How do you instruct a child with ADHD?

[sammycerv]

I have a student who has been in my school for a year and a half. When she enrolled her parents told us that she has ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder), and their doctor told her to join Karate to calm her down. She was the most uncoordinated person in the class. Since then her coordination has greatly improved, but I think she has reached a plateau. She has the concepts, but what she is thinking isn't what she is doing. She's a great kid, and she's not a dummy. She has excellent grades in the classroom. And her attention span is a little better.

What should I do? Not just with her, but with anyone joining who has this problem. Any kind of advice is better than no advice.

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Sam Cervantes
www.geocities.com/unitedsds (http://www.geocities.com/unitedsds)

[John Lindsey]

Interesting question. Just yesterday, I heard on the radio and interview with an author of a book concerning children and sports. One thing he stressed over and over is that the kids have to enjoy what they are doing, or they will loose interest and quit. He stated something like 75% of all kids in sports leave by the time they are 13 or so.

I can't recall hearing about ADHD when I grew up in the 60's, nor did they have these fancy drugs to give problem kids. Is this recognized as a valid "illness" and what is the cause...chemical imbalance in the brain?
I ask because a little girl on my block is said to have the same thing...

[MarkF]

John,
Not only is it a valid disorder, but the drug treatment in the sixties was basically the same: Ritalin. Now, they use anything and everything to block the download of serotonin, the chemical responsible for this behavior and, well, all behavior. Other drugs in use now, are amhetamines and Zoloft, Pathcil, and Prozac. The main differencen between the newer drugs and the older ones, is that Ritalin almost conpletely blocks the dwonload of this chemical, while the others, such as Prozac, block the reuptake of serotonin. There are others which also block the re, reuptake and the re, re, reuptake of serotonin. Sedatives usually do not work the same way in children as in adults, so if you gave a child Valium, it may excite the little bugger even more. Drugs, however, is the "easy" way out. Some do respond to non-drug therapy, while others respond very well to simple changes in diet, such as eliminating sugars from them, and especially, articial sweeteners. Most pediatric psychiatrists maintain that it MUST be a chemical imbalance, but newer studies are showing that is not always the case. The problem is in our society. We self-medicate for everything today, so what is good for one must be good for the other. Ritalin is a good drug when used properly, but today, that and drugs like it, are prescribed injudicously. Older "kids (twenties)" are still taking Ritalin because they are addicted and the quick way of treating addiction is to supplement with the same drug, even though the need has passed. There are a myriad of treatments, both drug and non-drug, but which one takes time, money, and dedication by the parents as well as the physician. Supplementing a drug habit is not injurious inof itself, but "drying out" is preferable, but it takes time. One way which seems to work well and without nearly all the side-effects is "ultra-rapid detoxification." Even with heroin addicts, it works well, IF followed up with phychological counseling. In fact, it relieves as many as ninety-eight per cent of all who have gone through it, their cravings. Since it is experimental, no insurance will cover it, and it costs around ten-thousand dollars. Ah, well, what we do for our kids http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif




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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[Rebelecka]

Thank you,Mark, that was a very good overview of the medications, etc of ADHD.

My daughter has ADHD and is on Ritalin. I was a sceptic about the reality of ADHD until I tried to homeschool (she had fallen behind even in 1st grade). Talk about difficult!!! She has been in MA since kindergarten and it hasn't all been a bed or roses. She went without testing for about two and a half years but she never wanted to quit. (I checked frequently to make sure).

Now, after 2 yrs on Ritalin both her school-work and her MA have improved. I think age has helped too. Soooooo; Yes, ADHD kids can (seem to) plateau but if the desire is there, patience and persistance (long-term, maybe years long) is the key. RebeccaE.

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Rebecca Eck
Bujinkan Student

[MarkF]

Thank you, Rebecca. I think society has a penchant to sheck itself now and then, and this is one of those times. That is when you see questions (valid ones) about therapy. Ritalin therapy is a godsend to many, and it works. This gives the parents some time to think about it, give it some well-deserved thought, and plans for the future. A day will come when your daughter may no longer need drugs, but in the meantime, it is very valid therapy. Something new in the supplement world is Valerian. Some call it "nature's valium" and I can tell you that it is a drug, and no question about it. It knocked me on my butt, and I took a third of the recommended dosage. It is all natural, though, and it, so far, has shown absolutely no long term side-effects, such as addiction. You may want to give it some thought. Even if it doesn't produce the desired effect on your daughter, it definitely will help you relax. BTW: No prescription required, people are getting off their prescribed anxiolytics (Valium, Xanax, Ativan, etc. by using this in its place with no withdrawal syndrome), and it is at least as good for many as the drugs described above. It is showing promise. Just a thought.

Nice to see you back, Rebecca. How are things in Rio Rancho?

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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[This message has been edited by MarkF (edited 05-26-2000).]

[sammycerv]

Thanks for the replies. Is there any way for me to make her stay focused? There are times when she is perfect and there are other times when I really don't want to deal with her.

Rebecca, how are you able to handle those types of situations? I admire you for being able to have the patience to handle these kinds of situations on a continual basis.

Mark, do you have this disorder? If you do, how do you deal with it after the meds stop kicking in?

I learned about ADHD when I was in nursing school, but never dealt with it until now.



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Sam Cervantes
www.geocities.com/unitedsds (http://www.geocities.com/unitedsds)

[MarkF]

Sam,
Do I seem like I do? If so, I apologize for that.
No, I practice clinical pharmacy so it kind of goes with the territory. Usually, when dealing with a highly addictive drug such as this, the dosage is raised. However, in children, this is usually not necessary. It kind of works in an opposing waythan in adults, but I have known some who continued the Ritalin (or amphetamines) into adulthood, as "kicking" became difficult. It is rare that a child of eighteen needs medicating, with the above expection. That is why it needs monitoring. It is much easier for the child to stop while the drug still effectively acts as a kind of sedative, and some, who have grown beyond this need, must take true anxiolytics while detoxing. It can be very difficult when to know the proper time to stop. Not too long ago, there was a shortage of Ritalin because of its inclusion as CII controlled substance. This type of medication has limits on how much can be manufactured or imported. There are also ceilings on the wholeseller. No refills are allowed, and the prescription must be written in the physicians' hand, and some states have even tougher controls. This is a touchy subject within the medical community, especially when listed in the same control category as morphine and cocaine.



