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Brad Burklund
16th December 2004, 22:32
Hello,

I am relatively new to this forum and my martial arts background does not include weapons training. I was looking for a Jodo school or training in the "jo."

So I am uncertain if this can be had in and of itself or only within a particular martial arts style that incorporates this weapon within training.

I am located in Torrance, CA and would appreciate any help. I have looked through the local phone listings and tried to locate schools on the internet with little success.

Thanks,

Brad Burklund

Brian Owens
17th December 2004, 13:08
Originally posted by Brad Burklund
...I was looking for a Jodo school or training in the "jo."

So I am uncertain if this can be had in and of itself or only within a particular martial arts style that incorporates this weapon within training.

I am located in Torrance, CA and would appreciate any help.

You may have a hard time finding a school that only teaches bo or jo.

Probably the most well known jo style is Shindo Muso Ryu (AKA Shinto Muso Ryu). The jo is the primary focus of SMR, but they also work with kenjutsu quite a bit (can't learn jo v. ken waza without it), as well as other arts within their curriculum. I don't know if there are any qualified SMR sensei in your area, but a Web search for "Shindo Muso Ryu" and "Shinto Muso Ryu" might yield some leads.

Another possibility would be to practice Aikido at a school that includes Aikijo (not all do, and not all that do have the same emphasis or approach). Aikijo, like Aikido itself, is very circular and flowing, with lots of blending and entering movements. It's different in many ways from Koryu Jojutsu and Jodo, but is a worthwhile study in its own right.

Lastly, you might check with Kendo groups in your area to see if there is an instructor who can lead you in the practice of ZNKR Seitei Jodo.

HTH and good luck in your search.

Brad Burklund
17th December 2004, 17:14
Brian,

Thanks for the information. I have been mostly in karate with a little judo, Bjj, and Aikido thrown into the mix. However, have not encountered the Jo in any of these places.

I guess this leads to another question that you might be able to answer. I have been practicing martial arts for over 20 years, but without weapons training. Does weapon training "corrupt" or otherwise change (beneficial or not) the manner in which you would throw hand-to-hand techniques. This may not necessarily present a problem if I had learned a martial art based on weapons that included hand-to-hand, but I have basically zero training in weapons. I guess the reverse could be true...previouse nonweapon training interfering with weapons traingin.

Just curious.

Thanks,

Brad Burklund

Tom Christy
17th December 2004, 17:49
Mr. Burklund,

If you are looking for weapons skills to add to your unarmed skill set, I would suggest that studying SMR jo might not be the best thing for you. The art is primarily concerned with the use of a staff against a swordsman, which is hardly a situation that you will find yourself in these days. If you are looking to study a classical weapons art, jojutsu is a great thing to find. If you are seeking self defense skills, I would suggest that looking elsewhere might be advised. Certainly you could use the skills you learn in SMR jo (or Okinawan bojutsu, etc.) with a little modification, but there are systems out there that are more oriented towards current self defense skills. A great place to start might be finding a school teaching Filipino martial arts (escrima, arnis, kali, etc.). Given that you are in Torrance, you should find plenty of great people to work with.

Hope this helps,

Tom Christy

Brad Burklund
17th December 2004, 18:39
Mr. Christy,

Thanks for the information. I am sort of half way on the defense utility side of things. Though, originally, I was on the "learn how to fight" camp when I started as a teenager....I think most people change after awhile about martial arts. I have seen efficacy of technique in martial artists and in those without training. Have owned guns....and have never been in a fight in my adult life.

Training in and of itself brings its own pleasures to me. So, I basically had my eye on Jodo since I have seen others use the Jo (Aiki people) and the circular movement was impressive. However, I don't want to disepense with all realistic defensive possiblities with the Jo despite it being and archaic weapon (with good transferable utitlity to say...a broomstick). I would say I am more of a budoka...in it for the long hall.

Regards,

Brad Burklund

Tom Christy
17th December 2004, 18:51
Mr. Burklund,

No worries. Just wasn't sure from your post where you were headed and wanted to give you some thoughts to ponder.

Mr. Owens already covered the avenues that I would suggest. Good luck in your search!

Tom Christy

Brad Burklund
17th December 2004, 19:08
Mr. Christy,

Thank you...and I do appreciate the consideration. I will look around again using Brian's suggestions above.


Question: How long have you practiced and was Jo and Iai tied together in your studies, or presenteted separately but complimentary? (Oh...and Brad is fine, I feel like my father when anyone addresses me as Mr. Burklund, depite turning 40 next year.)


Regards,

Brad Burklund

Tom Christy
17th December 2004, 19:34
Brad,

I practiced Okinawan karate as well as escrima before beginning training with my current instructor in 1998. Since then I have trained in SMR jo as well as MJER iai. They are taught as separate entities. Of course, as Mr. Owens pointed out, the use of the sword is part and parcel of training in SMR jo.

I have to admit that while I love training in the Japanese weapons arts, in my heart of hearts I still think of myself as a karate "thug" (a description I've heard a number of aikidoka use).

