Chakra Meditation

[Nakyra]

Why not?

I have been practicing meditation for the better half of a century now (Makes seven years sound longer ;) ) And recently I have started practicing Chakra Meditation and thought some of you might be interested.

I use this Technique of meditation as method to increase my energy flow (Hara, Inner force)
I am very sure that learning to control and mold this inner energy would be very constructive for most area's of life, helping with stress, health, concentration/focus, increasing the boundries of human capabality, and unifying body and mind.

If there is anybody interested in me posting my findings and experiances with this method of meditation, please let me know and I will post as soon as I can - Thank-you for your time.

[Rogier]

....

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Nakyra
I use this Technique of meditation as method to increase my energy flow (Hara, Inner force)
Demonstrate this claim under proper observing conditions, and you will win $1 million. (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html)

[Rogier]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Demonstrate this claim under proper observing conditions, and you will win $1 million. (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html)

:D that's the same thing I wrote... but then I removed it...

He is writing in the mind and spirit part of the forum, what else can you expect?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Rogier
He is writing in the mind and spirit part of the forum, what else can you expect?
Rational thinking; is that too much to ask?

[Goro]

Nakyra, one of my teachers has taught me that in order to fully awaken the chakras, one must vocalize specific mantras related to each center. In fact, we can asseverate that the seven churches mentioned in Revelation of Saint John are the seven chakras.

Here is an interesting read about developing the awakening of the centers.

http://www.gnosis-usa.com/mantras.html

Peace, :)

[Kimpatsu]

The guy writing for the link Jason supplied is full of pseudoscientific gobbledeygook. He should try out for the $1 million...

[Rogier]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Rational thinking; is that too much to ask?

you know as well as I do, that it is too much to ask for lots of people...

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Rogier
you know as well as I do, that it is too much to ask for lots of people...
Ah, but as an eternal optimist, Rogier, I live in hope...

[Nakyra]

You will probably always find my posts somewhat esoteric in nature, as I practice a magick based religion.
I have trained my mind for many years and have recently realized that my body plays an equal importance in the acquisition of growth.
Therefore I hope to unify my body and mind as to mix martial arts with my specific methods of utilizing Chi - allowing for optimal performance and results. With a lot of work, trial and error and perhaps some luck, I will be able to mold these two lifestiles into something new for myself.

At the moment it's still a concept, however, with enough research and a hulluva lot of effort, I think I just might achieve something worthwhile for myself.

Drugs, Cigarette's, alcahol - are just some of the things I want to get away from, yet I find it painfully difficult to drop my habits, I am positive I can if I have a lifelong goal, I can chase!

I am extremely focused and will not fail - we shall see what the future holds.

[Nakyra]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Rational thinking; is that too much to ask?

Rationality is nothing more than a boundry - I have seen things which I have no answers for, I have met people who have achieved what I believed to be impossible. Even though my eyes refused to believe what I saw it didn't change what happened.
After experiancing that, I cannot term things I do as rational or irrational - only ever, posible or less posible...

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Nakyra
Rationality is nothing more than a boundry - I have seen things which I have no answers for, I have met people who have achieved what I believed to be impossible. Even though my eyes refused to believe what I saw it didn't change what happened.
After experiancing that, I cannot term things I do as rational or irrational - only ever, posible or less posible...
What you really mean is that just because YOU can't explain something doesn't mean it can'ty be explained.
Are are you so arrogant as to think that anything you can't explain is, de facto, inexplicable?
All I can say is, put up or shut up. Your claims are lunacy to my mind, but if you can prove me wrong, there's $1 million (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html) on offer.
Now, how can you turn that down?

[Lee Marsh]

Originally posted by Nakyra
You will probably always find my posts somewhat esoteric in nature, as I practice a magick based religion.
I have trained my mind for many years and have recently realized that my body plays an equal importance in the acquisition of growth.
Therefore I hope to unify my body and mind as to mix martial arts with my specific methods of utilizing Chi - allowing for optimal performance and results. With a lot of work, trial and error and perhaps some luck, I will be able to mold these two lifestiles into something new for myself.

At the moment it's still a concept, however, with enough research and a hulluva lot of effort, I think I just might achieve something worthwhile for myself.

Drugs, Cigarette's, alcahol - are just some of the things I want to get away from, yet I find it painfully difficult to drop my habits, I am positive I can if I have a lifelong goal, I can chase!

I am extremely focused and will not fail - we shall see what the future holds.

Sounds like you have the makings of a self-made Soke with your own style and everything. WOW! Magic,everything! And only 20 years old! Do you also want to get away from bad grammar and poor spelling?

[Rogier]

oh.... my..... god.....

Nakyra,

you have made just the right post to let Tony get a foothold... run... duck... dodge... Stop posting, don't give him the satisfaction of shattering your fantasy world.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Rogier
oh.... my..... god.....

Nakyra,

you have made just the right post to let Tony get a foothold... run... duck... dodge... Stop posting, don't give him the satisfaction of shattering your fantasy world.
I shall yield this batleground to you, Rogier.
:cool:

[Goro]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
The guy writing for the link Jason supplied is full of pseudoscientific gobbledeygook. He should try out for the $1 million...


He'd win.

Tony I know you are a die hard 'show me' type of person and thats' cool, to each her/his own and all that.

However, the man in question you don't even know, therefore, how can you insinuate any disparagement on his behalf? A little immature neh?

People who are dedicated to the highest, most sacred teachings are not interested in having their name in lights, only in the Great Work and their dedication to the Innermost.

Merry X-mas,

[Lee Marsh]

Sensei bequeathed me his net. It is time for someone to use it.:D

[bgb]

Originally posted by Nakyra
Why not?

I have been practicing meditation for the better half of a century now (Makes seven years sound longer ;) )

Welcome, Nakyra.

This is a cute line but please be aware that century = 100 years. I believe you were looking for decade .

Then again, maybe you meant it exactly as you wrote it.

Take care,
Barb Bloom

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Goro
He'd win.
Really? So chakras exist, do they?

Originally posted by Goro
Tony I know you are a die hard 'show me' type of person and thats' cool, to each her/his own and all that.

However, the man in question you don't even know, therefore, how can you insinuate any disparagement on his behalf? A little immature neh?
Not at all. The man is claiming super powers, akin to being able to turn invisible or leap tall buildings in a single bound. It's akin to claiming he has evidence of Santa Claus. An adult who believes in Santa is disturbed, wouldn't you say?

Originally posted by Goro
People who are dedicated to the highest, most sacred teachings are not interested in having their name in lights, only in the Great Work and their dedication to the Innermost.
Yeah, that's an excuse I often here when people are confronted with the challenge. Put up or shut up. If you don't want the money, donate it to charity after you win it. You would also be advancing science dramatically by revealing a whole new pysics paradigm of which we know nothing.

[Lee Marsh]

I've always wondered why all these wackos who claim supernatural powers, or other such BS don't submit to double blind studies and prove what they claim. Could it be because there is ABSOLUTELY NO SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR ANY OF YOUR CLAIMS AND YOU ARE IDIOTS. Excuse me...I got excited.:cool:

[CEB]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
.... An adult who believes in Santa is disturbed, wouldn't you say?
....
Hey now.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by CEB
Hey now.
Well, don't you agree?

[CEB]

Father Christmas is cool.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by CEB
Father Christmas is cool.
Well, he's not likely to be hot, given where he lives, now is he?

[valoczy]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Really? So chakras exist, do they?

Sure they do. Considering that chakra is a (iirc) Sanskrit word meaning simply 'life'...does life exist, or not? :)


Not at all. The man is claiming super powers, akin to being able to turn invisible or leap tall buildings in a single bound. It's akin to claiming he has evidence of Santa Claus. An adult who believes in Santa is disturbed, wouldn't you say?

I'm the Grandson of God, since my dad is Jesus. Or at least he looks almost exactly like Jesus in the paintings... ;)


Yeah, that's an excuse I often here when people are confronted with the challenge. Put up or shut up. If you don't want the money, donate it to charity after you win it. You would also be advancing science dramatically by revealing a whole new pysics paradigm of which we know nothing.

