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Bruce Mitchell
19th December 2004, 20:48
In the recent thread “let’s see you do that with shinken”, a lively debate was raged regarding the efficacy of pursuits such as Zen, Chado, etc. in developing the enigmatic state of mind known as Mushin. For the first ten of the twenty plus years that I have been practicing martial arts I firmly believed this as well. Then about ten years ago I joined the International Hoplology Society and started reading about combative behavior outside of martial arts literature. I have primarily read works that look at the roots of violent behavior in men, such as,
“The Two Faces of Combatives”, Hunter Armstrong
“Training the Use-of-Arms Professional: Effect-Not Display”, Hunter Armstrong
“Approach-Close-Enter”, Hunter Armstrong
“The Koryu Bujutsu Experience”, Hunter Armstrong
“The Professional Perspective: Thoughts on the Koryu Bujutsu from a United States Marine”, George Bristol
“Marishiten: Buddhist Influence on Combative Behavior”, David Hall
“Paleolithic Adaptive Traits and The Fighting Man”, Richard Hayes
Among The Thugs, Bill Buford
Ecological Imperialism, Alfred Crosby
The Third Chimpanzee, Jared Diamond
Guns, Germs, and Steel, Jared Diamond
The Dark Side of Man, Michael Ghilglieri
On Killing, Lt. Col. Dave Grossman
The Western Way of War, Victor Hanson
Acts of War, Richard Holmes
The Biology of Peace and War, Irenaus Eibl-Elbesfeldt
War Before Civilization, Liam Keeley
Man the Hunter, ED. By Lee and Devore
Men Against Fire, S.L.A. Marshall
The Biology of Violence, Debra Niehoff
Demonic Males, Wrangham and Peterson

I have also played around with some close quarters combative training in the past few years, primarily Fairbairn’s Defendu. So my first hand, or emic, experience comes from the practice of koryu bujutsu and CQB classes. All of this reading has left me firmly convinced that the best way to develop the proper mindset for Budo is to partake in activities that simulate combative stress as closely as possible, mainly, koryu Bujutsu practice. I was also left thinking that 99% of what I had read in “martial arts” books about the “Warrior” mindset, or the Zen, Chado, etc. links to martial arts was utter rubbish.

But, in light of the current debate, I decided to re-examine my thoughts on the matter. Where did my early thoughts about Zen and the like come from? Well, I had remembered reading Zen in the Martial Arts, by Joe Hyams, and Herrrigal’s Zen and the Art of Archery, among other things. I also decided to read some books on Zen, including some of D.T. Suzuki’s stuff. He was really big on the Zen-Martial Arts connection, although he never was an acolyte of either. Looking back, these books are all total rubbish, but they romanticized the Samurai fiction that I firmly believed in at that time (I should add that I was an impressionable teenager when I started martial arts). But I ask my self now, is there more evidence to be had about an actual connection. Then it hit me, I had been overlooking a couple of major works, that are widely available in English, and actually arry some weight. .The first is William Scott Wilson’s translation of The Unfettered Mind: Writings from a Zen Master to a Master Swordsman, by Takuan Soho, and Wilson’s translation of Miyamoto Musashi’s “A Book of Five Rings”. Now, I don’t read Japanese so I am in no place to say whether or not these are accurate or decent translations of these works, but they are important pieces in the Zen mind/Budo mind puzzle. I also reread one of the Donn F. Draeger monographs that I have, entitled “Zen and the Japanese Warrior”. All of these works leads me to re-examine my position and to believe that there is a valid link between these arts. I am very curious to see what others here have to say about this.

J. A. Crippen
19th December 2004, 21:24
I'm under the impression that for most koryu the traditional spiritual belief system centers around Shingon or Tendai style mikkyo, with ample helpings of Shinto ideas, many of which are actually part and parcel with mikkyo. The tradition that was heavily affected by Zen belief and thought is Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, under the influence of Takuan Soho.

(I should note that I'm not a koryu practitioner, merely an observer. I intend to enter koryu training in the future, however. I'm just in the wrong part of the country.)

For the gendai budo, it's certain that Zen is an important part of the belief system. Aikido is an exemplar of this (although I get the feeling that Ueshiba wasn't a Zen follower, his students have emphasized it). Hyams's writing on Zen seems to have had a heavy influence on karate and judo practitioners as well.

One of the reasons for the preponderance of Zen amongst the gendai budo is, I think, because it's easily accessible in comparison to such obscurities as Shinto and mikkyo teachings. The idea of Zen being easily accessible is odd, I'll grant, but actually it's quite obvious if you check the Buddhism section of your local bookstore. It's made up of equal parts Theravada, Tibetan, and Zen. You're not going to see anything Shingon or Tendai related (although I *did* pick up a book on Shingon once at a bookstore, it was a used bookstore and as such the book ended up there by chance). So to the budoka seeking spiritual improvement which will influence his training, Zen seems to be an obvious choice.

Frankly, I don't quite understand what Zen provides in the context of bujutsu training. It seems to me that regular meditation, while certainly useful, requires such a heavy commitment from the practitioner that it subtracts from time that could be otherwise spent training. The concept of self-enlightenment, that you can't come to complete understanding by external means, is certainly in line with bujutsu concepts of the student learning through continual practice with occasional breakthroughs. But both Zen and bujutsu have in common a requirement of extensive practice, and doing one seems to me to cut into the time that could be spent in the other. Would you like to be a celebrated violinist or a wealthy businessman? You can't have both because they both eat up all of your life. In contrast mikkyo and Shinto seem to me to focus on more immediate gains and short-term involvement, versus long term extensive study.

Old Dragon
19th December 2004, 21:36
I have been training for over 2o years. I have through my profession encounterd a number of violent situations and have found my mind to be racing, my adrenilin running and find myself responding on instinct. Weather or not "no mind" was in place quite frankly I could not tell you.

On the other hand, in doing drills and sparring I have found that by lowering my hands, relaxing and literally "stopping my desire to preempt" my opponents move I will do much better in my response/reaction.

I find that researching the philosophies of Zen, (I have also read much of your list as well as Suzuki and have come to the conclusion that his "response" based concept is one that is applied to all of one's life experiences.

In demonstrating this to a class my classic routine is to ask the senior student to attack without a pre arranged technique. They are told to attack with no less than 4 techniques for demonstration purposes. Sometimes the 4th one will penetrate but for the most part all are blocked or avoided. Because I have them come at me full force I tend to only block and not counter and normally before they have completed the 4 moves I will have them in a position of vulnerability.

Sensei taught me a lesson years ago when he was teaching "perferial vision" when looking at his eyes I could not block his attacks. He stood in front of me, and simply began to slap me with both hands, we did not move our feet, the exercise was to demonstrate my ability to block while looking at the eyes. When I was instructed to "gaze" at his upper chest and see the movements with the "perferial" vision I blocked all slaps. I realized later that by watching the chest, and not wanting to get hit in the head again,(One slap definatly rang my bell hahaha) that on the second phase of the exercise I was responding and not thinking of what was coming.

Sensei also related some of this to the Zen concept of no mind and defined the difference to "appropriate resoponse" as opposed to a "planned reaction"

Thinking is slower than responding.

Mike O'Leary

Bruce Mitchell
19th December 2004, 22:48
Thanks for the answers guys. Excellent thoughts. But I what I am really interested in is verifiable historical links between Zen and the martial arts, that support the idea that doing an activity like Zen will enable you to have the proper mindset for Budo.

Mr. Crippen, I am aware of the Yagyu connection, but Takuan lived in the seventeenth century. In Draeger’s monograph, he places the beginning of Zen influence on martial arts in the twelfth to thirteenth century with the development of the Rinzai sect under Eisai.

Here is some of what Draeger had to say in the above-mentioned monograph
“So, the ability to transcend this worry about life and death is one of the purposes of Zen training, and it is done through the physical koan which you will see on the film. I call it a “flirt with death.” Daily, you will walk under a blade that’s coming down for the top of your head. Everyday you train, you come close to, well, flirting with it. So, after a while…and what is a while? It depends on you. Kankei nai as the Japanese say. You don’ t think about it anymore. In fact, you’ve gained some confidence. You’re going to deal with it properly. Deflect it, parry it, evade it, and come up with something of your own. That’s a very important consideration in Zen.”

