morihei ueshiba and pakua??

[pacman2323]

i recently spoke to a pakua teacher and he was telling me that ueshiba studied some pakua which is why there is some common footwork anyone know if this is true.i don't think it is but then again i don't know much about aikido or its history.

-chi jonesone

[don]

Originally posted by pacman2323
i recently spoke to a pakua teacher and he was telling me that ueshiba studied some pakua which is why there is some common footwork anyone know if this is true.i don't think it is but then again i don't know much about aikido or its history.

-chi jonesone

myth

do a search

[paul manogue]

I have heard this rumor too, that while in china O sensei studies bagua and hsing i. While I do not believe there is any hard evidence to support it having seen some demos of those arts I can see some similarities.

[Paul Kerr]

Surface comparisons of many arts in contrast to others will show similarities. That O Sensei studied Pa Kua is unsubstantiated.

[Ellis Amdur]

Actually, I've never heard any claim that Ueshiba studied xingyi. This one is an easy call - no way. Or if he studied it, he didn't learn anything of it - because the way one exerts force is dramatically different. As for bagua - Kumar Frantzis is one of the main sources of this claim.

But let's take a closer look. In Ueshiba's first trip to China, he was on the move as part of a small group of Oomotokyo conspirators, trying to start a religious revolution in China. He was on horseback, he was hiding in huts, ending up in shackles, and he was only there a few months.

A view of the 1936 film of Ueshiba shows that he'd already consolidated his techniques - aikido - and this was before his subsequent trips there.

In Ueshiba's subsequent trips to China - and there were several - he was always a dignitary. Ueshiba always travelled with a posse - he had a group of students who attended to him. There are no accounts by these men of him sneaking out on a regular (or even irregular basis), which is what he would have had to do. Bagua was utterly unknown in Japan. If he had learned to walk the circle and do the palm changes, no Japanese person would have had a clue what he was doing, if he had continued the practice - he could have called it his tengu dance and no one would have been the wiser. But there are no accounts of his walking the circle, and his techniques, compared to even the more simple palm changes, are far less "detailed." Ueshiba never displayed the characteristic Kou/bu steps used in turning, nor ever walked with "mud treading steps" (common in many bagua systems).

A Japanese man named Takeda, who was a lineal successor of one line of tombeichu'an, mentioned that Ueshiba, as part of a group of Japanese martial arts personages, visited him in 1936 in Beijing. But this was one evening - Ueshiba was with his posse - and Takeda made no mention of any techinical exchanges.

Yes, there are techniques similar to ikkyo, nikkyo, irimi-nage, kokyu-nage in bagua - but this is truly superficial - one can find similar techniques in early fencing texts from Holland as well. But aikido doesn't "coil" the muscles/tendons like bagua, views combat from a very different frame of reference ("grab my wrist"), has no kicks, leg traps, and the atemi is very very different from the strikes one finds with bagua.

Frantzis did not, to my knowledge, ever view much Daito-ryu - (maybe he did, but DR wasn't OUT much in the sixties when he spent most of his time in Japan) - and therefore did not see that DR technique, the roots of aikido, has the same methods.

Aha! So DR must be derived from bagua. Nah. No records of Takeda Sokaku EVER being outside of Japan. And DR is even further away in technique.

In sum, the resemblences are very superficial, the record of Ueshiba's travels may show that he had time to have seen Bagua in Beijin, after he'd already made aikido what it is today, and finally, his son stated, when asked, that his father never talked about Chinese martial arts, nor did he ever do any practice which resembled it, while in the privacy of his home.

THe odds of him doing bagua are perhaps a little higher than his doing flamenco.

Best

[Joseph Svinth]

Speculation -- Ueshiba may have seen a demonstration of taijicao ("tai chi calisthenics"). Its advocate, Chu Minyi, was a one-time buddy of Chiang Kai-shek who became foreign minster of the puppet government of Manchuoku in 1940. Chiang didn't like this, so a Nationalist court sentenced Chu to death in 1946. Mao would have done the same, so you don't hear much about Chu's system today. (Like nada on Google.) However, back then, the Japanese played it up, to the point of giving it a mention in "Japan Times." Taijicao also made international newsreels in 1936, as it was the CMA demonstrated at the Berlin Olympics. For more on this, Andrew Morris's book "Marrow of the Nation."

That said, even if Ueshiba did see a demo, I doubt he would have learned much from it, and probably would have borrowed less.

[Jason W]

Sorry to butt in here Ellis, but you wrote:

>A view of the 1936 film of Ueshiba shows
>that he'd already consolidated his
>techniques - aikido - and this was before
>his subsequent trips there.

I think you might be mixing some of the dates here. According to my notes, (mostly from AJ, and elsewhere) Deguchi and Ueshiba went to China/Mongolia/Manchuria (was all same thing then) in 1924, well before the film Budo, but well after gaining a firm grounding in Daito Ryu, as you were meaning to say.

First trip to China was 1903-4 with the army, second trip was the incident mentioned above in 1924.

