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ScottUK
25th November 2004, 18:49
Hiya All,

Quick question - does anyone know the original ryu of each of the 12 ZNKR seitei iai kata? (Eg. #9 Soetezuki is from Hoki ryu etc).

Cheers,

Scott

A. Bakken
25th November 2004, 20:01
I think most of the kata have their origin in Muso Shinden Ryu / Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. Some kata may be "amalgams" (such as Morote-tsuki), and a few are taken from other systems (Soete-tsuki from Hoki ryu and Shiho-giri from Suio ryu). This is my understanding, anyway.

ulvulv
25th November 2004, 21:51
A link to a text by Wayne Muromoto, who frequent these boards. Maybe he has something to add?

http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue3/seite.html

Chidokan
25th November 2004, 21:59
someone had this as a list on their site... I'll try an dig it up for you. Problem is they have changed from the original waza to kata, and therefore lose the 'flavour' of the original version. Mae is a good example from MJER, very different in emphasis and movement.
The kata as a whole are now becoming the basis of a gendai ryu IMO, no doubt more kata will be added as time goes on.

socho
26th November 2004, 01:17
IMO, not really enough there for a ryu, that is why ZNKR guys that do seitei are expected to do koryu iai at some point. Although there is a lot going on in the individual forms, the expression of the forms is to 'committee' standards, and may not reflect the emphasis of the original style, or the overall context of the ryu they came from.

Dave

Brian Owens
26th November 2004, 04:45
Originally posted by Chidokan
...no doubt more kata will be added as time goes on.
Didn't the Seiteigata originally start with seven kata, and then expand to 10 in 1977?

Is it still 10, or is it 12 now?

A. Bakken
26th November 2004, 06:12
Originally posted by Brian Owens
Didn't the Seiteigata originally start with seven kata, and then expand to 10 in 1977?

According to the official ZNKR iaido manual, forms 8-10 were added in 1980.


Is it still 10, or is it 12 now?

12. Two more kata were added in 2000. From the same source as mentioned above:


At the turn of the century we decided to add two new forms to make it better and to let more people enjoy Iaido.

Brian Owens
26th November 2004, 08:20
Originally posted by A. Bakken
12. Two more kata were added in 2000. From the same source as mentioned above:
Thanks. I remembered hearing that two more were going to be added, but wasn't sure if it had happened.

mingshi
26th November 2004, 12:06
At the turn of the century we decided to add two new forms to make it better and to let more people enjoy Iaido.

???

My enjoyment of Iaido finally came when I was first taught koryu... :rolleyes:

A. Bakken
26th November 2004, 16:53
Originally posted by mingshi
???

My enjoyment of Iaido finally came when I was first taught koryu... :rolleyes:

Well, you know what they say:

All seitei and no koryu makes Jack a dull boy :smash:

Bill Gallant
26th November 2004, 17:09
My understanding was that 11 & 12 were still not official, and in fact last I heard they were thinking of taking them out.

As for the old Koryu vs Seitei debate?
If you're not getting any benefit from seitei, you're not doing it right. Practice is practice, full intent with both Koryu and Seitei.

ulvulv
26th November 2004, 17:23
sougiri and nukiuchi have been oficially for quite a while now, and is a popular choice for shinsa by japanese teachers. To bad that sougiri is hard to get right. Blush, blush..

ScottUK
26th November 2004, 19:18
Tim,

I thought the seitei mae came from MSR 'Shohatto'...?

ulvulv
26th November 2004, 19:39
as ipponme mjer is called mae, and ipponme msr is shohatto, it is reasonable to think that mae seitei is from mjer, not msr. mae in seitei is perhaps closer to mae mjer than shohatto in msr? As i understand it, it is usual to do kirioroshi in mae mjer without "pulling" the body closer to teki, like in seitei. After furikaburi, the left knee stays in place. Maybe there are differences in mjer with regards to this "body-seme" as well. :confused:

Bill Gallant
26th November 2004, 19:41
Originally posted by ScottUK
Tim,

I thought the seitei mae came from MSR 'Shohatto'...?

I've always thought that it also came from MJER mae. Then again it wasn't that long ago that MJER and MSR were one and the same, so really a moot point.

ScottUK
26th November 2004, 19:44
IMHO I thought MSR shohatto was much more like seitei mae than MJER mae is.

Taking hold of the koiguchi, the feet moving together during chiburi, the more direct furikaburi etc etc - none of these happen in seitei mae, much like MSR shohatto...

Bill Gallant
26th November 2004, 19:51
actually, does it really matter where mae came from? We do it one way in seitei and another way in koryu. As long as you know which one it is you're suppose to be doing...

ScottUK
26th November 2004, 20:06
No, it doesn't matter - I am just curious...