And,

“ Now, I would like you to realize that Zen is not Unitarian, even today. There are people who treat Zen exactly as I put on the board today. That’s all Zen to them. They don’t go to a temple. They do it in the confines of their own land. Walking, standing, reclining, sitting, no matter what. But with complete dedication and respect, just as someone who is sitting in a temple. ..They may be farmers or merchants; some of them are of warrior blood, such as Otake sensei who was here. He is of the Seiwa Genji, Minamoto bloodline. He is a warrior family, very high class one. He is a horse breeder, a rancher by profession. Martial arts is very much in his life; it is not his occupation. He is an advocate of Zen discipline, but we never mention the word. You can go for 10, 15 years in a classical dojo and never hear anybody talk about Zen. That is Zen. On the other hand, you go to another place where, ‘oh man, you’re not Zen tonight, let’s do some more meditation.’ Always talking. All the terminology is flowing like a fountain. But maybe very little Zen. So there is a difference.”

Now I am also well aware that many of the ancient samurai actually practiced Shinto with more commitment then Zen or Buddhism. But what I am curious about is what Draeger talks about in the kata of koryu Bujutsu being a physical koan, and how much the philosophy, not the religion, of Zen influenced the koryu arts, and when did the connection between Zen and gendai arts re-emerge. Because it seems to me that the modern inclusion of Zen in martial arts is a specious one, starting during the early part of the twentieth century as a part of the militarization of Japan, and continued to an absurd degree by morons from the West such as Herrigal and the Aiki-fruits who were all just living out their own fantasies with no concern for reality.

P Goldsbury
19th December 2004, 22:54
Mr Mitchell,

I suggest you look at the Japanese concept of 'shugyou' (practice/training/ascetic training), as it has developped over the centuries. There is a link between shugyou and many Japanese traditional arts, including folk arts such as kagura and martial arts.

I think the Zen connection to the martial arts came via Noh drama and Chado, through a codification of rules and forms which constituted correct practice, only this, of course, leading to the desired 'pure experience'.

Another problem is that there has been a 'washback effect' with the writings of people like Nitobe Inazo, Lafcadio Hearn, Ruth Benedict, D T Suzuki and, to a lesser extent, Herrigel. Apart from defining for non-Japanese the boundaries within which Japanese culture was to be understood by non-Japanese, these various works have also been taken up by the Japanese themselves as explaining parts of the 'essence' of Japanese culture. Before I came to live here, I myself was given Hearn's "Japan: An Interpretation" by my first Japanese martial arts teacher and it took me a long time to see how seriously flawed it was.

Best regards,

Bruce Mitchell
19th December 2004, 23:09
Thank you very much for the informative post Proffessor Goldsbury. Would you possibly have any recommendations on works in English that address the concept of shugyo?

p.s. I hope I didn't offend with my less than polite refernece to Aikidoka. I have met a number of outstanding teachers, but much of the West Coast is inhabited with snake oil peddlers. And they write a lot of swill about the connection between martial arts and Zen, TM, you name it. I think that some of them are actually genuine in their pursuits and delusions, but some of them are just trying to make a buck by marketing the latest budo-babble craze.

P Goldsbury
19th December 2004, 23:25
Originally posted by Bruce Mitchell
Thank you very much for the informative post Proffessor Goldsbury. Would you possibly have any recommendations on works in English that address the concept of shugyo?

p.s. I hope I didn't offend with my less than polite refernece to Aikidoka. I have met a number of outstanding teachers, but much of the West Coast is inhabited with snake oil peddlers. And they write a lot of swill about the connection between martial arts and Zen, TM, you name it. I think that some of them are actually genuine in their pursuits and delusions, but some of them are just trying to make a buck by marketing the latest budo-babble craze.

I am not in my office at the moment, but much of the material in English is in academic papers. Off hand, anything written by the following scholars will be a good start: Mark Teeuwen, Alan Grapard, Fabio Rambelli, Bernard Faure, Joy Hendry, Emiko Ohnuki-Tierney, Rupert A Cox and James Heisig.

Happy reading!

PS. No offence taken. I looked at your profile and can tell you that I have had some memorable training experiences with Mr Ichiro Shibata.

shieldcaster
20th December 2004, 00:55
Bruce,

Try checking out Stevens' book about Yamaoka Tesshu. It is obviously slanted, being a complete praise of Tesshu, but it could help you notice some 'historical' approaches to the 'Zen mind'.

Apparetnly, Tesshu did not require any of his students to cross-train in any of his other arts (Shodo, Zen & Kenjutsu). He claimed that one could reach the same level of 'satori' dilligently training in any of them--and other traditional arts, as well.

As for following more than one path to this lofty psycho-spiritual state, and that multi-path being too difficult, Tesshu was a noted Zen master, the headmaster of two branches of Itto-ryu (and developed a third, his own Muto-ryu) and was also the headmaster of one school of shodo. Apparetnly he devoted his time equally to all of these chosen paths.

Further, his wife did not wish to study Zen, so Tesshu found a Shingon priest to help his wife and his children along the path. Arguably, an enlightened Zen/Shodo/Sword master would not simply turn up a Shingon priest for the sake of keeping his family busy, so he, at least, saw merit in pursuing Shingon as a path to the greater goal.

So, that covers Tesshu in a few paragraphs. Now, back to budo. Two of the oldest koryu were set squarely and firmly upon the foundation of Shinto (Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu & Kashima Shinryu). That is not to say that elements from other religio-spiritual systems did not find their way into these schools through later headmasters. Both schools, as far as I have seen, do not require any specific type of spiritual belief--or any belief at all--for the sake of being a practitioner. However, the schools themselves are doubtless founded upon these beliefs and there would, no doubt, be certain levels of understanding available to a practitioner who may decide to adopt those beliefs.

By what I have read and understood, most warriors of classical Japan were very pragmatic creatures. There is no argument as to the practical applications of a mental state like mushin. However, it has been stated here and elsewhere that pusuing Zen isn't simply showing up on Sunday and lighting a few candles. It takes sincere devotion--devotion that I would presume a professional warrior did not entirely have time for if he was to be prepared for battle. You will see that Zen and budo became far more widely interchangeable only in the later decades leading up to the Meiji Restoration, and certainly thereafter, when many of the swordsmen of the time (Tesshu, et al) were not (even nominally, as in the Edo Period) professional warriors. It gave them more time to dip their little fingers into other pies, and not be so concerned with trivial things like dying (a bit ironic for Zen warriors, I would say, not being concerned with death because there was no real threat to your life).

There is absolutely a connection between Zen and martial arts. Though, it is clearly seen that this connection is not quite as umbilical as many practitioners of both would have you believe. Historically, many individuals have [apparently] achieved satori outside the context of Zen. And many of the greatest swordsmen/budoka have had no connection to Zen whatsoever (Iizasa, Bokuden, Kunii Zen'ya, Ueshiba...er...Bruce Lee).

The fact that these examples exist outside the context of Zen or the 'Zen mind' does not insubstantiate the applicability or intermingling of Zen and MA, which, again, I think many dual-practitioners feel is the case, when one argues that there is not actually a foundational connection between the two. (Damn, that is a long sentence. All those years of Anthropology paid off right there:( .) I think the sheer fact that 'mushin' is now semantically interchangable with 'Zen mind' is a small testament to the monopoloy that many would seek to grant Zen martial artists on this subject.

Truly a dizzying topic, and one that interests me greatly, as well. Good luck wiht all of your research. And do keep us posted on what you turn up.

Sincerely,

Bruce Mitchell
20th December 2004, 01:22
Thanks Matt,
I have Steven's book, but am often put off by his writing style, and feel he is too one sided in presenting his information.

shieldcaster
20th December 2004, 02:07
Man, I know exactly how you feel. It's like a post-mortem masturbation. I know that there are TONS of people out there who really idealize Tesshu--and, mind you, I am not one of them--but this book does tend to put things (few things) into perspective, if you look close enough. Granted, Tesshu was a great man for his time, but I have a problem with anyone who eats vomit--Christ if Ozzy Osbourne did that, he'd never hear the end.

I think that Tesshu may very nearly exemplify the Zen mind in MA perspective. Let me clarify that a bit: I think that the modern Western interpretation of an image that Tesshu is believed to have been--based off of little other than meager 'pop' culture--is the exemplar for many who would contend the Zen and the martial arts perspective.