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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[Sochin]

Hello, I'm Sochin's wife, Pamela. I'm a special ed teacher in our public school system and have worked for years with special needs children, ADHD being one of the categories that got these children into the low teacher:student ratio classes. I am also a dojo owner and sensei. I have trained in the martial arts for many years.
Thank you to the doctors who send us, the dojos, these challenging students so they can learn discipline, coordination, respect for authority, and, of course, to increase their self-esteem. And we learn patience. From your description, it sounds like she is not a disruptive student. That's a help. So, her body doesn't do what she thinks she's telling it to do? Not a natural athlete.... even "normal" children mature physically, emotionally, and mentally at different rates. (You did not say how old she is.) Hopefully these ideas will help.
1. Consider why she is continuing to train....is it to advance in her rank or is it because the dojo is a place where she feels she belongs...or a place in the sports-world for her. She may not belong in that world at school where highly competitive team sports and athletes "rule".
2. Be honest with your observations of her progress. Gently.
3. Even good athletes plateau.
4. Use video to give her feedback. Use mirrors, if she can manage the reverse image.
5. Choose one skill (a basic one) and let her see how her performance is different than the correct form. Because her internal feedback systems aren't giving her an accurate picture, she has to trust you to let her know when a correction is needed. With time and effort, she can teach her body to be aware of itself. Privately, work one correction with her, a key one like stances perhaps. She may understand better by hearing or by seeing, or even by being moved into the correct position.
6. Start with one key movement, maybe stances, and develop a simple cue that you can give her during class that will let her know she needs to attend to that one skill.
7. You can also have a cue word for her when she's off task. And, if she continues to be off-task, disruptive and/or demanding too much of your attention, you can ask her to leave the floor until she is able to slow down, stop talking, stop 'vibrating', etc. This isn't meant to be punitive. It is meant to help her start to monitor herself. Again, talk to her about this plan before you do it. The sensei and the student are working together.
8. If she starts to make progress during class, don't be disappointed when she comes the next time and everything has been lost....patience.
9. Time, maturity, and persistent effort will result in changes. Her muscles will learn the new patterns. ( We are talking years here)
10. Share your intentions with her parents...they can back you and hopefully bolster her up if she starts to get disappointed.

Sochin's wife...Pamela

[This message has been edited by Sochin (edited 05-27-2000).]

[MarkF]

Thank you Pamela for some very good advice. Patience, like anything else, is learned, and at different levels.

Years ago, I had a kid in my class who could not adjust even to the simplest of excercises. I worked with him as much as I could, but these classes had about fifty different students at any given time. He didn't seem umcoordinated, and had an engaging smile and laughed a lot. But even when doing the simplest of atemi excercises (judo) he just couldn't do it. I found out later he was retarded due to an injury at birth. I would physically place him in the correct positions but the furthest he got was rolling side to side (not correct). After a while I promoted him based on how hard he tried. This helped for a while and his parents were insistent on keeping him in class. Today he is a very good competitor, and he is a young adult. He only does two throws and knows how to escape osaekomiwaza, but can do none of the techniques as tori. But he does win and he still has a happy smile, win or lose. You are right, Pamela, sometimes patience is a virtue, especially with kids with inherent problems. Thank you.



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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[sammycerv]

Pamela,

Thank you very much for the needed advice. I will use these techniques, and hopefully it will help her.



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Sam Cervantes
www.geocities.com/unitedsds (http://www.geocities.com/unitedsds)

[Mitch Saret]

I'll add my bit for whatever it's worth.

I believe that ADD/ADHD is a genuine condition. I also believe that it is highly over-diagnosed. Whenever a kid has a problem, he's ADD or she's ADHD. In my youth I believe I would have been diagnosed with the disorder, but I wanted to play because the work was to easy, or I had gotten it done sooner, or whatever. I was perceived as a problem for most teachers in elementary school because of this.

Now, for teaching them. I have several ADD/ADHD in my classes. We constantly move around the dojo during class. We start with the lineup/bow in and calesthenics. We move to one corner, or side depending on how many ar present, and do a series of skill building drills. We will form a circle and learn a new technique. We will form a double line for one steps. We line up on the other side for a skill building game. We get back to the original line, then sit in a half circle for the word of the week. Finally, we lineup again for announcements and bow out.

Everything is structured, but always different, always changing to keep interest high. From all the research material I have read, this is one of the keys. I have two books at the dojo on this and when I get back I will get the titles and post them.

Good luck.


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With respect,

Mitch Saret

[MarkF]

Hi Mitch,
You're right, of course. It is way over-diagnosed. Some of the fault lies within the schools, and some are just plain wrong.

My nephew seemed to be a kid with some of the symptoms of ADD. He was about to enter the second grade and he didn't know how to read. I was amazed. I asked my brother and sister-in-law why he wasn't able to do something I knew before kindergarten. he said it was the schools, and reading was not at the top of the list. To this day, I am thoroughly shocked, as when he did enter the second grade, he picked it up, and I mean fast. For his eighth birthday, I gave him The Jungle Book and The Cat Who Walked by Himself by Rudyard Kipling. He not only read the books, he did a class project based on the Jungle Book. He still, at times, seems out of control, but, like you, it was the boredom which made it seem that way. He does get very good grades in school, but I am still amazed that he didn't know how to read at the age of seven. I suppose preferences have changed a lot since the fifties.

But the problem also is out of hand. If your kid has a problem like this but is not really ADD, a diagnosis must be made so as to get the right form of treatment. This goes hand in hand with the HMOs demanding a diagnosis and immediate treatment. Thus, the diagnosis of ADD, and treatment is Ritalin (or something similar). Doctors have their backs to the wall on this one and are forced to lie about the diagnosis. This comes from the need of some children whose parents cannot afford psychotherapy and Ritalin is much cheaper and widely available. Sometimes it is only a matter of keeping a kid busy, eg, martial arts, or a diet change, some home schooling (along with regular school), or something else just as effective.

As a side note, the California Medical Association is suing two of the largest of the HMOs with the hope for a similar outcome as Texas' lawsuit against Aetna with a good outcome (the case was settled before it reached court with agreements from the HMOs not to penalize doctors for referral and/or certain diagnosis, and also not to pay doctors for withholding treatment, as is the case with virtually all HMOs/managed care companies). If this case has a similar outcome, it could affect the entire HMO business by bannning them from making medical decisions, and by making doctors out to be liars for simply wanting the best of care for their patients. Over eighty percent of doctors in surveys said they lie to the HMOs in order to do what is best.