Brian Owens
26th November 2004, 22:04
Originally posted by ulvulv
as ipponme mjer is called mae, and ipponme msr is shohatto, it is reasonable to think that mae seitei is from mjer, not msr.
I think Seitei Mae is from Omori-ryu. Which ryuha have incorporated Omori-ryu into their curricula?

ulvulv
26th November 2004, 23:38
Originally posted by Brian Owens
I think Seitei Mae is from Omori-ryu. Which ryuha have incorporated Omori-ryu into their curricula?

mjer and msr. :p

Jack B
27th November 2004, 04:37
Originally posted by Bill Gallant
actually, does it really matter where mae came from? We do it one way in seitei and another way in koryu. As long as you know which one it is you're suppose to be doing...
I like Ipponme Mae-Giri from ZNIR Toho. It's just like MJER Mae, except you kiai on the final cut, don't scoot forward, do yoko chiburi, and step back after noto. It's really embarrassing when somebody does the wrong one.

Brian Owens
27th November 2004, 04:54
Originally posted by ulvulv
mjer and msr. :p
So there you go. Question answered.

Seitei Mae didn't come from MJER Ipponme or MSR Shohatto; or, you could say it came from both. Simpler just to say Omori Ryu.

Joel H.
27th November 2004, 18:25
Omari has some very notable diffrences

Brian Owens
27th November 2004, 23:54
Originally posted by Joel H.
Omari has some very notable diffrences
Omori (or Ohmori).

Yes, I think it would be safe to say that changes were made (and are being made) by the various committees in charge of such things between the Seitei methods and the Koryu counterparts from which they came, in the name of "standardization."

SLeclair
28th November 2004, 20:36
I'll see you "Ohmori" and raise you Oumori :).

Interestingly, while I thought Nuki Uchi in setei might have been derived from the waza of the same name from Omori, I found a web page stating that it is from a waza called Gyokkou from Mugai Ryu. Wonder why they renamed it...

---
Sebastien L.

Chidokan
28th November 2004, 21:17
isnt the toho from znir mae also mjer based?

Douglas Wylie
28th November 2004, 23:12
Originally posted by Chidokan
isnt the toho from znir mae also mjer based?

Yep.

This is the structure of ZNIR toho-

Ippon me mae giri (Muso Jikiden Eishin ryu)

Nihon me zengo giri (Mugai ryu)

Sanbon me kiri age (Shindo Munen ryu)

Yohon me shiho giri (Suio Ryu)

Gohon me kissaki gaeshi (Hoki ryu)

ulvulv
28th November 2004, 23:20
What is the function of this toho-kata in znir? Seitei was meant as a meeting ground for people from several styles in znkr for grading and taikai, and an iai-introduction for highgraded kendoka. Are there several styles inside znir, so the function is similar? Isnt znir purely mjer?

Douglas Wylie
29th November 2004, 02:00
Originally posted by ulvulv
Are there several styles inside znir,
Yes

Originally posted by ulvulv
Isnt znir purely mjer?
No

Brian Owens
29th November 2004, 08:21
Originally posted by SLeclair
...Interestingly, while I thought Nuki Uchi in setei might have been derived from the waza of the same name from Omori, I found a web page stating that it is from a waza called Gyokkou from Mugai Ryu. Wonder why they renamed it...
Probably because the names were chosen by a committee.

While 11 members were on the committee that recomended the kata to be included, only six were on the finalization committee (and none were from Mugai Ryu, as you'll see).

They were:

Otani Kazuo, President, Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei
Masaoka Kazumi, Hanshi 9th Dan, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu
Kamimoto Eiichi, Hanshi 9th Dan, Muso Shinden Ryu
Yamatsuta Jukichi, Hanshi 9th Dan, Muso Shinden Ryu
Danzaki Tomoaki, Hanshi 8th Dan, Muso Shinden Ryu
Sawayama Shuzo, Kyoshi 8th Dan, Hoki Ryu

Names for the kata were chosen that the committee members agreed would have meaning for the greatest majority of members practicing, and the names thus were not always the same as the name used by the ryu from which the particular kata originated.

Brian Owens
29th November 2004, 08:55
Originally posted by Brian Owens
...six were on the finalization committee...
BTW, that was the 1967 committee that drafted the original 7 kata.

In 1977 another committee selected 3 more kata which were made official in 1980.

Those members were:

Hashimoto Masatake, Hanshi 9th Dan, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu
Danzaki Tomoaki, Hanshi 9th Dan, Muso Shinden Ryu*
Kamimoto Eiichi, Hanshi 9th Dan, Muso Shinden Ryu*
Mitani Yoshisato, Hanshi 8th Dan, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu
Wada Hachiro, Hanshi 8th Dan, Muso Shinden Ryu
Sawayama Shuzo, Kyoshi 8th Dan, Hoki Ryu*
Tsumaki Seirin, Hanshi 8th Dan, Tamiya Ryu

* Sat on the 1967 committee

I do not have information on the members who selected the 2 most recent additions. If anyone can supply that (including name, grade, ryu, and the year they met if possible) I would be grateful.

Maro
29th November 2004, 10:07
In all the posts I 've read over time I haven't heard of Hoki Ryu.

I've heard of the others - is it still current?