Here's another angle for you: Zen seeks to reach the state of mind that the Buddha Sakyamuni preached during the first few weeks of his enlightenment, as I understand. Now, just about any Buddhist scholar (something orthodox Zen would argue against) will tell you that during the first few weeks of the Prince Formerly Known As Siddhartha's Awakening, what he taught was Hwa-Yen (Jp Kegon) Buddhism. But no one understood him. Hwa-Yen and Chan masters (many were both) argued that Chan and Hwa-Yen were to diametrically opposed paths to the very same goal: one promtes a whole lotta reading and studying and library time and analysis and understanding causality, and the other says just show up...oh and good luck! Some Buddhist scholars argue that you cannot truly understand the Buddha Mind without walking both paths (equal extremes of the same Buddhist spectrum).

Now, I think that 'Zen mind' and 'Buddha Mind' are the same thing, ultimately. Though, they may have differing perceptive applications in one's life and dealings. Where was I going with this...?:confused: SHITE! Sorry, I lost it--I type far too slow.

Anyhoo. Takuan himself also professed that there were many paths to the state of no mind, though he obviously thought that Zen was the best. The reason, he argued, that swordsmanship (with Zen) was such a good vehicle for the realization of this process and state, was that the variables were so vast (too many mind, hah) compared to other ways, and after paying so close attention to all of the causal elements, one would eventually come full circle and be in a state of no mind. Thus, Zen put you in the correct frame of mind, and sowrdsmanship allowed for the application of thate mind-frame, consequently leading to the state of no mind.

I think that I got my other point back. So, even Takuan states that in this state of no mind, anyone will be able to apply that state to anything they ever pursue: art, tea, frisbee, kenjutsu. This state gives them the ultimate 'open-mindedness', something that Miyamoto Musashi and the ninjas call Void. It is through this 'void' state, this 'no mind' that the warrior would be able to achieve perfection in his swordwork. But, yet again, Takuan says that he will be able to be perfect at anything (Musashi's art, Tesshu's calligraphy...).

Sorry if I am straying, I can do that sometimes.

Now, if we are just trying to find some sort of actual demographic evidence and some solid numbers, I'm affraid that I can't help you there. Dr.s Friday and Bodiford have chimed in on more than a few threads regarding this issue. And I think that you would find there information useful. Check on their profiles for old posts and see what you come up with.

Thanks for listening...

renfield_kuroda
20th December 2004, 08:49
The general, overall connection between koryu and zen is not nearly as typical as most make it out to be. As mentioned above, the more likely connection is with shinto; arguably a 'religious' connection at all.
But there are several concrete examples of connections between zen and koryu.
Mugairyu Iaihyodo, founded by Tsuji Gettan Sukemochi in 1693 is a prime example. After studying Yamaguchi-ryu and Chinese Zen philosophy he became equally well know for the sword and the zen philosophy.
More modern times gives us Omori Sogen, an accomplished zen monk charged with introducing zen to the West and himself an accomplished martial artist in several koryu. Don't know if "ken-to-zen" (Zen and the Sword) has been translated well if at all, but that's worth a read.

Regards,

r e n

R A Sosnowski
20th December 2004, 16:55
Originally posted by renfield_kuroda ...
More modern times gives us Omori Sogen, an accomplished zen monk charged with introducing zen to the West and himself an accomplished martial artist in several koryu. Don't know if "ken-to-zen" (Zen and the Sword) has been translated well if at all, but that's worth a read.

Regards,
r e n
A slim volume called Zen & Budo (Zen to Budo) by Omori Sogen has been translated into English. It is or was available from Daihonzan Chozen-ji/International Zen Dojo of Honolulu (c 1989). The late Omori-roshi does reference his book "Ken to Zen" (Zen and the Sword) at the beginning of Ch. 2.

Earl Hartman
20th December 2004, 19:18
Originally posted by Bruce Mitchell
Daily, you will walk under a blade that’s coming down for the top of your head. Everyday you train, you come close to, well, flirting with it. So, after a while…and what is a while? It depends on you. Kankei nai as the Japanese say. You don’ t think about it anymore. In fact, you’ve gained some confidence. You’re going to deal with it properly. Deflect it, parry it, evade it, and come up with something of your own.”

Hm. Sounds like budo training to me.

Anyway, all of the people who talk about this stress over and over again that you can get the "Zen mind" by training in budo.

So, fine. Train. If I've got an hour to sit on my a** staring at a wall, I've got an hour to shoot arrows or swing a sword or a stick.

If you're interestred only in "the mind", futzing around sitting on a cushion might be the best way to do it. If you're interested in actually learning how to DO something, why waste your time?

Oh, yeah, before I forget: Herrigel had no bleeding idea what he was talking about.

SBreheney
20th December 2004, 19:54
Anyway, all of the people who talk about this stress over and over again that you can get the "Zen mind" by training in budo. So, fine. Train. If I've got an hour to sit on my a** staring at a wall, I've got an hour to shoot arrows or swing a sword or a stick.

If you're interestred only in "the mind", futzing around sitting on a cushion might be the best way to do it. If you're interested in actually learning how to DO something, why waste your time?

Oh, yeah: Herrigel had no bleeding idea what he was talking about.

Whoa, Mr. Hartman, pretty harsh words for we who "futz" around on a cushion!
I, for one, try to sit on the cushion, not futz. :)

From a certain perspective, zazen is about paying attention. No more, but no less either. IMHO, the same can also be said about budo.

And both Zen and budo can be said to be simple, but not necessarily easy.

But I think we both agree that the connection between Zen and budo has indeed been overstated by many authors, to the detriment of way too many eager readers. There ain't no shortcuts: Want to learn how to swing a sword? Swing a sword. Want to learn how to sit? Sit.

Oh, and I think we agree about that Herrigel thing too.;)

Earl Hartman
20th December 2004, 20:10
Originally posted by SBreheney
Whoa, Mr. Hartman, pretty harsh words for we who "futz" around on a cushion! I, for one, try to sit on the cushion, not futz. :)

I am referring to people who futz around on a cushion looking for budo. I have nothing but respect for people who are serious about meditiation, or whatever their chosen Way happens to be. I have a problem with people who think the can discover the secret of budo by sitting around.


Originally posted by SBreheney
From a certain perspective, zazen is about paying attention. No more, but no less either. IMHO, the same can also be said about budo.

But I think we both agree that the connection between Zen and budo has indeed been overstated by many authors, to the detriment of way too many eager readers.

Agree.


Originally posted by SBreheney
There ain't no shortcuts: Want to learn how to swing a sword? Swing a sword. Want to learn how to sit? Sit.

That's all I'm saying.


Originally posted by SBreheney
Oh, and I think we agree about that Herrigel thing too.;)

Well, I'm glad to see that Zen has taught you something of value, at least.

:D

SBreheney
20th December 2004, 21:01
I am referring to people who futz around on a cushion looking for budo. I have nothing but respect for people who are serious about meditiation, or whatever their chosen Way happens to be.

Thank you for the clarification. I misunderstood.:smilejapa


I have a problem with people who think the can discover the secret of budo by sitting around.

Yup. Well put.

Sukeyasu
21st December 2004, 00:13
Inasmuch as no evidence of Mahayana philosophy dating from much before the first century BCE has been found, I don't think the Buddha would have been explaining his Kegon theories at the time of his enlightenment some 500 years before the emergence of the Mahayanist sects, of which Kegon was one. I think that's what most Buddhist scholars would tell you, just so you know.

As far as Zen and budo goes, the link between the two probably would have varied with respect to the class and religious background of the martial artist (at least until the development of "bushido" late in the 18th century). Certainly there has always been a strong connection between Zen and the upper echelons of samurai society from the very beginning of Zen's introduction to Japan. Eisai's (the transmitter of Rinzai Zen to Japan) first temple in Japan was built under the patronage of the Kamakura shogunate as were later Zen temples in the city of Kamakura itself. Muso Kokushi was also a favored advisor of the Hojo. When the Ashikaga got their turn, the collaboration between Zen and the shogunate continued. Kinkakuji, Ginkakuji, Shokokuji--all were built by Ashikaga shogun. Why the early bakufu were so drawn to Zen is less easy to explain. Some say it was the freshness of the new sect or the austerity of its discipline. I happen to think that many samurai were drawn to the legitimation that Zen could give to their martial pursuits that other forms of Buddhism could not.

What was that legitimation? There seems to be a misconception on this board that Zen can only be practiced in its sitting incarnation, or zazen. But that is hardly the case. Zen can be practiced sitting, standing, walking, running and in any other condition humanly possible. The only requisite is that the action performed is done with full concentration, so that outward concerns are lost in the application of the moment. That is Zen, and Dogen would tell you that it is also part and parcel of enlightenment. In the Zen temple, the monks only practice zazen maybe one or two hours a day; the rest of their time is occupied with cleaning and prayer, which are considered equally as important as their time in the meditation hall. In fact, the Zen great Hakuin argued that so-called "moving" Zen was of more value than the "passive" kind. So you can see why Zen appealed to both the average and the elite samurai. With every practice strike of the bokuto, every swing of the hoe, the samurai was validating his existence as part of a moral fabric.