So yes, it is over-diagnosed, but the reasons are not necessarily out of belief that his syndrome is out of control. On the other hand, we cannot go back to a fee-for-service system as it is prohibitively expensive. If medical doctors would stop crying about the penalties for treating those who have this kind of insurance, and just practice sound medicine, they would not have to fight the companies today. The only people who are not culpable, are the patients. They will get screwed no matter what happens. Only in America. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif



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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[MarkF]

In rereading my previous post, I made the comment "If medical doctors would stop crying about the penalties, etc." My exlanations would be that physicians knew the day was coming and with plenty of warning, and did or said nothing. Now that it is out of hand, they are complaining about it, but with good reason. I meant only that, as the pharmacy community did, they should have donesomething then, and perhaps they wouldn't have to make decisions as they have since that fateful day.

So to the medical doctors who read this, I am not blaming them, but for one thing. Most refused to see beyond their own noses, and sat on it. It began in the fifties with Ross-Loos and continued in the sixties with Kaiser-Permanente. The good thing about Kaiser, though, is that the doctors who work there are all, to a one, salaried. There is no reason for them to lie and cheat a system which forces them into the dilemma which exists today.



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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[Rebelecka]

Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you Sam. Pamela gave some excellent info and advice for you. I fully understand how some days are great and some days you don't even want them to be there! I can have that feeling myself and it's my own kid http://216.10.1.92/ubb/wink.gif !

Pamela's advice about 1 on 1 work and "keywords" is very good but doesn't always work until the child is old enough...Too young and they can't remember the "keyword!" My daughter picked up on that in 4th grade.

I also assist at a kids class in MA and I have found that sometimes there is an immaturity issue that may disguise itself as ADHD. Children mature at different rates and just because little Jane is very mature and focused at age 7 doesn't mean that little JoAnn will be. I think that the MA are very good to help focus in all people but the key to working with children is patience as they are all at such different levels emotionally and intellectually.

Good luck, Sam!


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Rebecca Eck
Bujinkan Student

[MarkF]

Hi, Rebecca,
That is good advice, and, as you do, I teach kids' classes. Don't you find the female students, in general, are much more managable? Granted, it is an extreme generalization, but, of course, those kids with symptoms and not with this diagnosis, are treated anyway. I 've found this to be more the case with the male children than the female ones. My son is twenty-seven, but sometimes I would like to put him to bed with a nice, heavy dose of Haldol http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif He was one of those who easily could have been dignosed with ADD, but thankfully, he grew up in time. This seems to be a problem today, as parents who think there is something going on, want physicians to do something about it right away, as they, the parents, do not have the time to deal with it. That is where I find most of the overt over-diagnosing to lay. Usually though, after being on therapy like this for a week, the parent must withhold treatment, as they learn quickly that the child does not indeed, need to be medicated, it only turns up the heat under the frying pan.

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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[Sochin]

ADHD doesn't mean morally deficient...but a morally deficient person with the symptoms of the syndrome will often get into trouble at school and with the law more than a morally deficient person without it because of the impulse control issue, which tends to get them all labeled as "delinquent."

My problem with "syndromes" is that it may indicate to the child or to a caregiver / teacher that the child is "not responsible for their behavior" whereas the only moral stance is that they are always responsible for their "choices" and if there is a problem, they must tend to it closer, not ignore it because they are afflicted.

If it is seen as a focus for problem solving, excellent...if it is used to mitigate their resposibility, problems will be created.

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<A HREF="http://pub6.ezboard.com/btheseniorscommunity" TARGET=_blank>Ted Truscott,
The Fighting Old man</A>

[sammycerv]

Excellent advice given by all. I hope to implement a couple of these techniques at class tonight.

Some have replied that ADD is overdiagnosed. If this is the case, what is their problem then? One of the other instructors thinks its laziness and the kid needs as swift kick in the rear end to set them straight. My cousin was diagnosed with ADD when he was 3 y.o. Prior to that, though, he was diagnosed as autistic.

You talk to one doctor he/she says its one thing. You go to another and they say something else. I've worked with many doctors. Some good , some bad, some the suckiest. Oh well, you xcan't have all the breaks in life!!!

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Sam Cervantes
www.geocities.com/unitedsds (http://www.geocities.com/unitedsds)

[MarkF]

Go to a surgeon, he wants to cut. Go to a physician, he wants to medicate. Go to a "shrink," he will do a little of both.

Ted made a point which is often the case and he is right. You cannot ignore the behavior of a child simply because he has a problem. Some people call it spoiling the child, but sometimes, it is a true behavioral problem like Tourette's Syndrome. You just can't win, no matter what you do. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif



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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[Rebelecka]

Dear Sam: An excellent book to read is "Driven to Distraction" by Edward M Hallowell,MD and John J. Ratey, MD ; published by Touchstone Simon & Schuster. It address many points, including Ted's point of using ADHD as a "cop-out." My feeling is that anyone who has to deal with ADHD should read it. It does give a criteria for being evaluated for the disorder. But again, immaturity can easily be mistaken for it. Unfortunately, time is often needed to be sure.
Hope it helps!

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Rebecca Eck
Bujinkan Student

[Tonya Easton]

Wow Hot Topic! I completely agree with those who say this is a very OVER DIAGNOSED condition! It's sad that those VERY FEW children with the disorder are often "blown off or labled" because of the many kids and parents who abuse it!

I could go on for days on this topic.... to me it is equal to child abuse when used on those children, (most diagnosed), who are just difficult to handle, bored, low self esteem, ignored....(again I could go on and on..)but how I feel in regards to teaching them....

I have a nursing background and have taught children in dance and in little league in the past. Of course there are always those kids that drive you nuts, are discipline problems, and take up alot of time from the other kids who really want to learn whether they are ADD or not.

My advice is this. Don't take a diagnosis from a parent as the "final answer". Observe for yourself, and don't treat them differently because they are diagnosed. These kids have had all the special treatment they can handle. I'm not saying the style in which you teach them may not be different.... but they need to fit in.

POINTS TO PONDER
How does the parent interact with the child? Is the child acting up more when they are present? It could be an attention issue with them and maybe you could ask the parent to leave the child during training for a day or two and see if things change.

Is the child respectful to you? Are they looking for a role model? If it appears so...play it up. It may make all the difference in their lives as they grow older.

Is the child disrespectful to you? Demand respect or ask the child to leave class. If the ground rules aren't established, whether they are ADD or not, then you can't help them. They have to know those lines are firmly drawn.