To be fair, I use that argument sometimes. But then, in those cases I know that I'm right and would be able to prove it, but simply can't be arsed to do.

[valoczy]

Originally posted by Lee Marsh
I've always wondered why all these wackos who claim supernatural powers, or other such BS don't submit to double blind studies and prove what they claim. Could it be because there is ABSOLUTELY NO SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR ANY OF YOUR CLAIMS AND YOU ARE IDIOTS. Excuse me...I got excited.:cool:

Science can be just as much rubbish as metaphysic...academia will only present findings which don't hurt their own established position.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by valoczy
Sure they do. Considering that chakra is a (iirc) Sanskrit word meaning simply 'life'...does life exist, or not? :)
If he's arguing that he can manipulate "life", that in and of itself is a paranormal claim and can be tested immediately.
If, however, you assess his claims in the meaning he intended (that there are paranormal focal points within the body that can be manipulated to affect health), then the original challenge still stands.
Besides, if "chakra" means "life" and you can affect "life" by thought alone, that, too, is a paranormal claim.
Please show me that you can do this.

Originally posted by valoczy
I'm the Grandson of God, since my dad is Jesus. Or at least he looks almost exactly like Jesus in the paintings... ;)
Please show me the DNA evidence for such a claim.
Personally, I think you are the spawn of the devil...

Originally posted by valoczy
To be fair, I use that argument sometimes. But then, in those cases I know that I'm right and would be able to prove it, but simply can't be arsed to do.
Stop being lazy; prove all your claims.
It's what I do, ya feckless bastard.

[valoczy]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
If he's arguing that he can manipulate "life", that in and of itself is a paranormal claim and can be tested immediately.
If, however, you assess his claims in the meaning he intended (that there are paranormal focal points within the body that can be manipulated to affect health), then the original challenge still stands.
Besides, if "chakra" means "life" and you can affect "life" by thought alone, that, too, is a paranormal claim.
Please show me that you can do this.

I never said I can. I simply answered your question: do chakras exist? by giving the definition of Chakra.

As for the manipulation of life, it's not all that paranormal. Shoot someone in the head, he's dead, you've manipulated life. Reproduce, you've created a new life, you've manipulated life.


Please show me the DNA evidence for such a claim.
Personally, I think you are the spawn of the devil...

DNA evidence? Bah. You gotta *believe*, man!

(apropos, if you've not noticed before, I'm being sarcastic. That's one of my biggest shortcomings, constant sarcasm...)


Stop being lazy; prove all your claims.
It's what I do, ya feckless bastard.

I tried, for a long time. But there are so many idiots who refuse to see plain proof, that it's not worth the time and effort. If someone insists on being ignorant, well, there's no medicine for that short of a rope or a bullet.

To those who are willing to think, and to consider that they may be wrong, I happily prove my statements. To those who are the opposite, I don't waste my time talking at them further.

(edit was insertion of / in closing "b" inside [ and ] )

[Lee Marsh]

Originally posted by valoczy
Science can be just as much rubbish as metaphysic...academia will only present findings which don't hurt their own established position.

Demonstrable, experimental science is not rubbish. Hypotheses can either be tested or not. If one is not willing to present testable evidence for one's claim, then he can hardly be taken seriously. Academia does not control cause and effect.:rolleyes:

[valoczy]

Originally posted by Lee Marsh
Demonstrable, experimental science is not rubbish. Hypotheses can either be tested or not. If one is not willing to present testable evidence for one's claim, then he can hardly be taken seriously. Academia does not control cause and effect.:rolleyes:

When honest, I agree with you. But there's been plenty of cases of tampering with results, that it can be questionable.

And yes, I agree that if one refuses to present evidence, then it is rubbish. But evidence can also be tampered with. And, further, the audience must be receptive to the evidence.

A clarification: I do not believe his claims either. I'm similar to Kimpatsu - I seldom believe even what I see myself, the first time I see it. I want to see it twice.

[Lee Marsh]

Agreed, but tenacious science will expose the tampering, usually. Actually, on the strictest level, all science is a posteriori...the only place we find a priori truths is in mathematics. So, like Bertrand Russell, we wait to see if the sun comes up in the a.m.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by valoczy
I never said I can. I simply answered your question: do chakras exist? by giving the definition of Chakra.
Is that your definition of "chakra"?
It's unique...

Originally posted by valoczy
As for the manipulation of life, it's not all that paranormal. Shoot someone in the head, he's dead, you've manipulated life. Reproduce, you've created a new life, you've manipulated life.
Do chakras exist? Yes or no?

Originally posted by valoczy
DNA evidence? Bah. You gotta *believe*, man!
Is that your definition of "chakra"?
Believe in DNA? Oh, absolutely. Why not?

Originally posted by valoczy
(apropos, if you've not noticed before, I'm being sarcastic. That's one of my biggest shortcomings, constant sarcasm...)
I'm a sarcastic bastard, too, but what's that got to do with anything?

Originally posted by valoczy
I tried, for a long time. But there are so many idiots who refuse to see plain proof, that it's not worth the time and effort. If someone insists on being ignorant, well, there's no medicine for that short of a rope or a bullet.
This I don't understand.
Show me all you claims under proper observing conditions, and you can win $1 million.
Anything else just makes you a windbag.

Originally posted by valoczy
To those who are willing to think, and to consider that they may be wrong, I happily prove my statements. To those who are the opposite, I don't waste my time talking at them further.
Fabulous.
Prove them to me.

[valoczy]

Okay, Kimpatsu, you've succeeded in confusing me. What have I claimed here?

1. I said chakra means simply 'life'. I did not once say life could be manipulated by thought alone, unless you take that definition as being thought causes the hand to pull the trigger that ends (thus manipulates) life. And my definition of 'chakra' as life, is not unique. The word itself means 'life'.

2. The comment about sarcasm was referring to my previous comment about me being the grandson of God, since my dad looks like Jesus as seen in paintings. That was not a serious comment.

3. Once again, I have not made any claims here. But certainly, if I can win a million bucks for proving one or another of my linguistic theories, please tell me how. I could use the money.

[valoczy]

Originally posted by Lee Marsh
Agreed, but tenacious science will expose the tampering, usually.

Yes. *If* the audience is receptive, and willing to be proven wrong, if the evidence proves them wrong. The findings of tenacious science have often been suppressed over the course of history...



Actually, on the strictest level, all science is a posteriori...the only place we find a priori truths is in mathematics. So, like Bertrand Russell, we wait to see if the sun comes up in the a.m.

Yes...which is why mathematics is imo the only pure science, the only science which cannot be tainted by politics or personal interest. 1=1, simple as that.

[valoczy]

One more thing:


Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Originally posted by valoczy
I tried, for a long time. But there are so many idiots who refuse to see plain proof, that it's not worth the time and effort. If someone insists on being ignorant, well, there's no medicine for that short of a rope or a bullet.
This I don't understand.
Show me all you claims under proper observing conditions, and you can win $1 million.
Anything else just makes you a windbag.


This was in reference to you telling me to prove all of my statements. What this means, is that I do not waste time in trying to prove something I can prove to be fact to those who do not wish to have their own position disproved. (i.e., those who wish to remain ignorant of the truth).

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by valoczy
Okay, Kimpatsu, you've succeeded in confusing me. What have I claimed here?
1. I said chakra means simply 'life'. I did not once say life could be manipulated by thought alone, unless you take that definition as being thought causes the hand to pull the trigger that ends (thus manipulates) life. And my definition of 'chakra' as life, is not unique. The word itself means 'life'.
So you accept that there are no such things as "chakra points"?

Originally posted by valoczy
2. The comment about sarcasm was referring to my previous comment about me being the grandson of God, since my dad looks like Jesus as seen in paintings. That was not a serious comment.
Neither was mine, but you non-Anglo-Saxons clearly lack a sense of humour... ;)

Originally posted by valoczy
3. Once again, I have not made any claims here. But certainly, if I can win a million bucks for proving one or another of my linguistic theories, please tell me how. I could use the money.
Linguistic?
Paranormal.
Check out this site (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html) for details.

