of the way then do so, you can train for much longer that way!

Regards

Neil

dsomers
1st December 2004, 13:05
A friend of mine visited William Oliver Shihan , just 2 months ago . He told me he looked horrible , when he seen him . He said , his hips , & knees were shot , & could not walk properly anymore , because of the negative effects of this type of training . Oliver Shihan , just passed away a few weeks ago at the age of 52 . I think if you are training this way for years , it will definately deter your body eventually . My friend that visited him , is a Roku Dan in Kyokushin , & is a little older now , he even told me , this type of training is no good for you , over long periods of time . He has changed his training methods drastically over the years , & I think you should ; if you want to continue to train the rest of your life , & live a long life . Just my 2 cents worth .

David Somers
www.angelfire.com/fl5/okinawagojuryu

Maddog Mitchell
1st December 2004, 19:09
David,

Hey who was your Rokudan friend in Kyokushin? There aren't very many of those around.

Mike Mitchell

dsomers
1st December 2004, 21:03
Andre Columbe , he just moved here last year , I believe , from Canada .

David

tamashi
1st December 2004, 22:25
Originally posted by dsomers
Andre Columbe , he just moved here last year , I believe , from Canada .

David


If I remember correctly, he is the one that went to fight
in the Kyokushin world tournament once – On his honeymoon!
Dedicated karate-ka?
:D

Yes, thought he was up in Canada. .

Kyokushin is not bad for you. That is like asking;
is Football bad for you? Is Soccer bad for you?
is Rugby bad for you? Wrestling? Boxing? Kickboxing etc