Always give some positive input to the parent. If the child is ADD, trust me the parent has continuousely heard about how "bad" or difficult their child is. And if they knew how to fix it or help you fix it, then they probably wouldn't be diagnosed the ADD in the first place.

I will also E-mail this post to my Sensei, he has an amazing gift for teaching.

Thank You for an interesting post!



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Tonya D. Easton

[KenpoKev]

Wonderful Topic!

My eldest son was diagnosed (3 opinions) with ADD (not ADHD) and after a great deal of consideration, he was placed on a mild dose of Ritalin (10 mg daily). We saw an immediate improvement in his school work and class behavior. He is medicated only on school days and after 4 years of this, it looks like we're seeing the light at the edge of the tunnel. He is beginning to get control of his focus and I think the martial arts training has helped a great deal. He is one of my best students.

The expression "Fruit doesn't fall far from the tree." applies here. While there wasn't a label ADD, when I was a kid...I was certainly ADD. I didn't learn to focus in school until I managed to attend college at age 20! Eventually I became overfocused to the point that I can tune out all kinds of distractions (I was a bartender in college and could do my economics homework between drink orders while the band was playing!).

My point here for those of you that are dealing with ADD children (yours or others) is that there is hope, just be patient.

I really appreciate the points made in previous posts, you have provided me some excellent advice and suggestions. Thank you again for beginning this excellent topic.

BTW I really appreciate Mark's input concerning pharmicological issues.

Respectfully,
Kevin Schaller

[javaburnz]

It's really disturbing to see how uneducated people are about ADD/ADHD ,and the drugs used for thier treatment. I have ADHD, so do both of my brothers, my mother and other family members. ADD is an underactivity of the frontal lobe, this region controls impulse control and attention among other things. Stimulants such as ritilan, cylert, etc. stimulate this part of the brain bring it up to a level of activity that would be considered "normal" Ritilan does not make anyone smarter, it just allows children and adults with ADD to function with less impulsivity and pay more attention. As far as "Ritilan addicts" this is hogwash, I have been taking ritilan sice I was in the fifth grade I am now a 4th year college student. I have gone on and off the medication without any withdrawls or need for the medication.

I do agree that ADD is probably often mistaken for other conditions and it is much easier to give a pill than think about years of counselling.

As far as teaching a child with ADD/ADHD be PATIENT. Children and adults (i can attest)with ADD/ADHD have alot of mental issues with failure, when we are young we are told that we have potential but we are just lazy. Try to teach the child in short one on one sessions if possible. Also you said that the child did well in school, I bet if you ask the parents they will tell you the child is on some sort of medication. alot of parents think that these medications should only be given during school time, you should ask them to try to give the child the medication while at class. I have tried the same with myself and trying to practice matrial arts with and without medication is like night and day. Rember this is a disablity it is a chemical imbalance of the brain, the child is trying but it takes alot more for them to get it than it does for the non ADD/ADHD child.

nate

[omega-3 man]

Though focus and discipline are useful for those with ADHD/ADD, there is an actual cure for this and asperger's syndrome and bipolar. Five months ago I was dying of heart disease, arthritis, and diabetes and I had bipolar and aspergers. I heard high dosages of fish oil with a 7:1 EPA to DHA ratio with modifications in diet and the taking of anti-oxidants to help absorption may help with diabetes and heart disease. After three weeks my whole life changed, I could read where I was dyslexic. I had amazing balance where i suffered badly from dyspraxia, the heart disease faded, and the symptoms of both the diaqbetes and arthritis went away. I lost the gynecomastia that had basically ruined my life since i was 12. My metabolism changed in general I changed. I began to investigate and found numerous, numerous, numerous studies involving omega-3 therapy. For those who read this and are curious I found the man who discovered the "omega-3 deficiency." His name is Dr. Andrew Stoll, he is head of Psychopharmacology at Harvard. His book "the Omega-3 connection" allowed me to understand why this happened to me. For those intersted if you prescribe to the diet, basically in the tradition of the nihongoryorio, and take the right type of fish oil, they will excel at the martial arts, they will excel at school, they will become calm and non aggressive. In general they will now have the tools to excel at life. for those interested, or if you try this and get results please contact me at djrecoon@yahoo.com. I am looking for others who have seen what this amazing form of therapy can do.

[George Kohler]

omega-3 man,

Welcome to E-Budo. Please sign your full name. It is one of our rules here on E-Budo.

Regards,

[omega-3 man]

no i'm not trying to shill a book and i did not notice how old the thread was. I am someone who was dying until about 4 months ago and saw it under the topic page and thought i would try to help others. In the process you need to be specific so those interested can find some hope. This is still a vital topic in this world and the fish oil therapy is still mostly in the research phase so most doctors especially AMA bound don't even offer this as a solution even though it is saving lives daily. There is a film called Lorenzo's oil which deals with another EFA deficiency it helped me understand how much really is not known about the subject. Those here who have already moved away from the trappings of western culture understand best that the westen diet is poison.
hajimeshite, daviddesu, douzo yorishiku. gaukuseinozen to aikido. Most importantly of all though a fellow traveler on the secret path of life.

[Prince Loeffler]

no i'm not trying to shill a book and i did not notice how old the thread was. I am someone who was dying until about 4 months ago and saw it under the topic page and thought i would try to help others. In the process you need to be specific so those interested can find some hope. This is still a vital topic in this world and the fish oil therapy is still mostly in the research phase so most doctors especially AMA bound don't even offer this as a solution even though it is saving lives daily. There is a film called Lorenzo's oil which deals with another EFA deficiency it helped me understand how much really is not known about the subject. Those here who have already moved away from the trappings of western culture understand best that the westen diet is poison.
hajimeshite, daviddesu, douzo yorishiku. gaukuseinozen to aikido. Most importantly of all though a fellow traveler on the secret path of life.


Hello Mr. Duke !

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Again, Welcome to E-Budo ! Hope you enjoy your stay and please remain seated at all times.

[Phil Farmer]

I have many years of experience in mental health and with emotionally disturbed kids. The idea that an omega 3 oil can do miracles is not scientific and can cause families and individuals real problems.

In the early 1980's, this same sort of thing happened for treating schizophrenia. Some person had an experience where maximum doses of several vitamines helped schizophrenics, it only helped a few and the effect was transient. Anything will help a little, for some people. To encourage people who are dyslexic or have adhd to stop meds (often way over prescribed to be sure) or to try an unscientific and untested treatment is irresponsible. To encourage it in the martial arts setting is even worse.