The influence of Zen is definitely evident in Miyamoto Musashi's works. Musashi stressed a high level of involvement in many disciplines--from the tea ceremony to calligraphy--all to better perfect his understanding of the Zen mind. Even Yamamoto Tsunetomo, whose philosophy at first glance is the polar opposite of Musashi's, can be seen in this light. In Hagakure, Tsunetomo's constant emphasis on his "one thing," unquestioning service to his lord, displayed a singularity of focus similar to the eradication of ego characteristic of Zen Buddhism. When Tsunetomo's lord died, he tried to commit suicide. And when he was stopped from doing that, he became a monk.

So if you look at the issue from this perspective, it might seem that Zen and budo have more in common than previously thought. Likely samurai adherents of Zen (and there were a lot) used its thought system when validating their own lifestyles, just as Shingon samurai would do the same in terms of their own faith. The tea ceremony, for example, then is not a means of bettering his swordsmanship, but instead the Zen samurai uses both sado and kenjutsu as equally useful ways to come to enlightenment.

Bruce Mitchell
21st December 2004, 00:48
:D Very Happy to have started a lively debate. Thanks for chiming in Earl! I am in agreement with your comments in another thread that the practice of Zazen is most going to benefit someone who has already had able experience in Budo and is interpreting their Zen experience through their budo experience.

As for why the upper crust of Japanese society would endorse the introduction of Zen, I think that the answer is most likely to be found by examining the politics of the time. Often, endorsing one religion was more about suppressing another. Those Tendai monks getting to big for their britches? Cut their funding, and undercut their public support by backing another religion. Religion and budo were both tools in the political arsenal of Japan's leaders. Religion provides excuses, not legitamcy.

I personally think that many of the misconceptions stem from the fact that many people seem to think that he warrior class were all out there trying to "perfect" themselves. Strictures around practicing things like Chado were there to keep lay about Samurai out of trouble. The average Samurai was probably about as interested in these things as I was in attending Sunday school as a Catholic youth, not very. But you do it because that is what is expected of you.

Earl Hartman
21st December 2004, 01:01
Just to play Devil's advocate:


Originally posted by Sukeyasu
The tea ceremony, for example, then is not a means of bettering his swordsmanship

Then why would a swordsman be interested in wasting his time with it?


Originally posted by Sukeyasu
but instead the Zen samurai

Huh? What is a "Zen samurai"?


Originally posted by Sukeyasu
uses both sado and kenjutsu as equally useful ways to come to enlightenment.

Again, if we accept the contention that swordsmanship is just as good a way, if not better, to obtain this "enlightenment", or whatever it is, why would a swordsman not just do swordsmanship and forget all of the rest of it?

What the hell is "enlightenment", anyway? If I am a swordsman, "enlightenement" means understanding the Way of Strategy (Heiho no Michi), nothing more and nothing less. If tea and flowers don't help, who needs them?

Also, why do we assume that a swordsman must necessarily be interested in "enlightenment", and that it is the quest for this "enlightenment" that drives everything he does? And why do we assume that "enlightenment", is the same for every Way?

renfield_kuroda
21st December 2004, 02:10
Originally posted by Earl Hartman
Just to play Devil's advocate:
Then why would a swordsman be interested in wasting his time with it?
A much larger question, eh.
Depending on the historical period and other factors (age, rank, etc.), a samurai either sought to be the ultimate warrior, or he sought to be the ultimate person. Sometimes to mutual exclusivity. Plenty of examples of samurai with a path that goes from stunning soldier to respected socialite/artist/philosopher.
I don't think we can discount tea, especially since so many accomplished samurai took it upon themselves to master tea. But WHY did they choose to? To better their soldiering? To benefit society? To kill time in old age, during peaceful days?
Many samurai sought to be many different things, at different times, for different reasons. The problem is with the generic samurai = flower-arranging master solider poet philosopher stereotype.
Many samurai were simply well-educated folks, well-cultured. We get that today. Look at Kuroda Tetsuzan. He has written several excellent books. Does being a writer/artist help his martial arts prowess? Doubtful. But he is a literate, well-educated man who enjoys teaching and sharing. That makes him a proliferate artist/writer. And he's a kickin' martialist who spends hours a day in the dojo.
Don't necessarily think relation = causation.

Regards,

r e n

Earl Hartman
21st December 2004, 02:16
Like I said, Ren, I'm playing Devil's advocate. I am not denying that cultural pusuits such as tea, ikebana, painting, dance, or whatever have a place in a well-rounded and cultured life. (FWIW, I think they do.) I am simply taking issue with the assumption that doing such things has anything to do with budo necessarily. Just because a member of the military aristocracy does something does not necessarily mean that it must have a specific relationship to martial arts.

shieldcaster
21st December 2004, 02:45
Noted, Ben. And good post. However, maybe I missed hte initial point of this thread in that it was trying to substantiate a somewhat 'primeval' relationship between Zen and Budo. There is no doubt that MANY samurai of varying stata and varying era were Zen adherents. There is, however, myriad doubt with regard to the level of effect Zen had on koryu itself, notwithstanding any relation to individual kobudoka.

For every example of a great swordsmen being a devout Zen practitioner, there are a dozen more examples of not only swordsmen, but entire schools of swordsmanship that were founded and disseminated entirely outside even a remotely perceived Zen context. Certainly, anyone can believe anything they want--as an individual--but if a school says it's founded on nani nani principles, then those are the principles that the ryu was founded on. And, I think that it would be rather difficult to establish a significant number of schools that were founded on, and operated fundamentally through, Zen principles. Significant schools, maybe, but a significant number of schools...Especially in the early days of TSKSR or KSSR. Not until Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, I think, will you find a dominantly Zen-pervasive ryu (ryu, not individual, mind you).

Happy Holidays.

shieldcaster
21st December 2004, 03:54
Oh, yes, Ben, I forgot, the ole semantics and literality thing. You are right, in a textbook sense, regarding Kegon, Buddha and Mahayana Buddhism.

I guess what I should have said was: In my rather exhaustive search for information regarding the rather elusive Kegon-shu, both in person and in literature, the handful or so 'Buddhist scholars' that I have spoken with AND the...I don't know, three or so books that have ever been published on the subject, AND I can't forget the actual Buddhist laymen and priests (from a plethora of shu and ha) I have been in contact with have (if not instantly and selflessly offering the age old palms up) all chimed in with the whole 'Kegon is what the Buddha taught immediately following his enlightenment' gag. Those kookie guys--I shoulda known they'd be pulling the gaijin's leg:eek: .

Sorry for the subjectivity of that above post regarding Kegon. I do understand that facts are fluid and entirely dependent upon an individual's perception.

Happy Holidays, everyone. Or, where applicable, Happy sitting alone in the cold hating the everyone else is having a good time.

Sukeyasu
21st December 2004, 04:26
Yeah, I think I'm actually in agreement with most people on this board; I was just choosing to look at the issue differently. Instead of evaluating a samurai's adherence to Zen as a way to better his skills with the katana, I was looking at him first as a Buddhist who would then necessarily try to sanction his lifestyle in a manner that would fit with his worldview. Human beings have always searched for meaning in their lives, and it would have been no different for the samurai.

In assessing individual samurai, I was arguing (maybe in a roundabout way) that we can't really say whether or not Zen directly influenced pre-modern budo in a manner common to all bushi. I happen to believe that in actuality Zen and budo didn't become synonymous until the formal elucidation of bushido, or even later. However, owing to the fact that the Zen sects were among the largest of the Japanese forms of Buddhism I have to recognize that Zen tenets were on the mind of many a samurai--men who may have gone on to work them into their personal fighting methods. I don't know if that counts as a phenomenon widespread enough to serve as a foundational link between Zen and budo, and that's not to suggest that all samurai were drawn to Zen for personal salvation; but there were more than a few. And with the examples of men like Miyamoto Musashi or the Itto Ryu schools (whose one hit, one kill approach would appear to have been affected by Zen thought), undeniably there were antecedents of the modern Zen-martial arts association prior to late-Tokugawa times.

As an aside, by "Zen samurai" all I mean is samurai who follow Zen teachings.