Tom Christy

Brad Burklund
17th December 2004, 19:51
Mr. Christy,

Interesting background, that still brings up the question of interference from one set of unarmed techniques to that of armed techniques. Did you notice this? And how accomodating was the Filipino martial arts in this regard?

The karate the I am used to is a Kyokushin derivative, full contact, no pads.....no weapons. I am not sure how this would translate with your experience of weaponed, Okinawan karate which probably had a more formal set of techniques that could transistion between weapon or open handed techniques.

Thanks,

Brad Burklund

Tom Christy
17th December 2004, 20:01
Brad,

Boy howdy did I run into problems from one system to another. As you noted, the weapons taught in Okinawan karate work in conjunction with the unarmed techniques. In the Filipino arts, the techniques for using a stick, knife or empty hand also work together. However, I constantly had to make mental adjustments from one to another since the fundamentals of each are totally dissimilar. When I began training in jo, I was constantly being corrected for doing things in a "karate" way instead of the way that I was being taught.

On top of that, I'm left handed. No problem at all in escrima or karate, only marginally a problem in jo. However, there are no left handed swordsmen in Japan so I had plenty of problems practicing iai. The fact that I haven't managed to cut my own head off still amazes me to no end.

Tom

Brad Burklund
17th December 2004, 20:41
Tom (if I may),

I was afraid you were going to say that. I am originally an Army brat and lived in rural section of Kansas....Tae Kwon Do only *ubiquitous...enough said* changed to karate when I saw its capabilities after I had moved to California 14 years ago.
The problem that I had was that the techniques were so close that my muscle memory had to broken down and then redone applying similar techniques...this took a lot longer than getting the rudimentary basics of judo and grappling, which were very different on specifics, but similar conceptually.

I was hoping that Jodo might be so alien in specific use that I could learn it as a new thing and yet similar where the gross body movement I am used to would still be of available to me. Oh well, it's good to learn new things and to sharpen old abilities.


Regards,

Brad Burklund

Tom Christy
17th December 2004, 21:19
Brad,

Yep, "Tom" works fine. You've got me by about a year and some change, but like you I'm not going into middle age quietly and prefer people not call me Mr. Christy all too often.

Don't let my experience put you off. What experience has taught me is that there are certainly trade-offs to training in more than one art. On one hand it seems that having a background in some form of martial art makes it easier to train in a new one. Since you already have a feel for movement ("kinesthetic perception" I believe they call it), you find it easier to pick things up than somone who has never trained.

That's the up side. The down side is that you probably are going to bring a whole herd of bad habits with you that are going to have to be broken, whereas someone without any previous training doesn't have bad habits to break.

All in all I think it makes the journey that much more interesting. Just make sure that you find yourself a good instructor. Experience has shown me that it is better to spend years looking for a good instructor than spend years training with a mediocre one.

Happy hunting,

Tom

Brad Burklund
17th December 2004, 21:56
Tom,

Thanks.


-Brad

Amphipolis
21st December 2004, 20:58
Any info?

ulvulv
21st December 2004, 21:42
Originally posted by Amphipolis
Any info?


Being among the biggest budocountries in europe, france can for sure offer jodo: Try this for seitei jodo:

http://www.ffjda.com/kendo/jodo.htm

There are also groups outside ekf which offer jodo, dont know any adresses.

Guy LeSieur
21st December 2004, 22:44
Amphipolis,
In case you would prefer the koryű instead of the seitei variety of jo, may I suggest that you visit Pascal Krieger's FEJ (Fédération européenne de jodo) at http://www.fej.ch/ . He is one of only two foreigners to hold a menkyo kaiden on the Shintô musô-ryű jô tradition. His groups in France are numerous and they often meet to practice in numerous gasshuku all around Europe (except for Greece). If you can tell me in which region of France you intend to pratice, I can look somebody up for you. If you speak French, you can always send me a private message.

Cordialement

Amphipolis
22nd December 2004, 06:46
[i]Originally posted by Guy LeSieur He is one of only two foreigners to hold a menkyo kaiden on the Shintô musô-ryű jô tradition. His groups in France are numerous and they often meet to practice in numerous gasshuku all around Europe (except for Greece).

Thanks! Guy!


If you can tell me in which region of France you intend to pratice, I can look somebody up for you. If you speak French, you can always send me a private message.

Unfortunately, my France are pretty poor! I'm interested in South France schools. I'm searching for a teacher there, though I don't know his name! Hahahaha, he may is the one you wrote!

thanks anyway!

dakotajudo
30th December 2004, 21:33
Originally posted by Brad Burklund
Brian,

Thanks for the information. I have been mostly in karate with a little judo, Bjj, and Aikido thrown into the mix. However, have not encountered the Jo in any of these places.