Parents come to a sensei or instructor with a certain trust and to have that person violate that trust by going outside of their expertise is just plain wrong. Your personal beliefs about personal issues should never spill out onto the mat. This whole new addition to this thread is irresponsible.

I have been teaching childrens classes for the last twelve years and I have the backgroung to advise parents on how to parent and treat their kids. I don't do it, it isn't in the job description at the dojo. It is in the job description when I am working professionally. The two must always remain separate.

Phil Farmer

[wmuromoto]

Amen to that, Phil.

I have nothing but great admiration for martial arts teachers who can work with mentally and/or physically challenged kids; but I think one should be up front with their parents and tell them that what you teach is martial arts, not therapy for ADD, ADHD or any other illness (then again, it may be mental therapy for a lot of people, myself included, to go tumble around once a week and forget about work...). If the training aids in the overall betterment of the child, then more power to you. Don't promise miracles, only hard work and whatever good comes out of hard work.

On the other hand, having such disabilities should not discourage a student who really wants to learn. It's just harder all around, for the student and the teacher, to be able to focus and progress through a class. So you measure advances based on individual growth, not in terms of other students' growth.

Much good discussion here. And some fallacious remarks by some people, too. Wheat and chaff.

Wayne Muromoto

[Blackwood]

I made an interesting connection in the last few weeks. I realized that when one of my students did kata with the class, he was always out of synch with the rest of the group, half a move ahead. It gets rather frustrating to have to remind him to do it with everyone else.

One solution is that I have him do his kata solo. He is much more focussed and there is no 'comparison' with others to worry about.

[Duncan B]

Wow, really good thread.
I'm not an expert on ADD/ADHD by any stretch of the imagination. However from my (non MA) teaching experience, most students with this disorder get into significantly higher difficulties in school where it is demanded that they sit and listen in conditions that are not condusive to them...naturally like all of us they get board (quicker) and can't control their impulses.

A basic rule of thumb that we use in teaching in the UK (don't know if others share it in the US and elsewhere, although I would be interested to know), is to find the child's age and then subtract a number (can't remember exactly but I think it might be 3), you then have the AVERAGE concentration span of that age group in minutes. This max's out at about 18 minutes!

Therefore whilst most of us can extend this with training and stress (remember your exams?) an average child in your children's class can concentrate on one thing for about 5-10 minutes...if you're asking them to do something longer then you'll get problems. A child with ADD/ADHD may find this time is shorter, hence you'll need to be quicker with adjusting your activities and reaching that child with some form of contact.

If you have assistant instructors, you could share the time around. Although you would need to determine shared expectations and standards first.

On a side note, I've found students who have mild ASD can find the dojo a fairly good place. What are anyone else's experiences?

[kimiwane]

...her coordination has greatly improved, but I think she has reached a plateau. She has the concepts, but what she is thinking isn't what she is doing.

Sam, maybe the problem is that you have her doing too many things.

"A thing" usually comprises many smaller components. Maybe you should break it down for her and let her work on smaller elements, then put them back together for the total effect.

Also, if you can arrange for her to practice the smaller components without "ichi, ni, san, shi!" it might seep into her mind better.

Another thing that's good for kids with ADHD (I've read) is a lot of crawling practice. That's easy to work into a judo class, but maybe not so easy in karate. Also, these are particular crawling exercises--not just general crawling. Also, I wouldn't advise anyone to change or alter their medication.

But if they problem is that she's not doing what she thinks she's doing, breaking it down to tiny movements and working on those before recombining might help her a lot.

Best to you.

[kimiwane]

Some have replied that ADD is overdiagnosed. If this is the case, what is their problem then?

As MarkF said, doctors rely on their specialty.

In my opinion, it isn't a medical problem at all. It's a social systemic problem.

Look at animals in zoos. They often become entirely neurotic because of their confinement, repeating the same meaningless motion endlessly. In one example I saw, an elephant had adopted this swaying motion and wouldn't stop for anything. In other words, many zoo animals just go crazy. Stir crazy.

And I think that's what's wrong with our children. You sit them in seats all day and make them look down at books, don't let them move their bodies and expect them to concentrate like good cubicle drones, ADHD is what you get. In my opinion.

When I was a kid, we walked about a mile to school each way and had plenty of play period, plenty of movement, and plenty of play after school. Our parents didn't see us from 8:00 to 5:00 and we were on foot and free in the world for a large part of it.

Can't do that today. The kid is buckled in, dropped off, seated and disciplined to stay in his seat, march in lines if they go anywhere, and play some kind of regimented thing at recess. Then they're buckled into the car again, taken home and parked in front of the television until dinner time.

The real answer is to let kids MOVE MORE. Make the school activities more active, more physical.

The problem is that isn't likely to happen. The schools are going to become more bureaucratic and less child oriented. They're going to treat children more and more like business executives. Those who succeed will be so morally twisted they won't even know what real humans feel.

The rest will flounder and those at the lower end of adjustment will be diagnosed with ADHD.

In my opinion.

Best wishes.

[Chris Brown]

Mr. Orange,

I must both agree and disagree with a couple of your points in your previous posts.

First, I must qualify that I am not a martial arts instructor. However, I do have extensive experience conducting professional instruction and manual skills training at a number of levels and in a number of environments, so I do have teaching experience. I have also had ADHD my entire life, although I have only had it diagnosed for the last 7 years, well into my adulthood.
This diagnosis came after several batteries of tests administered by professionals from many fields, and confirmed again recently. Prior to that, I was simply written off as a troublemaker/loser/you name it. We have historically always been the people about whom it has been remarked, "And he/she had so much potential, too. I wonder why they were never able to (insert lofty life goal here)?" Simply put, we have to work 3 times as hard to get to the same goal as our peers oftentimes. Stay with me, and I shall explain why. Hopefully the recognition of this as a true, treatable and manageable medical issue will help stop that Bravo-Sierra for many of the kids growing up now, and give the ones who truly have ADD/ADHD a chance to access the right resources early enough that the majority can reach the lofty goals without having to endure what those who went before did.