Earl Hartman
21st December 2004, 06:19
Originally posted by Sukeyasu
And with the examples of men like Miyamoto Musashi or the Itto Ryu schools (whose one hit, one kill approach would appear to have been affected by Zen thought)

Why is this an example of Zen thought?

If you're in a swordfight, you want to finish it as quickly as possible, because if you don't you might get killed. That's not Zen, it's swordsmanship (not to mention common sense).

What, you think the guy says "No, I won't kill him right away, I'll let him take a bunch of shots at me, which I will evade, block, or parry, (you know, just for the hell of it) and then I'll take a bunch of shots at him and see what happens. Then, eventually, I'll kill him. Yeah, that's the ticket."

Anybody who doesn't try to finish the thing ASAP is probably going to wind up on the short end of the stick.

renfield_kuroda
21st December 2004, 08:06
Originally posted by Earl Hartman
Anybody who doesn't try to finish the thing ASAP is probably going to wind up on the short end of the stick. Massive and inexcusable threadjack, but I never really got that saying "short end of the stick?"
What the hell does that mean anyway? And were does it come from?

Personally I'd rather be on the short end, in that I'm not getting hit (or the short end being the tsuka? In which case I'm still not getting cut.)

Confused,

r e n

Sukeyasu
21st December 2004, 08:57
It's not just the axiom of one hit, one kill, but its foundation on simplicity, directness of purpose and seeking to blend with the intention of the opponent by which I would identify Itto Ryu as a Zen-influenced art. Not being intimately familiar with kenjutsu myself, I don't know how greatly this would differentiate it from the other mainline schools; perhaps some kenjutsu adepts from other disciplines could give us their thoughts. But indeed, the Tokugawa Bakufu found Itto Ryu sufficiently unique to merit its adoption as an official shogunal art. This would lead me to believe that in fact the other sword schools at the time relied more on feignts and parries and/or grappling techniques akin to the Takenouchi Ryu's kumiuchi kenden better suited to warriors clad in full armor. It may have been Ito Ittosai's genius to break from this tradition and form a more pragmatic body of technique befitting Japan's transition to a state of peace. Whether this innovation was precipitated by a deliberation on Zen principles or not, in any case the Itto Ryu line has become strongly tied to the Zen sect. So either set in motion by Zen or reinforced by it, Itto Ryu can definitely be counted among the forerunners of modern budo for its connection to that particular religious order.

Old Dragon
21st December 2004, 09:06
I beleive that the proper "response" to any confrontation is not that it may be steeped in Zen, but that the proper "response" rather than the proper "reaction" is "Zen".........

The precepts of Zen would dictate that one simply respond to an attack.

Mike O'Leary

nicojo
21st December 2004, 15:01
Mr. Kuroda,



Short end of the stick
Meaning: The inferior part; worse side of an unequal deal.
Example: Trudy got the short end of the stick by having to work an extra hour on graveyard shift of Daylight Savings Day.
Origin: 1500s origin from term "worse end of the staff" which in the mid-1800s became "short" or "shitty end of the stick" - allegedly from a stick poked up one's rectum by another in command of the situation.
Alternative: Fighting with sticks, where having a shorter stick is a disadvantage.
Related Phrase: "Wrong End Of The Stick"
From here (http://www.joe-ks.com/phrases/phrasesS.htm), about halfway down. The meaning is correct, but I am not sure if either origin listed here is accurate. But the second explanation strikes me as logical. All I could find for now.
---

Interesting discussion by the way; at least, I'm enjoying it. Mr. Hartman, you should just put that bit about Herrigel in your signature line.
Oh, yeah, before I forget: Herrigel had no bleeding idea what he was talking about. ;)

Earl Hartman
21st December 2004, 17:57
Originally posted by Sukeyasu
Not being intimately familiar with kenjutsu myself

Oh. Ok, got it.

Cady Goldfield
21st December 2004, 18:13
My understanding is that some samurai studied Zen because it was said to help clear the mind of thought so one could focus during combat, and so they could work past fear and other obstructing emotions.

IMO, the act of engaging in aggressive sword practice is itself akin to a Zen exercize that has the benefit of being directly related to... sword.

Why spend time with tea when what you need is to ingrain good combat mindset. That can happen only by realistic training in combat. "Zen" happens. ;)

W.Bodiford
21st December 2004, 20:51
Anyone interested in this topic should also read the following two essays (in addition to the long list of reading materials already mentioned):

(1) Yamada, Shoji. 2001. "The Myth of Zen in the Art of Archery" Translated by Earl Hartman. *Japanese Journal of Religious Studies* 28, nos. 1-2: 1-30. Available on-line via the journal's homepage (http://www.ic.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/jjrs/jjrs.htm). Click the link titled "Cumulative contents (on-line from 1974)." It is item no. 586. (Or, try the direct link: http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/jjrs/pdf/586.pdf).

(2) Bodiford, William M. 2001. "Religion and Spiritual Development: Japan." In *Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia*, edited by Thomas A. Green (Santa Barbara, Calif.: ABC-CLIO), vol. 2: 472-505.

Both of these essays provide a larger context for evaluating the links between budo and Japanese religions as well as the ways that those links have been interpreted by previous authors. The extensive bibliography in item no. 2 lists many other useful sources for pursuing this topic further.

I hope this information is useful.

Jim Wilson
27th December 2005, 16:32
Oh, yes, Ben, I forgot, the ole semantics and literality thing. You are right, in a textbook sense, regarding Kegon, Buddha and Mahayana Buddhism.

I guess what I should have said was: In my rather exhaustive search for information regarding the rather elusive Kegon-shu, both in person and in literature, the handful or so 'Buddhist scholars' that I have spoken with AND the...I don't know, three or so books that have ever been published on the subject, AND I can't forget the actual Buddhist laymen and priests (from a plethora of shu and ha) I have been in contact with have (if not instantly and selflessly offering the age old palms up) all chimed in with the whole 'Kegon is what the Buddha taught immediately following his enlightenment' gag. Those kookie guys--I shoulda known they'd be pulling the gaijin's leg:eek: .


The view that the Kegon/Avatamsaka Sutra was taught immediately after the Buddha's enlightenment is derived from T'ien T'ai/Tendai exegesis. Chih I categorized all of the Sutras in the Buddhist Canon (which are a huge number) into five periods; the first period being the Avatamasaka/Kegon Sutra. The last period being the Lotus and Mahaparinirvana Sutras.

It is good to keep in mind, though, that this system of classification is not shared throughout the Buddhist world. Theravada Buddhists hold that the first sermon of the Buddha is "The Turning of the Wheel of the Dhamma Sutta" found in the Pali Canon (Theravadan's do not accept the Kegon as Buddhavacana). Vajrayanaists have their own scheme. And even in China this scheme of Chih I's was not universally accepted; though it is very influential and widespread.

The issue of when Mahayana Buddhism appared is very complex (it would be nice if it was simple, but it isn't). Some Mahayana works are good candidates for being very early teachings and, according to scholars, a case can be made for them being contemporary with non-Mahayana traditions. These include The Diamond Sutra, early sections of the Lotus Sutra, the Rice Seedling Sutra, and some others. Basically, the Mahayana, in its early form, was the positing of a Bodhisattva Path of cultivation, and one does find this in some very early sources. Other Mahayana works appeared much later. But even here it is difficult to say for sure just when.

Regarding Zen and the Samurai class, I think some insight on this can be gained by getting a larger context. Zen in China, Ch'an, for example, never had a strong association with the warrior class, nor did/does Zen in Vietnam. In Korea there are some famous episodes of Zen Master, e.g. So Soen Tae Sah, engaging in warfare to defend the nation, then immediatley returning to their meditations.

What I'm getting at is that the association between Zen and the Samurai has as much to do with Japan and Japanese culture as it does with Zen. That is to say the militarization of Buddhism in Japanese history was already firmly established by the time Zen appeared on the scene. The famous Tendai armed battalions, the monk armies, are a rather extreme manifestaiton of this, but also clearly indicate that Japanese culture had merged the two approaches long before Zen appeared on the scene as a separate tradition.

Best wishes,

ichibyoshi
27th January 2006, 04:08
My Zen teacher is an enthusiatic supporter of my kendo practice as part of my Zen practice. He doesn't see them as counter-productive at all. But when I mistakenly asked him for training guidance in preparation before a major competition, he just said: "Eat well and sleep well. Train hard in your techniques." He didn't give me a special mudra or koan or anything. He didn't even give me any "Zen" advice, although his advice was in fact, very "Zen".