[Lee Marsh]

Chakra are simply "folklore" methods of explaining neurological phenomena which can and have been demonstrated by scientifically controlled and measured bio-feedback techniques. Geez, everyone is looking for some kind of alchemy or gnosis or something.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Lee Marsh
Chakra are simply "folklore" methods of explaining neurological phenomena which can and have been demonstrated by scientifically controlled and measured bio-feedback techniques. Geez, everyone is looking for some kind of alchemy or gnosis or something.
Chakra are so-called "energy points" on the body that affect health. They have no relation to modern understandings of anatomy, and hence are paranormal. Proving they exist would win the $1 million.

[valoczy]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
So you accept that there are no such things as "chakra points"?

Of course I accept that there aren't such things.



Neither was mine, but you non-Anglo-Saxons clearly lack a sense of humour... ;)

No, our Eastern humour is just too deep for westerners... ;)



Linguistic?
Paranormal.
Check out this site (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html) for details.
[/b][/quote]

Well I've not got any paranormal theories, but I'll check it out anyways...

[Goro]

The eminent Japanese researcher, Motoyama has contributed a chapter in Meek (1977:147ff) on his investigations of psychic healing, and his several inventions therewith connected. He has witnessed Phillipine surgery, and checked out that tumors and other tissue apparently taken from the patient's body did actually come from them (p. 147). He has proved (p. 149) that the healing power can be transmitted through lead shielding, hence is not physical, but "higher dimensional energy (p. 150)." Regarding psychic incisions, he notes that they are two to three times as wide as those made by a knife, and look like those made by a laser. He also hypothesizes that prana is stored in the chakras, and in healers can be ejected at will from the finger tips or the toes.

Meek (1977:41ff) in a discussion of the Brazilian psychic healer, Arigo, quotes Puharich (ibid.) who gives ten characteristics of a complete healer:

1) ability to diagnosis in presence or absence of patient,
2) to heal by laying on of hands,
3) to heal himself,
4) to use molecular medicine (pharmaceuticals),
5) to produce anesthesia by non-chemical means,
6) to perform instant surgery,
7) to violate supposed laws of antisepsis,
8) to perform action at a distance,
9) to possess a "guide" or spirit helper, and
10) to regenerate tissue.
Watson (1974:209-24) devotes a chapter to psychic surgery.
(page 233)

Some quotes:


(p. 220) I spent several days working with J. Sison ... and saw her perform over two hundred operations, about 85% of which involved materialization phenomena.
(p.220) I have seen Juan Blance of Pasig make real incisions in the bodies of his patients, but without a knife and from a distance.

(p.223) The most obvious and dramatic aspect of the Luzon healing process is the manifestation of living tissue.

(p. 213) (referring to Arigo, the Brazilian healer) He performed thousands of elaborate operations with table knives and scissors in totally unsterile conditions... Summing up their study of Arigo, Puharich said: 'He does it. I can't tell you how'.




:p How do ya like them apples?:D Pretty sweet neh?



The final conclusion is that we know very little, and yet it is astonishing that we know so much, and still more astonishing that so little knowledge can give us so much power.
- Walter Grierson

Regards,

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Goro
The eminent Japanese researcher, Motoyama has contributed a chapter in Meek (1977:147ff) on his investigations of psychic healing, and his several inventions therewith connected. He has witnessed Phillipine surgery, and checked out that tumors and other tissue apparently taken from the patient's body did actually come from them (p. 147). He has proved (p. 149) that the healing power can be transmitted through lead shielding, hence is not physical, but "higher dimensional energy (p. 150)." Regarding psychic incisions, he notes that they are two to three times as wide as those made by a knife, and look like those made by a laser. He also hypothesizes that prana is stored in the chakras, and in healers can be ejected at will from the finger tips or the toes. This is absolute rubbish. Phillipine "psychic healers" have been debunked time and again as scam artists.
When performing his "tests", did Mtoyama take a stage magician with him? Further, the term "higher dimensional energy" is meaningless. Energy has a specific meaning in physics; its use in new-age nonsense is just plain daft.
But he really should have used a magician.

[Goro]

Thats what I like about you Kehoe, your unwillingness to bend. :D

Even if there were proof staring you in the face you'd research your accounts based on what can merely be derived from anothers theories as opposed to the direct experience one can have if they adhere sincerely to certain practices.

peace,

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Goro
Thats what I like about you Kehoe, your unwillingness to bend. :D

Even if there were proof staring you in the face you'd research your accounts based on what can merely be derived from anothers theories as opposed to the direct experience one can have if they adhere sincerely to certain practices.

Not true (BTW, I think you mean "evidence"). If you show me evidence, I will look. Motoyama's research, however, was flawed. If he were to conduct it properly and got the same results, I'd be fascinated. If he did conduct it properly, however (like he should have done the first time), he would have got very different results.
Presumably, you also believe in the god-men of India?

[Goro]

You asked for it.

Surely you're going to say that the conclusion of 20+ yrs. of '
research' into this area of intelligence was as they put it 'mildly effective'.

But the fact is they would'nt of put that much time and resources into a 'pipe dream'.

[Goro]

Heres the link,

http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/CIA-InitiatedRV.html#anchor255098

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Goro
You asked for it.
Surely you're going to say that the conclusion of 20+ yrs. of '' into this area of intelligence was as they put it 'mildly effective'.
But the fact is they would'nt of put that much time and resources into a 'pipe dream'.
Yes, they would. Just like the US government spent 10 years and $20 million researching remote viewing.
Do you honestly think the people who make these decisions are smart?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Goro
Heres the link,

http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/CIA-InitiatedRV.html#anchor255098
Oh, not Targ and Puthoff?
You can read about thier idiocies here. (http://www.randi.org/jr/112301.html) In fact, check out all the commentaries on the site; it will be very educational for you.

[Lee Marsh]

Originally posted by Goro
Thats what I like about you Kehoe, your unwillingness to bend. :D

Even if there were proof staring you in the face you'd research your accounts based on what can merely be derived from anothers theories as opposed to the direct experience one can have if they adhere sincerely to certain practices.

peace,

Mr. Kehoe is not unwilling to "bend." He is unwilling to accept claims or hypotheses that are not subjected to rigorous, corroborated scientific testing by disinterested parties. This is especially true when such claims are used to defraud the public. Now, it is one thing to say that you saw a flying saucer and tell that to all your friends. They will merely think you are a nut. It is quite another to claim that and charge people admission to see the little green man you caught, or to claim that the vision gave you healing powers and charge people for their use. I like Mr. Kehoe's stubborn insistence upon proving, scientifically, any such paranormal claims. Carl Sagan, regarding the search for extra-terrestrial intelligence, said that he, of all people, wanted to find such life. But, he was particularly sceptical and stubborn because, he said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

[Nakyra]

Maybe I deserved that, maybe…
It’s obvious that my lifestyle is severely different from most people, and I never expect people to listen openly or let alone agree with me.
However, I always expect people to make a fool of me, and it really doesn’t bother me or deter me from my goals, however radical they may seem.

Maybe I shouldn’t have been so hasty to write a post of that nature in
e-budo, but I seriously thought that someone here would at least have some constructive comments to make on the subject…

[Kimpatsu]

Tyrone, here is a genuinely constructive comment: Test your supposed chakras using a double-blind, scientific protocol. There are plenty of people here, and living near to you, who are willing to help you design said protocol.
But until you do, your claims are no more than wishful thinking.
Regards,

[Nakyra]

*sigh*

I never claimed to have any mystical powers or strange abilities,
I wanted to mix the natural energy every person possesses with focus and concentration into a martial art - I mean come on, How do you think those damn buddhists stand on paper, or how they generate copious amounts of heat through their hands?
And yes THAT has been documented and proven.

As for the million dollar challenge - I don't know why anybody hasn't claimed it, especially if there are people out there who can perform minor tasks using only their mind, perhaps after decades of training themselves to do something like that, their perceptions change and that million dollar reward doesn't even enter their mind? Truth is I don't know - do you?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Nakyra
I never claimed to have any mystical powers or strange abilities,
I wanted to mix the natural energy every person possesses with focus and concentration into a martial art - I mean come on, How do you think those damn buddhists stand on paper, or how they generate copious amounts of heat through their hands?
And yes THAT has been documented and proven.
Such parlour tricks are no different from what stage magicians like David Copperfield pull off. So, no special pwoers there.
And you have misused the word "energy", which in physics has a very specific meaning.