I would strongly disagree with you that ADD/ADHD are not medical maladies, but social problems. They are most certainly medical syndromes (albeit over-diagnosed and used as a scapegoat by a failed socialist educational system to explain away the miserable results seen here in the US. This scapegoating is what has made ADD/ADHD into a social problem.). These conditions respond well to different forms and combinations of pharmacological, occupational, clinical, and other therapies, while social problems generally do not. Pumping someone full of amphetamines and calling it cured is another failure of the system. It takes much more effort than that, and there is no "cure." There are, however, degrees of successful management. Indeed, someone determined, and well motivated, can do a great deal to develop a fair degree of control over the more obvious symptoms without any therapies. Having grown up in an era before ADHD was clinically described, and the schools were allowed to mete out liberal doses of public corporal punishment for those unable to sit still, for example, trust me, I know. It was a tool of survival and maintenance of self-respect. It really hacks me off now to hear people who haven't lived with it, (and forgive me if you do, for I am given to presume from your comments that you don't) dismiss it as just not having enough exercise, etc. I've had to listen to such unfounded pronouncements all my life. I grew up in an environment (a working farm) that included not only plenty of sports and outdoor play, but also a great deal of regular manual labor as well. It was totally ineffective concerning my symptoms and their manifestations. It's impossible just to "work the ADD out" of someone, just as it is impossible to work the schizophrenia out of someone.

However, you have also cited a very important true point in your posts.
It is a good strategy to break down items to be taught into small pieces. When you deal with someone with ADD/ADHD, particularly if it is not well controlled with medication and/or therapy, this is essential. It has been my experience that this is the only way I can learn long, complicated tasks. I must reduce them to small, self contained portions, and then master them individually. Once a small portion is mastered, then learning the next portion begins. It also helps to reinforce the previous portion by repeating it each time you get ready to start on the next section. That way a continuity is built, and the lessons are retained. This is particularly helpful to me as a strategy in learning kata. I think you may find that people who learn this way will take longer to learn, but will have better retention in the long run. It aids in developing muscle memory, so to speak.

Luckily I train in a dojo now where this is possible, and is not questioned. I train in a koryu bujutsu ryu-gi, within which the training itself is regarded as a lifetime pursuit. So, I have the rest of my life to master what I can, and I have neither belts nor other such "benchmarks" along the way to worry with. Development of proper skills is all that matters, and with the pressures of belt-testing dates, and so forth removed, I am able to freely concentrate on only this development. I am ready to move on when I have mastered the tasks before me, however long that takes, and that length of time carries neither peer pressure, nor social stigma along with it for any student of any age. All I must supply are the motivation, dedication, and effort. These are easier to get from an ADD person when it doesn't feel forced.

However, in the past in dojo where there are belts and tests and pressure to make deadlines, it was a recipe for failure. In my view putting an ADD kid into an environment such as a dojo that pushes students to attain shodan in 2-3 years is a poor idea. ADD/ADHD people don't do well in environments like that. The more the pressure is increased in an inversely proportional relationship to the time available in which to accomplish the task, the more likely that person is to see it as futile, since they will not progress in a manner like their non-ADHD peers. They are likely quit at that phase, as the pressure to do something that seems impossible rises. Most undiagnosed ADD kids, by the time they are old enough to train in MA have been told they are underachievers and failures long enough already to believe and accept it. They will just revert to that mindset. Negative motivation of any sort is a guaranteed backfire when dealing with ADD people.

There are, however, some benefits to having ADD/ADHD, and if both teacher and student can learn to utilize those to their mutual benefit, things will be much smoother. First, although their grades may not say so on their faces, the vast majority of ADD/ADHD people are very intelligent. They have the capacity, when they are interested in a subject, and are kept interested by a talented instructor, to absorb, process, retain, and apply an astounding amount of information in a short time. It is keeping them interested/focused that is key. The best ways to accomplish this are to keep them involved in the instruction, and become adept at recognizing when they need a break for a couple of minutes to let the brain "cool down". If an ADD kid is allowed to drift to their "natural" position, the back or edge of the group, they will begin to drift away into their own thoughts, rather than stay on task. Keep them front and center, and involve them regularly as an assistant in teaching/demonstrations of technique. When you notice the small clues that you are losing them, such as drifting eyes, lots of shifting around, or seeming "stuck" at one particular point in what they are attempting to learn, then quietly suggest that they go get some water, or take a couple of minutes off of the mat. This brain "cool down" will usually help quite a bit, but as an instructor, sometimes it must be recognized that there are points where an ADD person hits their limit, and that's all they can absorb for that session. No amount of yelling, push-ups, etc., will change that fact. There is just a limit sometimes, and it can't be circumvented. It's best at that point to let that student do something else or end that session for them. Forcing them to continue when they are incapable of doing so gains naught. This is not do condone letting someone get lazy and shirk out of learning.. It takes time and observation to learn the difference between when a student has had enough and can't absorb anymore, and when they are just being lazy.

Next, a large percentage of ADD/ADHD people have the ability to hyperfocus on a topic/activity in which they are greatly interested. Different things trigger this ability in different people, but if you, as instructors, can learn what triggers it in your ADD students, you will witness something amazing. Those who are capable, will be able to focus on their task to a degree that will oftentimes exclude all the goings on around them at the time. They can acheive incredible amounts during these periods of hyperfocus. When you have a student that hits that particular groove, let them run with it. Again, the key is interest in the topic, and the maintenence thereof.

Finally, it may help those of you who do not live with this to understand what is going on inside the head of a person with ADD. That person's mind works at incredible speed all day and all night, every day. They are constantly thinking about two, three, four or more things at once, and are moving so quickly from subject to subject on all trains of thought that transitions from subject to subject may seem disjointed and nonsensical to someone who doesn't live with it. If it were possible, I wish that many who don't live with this had the poortunity to read an exact, written transcript of just a couple of hours of the thoughts processed by the ADD mind. It might be enlightening, if you consider the amount of "mental chatter" that goes on in the average persons head from day to day. There is a constant, deafening roar of thoughts in the brain, and anything to be learned must compete against that roar. The person trying to learn, not only has to expend the effort it takes to learn, but also must constantly battle all of that noise that they are powerless to stop in order to do so. Hence, my recommendation for brain "cool downs" periodically. "Pay attention," can be one of the most difficult to execute directions ever heard. We know what you have to say is important. We don't mean you any disrespect. In fact, we are fighting harder than most anyone else to hear and learn what it is you have to teach. But, because you don't live in the cacaphony, you don't see it, and all some people see is a lazy underachiever. (As an aside, the perception of underacheiving in school is usually due to boredom with the topic. Once again, interest is the key.)