I may be wrong, but I have the third visit as being in 1939, a couple during 140-41 and the last in 1942, where he met Pu Yi, which, as you rightly mention, were subsequent to 1936...

hope this helps...

[Ellis Amdur]

that's essentially my point.

Enlististed Japanese army men did not have freedom to leave the troops, so to speak, so his military service in 1902-03 is irrelevant. And I've made my point re 1924. The essential point is that what ueshiba was doing in 1936 was really what he was doing as an old man - aikido, so any trips subsequent to 1936 were irrelevant - there is nothing in Budo that you won't find, more angularly in Daito-ryu, learned mostly in the "tweens."

Best

Ellis Amdur

[chris davis 200]

I have a quite unique perspective on this as i have a dan grade in Daito Ryu and have studied 2 different lineages of Ba Gua.

When i watch Ueshiba moveing he seems to display alot of High level Ba gua characteristics.

Ellis mentions the lack of Kou and Bai but i note that he does display these steps in most turning movements, maybe not the very deep stepping but high level masters turn in a very similar way to Ueshiba.

The lack of circle walking is not all that relevant either. In the Yin Fu Branch of Ba gua there are a huge amount of straight line methods. I know some people with Huge skill in Ba Gua that have only done Yin Fu body work and no circle walking!

We must also take into account that Ba gua is a concept and principle based system - not a technique based system, so using the body work principles of Ba gua with the Techniques of Daito Ryu would basically in my experience = Aikido.

The most noticable common ground is the use of the changing centre, feeding false information and the blend and reverse principe.

Changing centre and feeding false info is nearly constantly displayed by Ueshiba. He connects, changes his centre while feeding false information to the attacker at the point of contact and then throws them with ease.

Blend and reverse is another very common theme used extensively in Ba gua that appears in Aikido but not really in Daito Ryu - even in the Aiki No Jutsu section.

Here Internal Adept Alex Kozma displays basic blend and reverse as used in Ba gua.

http://www.ukbaguainstitute.com/video/blendandreverse.wmv

We also have Ueshiba demonstrating the lead the mind principle from Ba gua a huge amount. This was perhaps his greatest skill, taking the mind of the attacker off their attack enabling him to throw them quite easily.

Here Alex demonstrates some very basic leading the mind work from Ba Gua.

http://www.ukbaguainstitute.com/video/takethemind.wmv

Now when this topic comes up i always hear the 'this technique isnt the same that technique isnt the same - he didnt do circle walking etc etc'.

But if we look at ba gua you will find that although in most branches circle walking is central to the practice, for some it isnt.

The opening of the joints, the development of twist power internally and the use of principles are central to the style.

When looking at Ueshiba we should not be looking at someone doing Pure Ba gua. This is obviously not the case. But the twist force within his body, the principles at work and the mind work that he displays are direct ba gua principles moulded to Techniques from Daito Ryu.

Did he arrive at these advanced principles from insiration - Maybe - did he lead them from the Manchurian Warlord he stayed with? maybe. One notable student of Dong hai Chuan was Manchurian and a warloard, this is the Feng branch of ba gua.

I dont think that anybody can say for definate what happened or where Ueshiba picked up some of his principle / skill work.

It seems strange to me though that people are very willing to acccept the numerous other arts asside from Daito Ryu that influenced this wonderful master, but mention Ba gua Chang and everyone starts screaming - cant be!

All we can do is wonder about this subject - because ultimatley no body will be correct.

Regards
Chris

[Ellis Amdur]

Chris - I cannot claim high level in bagua, but I have been training in the Gao system, which also has linear sets (eight sets of eight) in addition to the circular walking. Unlike you, I don't perceive "The opening of the joints, the development of twist power internally and the use of principles are central to the style" in Ueshiba, but that's merely my opinion vs. yours. I do agree with other of your observations and analysis of aikido vs. Daito-ryu - particularly regarding blending and lead.

Basically, it is narrowed down to this - given that Ueshiba was already doing aikido in pretty much it's current form in 1936, the only opportunity he would have had to learn any bagua would have been in his trip to Manchuria/Mongolia in 1924. This trip, as I recall, was 6 months total, some of it in prison, some moving from place to place. Given that he was Deguchi's bodyguard, and they were involved in political/revolutionary/religious machinations, time had to have been limited. One could imagine that he learned some bagua, or exchanged techniques - maybe not even being aware of the name, bagua, - from a guard in their entourage, if they had hired such, or if they had set down in a locale for a few weeks. Given no accounts by deshi or family members of his training in, or observation of practice of any linear (or circular) sets, I find the idea doubtful, but you are right - who knows.

On the side of your thesis is one point in particular: Ueshiba was known for his ability to observe something and "steal" a portion of it. Note, for example, his observation of Kashima Shinto-ryu leading to his use of several kata in his "aiki-ken." But no one could claim he was doing Kashima Shinto-ryu much less mastering that art.
Similarly, I can imagine, (for whatever my imagination is worth) is that he may have observed bagua, and stolen some principals of movement which help distinguish what he did from Daito-ryu.

Best

[chris davis 200]

Thanks Mr Amdur,

A superb responce as always

Kind regards
Chris