Later he told me that he once was asked to train a pistol-shooting team in Japan (meditative techniques to lower heart-rate). He said after a year of Zen they didn't do any better, actually did a bit worse, but they didn't mind so much because winning and losing were no longer as important to them!

Trevor Legget published a book with the populist title Samurai Zen (http://books.kelkoo.co.uk/ctl/do/compare?catId=5101&pid=5761799&genreId=16270756&catPath=uk/books&imgProduct=ok) which presents the first translations of some interesting koan collections relating to bushi. Apparently the Regent Tokimune who saw off the (second?) Mongol invasion had an ongoing Zen dialogue with Bukko (Mugaku) Kokushi.

b

J. L. Badgley
28th January 2006, 00:28
Found this today, and it's been an interesting read.

It seems to me that the link really takes hold after the Minamoto create their bakufu out in the provinces, getting out from under the thumb of the politics of the nobles in Heian-kyo. The new upper class of bushi seemed to take to Chinese philosophy, including Zen and Confucianism. One of the things about Zen that a warrior class could appreciate, imho, is that it approaches Buddhism differently from the Shingon and Tendai sects that had been popular in the capital, which seem to have focused much more on learning and esoteric ritual. Zen appears to have been something that you could get the warriors to accept, and it put them in the right frame of mind: even death is unimportant because if you die you will be reincarnated. More important is how you act while you are here. Tie this in, then, with the Confucian teachings that were often imported alongside Zen, including concepts of filial piety, so that you have people that believe that if they do what is right they will be reincarnated on a higher level of existence in the next life and that 'what is right' is to follow [serve->saburau] your lord, even if it means death.

As for things like the Tea Ceremony--remember that it wasn't quite so 'wabi' and 'sabi' focussed before Rikkyu. Early tea ceremonies, from what I've been able to read, were more elaborate ways of showing wealth and power. They were basically the old sake parties of the nobility, with tea substituted in. Rikkyu seems to have really combined this with ideas of austerity (something that was preached during the Kamakura Bakufu but had been rather lost on the Ashikaga during the Muromachi era). It became 'cool' to be humble, and bland, and serious. In many ways, Rikkyu's tea became another status symbol, with people going to great expense to build poor, rustic, falling down tea houses (?!?).

In such an atmosphere, with Zen and Confucianism popular in the upper levels of Japanese society, it is no wonder that there were influences on budo. Heck--'do' comes from the Chinese 'tau', often referring to a spiritual or philosophical path (Kongfuzi often talks of the Tao). 'Do-jo' is a place the 'do' was practiced. Some of the more popular early writings, including Yagyu Munenori's 'Heiho Kadensho' and the writings of Takuan Soho (a Rinzai Zen Buddhist priest).

That said, you had people with other ideas. Omyodo--Japanese version of Chinese astrology and geomancy, along with Buddhism and Shinto--shows up in various forms. The respect for a the spirit of a place, a thing, or even a person seems tied with Shinto. Many dojo have a Shinto shrine.

So I don't think it can be said that Zen has nothing to do with the formation of Japanese budo, but neither is it the totality of it. Japanese thought has brought Buddhism in to Japan along with many other forms of thought, and merged it together with Japanese ideas and philosophies to produce the Japanese mindset that is part and parcel to so many arts.

Okay. I've talked too much. Time to go sit back down in the corner.

Disclaimer: This is all just extemporaneous exposition of my thoughts on the matter based on readings over the last several years. I reserve the right to disagree with and contradict any of my positions herein ;-)

Bruce Mitchell
28th January 2006, 02:17
Later he told me that he once was asked to train a pistol-shooting team in Japan (meditative techniques to lower heart-rate). He said after a year of Zen they didn't do any better, actually did a bit worse, but they didn't mind so much because winning and losing were no longer as important to them!

b

Interesting points. But I wonder if the Japanese team would have cared more if their lives were at stake. My point being that whether you were a bushi from any period in Japanese history, or are a modern soldier or police officer, your performance is the ultimate measure of the effectiveness of your training. I can only assume that it was the same for the bushi of the past. I am beginning to think that the value of zen may not have been so much pre-fight, as post fight. Part of a PTSD reduction plan. This would allow the bushi to have better assimalated their experiences, ultimately enhancing their future perfomance.

In support of this, is does seem that many of the bushi came to Zen later in life.

Old Dragon
29th January 2006, 17:58
[

In support of this, is does seem that many of the bushi came to Zen later in life.[/QUOTE]



I could be totally off the mark here but my understanding has always been that the bushido aspect of training really was focused on after the major era of conflict was over. I cant remember the quotes or text's I got this from but after training the samauri into basiclly human killing machines, and the fuedal era ended, they needed something to slow these warriors down.

The whole Idea of learning calligraphy, the arts, and such did not develop at the same time as the warrior class but came later. Does this ring a bell for anyone else?

Mike O'Leary.

hyaku
29th January 2006, 23:59
But Japanese people as a nation generally reach towards Buddhism as they near death. Taking part in weekly sermons a lot of the talk is about coming to terms with death regardless of age. They constantly talk about and quote about what terminally ill young people have said in a quest to be at peace when death comes and relate this to buddhist precepts.

ichibyoshi
31st January 2006, 23:01
[QUOTE=Bruce Mitchell]Interesting points. But I wonder if the Japanese team would have cared more if their lives were at stake...QUOTE]

I think the point of Zen training is that even in a life-and-death situation, one is to be able to take all things "lightly" as it were. Zen trains one to "go beyond" all dualism: good-evil, life-death, form-emptiness. For someone who has insight into the place beyond these pairs of opposites, I would suggest that there is both never a time when their lives were not at stake, and also there was never a time when they weren't just playing a game. Hence whether you lose the match or lose your life, it's no big deal.

b

hyaku
1st February 2006, 06:56
[QUOTE=Bruce Mitchell]Interesting points. But I wonder if the Japanese team would have cared more if their lives were at stake...QUOTE]

I think the point of Zen training is that even in a life-and-death situation, one is to be able to take all things "lightly" as it were.

This was the point I was trying to make. More towards the acceptance of death. To be able to put it to one side and not cloud the mind.

Musashi talks of this a lot. Of unmei (Fate, destiny, bow to the inevitable) and deal with task at hand.

Waga koto ni oite, kokai wo sezu: Never have regrets about oneself: This means you are the one that has to come to terms with yourself. Your confession in life is to yourself. There should be no regret in human lives.

Bruce Mitchell
3rd February 2006, 00:06
[QUOTE=Bruce Mitchell]Interesting points. But I wonder if the Japanese team would have cared more if their lives were at stake...QUOTE]

I think the point of Zen training is that even in a life-and-death situation, one is to be able to take all things "lightly" as it were .... Hence whether you lose the match or lose your life, it's no big deal.

b

I understand the point that you are making here. I also understand the concept of shinken shobu in matches, but, matches do not approximate the stress of battle. They do not elicit a stress response from the body, i.e. vasoconstriction. Instead they elicit vasodialation, for instance your face becomes red (as opposed to becoming blanched and pale). You may experience a slight adrenaliane rush, but are unlikely to experience the release or cortisol into your system. This is all very signifigant post incident. Just as you probably would not have nightmares from watching a match, an actual duel would be far more traumatic (people often have a stress responses even from seeing a violent incident).

I want to be clear that I am not arguing against the usefulness of zen in addressing PTSD, or in in preventing or defusing a stress response and allowing you to engage from a more centered place. What I do take issue with is the cavalier attitude that much of zenist seem to take about matters of life and death.

It damn well does matter if you live or die in an engagement. Think about it this way, even if you were involved in a personal duel, your actions would have reprecussions beyond yourself, regardless of the outcome. Just look at the tale of the 47 Ronin. While Asano Takumi no kami Naganori may have been able to embody a zen attitude about his own death, his actions effected the lives of his retainers, and ultimately their families as well. Did they take a zenist approach and accept his death?

While understanding that you may die and accepting it is an important part of the psychological preperation for combat, there is a big difference between accepting that reality and taking the situation "lightly".

ichibyoshi
3rd February 2006, 01:58
In take your points Bill and they are well made. I see you understand where I was coming from also.

I think part of the mental preparation for the professional medieval Japanese soldier of the samurai caste was not just thinking that they "may" die in battle, but that they "probably would" die in battle. If they survived, it was a bonus. Hence, no attachments.