On the whole, the practice of martial arts has been an instrumental part of my continuing management of my ADHD. The self-discipline and motivation to succeed in a healthy environment have been of great assistance, as has been the exposure to real meditative techniques. The practice of meditation has been a huge part of learning to recognize what my ADHD really is, and how to try to deal with so much mental activity. IMHO, getting ADD kids started with simple breathing meditation on a daily basis as soon as possible would go far toward helping them gain more control at an earlier age over their symptoms, and perhaps reduce some need for pharmacological therapy along the way. This is especially so since, in many, many cases, ADD/ADHD and severe clinical depression tend to develop hand-in-hand at a relatively early age, particularly among males.

These are just my opinions and observations based upon my own experiences and upon my attempts to learn what I can about this over the years.

If I have offended with the tone or content of my post, then please accept my apologies. Offense was not my intent. It was merely to state my points.

[Duncan B]

An excellent post Chris.

Would it be ok if I kept a copy saved for my own use, I'm a school teacher and find much of what has been said here is just as true (with careful adjustment) as for the martial arts instruction.

A quick google search threw up some useful sites, however this one:
http://www.help4adhd.org/en/about/wwk
Has a series of factsheets that may be useful - number 13 succeeding in college has some useful ideas

Also:
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/adhd.htm
Has some suggestions which can developed in conjunction.

"Management techniques for parents and teachers

* Create a daily routine for the child, eg homework schedules, bedtime and mealtime routines.

* Be specific in your instructions to the child and make clear and reasonable requests, eg instead of telling the child to 'behave' suggest 'play quietly with your Lego for 10 minutes'.

* Set clear and easily understood boundaries, eg how much TV they may watch, and that rudeness is unacceptable.

* Be consistent in the handling and managing of the child.

* Remove disturbing or disruptive elements from their daily routine. For example, remove siblings from the room when they are doing homework or turn off the TV.

* Plan structured programmes aimed at gradually lengthening the child's concentration span and ability to focus on tasks.

* Communicate with the child on a one-to-one basis and avoid addressing other children at the same time.

* Use rewards (eg stickers, tokens or even money) consistently and frequently to reinforce appropriate behaviour such as listening to adults and concentrating.

* Use sanctions (eg loss of privileges, being sent to their room) for unacceptable behaviour or 'overstepping' of boundaries."

I'd be interested in what any others think of these suggestions.

Regards
Duncan

[Chris Brown]

Hi, Duncan. Please feel free to use the post as you see fit. If my experience can be of assistance to someone else, I am glad to help.

Concerning the other suggestions you posted, please let me be the first to say that they are right on the money, IMHO. I would suspect that a lot more ground would be gained following those plans. To this day, I have implemented the lion's share of those myself as a mechanism to get by. For example, having a regular routine, and just as importantly, having a regular place to put everything so that it may be easily located when needed are essential. Those are some great ideas for dealing with an ADD/ADHD kid in a productive fashion. Modified somewhat, most would be very helpful to spouses and loved ones of adult ADD/ADHD people to help life run more smoothly.

Also, please feel free to make the necessary correction to my punctuation and to my typos.

[Duncan B]

This is one of the reasons why I love internet forums. Come for the martial arts...stay for the development of your understanding of your own job.

Some members may find the following web site useful:
http://www.mkadhd.org.uk/home.htm
This has loads of links explaining the issue, medication, strategies, (UK) educational and legal positions AND related disorders/problems. I've been dipping in and out all day (of the web site that is, not consciousness).

One thing I would point out is as follows:
Virtually all of these techniques that have been suggested actually correspond to what would be defined as "good teaching" methods anyway for ALL people (unless they have one of the other forms of special educational needs).

Therefore the good news is that by asking the question, you'll become a better all round instructor! The bad news is you'll find it takes longer to plan, you'll probably become obsessed and end up divorced, sad and lonely! Well the first one at least.

Regards

[Chris Brown]

You say "divorced" as though it were a bad thing!

[kimiwane]

I must both agree and disagree with a couple of your points in your previous posts.

Likewise. I can hardly dispute your personal experience and I am not a doctor, but I think the whole problem is much more one of social organization.

I read that you had a very active childhood, but still developed ADHD. My comments were not that pure physical activity will cure or prevent the problem, but I do feel that lack of physical activity (getting worse each year) in school makes the problem worse.

I mentioned some apparently successful treatments of ADHD through "crawling exercises." This has to do with the idea that our personalities are affected by things that happen when we are first learning to stand and walk. If our parents "coerce" us to stand and walk earlier than we are ready, it can cause us to develop a pattern of muscular efforts that will let us stand and walk well enough to get by. But there is something missing in the connection between the mind and body that prevents our being able to process thoughts and experiences as we are meant to. Researchers have found some success with some children by having them do a number of crawling exercises that let them feel the incorrect organization of the muscles of their bodies. When they feel the correct way, they can choose to give up the incorrect way and adopt the way that feels better.

This, among other things, frees up a lot of emotional and intellectual energy that we didn't even know we were using.

This, of course, is a very general synopsis of the idea, but it seems that some kids have gotten a lot of improvement through it. It's similar to the Feldenkrais Method, which also causes deeper understanding of self.

Most of us are not living our own lives, but living according to the demands of our family and of society. This affects our physical tonus (the distribution of tension and relaxation throughout the muscles of the body) which affects our sense of self and our ways of thinking and acting.

But there is a naturally correct tonus for human beings and we can adopt that way if we can feel and recognize it and the difference between that natural way and what we are really doing.

In martial arts terms, I've said that this habitual and only semi-conscious way of acting is a big part of what makes it so hard to teach or learn martial arts.

That pattern of feelings in the whole body is a major part of what we call the "self image". We don't just have a "picture" of ourselves as we think that we are: we have a full range of muscular tensions that TELL us who we are. If we don't feel those tensions, we don't feel like ourselves.

For instance, when I was a teenager, I had a favorite writer. He was a really tall guy and he had a way of walking, standing and sitting that was pretty distinctive. I also had Kwai Chang Caine as a hero, among others. I had a bit of Kwai Chang Caine's walk, a bit of the writer's way of standing and sitting, and other influences mixed in. Over the years, I stood and walked like a karate man. I imitated Sonny Chiba for a long time. All these elements of habitual movement added up to a set of "feelings" in my body that reinforced by desire to be more like those famous people.

But those tensions were not the true tonus that was best for my body, and so it affected my mental processes. It took away some of the energy I could have used in different ways. It may be only a tiny amount of energy, but burn it 24/7/365 and it adds up to quite a lot.

Now, I agree with you that a lot of physical activity does not prevent or cure ADHD, but I do think that our schools' insistence on restricting movement and forcing concentration are counter-productive, especially in children whose body movements and feelings are not even their own.