Originally posted by Nakyra
As for the million dollar challenge - I don't know why anybody hasn't claimed it, especially if there are people out there who can perform minor tasks using only their mind, perhaps after decades of training themselves to do something like that, their perceptions change and that million dollar reward doesn't even enter their mind? Truth is I don't know - do you?
Yes: it's because nothing they do is paranormal in the slightest. Claimants fall into two categories: swindlers and the self-deluded.
In your first two sentences above, you contradict yourself. You say in the first sentence that you never claimed to have special powers, and then in the second sentence you claim exactly that: "natural energy" (sic). If you can edmonstrate this "natural energy" claim, you qualify for the $1 million.
Do it and feed some orphans. Or admit that you have no such abilities whatsoever.
(Neither is likely to happen.) :rolleyes:

[Mushin Ronin]

Maybe these so called "paranormal" manefestaions haven't been proven because if someone did step forward to claim the $1 million, and they actually could do something phenomenal, governments would snatch them away for their own use. If you had telekenetic ability...would you want the general public to know about it? If so, why? What do you think your life would be like? If not...again...why?


Believe and think what you will. There will always be "Nay Sayers"


Happy Holidays

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Mushin Ronin
Maybe these so called "paranormal" manefestaions haven't been proven because if someone did step forward to claim the $1 million, and they actually could do something phenomenal, governments would snatch them away for their own use. If you had telekenetic ability...would you want the general public to know about it? If so, why? What do you think your life would be like? If not...again...why?
What are you, a conspiracy nut? Do you really think psychic powers could be kept quiet if they really existed?
FYI, many people have applied for the $1 million, and have all failed. Once proper observing conditions are applied, the cause of their claimed ability turns out to be far more mundane.

Originally posted by Mushin Ronin
Believe and think what you will. There will always be "Nay Sayers"
I beleive what the evidence says. My personal feelings don't come into it. If you are arguing that psychic powers must exist because life would be so much less fun without them, that indicates a rather child-like inability to distinguish between what is true and what you would like to be true.
And what, exactly, do you mean by "Nay sayer"? I deny that the Moon is made of green cheese. Is that a negative thing to do?

[Mushin Ronin]

I'm not arguing anything. If I had psychic powers I wouldn't be stupid enough to display them in public. As far as me being a conspiracy theory nut....hmmm no Believe what you want. Why would it matter what I think? Though, the lack of proof of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist....course that works in reverse too,

Do you think there is a God? If you do. How is that different from the paranormal? Can you prove his/her/it's existence for me please?

As far as keeping things quiet...umm yes...I do believe it can be done. I have a Top Secret security clearance....so I know all about what the gov can do with secrets. Did you know that there was a Steath Fighter aircraft prior to the ordeal in Panama with Noriega? One of the most expensive military secrets.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Mushin Ronin
I'm not arguing anything. If I had psychic powers I wouldn't be stupid enough to display them in public. As far as me being a conspiracy theory nut....hmmm no Believe what you want. Why would it matter what I think? Though, the lack of proof of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist....course that works in reverse too,

Do you think there is a God? If you do. How is that different from the paranormal? Can you prove his/her/it's existence for me please?

As far as keeping things quiet...umm yes...I do believe it can be done. I have a Top Secret security clearance....so I know all about what the gov can do with secrets. Did you know that there was a Steath Fighter aircraft prior to the ordeal in Panama with Noriega? One of the most expensive military secrets.
No, I don't believe in god. I don't believe in anything paranormal. You claim to have the paranormal ability, it's up to you to prove it. If chakras are real, then everything we think we know about the universe and about human anatomy is wrong. Demonstrate your claims, and not only will you win $1 million, you'll also win a Nobel prize.
As to secrecy, the Watergate conspiracy involved less than 12 people, and they couldn't even that secret. Psychic powers could never be kept under wraps if they really existed; evidence of their existence would inevitably come to light. How secret was the Panamanian stealth fighter? Not very; you know about it, and now everyone who reads this thread will, too.
Finally, if you don't take the test, it can only mean one of two things.
1. You know that you'll fail, and as the test is scrupulously fair, that must mean that you know your claims are bogus.
2. You're really selfish; even if you don't want the money personally, win it and donate it to charity.

[Mushin Ronin]

LOL...I never said I had any psychic or paranormal ability....so I would indeed fail any test.


Watergate...bah...bunch of bumbling idiots really..but I'll concede to that one. As for the Stealth Fighter...ummm....it's been public knowledge since 1986...or do you not watch CNN? It had been around for 10 years prior to that. No one knew a thing about it till the Panamanian crisis. Anyway...they were a huge player in the Gulf War....so I didn't reveal anything.....but nice try.

And I don't think I would be selfish if I had psychic ability and didn't get the money. I would however try to teach it to those I thought were mature enough to use such a thing in a manner to benifit man...not in some adverse way...otherwise I would keep it secret.

Happy Holidays

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Mushin Ronin
LOL...I never said I had any psychic or paranormal ability....so I would indeed fail any test.
So now you're saying that you CAN'T "manipulate your chakras through meditation"? Are you really withdrawing your comment at the start of this thread?

Originally posted by Mushin Ronin
Watergate...bah...bunch of bumbling idiots really..but I'll concede to that one. As for the Stealth Fighter...ummm....it's been public knowledge since 1986...or do you not watch CNN? It had been around for 10 years prior to that. No one knew a thing about it till the Panamanian crisis. Anyway...they were a huge player in the Gulf War....so I didn't reveal anything.....but nice try.
The stealth fighter was known since at least the mid-1970s, before it ever got to fly.
Besides, you are citing single classified incidents, whereas govenment suppression of psychic phenomena would be ongoing, analagous to hiding the fact that the entire Masai Mara people don't exist. That really would be an impossible feat.

Originally posted by Mushin Ronin
And I don't think I would be selfish if I had psychic ability and didn't get the money. I would however try to teach it to those I thought were mature enough to use such a thing in a manner to benifit man...not in some adverse way...otherwise I would keep it secret.
In other words, you would deny the money to the orphans? And you don't think that's selfish? Now, there's righteous hypocrisy for you.
Further, what makes you think you could "teach" psychic abilities? What if such abilities were predicated upon certain genetic factors, like race or eye colour?
I would still like to know whether you are indeed withdrawing your original comment about chakras, though.

[Mushin Ronin]

LOL...you confuse me with someone else sir. I am not the originator of this topic. I never did say I could manipulate my chakras. I just commented that just because we haven't seen proof of something doesn't mean it doesn't or can't exist.

As for the F117 Stealth Fighter...you are wrong. I have been in the Air Force for over 19 years...so I believe I am the subject matter expert here on military aircraft....not you.

The government doesn't cover up things like that...to include but not limited to existence of UFO's...they just deny any knowledge of it.

The existence of Area 51 was denied for many years...till the Clinton administation revised The Freedom of Information Act which made alot of before classified information open to the general publice....cept those things that were considered vital to National Security. The idea of National Security is very broad...so please try to refrain on commenting what you feel to be a national security matter and not what the government feels to be one...I assure you they aren't the same thing.

However...it seems you like to argue, just for arguing sake. It might be a way of how you justify your existence. So I am not going to comment further on this topic....perhaps no more aruging will come of this..so maybe then you don't really exist?....LOL That's meant as a joke btw.

Again.....Happy Holidays.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Mushin Ronin
LOL...you confuse me with someone else sir. I am not the originator of this topic. I never did say I could manipulate my chakras. I just commented that just because we haven't seen proof of something doesn't mean it doesn't or can't exist.
So you think it's possible that Santa Claus exists?

Originally posted by Mushin Ronin
As for the F117 Stealth Fighter...you are wrong. I have been in the Air Force for over 19 years...so I believe I am the subject matter expert here on military aircraft....not you.
The government doesn't cover up things like that...to include but not limited to existence of UFO's...they just deny any knowledge of it.
And denial is tantamount to an admission. Earlier you were claiming a cover-up by the government concerning psychics; now you're saying there's no cover-up, just denial, but if the truth comes out, you let the chips fall where they may.
BTW, I read about the stealth fighter as early as 1974/75 in ordinary magazines. So, no cover-up there.