I guess this leads to another question that you might be able to answer. I have been practicing martial arts for over 20 years, but without weapons training. Does weapon training "corrupt" or otherwise change (beneficial or not) the manner in which you would throw hand-to-hand techniques. This may not necessarily present a problem if I had learned a martial art based on weapons that included hand-to-hand, but I have basically zero training in weapons. I guess the reverse could be true...previouse nonweapon training interfering with weapons traingin.

Just curious.

Thanks,

Brad Burklund

From one perspective, aikido empty hand techniques are simply weapons techniques without the weapon (from another, weapons are used as an extension of center; just as hands are, without weapons).

If your primary background is karate, you would probably have as much problem learning aikido as learning aikijo, or vice-versa.

FWIW, for the next few weeks (our off-season, in my judo club), we're working on kata and some jo/hanbo. Mostly from my previous training in aikido, but some of it is using sticks to understand judo principles (i.e. kuzushi). My philosophy is (and it seems to be shared among some styles) is that your primary style, weapons or no, gives you a core set of skills that you ingrain, reflexively almost (that's what we train in judo, in-season; drills for competition skills). To transition from empty hand to weapons (or vice-versa), you should seek to use those core skills as much as possible.

Jo training, to me, seems a natural extension to judo, where ken does not (while ken does seem a natural addition to aikido).

Today I was thinking about flexible weapons (i.e. rope) and judo key-locks (anyway, that's what I learned them as) - using your opponents gi to tie up his wrists or ankles during grappling.

Tom Christy
31st December 2004, 19:55
Mr. Claussen,

Interesting thoughts. I think that there is a lot of truth in the idea that using a weapon can give you insight into your unarmed skill set (and vice versa).

However, I think that you would find some problems when trying to train in another system based on a given weapon. For instance, I do have some training in judo (ikkyu). I can't imagine anything more different in terms of body mechanics and application than judo and SMR jo. There are certain reflexive core principles to every style that can and do present certain problems when transitioning to another system. The things that you have spent years drilling into your brain seem to become liabilities in many cases.

I've got to tell you that you are the first judoka that I've ever heard using a weapon to understand their judo better. Kudos to you! I'd love to hear more about the drills that you use.

Regards,

Tom

Chuck Clark
31st December 2004, 21:05
Mr. Christy,

I have known many judoka over the past 40 years (most of them trained in Japan, usually Kokokan or Keishicho) that also trained in SMR. Shimizu Sensei taught at the Kodokan for quite some time.

Many of the principles of SMR can be found within the kihon of Kodokan judo such as posture, movement, distance, timing, taking balance, fitting yourself and the opponent, strategy, etc.

Best in the new year,

Tom Christy
31st December 2004, 21:27
Mr. Clark,

Thank you for your thoughts. I agree with your comments and would add that the same thing could be said about karate, aikido, etc. when beginning the training of SMR. However, it might seem like nitpicking but I have found in my limited amount of training that people who have backgrounds in these arts often bring certain conditioned reflexes with them that hinder the proper performance of technique. This is hardly something that can't be overcome, but it does provide its own set of challenges.

If I might go out on a limb, I would say that the principles of one art are compatible with the principles of another. However, it seems that sometimes the actual techniques themselves (stance, movement, etc.) are at odds with the tactical methodology of another art. In this sense, I find that karate and judo practitioners often have to unlearn things considered valid in those arts that are not proper in the art of SMR. These things are usually not big, but they do seem to pop up.

Just my 2 cents worth,

Tom

P.S. I believe we have a common acquaintance in the form of Jon Strauss. He's been recovering from a hip injury, so I haven't seen him in the dojo for a bit.

Chuck Clark
1st January 2005, 00:50
Originally posted by Tom Christy I can't imagine anything more different in terms of body mechanics and application than judo and SMR jo. There are certain reflexive core principles to every style that can and do present certain problems when transitioning to another system. The things that you have spent years drilling into your brain seem to become liabilities in many cases.

Mr. Christy,

The quote above is what I based my first post on. Possibly your statement about the difference in mechanics and application is true if you're basing your view on kyogi judo. The type of mechanics used in Olympic style sport judo is vastly different to SMR jo. However, I have experienced many similarities in SMR to the tadashi judo that I learned.

I think my viewpoint comes from a different place, and we use the same words but in different ways. Very difficult to discuss these sorts of variables on the web.

I haven't seen Jon in a long time or heard how he's healing. It must be frustrating to deal with that sort of injury. I'm just now beginning to get to return to some semblance of training the way I like due to health problems. Better times in the coming year, I'm sure. If you see Jon, please pass on my best wishes.

Tom Christy
1st January 2005, 02:23
Mr. Clark,

I agree that words often are a real hindrance to communication. :) The only exposure to judo that I have had is of the competitive "Olympic" type, so we are in complete agreement as to its differences to SMR jo. As to more traditional judo, I have no knowledge of the subject and will gladly accept your analysis.

I just saw Jon before Christmas and will pass along your best wishes when I see him next. Hopefully this next year will be far better for all of us (Lord knows I could use it!)

Regards,

Tom