Feldenkrais and related methods can help people feel what their bodies really need and that can do amazing things for the efficient and effective use of the mind.

I don't present this as a panacea, but I do think there are many more people who would benefit from Feldenkrais-style self-discovery than those who would not.

Best wishes and thanks for your comments.

[Chris Brown]

Mr. Orange,

Thank you for your clarifications and your expansions upon your post to which I made reference.

I will agree that an increasing lack of activity may indeed be a contributing factor. I would even go so far as to suggest that it may be an even greater contributor to the social problem of the over-use of the diagnosis as an excuse for many of the failings we have seen in our schools. If you keep kids too inactive for too long, they will naturally eventually succumb to just being kids and begin to get bored and restless, and all of the other things that kids just do. What disturbs me is the ever-increasing tendency to label all bored and restless children as ADD/ADHD. I really believe that mis- and over-diagnosis is at the heart of the social problem. Only a relatively small percentage of people who are originally pegged as ADD/ADHD actually are affected by the syndrome. There are other conditions which mimic many of the symptoms, and then there are kids who are just extemely active kids. There are also kids who are very smart, and very easily bored with their classes because of the current feel-good trends in education which mainstream many students who don't need to be mainstreamed just to raise everyone's "self-esteem." These products of the social promotion mentality, unfortunately, hold their peers back to the level of the new least common denominator: them. It is my personal belief that no one is served by this. The mainstreamed kids are given their advancements, and no one has a real clue what they have and have not learned. The remainder of the kids are left sitting and bored waiting for others who have not reached their level to catch up if they can (and thereby end up causing disturbances out of a desire to just do something interesting at all) when they could be moving along to more challenging material. Just my two cents, for what they are worth.

I find your observations about the natural tonus and Feldenkrais methodology most interesting. These expansions on your point of view will certainly result in more research on my part. While it is unfamiliar ground for me, there is a certain logic in your observations that warrants exploration, particularly as concerns your example about having adopted your walk and postures from an unusual role model, and the subsequent effects of that. Thank you for more pointedly bringing that to my attention. I can understand fully, because I spent my high school years participating in JROTC, and then spent several years in both college ROTC and on active duty in the Army. This experience resulted in a very definite posture and a very distinctive method of carrying myself and of walking. In my current martial arts studies, I find myself having to literally learn to walk all over again, in a manner which in many ways is completely counter to years of habit. Thank you for more detail.

And, again, please accept my apologies if I came across as rude or hostile. That was certainly not my intent. However, I am sometimes very passionate about things near and dear to me, and I may sound that way.

[IronMan]

Wow. I am a teaching assistant in a junior's class of Aikido and I have to say that everything that I have read is very applicable to the students I have who I have (very resently) been informed have ADHD.

I have noticed that these students all have problems focusing on multiple things, which should be obvious. But it's little things too. When I ask them to focus on posture and keeping the spin straight I find that sometimes they forget the technique altogether. I suppose that this shouldn't be all that strange except for that it seems so drastic to me that they cannot focus on any two things.

Like I said, I only teach a very small group of students. I was wonderin: is what seems like an extreme case of ADHD is much more common than I think it is?

[mews]

ADHS causes people to have trouble tracking multiple things at the same time.

I have had, however, students who weren't ADHD / ADD who were just very badly wired and who had trouble doing this also.

Some folks are just born with coordination that ranges from "not so great" to "really poor".

Others are, I am convinced, created.

I see no good coming out of the trend to eliminate play-time and/or gym classes in kindergardens and the early grades to "focus on academics." In the same way we are now paying for supersizing our food intake with huge increases in obesity, diabetes, and heart disease, I predict a huge bunch of children who can't move correctly. Why? Because they never did enough running around and playing to learn how to move correctly! Then their wiring gets set, and that's the end of that...

mew

[Rin]

This thread has been very useful. I work (in karate) with 14 year old that has ADHD and I get very frustrated as it seems we have to review everything all over again. She doesn't have much confidence, is rather insecure, and just wants everyone to dote on her and very much wants to be the center of attention. She is also a very polite girl with good manners, very sweet and likable. I decided I was throwing too much at her at once so we started all over again from the beginning and worked on just basic drills. This thread has been very helpful to me in helping her. She seems to really want to learn martial arts, but, as I said, it does seem as if I have to start all over again each and every class. By slowing it down and doing one thing at a time, she is making small improvments. Thanks to all for their good advice and helpful suggestions. I think she gets very frustrated too, because the other two girls I work with are picking things up quickly and advancing rapidly. I just keep telling her that it doesn't matter how long it takes to get it, the important thing is just that she gets it and I keep reassuring her that she will.

[MarkF]

I see no good coming out of the trend to eliminate play-time and/or gym classes in kindergardens and the early grades to "focus on academics." In the same way we are now paying for supersizing our food intake with huge increases in obesity, diabetes, and heart disease, I predict a huge bunch of children who can't move correctly. Why? Because they never did enough running around and playing to learn how to move correctly! Then their wiring gets set, and that's the end of that...



Kids need to keep moving, but the schools just do not play fairly. They take away the very thing a child thrives on (gym class) and limit physical activity to no more than 45 minutes a week. On top of that, they push sugar and cafeinated foods and drinks on our children but take a look at the parents. This is not something new as this is the second generation to be "super-sized" to death.


Mark

[icynorth]

My daughter has ADHD, and I also thought it was more a case of bad parenting leading to behavior issues. My kid was unattentive and destructive, she couldn't look you in the face and talk to you for more than 10 seconds. In school she had no friends and got "red cards" everyday. It broke my heart. We got her on Ritalin, but tried concerta, dexadrine (no good, like coming off of methadone) and a few others. Ritalin is cheap and works, since she got on it has been a 100% change, it so nice seeing a child that can focus. Only side effect is a slowing of appetite, until it wares off then snack crazy. It was used as a appeitite suppressent at one time.

That being said I teach 3 kids that are diagnosed. I have to be firm with them becuase they will walk all over you without rules to follow. You think they are not learning sometimes but I have had some suprises.
Both times I put them thru gradings they excelled, like better than 90% of the class. One of the kids even told me I forgot to test them on something, they were right. In the middle of a grading I had an 8 year old remind me to make them do something. Honestly at the time, this being my 1st ADHD child I was sort of fluffing it along not expecting much. But they do well.

Mind you the parents of some of these kids, thats another story.