Also, training in kendo or kenjutsu during periods of war, with the practitioner constantly feeling it would be likely that these techniques will be necessary is a different thing to today. It has be mentioned elsewhere that menkyo in some koryu would generally be awarded after a shorter period of training during wartime as opposed to during extended peacetime. I take that to mean that the quality and intensity of training was higher as a result of what each student brought to each training: a constant mindfulness of the proximity of death.

Zen Buddhism seems to have neatly served a purpose here, as you rightly characterise, by aiding focus and perhaps also helping to "debrief" battlefield stress. But I believe it also helped *shape* thinking about death, and not just thinking but cultural norms about what constituted a "good" death, a "kakoi" death. The tales of how particularly monks faced their own deaths were widely disseminated in anthologies dating back to Sung China, and these must have served as a model for expected behaviour. An ideal for sure, that doesn't record the quotidian experiences of battle, which is probably, as a Hoplologist, what you are more interested in Bruce.

b

Bruce Mitchell
3rd February 2006, 18:46
Zen Buddhism seems to have neatly served a purpose here, as you rightly characterise, by aiding focus and perhaps also helping to "debrief" battlefield stress. But I believe it also helped *shape* thinking about death, and not just thinking but cultural norms about what constituted a "good" death, a "kakoi" death. The tales of how particularly monks faced their own deaths were widely disseminated in anthologies dating back to Sung China, and these must have served as a model for expected behaviour. An ideal for sure, that doesn't record the quotidian experiences of battle, which is probably, as a Hoplologist, what you are more interested in Bruce.

b

Great reply, thanks. What you have to say here makes a lot of sense. Erasmus' second rule is "Act upon your faith. Even if you must undergo the loss of everything." (Enchridion Militis Christiani: A Guide for the rightous protector, by Erasmus, 1503). Military men have thought alike across the centuries.

gyrfalcon
9th February 2006, 07:43
I'd like to chime in here with some physiological stuff; my background is in neuroscience, and I feel that much of that has strong implications for explaining the more traditionally "spiritual" phenomena that we see in martial arts.

For instance: There are many studies about stress and memory; the basic conclusion being that stress impairs recall of certain things and working memory. What does that mean? It means that people freeze, they get stage fright and mind-blanks. It also means that they can't think about as many things at once, their ability to multitask and remember what just happened is impaired.

Another thing: Mental context of how you view the scene is extremely important towards what your emotional response is. Put yourself in a place that is normally associated with being adrenalized and you may find yourself getting excited, even if there is nothing to get excited about. Picture yourself on an empty stage, or walking through an empty stadium. What Zen practice might, MIGHT, give the warrior, is a way of changing the context in which he views the battlefield. One could call it similar to a ritual that endows confidence and calmness, much like Crusaders crossing themselves before battle.

I'm not entirely convinced, either, that Zen endows a casualness towards life and death. I think it aims to get you to stop thinking about it, to stop being self-conscious. Why do a lot of basketball pros miss free throws, even when they're perfectly capable of doing it while on the run, from a harder angle? They get nervous and start thinking about it too much. The frontal lobe adds extra signal to the motor cortex that screws them up. This supposedly cavalier attitude towards death is, I feel, in part to stop the flinch reflex. You stop thinking things like "Hmm, this move will take his head, but he's going to get my leg. Is this worthwhile?" Or it could give you the edge in the battlefield equivalent of a game of chicken, where you're headed for ai-uchi but one person ends up flinching because they're thinking too much about not getting hit. The brain ends up trying to send two simultaneous signals--the "kill them" and the "save me" signals, and when that happens, your body locks up. That, I think, is what they mean by clearing your mind, not caring about death, and not letting your mind get clouded.

On a seperate note, I'm not too clear on the historical aspects of religion and the samurai. I'm surprised, though, that the idea of the warrior sage/poet has not been brought up. Looking at the myths and stories that are put forth as heroic sagas is very useful for understanding what people were trying to emulate. Samurai kids were raised on these stories of warriors reciting beautiful poetry in the midst of battle, and people dying for abstractions of honor. Somewhere in this you have the idea of the samurai as not just a warrior, but also a classical scholar. You get people falling in love with the idea of the fury of the battlefield and the calm meditation on the mountaintop. Many of the Chinese classics, such as Three Kingdoms and Marsh Chronicles, have powerful warriors who are also highly educated. Think of the contrast given between Lu Bu and Guan Yu--the former is the strongest warrior in all of China, but ultimately comes to a bad end because he is of a traitorous disposition. Guan Yu is a hero, not just for his strength of his polearm, but for the strength of his beliefs as well. I think the ideal of the warrior-sage might be one to think about.

Oh, and on a completely speculative note, many schools were founded by someone who went up on a mountain, meditated, and had a flash of [gods given] insight and went on to achieve greatness. Given Zen's intuitive emphasis, I wonder if that might have also influenced their attitudes towards Zen.

Bruce Mitchell
9th February 2006, 23:00
Hi Yulin,
Nice to see you posting here. Please say hello to everyone at the dojo for me.

In On Combat Lt. Col. Dave Grossman addresses many of the elements that you mention (specifically in Chap. 4 "Memory loss, memory distortions, and the role of videotaping" and in Chap. 5 "The Klinger Study, a parallel Study in Perceptual Disorders"). I would also recommend books by Loren Christensen and Bruce Siddle to anyone who is interested in this topic. However, it is my understanding that specificity in training is the most important element in overcoming these elements before, during, or after combat. Zen training, no matter how severe, does not ellicite the same stress response, and therefore would be ineffective at inoculating against the stress of combat. A couple of other authors who will give you the straight dope on training methods without all of the science are Marc "Animal" MacYoung, and Peyton Quinn.

In reference to the Crusaders, I would bring up the point that the samurai were much more likely to engage in esoteric mikkyo practices, such as using mudra before a battle then they would be to "get Zen".

As far as the warrior-sage-poet thing, my understanding is that for the most part those accouints are ficticious. Many of our Vietnam era soldiers grew up watching John Wayne, but that image has actually done more harm to veterens then good (after all, John Wayne never lost control of his bowels, but it an extremely common combat stress response).

Lastly, many schools were founded by people who then followed tradition and dutifully reported that they went up on a mountain and partied with the gods. My understanding is that this was the standard form of writing down the history of your art.

Great post Yulin, I look forward to what else you may have to add. Also please correct me if I am off base on any of this, my studies are all informal :) .

ichibyoshi
10th February 2006, 01:48
...However, it is my understanding that specificity in training is the most important element in overcoming these elements before, during, or after combat. Zen training, no matter how severe, does not ellicite the same stress response, and therefore would be ineffective at inoculating against the stress of combat...

(snip)

... I would bring up the point that the samurai were much more likely to engage in esoteric mikkyo practices, such as using mudra before a battle then they would be to "get Zen".


Hi Bruce,

Of course you need to train in a specific discipline to be able to use it in combat, but IMHO to be able to say "Zen training, no matter how severe, does not ellicite the same stress response" you personally need to have practiced Zen and then found it wanting in battle. There are some very candid and undoubtedly real descriptions of Zen practice where the practitioner was taken to the limit (and beyond) of their physical and psychic endurance. Try sitting in full-lotus for 30 minutes then consider doing this 20 hours a day for one week during tangaryo (admission test for entry into monastery).

My point is not that anyone who practices Zen to this extent this would instantly make a great warrior, but simply that they would have a different attitude to their own body's mortality to someone who hadn't. They might even not exhibit the same stress responses as a non-practitioner in any given stress situation. I personally believe that Zen practice has the ability to "rewire" the brain in certain ways (see James H. Austin's "Zen and the Brain").

Your second point, which I don't dispute could well be true (who can really know?) can I believe be traced back to a comment Otake sensei of TSKSR made about Mikkyo in the BBC documentary "The Way of the Warrior". His comment was undoubtedly coloured by the fact that he himself is a Mikkyo adept. His full comment was to point out the fact that he felt Zen takes too much time, and that a samurai would be more interested in training in their fighting art, and then use techniques like those in Mikkyo which are more portable and momentary.

I think the big cross-over between Zen and swordsmanship is that both focus on jiriki (self-power) rather than tariki (other-power). IOW you rely on yourself and the quality of your training, rather than asking for intercession from a god, buddha, amulet, charm, etc. This is reflected in Musashi's famous admonition to pay respects to the gods and buddhas, but don't rely on them.

b :)

gyrfalcon
10th February 2006, 03:35
It's good to be posting, Bruce, and to hear from you. :)



However, it is my understanding that specificity in training is the most important element in overcoming these elements before, during, or after combat. Zen training, no matter how severe, does not ellicite the same stress response, and therefore would be ineffective at inoculating against the stress of combat.


