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sammycerv
29th May 2000, 07:16
I live in a culturally diverese neighborhood. Jersey City, New Jersey USA.
Last Thursday a Hispanic lady, English-speaking, wanted her son to join, Spanish speaking. I said he should try it out, but I don't know how to handle it. Should I let the mom stay with the kid to translate?

What the heck should I do?

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Sam Cervantes
www.geocities.com/unitedsds (http://www.geocities.com/unitedsds)

MarkF
29th May 2000, 10:58
Hi, Sam,
Age is of importance here as younger ones pick up another language quite easily. I solved one dilemma by learning to speak Spanish fluently and living in a Spanish-speaking country for about four years. This had nothing to do with teaching MA in this country, but it has made it easier.
Aside from doing that, you may ask yourself if you are doing the right thing by "telling" the students how instead of just showing them. My sensei did it this way as his English was as broken as could be while still being understood (sometimes). I taught ESL in Mexico, and the general rule of the school was that English only was to be spoken at all times. I won't lie and say we all followed that rule all of the time because translating in much easier. It down't mean there are no other means. As an example, if I couldn't get across, or I just didn't know it in Spanish, I would act out the verb I was trying to get across. If it was the verb "to jump," I would stand on a chair and jump down. You may want to think of visual aids and post them around the dojo, or use them at the beginning to help the student understand your meaning. It may be of value to you in learning some Spanish, as well. BTW: Do you speak Japanese? Well, if not, and you are like most of us, how do you explain, for exapmple, how to sit, or when to bow, when to stop, when to begin, etc? You show them, and with an explanation, no? Eventually, the student will get it, and if you have a senior student, that can become his/her job. I have had to actually place students in the right position physically. Some because they spoke only Japanese, some because they just didn't get it when explained.

Anyway, trial and error is the way. If you are serious about the student learning, this will be a challenge. If the student is willing, he will try to "parrot" you and others. All students begin to teach this way. I expect my more experineced children and adults to help the beginner, even when engaged in randori. He/she should do it willingly, and I have found that kids in particular, enjoy his/her status as "teacher" for the moment. It'll come. It may take some work in the beginning, but I have always found it to be a good thing when it succeeds. You only need patience. Kids can really surprise you at how much and how well they learn.



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Mark F. Feigenbaum

sammycerv
30th May 2000, 20:46
Mark,

Thanks. It will be a great challenge. Imagine if I had a non-English speaking student with ADD? I'd be dead.

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Sam Cervantes
www.geocities.com/unitedsds (http://www.geocities.com/unitedsds)

Gil Gillespie
11th June 2000, 21:25
It's a shame this thread has lapsed because it addresses the primal concern re: Japanese budo's expansion beyond the home islands, which provides the root of this entire forum.

I was extremely fortunate & forever blessed to train before Mochizuki Sensei in his hombu dojo in Shizuoka, my wife's home town. His cadre of sempais are exemplary and language was never a factor as their hands-on demonstrations and the bristling spirit of those Yoseikan budoka were not only understandable but inspiring!

I was not only a visitor from another style but totally nonconversant in Japanese. That madethe experience deeply memorable. Our interaction took place totally within the realm of expressing budo technique. I learned movement through movement; I learned technique through the tangible application of wonderful guiding sensei(s)

Many of us have experienced the exultation of blindfolded techniques, when uke's looming attack is invisible and energy harmonizes with energy. Try sometime to teach and learn without the advantage (burden?) of language. You may find barriers to your training peeling off!

Always train joyfully.

Gil

socho
12th June 2000, 04:51
Hi Gil,
I was dissappointed this topic didn't go further also. I train with a sword group in Yokohama, Japan. Very few of the members speak any English and I do not speak Japanese. Much of the instruction is the 'follow me' type, but some of the instructors have taken the time to work with me on fine points. Although initially frustrating for both of us, I have learned many of the Japanese terms and commands, and can now follow along fairly well. As a guest, asking for their training, it was expected, and I think they appreciate my efforts. I enjoy it, at any rate, and recommend the experience to any who have the opportunity.

Just another perspective away from the ESL side.

Question - should arts be taught in their native language? How closely should American (or other) sensei stick to the roots of traditional Japanese or other teaching styles?

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Dave Drawdy

MarkF
12th June 2000, 09:26
Being able to explain waza is just too easy, sometimes. Learning by example is in fact preferable, though it does entail much more work by both the teachers and the students. Even getting on your hands and knees to position a student who doesn't understand even when speaking the same language is always preferable to blowing it off as I have seen in many dojo. Not to take this back to ESL, but the truth is, one does not have to speak anything except the language one is teaching to be a teacher. I think it can be the same in budo, but it is just more physical. You are right, it is too bad this thread died, but are we now applying the paddles?

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Mark F. Feigenbaum

hyaku
12th June 2000, 11:31
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sammycerv:
I live in a culturally diverese neighborhood. Jersey City, New Jersey USA.
Last Thursday a Hispanic lady, English-speaking, wanted her son to join, Spanish speaking. I said he should try it out, but I don't know how to handle it. Should I let the mom stay with the kid to translate?

What the heck should I do?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello Mr Cervantes,

Even between Japanese teachers and their students verbal communication in the Dojo is a modern innovation. I think we should be thankful for it in some ways but can get on well without it.

Why is it some westerners require a long lengthy explanation for everything they do, then after about a hundred repetitions say "Iv'e done that , what's next?"

Many years ago Victor Harris wrote in my English copy of Gorin no Sho. "Reading Musashi is like Kakari geiko. A hundrend thousand times is not enough."

I should think you will be able to give a beginner enough to get on with for a few years without any explanation.
.....................
Regards, Hyakutake

Gil Gillespie
12th June 2000, 16:57
Hyakutake,you possess an autographed copy of Victor Harris' translation of "5 Rings." I would regard that as a life treasure. I hope you do. His version is vastly superior among those out there (a thread I'm preparing for proper future introduction on E-Budo).

I would love to hear of your meeting him or knowing him if you do. Feel free to bang mean e if you don't want to use this forum.

How doyou translate hyakutake-- fast growing bamboo? I'm just curious.

Gil

sammycerv
12th June 2000, 17:38
You guys are right! We should teach by example not by explanation. There are many times when I try to explain things to the kids (and at times adults), and they get confused with what I say.

Thanks for all the advice!

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Sam Cervantes
www.geocities.com/unitedsds (http://www.geocities.com/unitedsds)