Originally posted by Mushin Ronin
The existence of Area 51 was denied for many years...till the Clinton administation revised The Freedom of Information Act which made alot of before classified information open to the general publice....cept those things that were considered vital to National Security. The idea of National Security is very broad...so please try to refrain on commenting what you feel to be a national security matter and not what the government feels to be one...I assure you they aren't the same thing.
But everyone knew that Area 51 was government land, hence the nut jobs thinking its a repository for a crashed alien spaceship and EBEs.
Now, to clarify: Are you claiming that the government has evidence of psychic powers, and is locking up psychics to keep the secret?

Originally posted by Mushin Ronin
However...it seems you like to argue, just for arguing sake.
Funny; I was thinking the same thing about you. Either that, or you are incapable of expressing yourself clearly.

Originally posted by Mushin Ronin
It might be a way of how you justify your existence.
And how do you justify your existence? Through your bad spelling and grammar?

Originally posted by Mushin Ronin
So I am not going to comment further on this topic....perhaps no more aruging will come of this..so maybe then you don't really exist?....LOL That's meant as a joke btw.
Don't give up your day job. :rolleyes:

[Goro]

Originally posted by Mushin Ronin
..As for the F117 Stealth Fighter...you are wrong. I have been in the Air Force for over 19 years...so I believe I am the subject matter expert here on military aircraft....not you.

The government doesn't cover up things like that...to include but not limited to existence of UFO's...they just deny any knowledge of it. .


;) Project Blue Book Special report #14...

[Lee Marsh]

Tony, Why are you and Winter arguing with a kool-aid drinker? Might as well argue with a monkey.

[CEB]

I like Kool-Aid but I have to sweeten mine with Splenda now.

[Lee Marsh]

We used to mix vodka and grape koolaid...nasty!

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Goro
;) Project Blue Book Special report #14...
That was discredited years ago.
And again, it's public knowledge, so no successful cover-up there...

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Lee Marsh
We used to mix vodka and grape koolaid...nasty!
I'm not sure if that's the zenith or the nadir of bad taste, Lee... :D

[CEB]

Originally posted by Lee Marsh
We used to mix vodka and grape koolaid...nasty!
Purple cows!

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by CEB
Purple cows!
If you're seeing purple cows, Ed, how many of those nasty concoctions did you drink?!
:D

[Mushin Ronin]

Originally posted by Lee Marsh
We used to mix vodka and grape koolaid...nasty!

Isn't that jungle juice? I had a whole bucket of that spill in the back of my car some umpteen years ago. It was hard to get the smell out.

Kool Aid is ok if you can't aford Crangrape...much better for mixing.....:)

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Mushin Ronin
Isn't that jungle juice? I had a whole bucket of that spill in the back of my car some umpteen years ago. It was hard to get the smell out.
Oh, god, I know the feeling! When I was a little kid (and, yes, we did have Kool Aid back then, too!), I spilled a nearly-full bottle on the back seat of my dad's car, and he never did get the smell out totally, until the day he sold the car. Eucchh!

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Mushin Ronin
Did you know that there was a Steath Fighter aircraft prior to the ordeal in Panama with Noriega?

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
...The stealth fighter was known since at least the mid-1970s, before it ever got to fly.

Originally posted by Mushin Ronin
...As for the F117 Stealth Fighter...you are wrong. I have been in the Air Force for over 19 years...so I believe I am the subject matter expert here on military aircraft....not you....
This is almost too funny for words.

Although the specifics of the F-117 weren't widely known until after Panama, there were rumours of it long before that; not to mention the Pave Blue Project, etc.

Revel even had a reasonably accurate model of the plane out before Panama, and Air & Space, Air Power, Popular Science, etc. had articles on it.

Mushin Ronin's expertise on military aircraft doesn't seem to match his claims.

BTW, in case you're wondering, I was in the Strategic Air Command in the '70s.

[Kimpatsu]

Hey, Brian, you were in the real, honest-to-gosh SAC?
That's truly impressive; they only take something like 1-in-8 applicants, right?

[elder999]

The first F-117A was delivered in 1982, and the last delivery was in the summer of 1990. The F-117A production decision was made in 1978 with a contract awarded to Lockheed Advanced Development Projects, the "Skunk Works," in Burbank, Calif. The first flight was in 1981, only 31 months after the full-scale development decision. Lockheed-Martin delivered 59 stealth fighters to the Air Force between August 1982 and July 1990. Five additional test aircraft belong to the company.

The stealth fighter emerged from the classified world while stationed at Tonapah Airfield with an announcement by the Pentagon in November 1988 and was first shown publicly at Nellis in April 1990.

The F-117A first saw action in December 1989 during Operation Just Cause in Panama.

The Revelle model came out in 1980, coincindentally enough.....

[elder999]

Originally posted by Mushin Ronin
LOL...you confuse me with someone else sir. I am not the The existence of Area 51 was denied for many years...till the Clinton administation revised The Freedom of Information Act which made alot of before classified information open to the general publice....cept those things that were considered vital to National Security.

Actually, the revealing of Area 51 came about because of former employees becoming whistleblowers about it's illegal toxic-waste dump, not because of any revision of the F.O.I.A.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by elder999
Actually, the revealing of Area 51 came about because of former employees becoming whistleblowers about it's illegal toxic-waste dump, not because of any revision of the F.O.I.A.
See? They must be hiding aliens!

[Mushin Ronin]

Originally posted by Brian Owens
This is almost too funny for words.

Although the specifics of the F-117 weren't widely known until after Panama, there were rumours of it long before that; not to mention the Pave Blue Project, etc.

Revel even had a reasonably accurate model of the plane out before Panama, and Air & Space, Air Power, Popular Science, etc. had articles on it.

Mushin Ronin's expertise on military aircraft doesn't seem to match his claims.

BTW, in case you're wondering, I was in the Strategic Air Command in the '70s.


I was in SAC too....I was assigned to the 351st Organizational Missile Maintenance Squadron at Whiteman AFB MO. I worked on nukes for 9 years. The everyday Joe doesn't know much about military aircraft. Heck...I work on E-3B/C AWACS now and most of the time when someone asks me what I do....even though they have lived around here for years...they have no idea what an AWACS is or what one looks like. I always reply.."Haven't you noticed the big planes flying around here with the black with white stripe rotating dome on the back of it. Most of them have no clue. If you want to know more about military aircraft....you can look them up on the internet.

BTW....Whiteman AFB is the home of the B-2 Spirit Stealth Bomber. They were cool to watch flying around...sort of like the Batplane IMOP. Can't leave those suckers out in the sun or inclement weather I am told...the paint on them is so sensetive it peals and falls off. They are constantly in depot.

Eluding to something like the F117's existence is not the same thing as admitting to it. There's been all sorts of pictures and such on UFO's but has anyone you know seen one? Can they say for a fact it exists. Could anyone prove for a fact before the F117 officially was revealed, that it existed? Not officially I don't think. There are alot of people that believe in UFO's...can the prove they exist? There is evidence for both sides...but until a government comes out and says...look what we have...the claims for UFO's are on claims.

Area 51....everyone knew something was there as far as some sort of military installation, but the government didn't admit to it.

There was a documentary the other day on the Roswell incident..I didn't watch it...it was on the Sci Fi channel. Anyone catch it?

[elder999]

Originally posted by Mushin Ronin
Can they say for a fact it exists. Could anyone prove for a fact before the F117 officially was revealed, that it existed? Not officially I don't think.

Really? Isn't this (http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=104) an official USAF webpage?
:rolleyes:

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by elder999
Really? Isn't this (http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=104) an official USAF webpage?
:rolleyes:
The USAF doesn't have a stealth fighter, Aaron.
That's a crashed alien spaceship they've been trying to get to fly. :D

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Hey, Brian, you were in the real, honest-to-gosh SAC?
That's truly impressive; they only take something like 1-in-8 applicants, right?
Not that impressive. I wasn't a pilot, I was a Security Policeman (812X0 - Law Enforcement Specialist (cop) not 811X0 - Security Specialist (security guard), using the AFSCs of that era).