It's not so much about eliciting the same stress response, it's about learning to suppress the stress response. I'm going to go on a line here--I'm not sure how similar the stress and drug addiction paradigms are, but I think there's reasons to think that similar mechanisms may exist.

When your brain chemistry is off-balanced somehow, the brain induces mechanisms to cope. In situations where you have a sudden overflow, the brain learns to squash that overflow and reduce the effect. The reason why many drug addicts tend to overdose in hotel rooms is that the brain is used to squashing the effects of the drug in a familiar setting, so the addict gradually learns to up the dose. Once in an unfamiliar setting, though, the brain doesn't squash the effects, so the brain is unprepared for the large dose it gets. This is a very simplified eplanation for brevity; if you're confused, let me know and I'll try to expand the analogy.

In any case, I think that many of the mechanisms of Zen may be useful for helping to squash the reflexive muscle tension and other physiological effects of stress. What specificity of training does is that it tries to make the battlefield a familiar environment, so as to head off some of the stress reflexes. Zen MAY do something similar, or the mudra.

Actually, now that I think about it, I'm probably approaching this from the wrong direction. Perhaps Zen's contribution to the warrior is less during actual combat, but prior to combat. After all, both sides usually had a sizeable wait before battle was actually joined. You spent a fair amount of time just standing there waiting for your turn to get involved. Perhaps Zen's contribution would be in helping the warrior get through that part of the battle, to relax and ignore discomforts brought on by their armor. Sitting Zazen never really gets comfortable, but Zen practitioners learn to ignore that distraction. Trying to get into a calm mindset and ignoring that sweaty itchy spot in the middle of your back while watching the enemy cavalry form up to charge at you can't be an easy thing. To have learned to be able to "switch on" a calm state of mind could be of very practical importance.



As far as the warrior-sage-poet thing, my understanding is that for the most part those accouints are ficticious. Many of our Vietnam era soldiers grew up watching John Wayne, but that image has actually done more harm to veterens then good (after all, John Wayne never lost control of his bowels, but it an extremely common combat stress response).


I agree, many of the accounts are fictitious; it was never my point to say that they were real. But in much the way that the King Arthur legends may have shaped the medieval knight, or the Horatio Alger stories influenced turn of the century Americans, the myth of the warrior-poet-sage may have influenced the samurai. They may have come to Zen because it seemed like the appropriate next step in their development as a human being. Much like a wealthy businessman turning philanthropist, or something along those lines.

In any case, much of this is entirely speculative, and can probably never be proven. It's difficult to resolve this issue, given that we have an entire country of people and at least 400 years of history to try to generalize in. It seems clear to me that at some level, Zen and martial arts have been connected, especially by some of the more famous historical figures, like Takuan and Musashi.

It also seems to me that this discussion could be split into two questions, rather than one:
What is the historical relationship between Zen and martial arts?
How applicable/necessary is Zen to combat in a battlefield context?

ichibyoshi
10th February 2006, 04:40
...
It also seems to me that this discussion could be split into two questions, rather than one:
What is the historical relationship between Zen and martial arts?
How applicable/necessary is Zen to combat in a battlefield context?...

Hi there Yulin,

Your first question is not really the best question to ask in this case as it has been amply discussed elsewhere. If you feel like you need to get up to speed on this topic, try searching for a good bibliography on the net.

The answer to the second question about necessity is undoubtedly that it is not at all necessary. Re applicability, I think this, like a lot of the rest of the speculation in this thread will never be something most of us can answer. We can explain why and how each of us believe it to be true or likely, but no-one can objectively prove one POV over another. This is also due to the fact of it being to do with the subjective experience of phenomena, as much as that most of have never experienced battlefield stress (or rigourous Zen training).

Ironically the experience of battle must be a lot like the experience of kensho ("enlightenment"). Before you've had it, you can't talk about it. After you've had it, you can't describe it. Please note I have not experienced either, and so am talking from a position of ignorance on both. Which makes me the definition of an idiot!

b

gyrfalcon
10th February 2006, 06:35
Your first question is not really the best question to ask in this case as it has been amply discussed elsewhere. If you feel like you need to get up to speed on this topic, try searching for a good bibliography on the net.

Heh, I'm sorry, I wasn't really asking the question. I was merely suggesting a way of organizing the discussion that's already been going on in this thread, in order to make it a little more distinct. Half of it seems to be dealing with the historical connection (i.e., did your typical samurai see a connectio between Zen and budo?). The other half dealt speculatively with a possible role for Zen in martial arts training. I feel as if half the time, someone's responding to another person's historical stance with a theoretical stance, and vice versa.

To address your second point, though, I'm not sure that a discussion of the "experience of battle" requires that experience, any more than a psychologist needs to be manic-depressive in order to have a potent understanding of it.

Though I suppose a logical extension of that predicts that someone who has experienced battle doesn't necessarily have an understanding of that experience. Which does make sense, considering how much difficulty combat veterans often have in reconciling their wartime experiences with peacetime life.

I guess that gets us back to Zen as a coping mechanism.

Bruce Mitchell
11th February 2006, 07:20
Hi Bruce,

Of course you need to train in a specific discipline to be able to use it in combat, but IMHO to be able to say "Zen training, no matter how severe, does not ellicite the same stress response" you personally need to have practiced Zen and then found it wanting in battle. There are some very candid and undoubtedly real descriptions of Zen practice where the practitioner was taken to the limit (and beyond) of their physical and psychic endurance. Try sitting in full-lotus for 30 minutes then consider doing this 20 hours a day for one week during tangaryo (admission test for entry into monastery).
b :)

Ben, I am not trying to be dismissive of Zen training here, but I do not need to directly experience something in order to study it. I understand that this is what much of the whole Zen thing is about (i.e. direct experience). But the body's response to stress has been, and is currently being studied extensively by the military and law enforcement agencies. Of course the type of intense sitting that you are describing would induce stress. And there may be some overlap, but person to person conflict elicites specific physiological and psychological responses from the body. The US military has spent decades trying to determine how best to cope with this. To date, stress inoculation through combat simulation has been the most effective method. This is why you see kata as the primary training methodology in the koryu, because the kata were engineered to recreate the psychological experience of combat.

Other methods of trying to replicate combat stress are less effective, because the stress response of the body is different. To use an example from Col. Grossman's book, if you try to use exercise to raise the heartbeat to the same range as has been measured in combat stress, the body becomes flushed (i.e. you get red in the face)because your body is working to pump blood to your extremities. Under conditions of combat stress, your body shunts blood away from your extremities and concentrates it within the body cavity. This is why people get "white faced" with fear. I know that this is maybe not the best example, but I do know that the military has tried meditation as a technique for soldiers, but you pretty much see those programs get dropped.

My original intention when starting this thread was to try to look for answers to this question through historical examples (mostly since I neither want to sit Zazen and be involved in mortal combat). I do believe there is a link, but I'm not taking anything on faith. I am enjoying your post, and am learning a lot from them, but I don't buy the experiental arguement. What I would really love to hear about are recorded examples of relationships between zen adepts and warriors (like the Yagyu letters).

renfield_kuroda
12th February 2006, 01:12
What I would really love to hear about are recorded examples of relationships between zen adepts and warriors (like the Yagyu letters).
A good source for that, unfortunately in Japanese only, is Omori Sogen's "Ken to zen". He has a chapter each on many significant sword practitioners with significant links to zen, including the founder of Mugairyu, Tsuji Gettan, who is probably one of the most famous kenshi AND zen priests.

Regards,

r e n

Bruce Mitchell
19th February 2006, 20:21
I have been rereading the post in this thread and re-thinking my postion. I am coming to the conclusion that Zen can be a useful tool in attaining a strong psychological grounding for dealing with all aspects of combat stress (otherwise it would have been rejected by warriors of old). That said, my question now is, Is it the most efficient way to inocculate a warrior agains combat stress? If you only have a couple of months (or even a couple of years) to train someone before they are going to have to be in harms way, then would you be better off with hsome other form of training. For instance , training in kata (there is a really good article in Sword & Spirit, Ed. by Diane Skoss titled "Kabala in Motion:Kata and Pattern Practice in the Traditional Bugei", by Karl Friday). So if you are a budo hobbyist (as most of us are) it would be okay to take on a protracted course of training like Zen meditation to enhance or supplement your martial arts training. However, if you are looking for practical self defense, or are a soldier or law enforcement officer, then you might need something that yields quicker results like kata training, or combat simulation.