Andy Watson
29th November 2004, 11:42
I had compiled an "Origins of Seitei" for our dojo and had reached the following conclusions up to a couple of years ago. I would love it if someone could fill in the blanks or correct what I have written. Note: for any MSR katas please also read MJER to circumvent any issues.

A. Bakken
29th November 2004, 17:17
Andy: Nice chart. I am almost certain that I have seen Shiho-giri attributed to Suio ryu, though I have no reference at hand right now.

Brian: That's interesting information. What/who are your sources?

Brian Owens
29th November 2004, 21:10
Originally posted by A. Bakken
Brian: That's interesting information. What/who are your sources? I have notes on various aspects of Iai from various sources, notably Shimabukuro Sensei's Flashing Steel and Warner's & Draeger's Japanese Swordsmanship. If I recall, the list above came from the latter.

Brian Owens
29th November 2004, 21:21
Originally posted by Maro
In all the posts I 've read over time I haven't heard of Hoki Ryu.

I've heard of the others - is it still current?
Yes, in fact Hoki Ryu is, I think, one of the "member" groups of the ZNIR.

There is a museum display on Hoki Ryu's founder, Katayama Hisayasu, in my town's sister city in Japan, Iwakuni.

Charles Mahan
29th November 2004, 22:49
It is indeed, and the only other ZNIR member ryu that is represented in the US other than MJER.

Brian Owens
30th November 2004, 05:24
Originally posted by Charles Mahan
It is indeed, and the only other ZNIR member ryu that is represented in the US other than MJER.
Aren't they (the US group's "headquarters") in the mid-west somewhere? Indiana or Ohio or something?

Maro
30th November 2004, 05:31
Cool - thanks.

I get a bit confused with all the Acronyms!

:D

Brian Owens
30th November 2004, 06:02
Originally posted by Maro
...I get a bit confused with all the Acronyms!
Oh, sorry. Here's a cheat sheet of common ones:

ZNKR Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei (All Japan Kendo Federation).
Main governing body of Kendo worldwide, also oversees many Iaido/Iaijutsu organizations. ZNKR established the Seiteigata.

ZNIR Zen Nihon Iaido Renmei (All Japan Iaido Federation). A seperate body that oversees several Iai ryuha. Has their own set of standards.

MJER Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. One of the largest Iai ryuha. There are several "branches" (Jikishin Kai, etc.), some calling themselves Iaido and some Iaijutsu, but all having descended from the Tanimura-ha. (If I'm wrong on the last I'm sure I'll get buried with corrections.)

MSR Muso Shinden Ryu (not to be confused with Shindo Muso Ryu/SMR). The other really big Iai organization, descended from the Shimomura-ha.

HTH.

Andy Watson
30th November 2004, 11:56
I think most of the info from my chart came from Wayne Muramoto's article.

Rennis
7th December 2004, 14:29
Originally posted by Brian Owens
Aren't they (the US group's "headquarters") in the mid-west somewhere? Indiana or Ohio or something?

The U.S. Hoki ryu group is based in Bloomington Indiana. Their website is here (http://www.indiana.edu/~iaido/)

Maro
8th December 2004, 00:18
Cool

I was at the NSW Kendo Championship on Saturday and there was a demonstration of Suio and Tamiya Ryu.

Interesting

hyaku
8th December 2004, 02:27
Originally posted by Brian Owens
Oh, sorry. Here's a cheat sheet of common ones:

ZNKR Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei (All Japan Kendo Federation).
Main governing body of Kendo worldwide, also oversees many Iaido/Iaijutsu organizations. ZNKR established the Seiteigata.

ZNIR Zen Nihon Iaido Renmei (All Japan Iaido Federation). A seperate body that oversees several Iai ryuha. Has their own set of standards.

MJER Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. One of the largest Iai ryuha. There are several "branches" (Jikishin Kai, etc.), some calling themselves Iaido and some Iaijutsu, but all having descended from the Tanimura-ha. (If I'm wrong on the last I'm sure I'll get buried with corrections.)

MSR Muso Shinden Ryu (not to be confused with Shindo Muso Ryu/SMR). The other really big Iai organization, descended from the Shimomura-ha.

HTH.

Ok I will start with digging your hole:D

You missed out a bit there are two Zen I Ren. The Zen Nihon Iaido Renmei and Zenkoku Iaido Renmei.

Brian Owens
8th December 2004, 05:39
Originally posted by hyaku
...You missed out a bit there are two Zen I Ren. The Zen Nihon Iaido Renmei and Zenkoku Iaido Renmei.

Okay, we'll add ZIR to my list.

Chidokan
9th December 2004, 21:57
Hyaku, what about the other one you are in, the old budo one I forget the name of???

hyaku
9th December 2004, 22:21
Originally posted by Chidokan
Hyaku, what about the other one you are in, the old budo one I forget the name of???


Hello Tim

Kyu Yanagawa Han Kobudo Shinkokai? That was a local society (Shinkokai) for arts around Yanagawa. Its still up and running in a minor way. They are in turn members of a Batto Renmei (Todo Renmei).