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by elder999
Really? Isn't this (http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=104) an official USAF webpage?
:rolleyes:
He asked if any could prove its existence prior to the Air Force's revelations post Panama. Of course there are official reports about it now.

However the original post was to the effect that no one knew about it prior to the official release, and that this was an example of the government's ability to keep secrets. I think it is clear that it wasn't as big a secret as Mushin Ronin was trying to suggest.

[elder999]

Originally posted by Brian Owens
He asked if any could prove its existence prior to the Air Force's revelations post Panama. Of course there are official reports about it now.


That's not at all what he said.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by elder999
That's not at all what he said.
Reading half the posts on this forum, Aaron, requires a form of decoding, worse than the Enigma code...

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by elder999
That's not at all what he said.
True; but it is what he wrote. :p

[Cufaol]

I was thaught that a practishioner of Martial Arts, should strive towards balance...In everything. So renouncing meditation and related techniques as not-rational, is a very Euro/American-centered way of thinking. (remember Kant, Hegel,...) This kind of arrogant complacency, isn't really a mature attitude. Isn't it?

[Brian Owens]

I was thaught that a practishioner of Martial Arts, should strive towards balance...In everything. So renouncing meditation and related techniques as not-rational, is a very Euro/American-centered way of thinking. (remember Kant, Hegel,...) This kind of arrogant complacency, isn't really a mature attitude. Isn't it?
Euro/American way of thinking?

Didn't Bruce Lee say we should reject the nonsense and use only what is useful?

Renouncing fraud and psuedo-science is rational.

A mature person will look around himself, gather information, make judgements, and go forth with reason.
An immature person accepts everything he is told with child-like acceptance.

I don't think anyone here rejects meditation on the whole (this thread is about so-called chakra meditation, not Zen meditation, Transcendental Meditation, etc.), but many of us require some reality to be present. Blind acceptance without questioning in the face of a lack of evidence is something that only cult leaders should desire.

[Cufaol]

quote: Renouncing fraud and psuedo-science is rational.

A mature person will look around himself, gather information, make judgements, and go forth with reason.
An immature person accepts everything he is told with child-like acceptance.




I've never supported blind following or acceptance. I'm only saying that we shouldn't be to rash about deeming something impossible or obsolete. besides, the first rule of meditation is the following: always stay with your feet on the ground and never lose touch with reality. That's also way these techniques should be reserved to those who are somewhat mentally stable.

[Harry Cook]

With reference to the exitence or otherwise of chakras. In Yoga A Scientific Evaluation Kavoor T. Behanan points out that ‘Pranayama comprises different types of breathing. ‘Prana’ means ‘breath’ and ‘ayama’ ‘pause’; hence the compound ‘pranayama’ literally means a cessation or pause in the movement of breath. While in the ealier writings, especially in Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras, the word is free from all mystical and symbolic interpretations, in the hands of later writers it became equivalent to some psychic force or cosmic element.’
The prana is usually associated with six or more ‘centres of psychic energy’ or ‘chakras’ said to be located along the spine. By mental control the initiate is said to be able to move the prana [or ‘kundalini’, serpent power] up the spine to produce both a profound sense of spiritual liberation and somewhat incidentally ‘siddhis’ or occult powers. The author Arthur Avalon [Sir John Woodroffe] in his classic study of Tantric Yoga originally published in 1919 warns however that ‘physiology does not know the Cakras as they exist in themselves - that is, as centres of consciousness - and of the activity of Suksma-Prana-vayu or subtle vital force...those who appeal to physiology are likely to return non-suited.’
It is important to note that according to Arthur Avalon the chakras are simply ‘centres of consciousness’, and like the ‘subtle vital force’ they are associated with they have no corporeal existence. This simple fact is often either ignored or misunderstood by those who write or teach as if these centres or ‘vital energy’ actually existed, and are not simply mental constructs. One Indian writer Gopi Krishna, a man who has devoted his life to the study of yoga points out that ‘To a scientific mind, acquainted with the anatomy of the human body, the diagrams and descriptions [of the chakras etc.] would...strike one as the products of a brain which, to say the least, has lost touch with actuality and lives in a fantastic realm of dreams. It would dismiss the whole subject as entirely unscientific and irrational, the fanciful creation of deluded anchorites or of unscrupulous charlatans to deceive the credulous.’

Harry Cook

[Trevor Johnson]

One might also consider them a result of a discarded paradigm. If you WANT to talk science, you might consider these perfectly scientific results, similar to the various European theories about "phlogiston" and its flow being responsible for combustion of metals, way back when. You collect data and formulate an hypothesis that fits the data set that you have. People didn't really know the scientific method back then, so for them I submit that taking the sensations that they felt when they did thus-and-such and making a theory about them is perfectly scientific.

Of course, what happened to phlogiston should also happen to chakras. That is, a paradigm having been found that explains, in this case via biofeedback, the provable phenomena in the set, and much else besides, the chakra paradigm should be discarded if it cannot match that paradigm. That is what happens in science. If you find a set of data that do not fit into the current paradigm, and the data is reproducible under the best scrutiny, then you start having a period of existential crisis until you find a new paradigm that fits all of the data that you have, and adopt it. It's a little more complex than that, but you'll have to read the history of science people to understand it. (Don't read philosophy of science, they've rather overextended the work done in T.S. Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. )

I submit that the data show that the chakra theory cannot beat the current biofeedback and neural paradigms, given the proven data out there. Anecdotal data cannot count.

(In case y'all hadn't guessed, I'm a biologist, and history of science and paradigmatic evolution are a matter of casual reality for me. Honestly, many lay-people can't really discuss science, simply because many of the terms which scientists use tend to get misunderstood and or twisted by the public and by various demagogues who want the glory, if not the actual fact, of scientific backing for their theories. Blasted nuisance media, misappropriating my vocabulary... ;) )

[Cufaol]

May I ask you why, if all this is indeed bogus as you have pointed out in an extremely wise manner, why almost all the grandmasters stress the importance of hara, and correct use of breath & ch'i? One exemple would be Soke Tanemura, who said the following: "Some people consider the spiritual as less important than the technical or physical aspects of martial arts. This is not true. Ho/Po (from NINPO) is just as important as (Taijutsu) Jutsu.

I do not claim that all the crap about meditation and ch'i is true, all I'm saying is that a lot of facts seem to point towards the existence of a form of energy, previously unknown to Western Science. Saying that it is just my mind that's playing tricks on me is pretty much prouving what I'm saying. One controls this life-energy by concentrating/focusing your mind. I'm not lobbying for Dragonball Z-like fiction. I'm demanding respect for the teachings of other cultures. We do NOT own the thruth, and any individual or association who has the complacency of claiming that Western so-called civilization has the only correct methods and anwsers, 'd better take some lessons in open-mindedness.

My sincere greetings,

Christophe.

PS: If you still question this theory, why don't you contact Soke tanemura and confront hilm with your doubts? I'm sure he'll be pleased to hear that the people of the West are still just as narrow minded as the people of the East. For do not underestimate the short-sightedness of the Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

[Trevor Johnson]

May I ask you why, if all this is indeed bogus as you have pointed out in an extremely wise manner, why almost all the grandmasters stress the importance of hara, and correct use of breath & ch'i? One exemple would be Soke Tanemura, who said the following: "Some people consider the spiritual as less important than the technical or physical aspects of martial arts. This is not true. Ho/Po (from NINPO) is just as important as (Taijutsu) Jutsu.



I think chi functions best as a metaphor. If you "move with the flow of chi," you're generally moving in a certain way, with a certain feeling. If you have that feeling in your movement, you move correctly. I've always found that if I picture something in my head and then attempt it, I then do it more smoothly. I think that these descriptins of chi may be meant as training tools, to give the mind a picture of how it should move and connect the image in the mind with the desired feeling in the body.

