Daito-ryu Keizu

[Nathan Scott]

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[Nathan Scott]

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[Walker]

I’m sorry, but the “blood” transmission is just so much Bull do (or jutsu if you prefer) in my opinion.

The other thing is the lack of support for the lineage before Sokaku.
One idea (not sure, but may have come from Angier sensei) is that what became Daito ryu was a school of strategy and court manners that became, in Sokaku’s hands, a martial art. I would assume that it is really hard to trace with the name change and once again the SAD show no sign of discretion in their claims.

[Den]

Claiming that stewardship of a ryu-ha can only come through blood lines is clearly not true. Through out the history of Japanese Sword arts we see examples of a current headmaster appointing or stipulating who his successor would be. Sometimes it has been a blood relation, but often has been a senior student who has innovated the art.

This is clearly a contentious issue within Japanese culture that causes consternation even today (eg. in Aikido, Tohei leaving Aikikai over dissagreements with Kisshomaru). Given the often political nature of Japanese discourse the notion that blood lines alone would dictate control of a business or "clan" organization should be discarded.

Respectfully submitted,
-Anthony

[Nathan Scott]

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[Nathan Scott]

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[Nathan Scott]

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[judasith]

Dear Mr. Scott,

As you may have read in another post, we're preparing a book which will contain a great deal of material, most of which previously unreleased and written by Takeda Tokimune Soke himself. Among the documents, there is also a lineage chart written by him, I'll see if I can attain permission to post it here before the publishing of the book.

Some parts of www.daito-ryu.com are indeed not 100% accurate, but we'll modify and correct the differences as soon as the translation arrives. The translator has all the papers since 2 of december, and told us not to expect she finishes her work until February, but maybe the lineage she will give me earlier, since it's among the first documents.

Regards and happy holydays,

Giacomo Merello

[Nathan Scott]

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[judasith]

Dear Nathan Scott and dear Posters,

As I promised earlier, I will now post the genealogic tree Takeda Tokimune Soke himself wrote and that I just received from the translator.

As I mentioned also in some other post, we are preparing a comprehensive book about Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu that will contain a great deal of never before published material written directly by the last Soke that we acquired from his senior students and leaders of our association and from many of the Daito-ryu newsletters Takeda Sensei published in Japan, that we all possess. Among this material there is the complete story of Daito-ryu since its origins, and various articles about principle and technique.

There is also the following genealogic tree, about which, though, I have to make a clarification. It is plainly WRONG to use the Takeda line genealogic tree as a line ALSO for Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, because, while most of the people in the line were also the inheritor of the art, not all of them were, and some who inherited the art at certain points and were outside the Takeda family but inside the Aizu clan are omitted. This line, which I understand is substantially the same as the one presented in many books, is described in written form by Takeda Tokimune himself in our documents as the TAKEDA FAMILY genealogic tree and NOT the Daito-ryu inheritor tree. This is confirmed also in Takeda Sensei's history of the Daito-ryu, since he plainly states that Takeda Souemon taught Daito-ryu both to Tanomo Saigo and his son Sokichi, and Takeda Sokaku learned some basics from his father, but received the final training in Daitoryu and Oshikiuchi (which in his vision is a set of techniques and etiquette used by the bodyguards inside the palace) from Tanomo Saigo, who is NOT at all present in the family tree presented. This is the same as for Hoshina Masayuki that for Takeda Sensei (as you will read in our book) was the one to reorganize the previous art in Oshikiuchi and trasmit it, and that is also not present in the genealogic tree.
Having said this, which I sincerely hope you will find as rational as logic as I find (mostly even because it is plainly written by the Soke himself), you will of course understand how foolish it is for certain people not members of the Takeda families, of adding their names after Takeda Tokimune's name. It is my understanding that there is NO Daito-ryu proper genealogic tree, but only a Takeda family's tree, which is different, and which led also us to see it is actually wrong to write, as we did, to count the people in the presented tree as "soke"s of the School.

The Takeda family line as presented by Takeda Tokimune Soke:

Emperor Seiwa
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Teijun Shinno
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Minamoto Tsunemoto (or Keiki)
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Mitsunaka
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Yorinobu
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Yoriyoshi
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Yoshiie
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Yoshimitsu
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Yoshikiyo
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Kiyomitsu
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Takeda Nobuyoshi
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Nobumitsu
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Nobumasa
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six names unknown
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Nobumitsu
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four names unknown
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Nobutora
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Shingen
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Kunitsugu
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Shuzei
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Nobutsugu
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Shinji
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four names unknown
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Souemon
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Sokichi
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Sokaku
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Tokimune

I believe a Daito-ryu proper line can be to a certain extent reconstructed based on this family line and the degree of relatives of the Hoshina and Saigo families Takeda Tokimune Senseis describes in a deep way (sometimes too deep!) in the written history of the school. You will find both this reconstructed Daito-ryu proper lineage and all the written story of Daito-ryu by Takeda sensei (with added detail and explaining) in our book when it will be finished. I really hope we can publish it by summer, even in english.

Best regards to you all,

Giacomo Merello

[Mike Haftel]

Giacomo Merello, thanks for the info.

Will this book be available in the US? What will the title be so that we can all keep an eye out for it?

[judasith]

Yes, it will be available worldwide, as soon as we agree with our editor we'll begin searching for a distributor (maybe an online reseller).

We haven't chosen a title yet, but it will be very simple, like "Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu" or "Introduction to Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu". It won't be an instructional book like "A to Z" or other "real Daitoryu secrets" papers, even though it will show some techniques taken from all over the curriculum; the historical, technical (in a sense of principles, and differences from Aikido, for instance) part will be the point, a book about Daito-ryu and not to teach Daito-ryu, or to sell to do-it-yourself people.

[Mike Haftel]

Sounds good. I'll have to pick up a copy.

[Nathan Scott]

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[judasith]

I agree with you about that. But nevertheless neither Hoshina Masanori nor Tanomo Saigo are included (because they're not family) while Takeda Tokimune in his history of Daitoryu (included in our book) credits the first with reorganizing and teaching the art and the second to have given the secrets and a sort of transmission scroll.

The lineage presented on the website was reconstructed by various sources, while the one presented here is the one directly written by the Soke (we have the japanese pages), so it is my belief we should deem this one the correct one, not the one on our website, that we will also correct as soon as possible. We received most of these documents (writings of Takeda Tokimune about history, technique, differences between modern and ancient arts, philosophical aspects etc. etc.) when we last went to Abashiri, while some others we have always had in the complete collection of all the newsletters the Soke published about Daito, but it's only recently we managed to gather the funds to translate and the right person to give the translation job too. It's a long and painful job, because she (a professional japanese translator living in Italy) doesn't practice any martial arts, so sometimes is in doubt about certain terms or names, but it's the only way. We wouldn't trust anyone else with the translation of this precious and mostly unique and unpublished material, as you may well understand.

Take also note that some differences in lineage trees can be traced to the fact that Japanese names, since written in Kanji, can be read in various ways, sometimes very different. Saigo Tanomo can be read Saigo Yorihaha, or Ueshiba Morihei, Morihira. So I guess some differences are only in the translation and not in the original.
We will include the original written in kanji by the soke in the book.

I hope anyway you appreciated me posting here as promised the lineage as soon as we had it translated.

Regards,