Many of the demonstrations of chi that I've seen work out just as well as basic principles of leverage and body mechanics. If you ever read E.J. Harrison's book The Fighting Spirit of Japan, you will read about one demonstration of chi in there that was impressive. A senior jujutsu practitioner sat in seiza and was unmovable by his students pulling on a horizontal axis. The problem is, I've seen that feat duplicated by my brother's then 6-month old sheltie puppy (may he rest in peace), who resisted my brother's attempts to teach him to heel by sitting back on his haunches and refusing to move, despite my brother's pulling. Unless an under-ten-pound ball of fuzz can master chi, I prefer a physical explanation, even though my knowledge of physical dynamics isn't good enough to derive one, I'd need a bona fide engineer, which I'm not. I am a biologist, the son of a neurogeneticist and an aspiring neurologist myself. Which is why I say the above with some degree of certainty.

As for the throwing of chi balls and such, I've seen several such attempts debunked, I think the links may be on bad or baffling budo. Now, while people like this (http://members.fortunecity.com/kisociety/undergroundsociety/index.html) may be giving the rest of the chi people a bad name, it smells a little funny to me.

[Timothy.G.B.]

Wow, what a thread!

To say that anything not provable by the experimental method in the biological sciences has fairly flimsy legs to stand on. Show me, through the experimental method, that math exists!

Scientists have been poo-pooing that which cannot be seen or measured for centuries, but their beloved math is just such a thing. Show me a cup of math, an ounce of math, a particle of math!! Math only exists in the minds of people and therefore can never be proven to exist by the scientific method.

Here's one to wrestle with. If you are someone who is certain that the only real things are those than can be proved via the experimental method, how can you account for your subjective experience of certainty that what you say is in fact true? And, further, who are you? Anything you can claim as your own is not you. So who are you? If you can answer the question Who am I then you will have it.

My three cents in the hat!

Best regards,
Tim

[CEB]

....
Here's one to wrestle with. If you are someone who is certain that the only real things are those than can be proved via the experimental method, how can you account for your subjective experience of certainty that what you say is in fact true? And, further, who are you? Anything you can claim as your own is not you. So who are you?
...



res cogitan, I am a thinking thing.

cogito ergo sum , I think therefore I am. Even if I doubt I exist I can not doubt the fact that I doubt regardless of what a great deciever may bring forth. :)

[Trevor Johnson]

Wow, what a thread!

To say that anything not provable by the experimental method in the biological sciences has fairly flimsy legs to stand on. Show me, through the experimental method, that math exists!

Scientists have been poo-pooing that which cannot be seen or measured for centuries, but their beloved math is just such a thing. Show me a cup of math, an ounce of math, a particle of math!! Math only exists in the minds of people and therefore can never be proven to exist by the scientific method.

Here's one to wrestle with. If you are someone who is certain that the only real things are those than can be proved via the experimental method, how can you account for your subjective experience of certainty that what you say is in fact true? And, further, who are you? Anything you can claim as your own is not you. So who are you? If you can answer the question Who am I then you will have it.

My three cents in the hat!

Best regards,
Tim

My own view on that is, if you want to preach that chi is an actual energy, then you have to submit it to the tests that will prove that it functions as energy. If you want to think of it as a philosophical idea, a way of thinking, then you don't. As far as math, I'm not a mathematician. I frankly can't stand math. I'm a biologist. I deal with that which is physically provable about the body and its workings. You want to deal with philosophy of math, talk to a mathematician. I haven't got the background to properly debate it. I don't deal with the far-out theories of math, I deal with that which is usable by me, which ain't that complex. (I have a feeling that a physicist or mathematician could squish your argument, but I guess that the discussion would prove so arduous to the rest of us that the moderators would step on it to preserve the rest of our sanities. )

I think that the basis of the arguments would probably start with the fact that math is extremely useful at describing facets of the universe that we can't prove exist, until some physicists decide to look for them experimentally. They often find them.

Now, I'm willing to very politely debate the existence of things that cannot be measured or felt, whose influence in the world is completely undetectable. I treat those things, however, as matters of faith, and I'm not going to take umbrage if someone disagrees with me unless their faith involves murder, mass murder, or the like. If you insist that it's detectable and functional in the world, however, then you'd better be ready to provide some proof.

[Timothy.G.B.]

Trevor:

You said that you hate math and you are not a mathematician. So, I am not sure on what basis you feel that a mathematician would "squish" my arguement. At any rate, your comments still do not addresse my point which is the fact that no one doubts that math exists, yet no one can show me math in the sensoriphysical worldspace. It is not there to be found. It only exists in the individual subjective realm of the mind.

This does not negate any truth about what can be found in the sensorphysical world, it just points out that there are limits to what can be "seen" by the experimental method. As a biologist, I don't doubt that without math you would be very limited in terms of how you analyze your data.

Getting back to meditation and martial arts. The only thing meditation will do, IMO, is give you a clearer mind. A clear mind can't make up for good techique, good fighting theory or hard training. It can enhance it, when all things are equal, but I have to agree that all the metaphysical stuff in martial arts seems like a big load of "hooey" to me. Haven't met or seen anyone yet who stands up to empirical scrutiny as has been mentioned here by others.

Best,
Tim

[Brian Owens]

Tim, yours is a specious analogy.

Mathmatics is a concept, not a physicality. So of course it cannot be measured.

But those who believe in the existance of chakras claim that they are centers of energy. Energy can be measured; it is not merely a mental construct.

This is not to say that chakras don't exist; after all, many forms of energy have been discovered that -- until the discovery -- had not been known.

But your analogy is ludicrous. Keep trying.

[Timothy.G.B.]

Brian:

If you were trying to convey a tone of condescension in your last post, then you were successful. I'm sorry you felt it was necessary.

I was taking exception to the notion that anything that is not measurable is not REAL. Some of the discussion on this thread seems to head in that direction, (i.e. if I can't see it, touch it, feel it, smell it, hear it or taste, then it isn't real) and it is simply an argument with no legs.

I have already posted my opinion on the "existence" of chakra centers, as they relate to martial arts.

Regards,
Tim

[Trevor Johnson]

Trevor:

You said that you hate math and you are not a mathematician. So, I am not sure on what basis you feel that a mathematician would "squish" my arguement. At any rate, your comments still do not addresse my point which is the fact that no one doubts that math exists, yet no one can show me math in the sensoriphysical worldspace. It is not there to be found. It only exists in the individual subjective realm of the mind.

This does not negate any truth about what can be found in the sensorphysical world, it just points out that there are limits to what can be "seen" by the experimental method. As a biologist, I don't doubt that without math you would be very limited in terms of how you analyze your data.

Nup, you're mistaking me for a biophysicist or biochemist. They get up to math when they have to, as do biostatisticians. I'm a molecular and cellular biologist. We don't work with much at all. What we can see and feel, and maybe a little statistics...

As for the mathematician comment, mathematics is a model, so of course it's a concept. However, it's a concept with realworld applications. Some of them we don't have the equipment to test yet, or hasn't been related to anything we can measure... YET. However, much of it has. In a way, it's similar to any scientific paradigm. (look at my previous statement about T.S. Kuhn.) You have a paradigm that explains something about the world. When a better one comes along, one that explains the old stuff satisfactorily and provides a better way of exploring the holes in the old one,(such as the fact that chi-related stuff tends to be handily debunked as soon as a legitimate test is posed, as in a proper blinded study) you replace the old paradigm, once you are satisfied that the new one is better. (There are ALWAYS those who resist major paradigm shifts. We call those dead ends, and they tend to lose funding as the field moves on, and eventually die a lonely death.) Chi, as it is conceived nowadays, is an old paradigm. It used to be conceived differently, as Harry Cook pointed out a little while ago.

It is important to note that according to Arthur Avalon the chakras are simply ‘centres of consciousness’, and like the ‘subtle vital force’ they are associated with they have no corporeal existence. This simple fact is often either ignored or misunderstood by those who write or teach as if these centres or ‘vital energy’ actually existed, and are not simply mental constructs. (emphasis is mine)


Getting back to meditation and martial arts. The only thing meditation will do, IMO, is give you a clearer mind. A clear mind can't make up for good techique, good fighting theory or hard training. It can enhance it, when all things are equal, but I have to agree that all the metaphysical stuff in martial arts seems like a big load of "hooey" to me. Haven't met or seen anyone yet who stands up to empirical scrutiny as has been mentioned here by others.

Best,
Tim

Which is exactly my point. Chi has never been satisfactorily proven to exist in the physical world. Which means that its non-physical existance is a matter of belief. The mental in martial arts isn't hooey, so much. That's well-proven to be effective, but it's more a neurological conditioning thing, a mental construct, if you will. The metaphysical, well, if you can prove it, I'll believe it, but you'd better get some decent controls for the experiment, and a good methodology, AND a decent sample size. If I can do it with my mice, you can do it with your chi.

However, chi is NOT like mathematics. Mathematics is a concept that has extensions into the "real world." These extensions end up in physics, chemistry, statistics, etc. These arts use mathematics as a predictive function, that is, given what we have observed in this system, how can we relate these observations in such a way at to predict what will happen if we change the variables of the system? Very often mathematics is able to predict changes in the system that we cannot test, as we lack the proper equipment or the sensitivity to detect those changes. Once we generate the necessary equipment or sensitivity, it usually proves correct. When it doesn't, it's generally because of a deficit in our observations, not the math. Try that with chi, and it falls short. No extensions into the "real world" that don't keep getting debunked/squished.

[Cufaol]

Okay, the existence of chi hasn't been proven yet. But indeed the same goes for electricity (until it's exictence was proven ofcourse.). But I have a question for the scientists amongst us: Why do you guys think that, unless you can measure it somehow, it doesn't exist? Do you really think that Descartes and Newton have given you the instrument to solve everything? Are you people afraid of the unknown? Does western science give you Wisdom? Is it arrogance? If I hadn't known that it was fear, I'd call it arrogance...

Step out of that world of self-complacent, callous, narrow-mindedness and try to feel for once. The brain isn't everything. We have a heart and feelings too. Is it so hard to trust your feelings? Suppose that I'm wrong. (which is very likely, granted.) Would I have lost anything?
I pitty those who think that they own all the wisdom...Lives as empty shells, a snakes old live...

Kind regards, C.

[Trevor Johnson]

Okay, the existence of chi hasn't been proven yet. But indeed the same goes for electricity (until it's exictence was proven ofcourse.). But I have a question for the scientists amongst us: Why do you guys think that, unless you can measure it somehow, it doesn't exist? Do you really think that Descartes and Newton have given you the instrument to solve everything? Are you people afraid of the unknown? Does western science give you Wisdom? Is it arrogance? If I hadn't known that it was fear, I'd call it arrogance...

Step out of that world of self-complacent, callous, narrow-mindedness and try to feel for once. The brain isn't everything. We have a heart and feelings too. Is it so hard to trust your feelings? Suppose that I'm wrong. (which is very likely, granted.) Would I have lost anything?
I pitty those who think that they own all the wisdom...Lives as empty shells, a snakes old live...

Kind regards, C.

And THAT falls under the category of Faith. See my earlier posts.

[Timothy.G.B.]

Hi Trevor:

Ken Wilber provides an interesting critique on what he calls the misinterpretation of Kuhn's term "paradigm". I won't bother excerpting a huge amount of stuff from the book but "The Marriage of Sense and Soul" is a serious look at the philosophy of science as it relates to all "good science", which Wilber says consists of 3 strands, common to all valid ways of knowing.

1) An injunction - (i.e., if you want to know this...do this) it is an exemplar a method of doing and it is not just a way of thinking about the world.

2) Apprehension of data - when you follow the injunction there should be an apprehension of the data that is supposed to be disclosed by the injunction.

3) Validation of data - this piece can only be achieved by others who have taken up the injunction (i.e. experiment etc.); it is a validation of the apprehended data by a community of the knowledgeable.

His thesis is that no one can criticize data that is disclosed using a given injunction, unless he/she is willing to take up that specific injunction. If a meditator is claiming superhuman powers following meditative practices, then the proper injunction to test that would fall in the realm of the physical sciences. That is due to the fact that the person has already tried out his/her superhuman powers in the physical world and found they really can stop a speeding bullet with their abs :). Others should be able to test out his/her hypothesis (i.e. not that if we are mediatators we will have bullet proof abs, but that if we shoot a bullet at his/her abs it too will be stopped by the steely muscles). As we know, most of the time there are no takers for this kind of validation.

However, if a meditator is claiming that we are all part of a higher power and that our dualistic thought is mere illusion, and that all is spirit, then the only valid critiques of this data can come from others who have taken up the proper injunction, namely meditate for 20 years. If one hasn't performed the injunction, then they are not part of a community of the knowledgeable and any critiques become cross- "paradigmatic" (i.e. using different injunctions) and untenable.

Best regards,
Tim

[Trevor Johnson]

However, if a meditator is claiming that we are all part of a higher power and that our dualistic thought is mere illusion, and that all is spirit, then the only valid critiques of this data can come from others who have taken up the proper injunction, namely meditate for 20 years. If one hasn't performed the injunction, then they are not part of a community of the knowledgeable and any critiques become cross- "paradigmatic" (i.e. using different injunctions) and untenable.

Best regards,
Tim

Right. That's... slightly different from what I'm trying to say, but not that far off. Most of what I'm taking umbrage at is the assertion that this thing called chi creates physical manifestations. Since they should be detectable by science, given the gross manifestations that are supposedly possible, they should be grossly detectable, that is, we should have no trouble verifying them.

As for those who meditate for 20 years and don't get this idea, though, did they just meditate wrong?

If you're postulating things which are detectable as feelings and perception only by those who've undergone certain rituals and rites, the problem is this: Have those certain rituals and rites changed them in such a way that they can feel/perceive this, or have those rituals and rites given them the ability to stimulate themselves in such a way that they feel/perceive this? Is this real, or is this just them conditioning themselves to make it real in their own personal nervous system? That's why I like equipment, it's more dependable. (Besides, everyone feels better with a machine that goes "Bing!" :D ) This is where I believe faith comes in. You believe or you don't believe, fine, that's up to you. Bottom line, though, if you think that you can produce some physical manifestations, however, you better be willing to subject it to physical tests.

Besides which, the pope, who's one of the enlightened, by the relics and rituals of the Catholic Church, and who presumably has spent lots of time praying/meditating, has a very different view of the world than the above mentioned people who meditate for 20 years. Is this a result of the difference in rituals? If so, which is right? And if they're both convinced they're right, are you generating/finding a universe of your own with your rituals? If so, how does it intersect with the rest of ours? I see a few problems here...

[Timothy.G.B.]

Hi Trevor:

You make some great points. WRT the Pope and others, there is very much a developmental piece to the idea of spiritual growth. According to most accounts, the non-dual level of consciousness is the "final" level which is also a realization that all is spirit and there is no division. One can't presume that holding titular authority in an organized religion equates with the highest levels of spiritual development.

Any change in the internal subjective experience should also have a physiological correlate in the body that is detectable. The point you are arguing is causation - do neurohormones "cause" things like feelings or do the feelings "cause" the release of neurohormones. Wilber's position is that they are "tetraenacted" meaning arise simultaneously in the world. Any subjective experience will have a physiological correlate in the body that should be detectable.

There is a lot of interesting stuff on this check out the Mind and Life Institute, where a group of hard-core neuroscientists have teamed up with the Dalai Lama and a group of buddhist monks to track the physiology of "higher" states of consiousness.

http://www.mindandlife.com/

Best regards,
Tim

[Trevor Johnson]

Any change in the internal subjective experience should also have a physiological correlate in the body that is detectable. The point you are arguing is causation - do neurohormones "cause" things like feelings or do the feelings "cause" the release of neurohormones. Wilber's position is that they are "tetraenacted" meaning arise simultaneously in the world. Any subjective experience will have a physiological correlate in the body that should be detectable.


Right. The only problem is which comes first. And the problem with that is, while you can measure the neural changes, I'm not sure that you can positively prove what causes them. That's the issue. If you use something as a marker for something else, you have to link the two first, and I'm not sure that the work can be done.

So much that the brain does is hidden from the person whose brain it is. The brain does tremendous amounts of work doing things like fixing optical illusions before we notice them, image enhancement, pattern matching, etc, etc, etc. I submit that the brain's perfectly capable of fooling us, and often does.