Conch Horn

[matt henseler]

I know this is probably a stretch to place this in the Koryu board, but I don't know where else to ask.

Does anyone here have any information about the traditional Japanese conch horn? I believe there is some koryu style that still teaches their use, along with sword or some weapon, I can't remember.

Any help?

[Ben Bartlett]

I don't know much about it, but I think Hyakutake-san may be playing one in the photograph on this page, along with some information on how it's used in one of the ryu he's a member of:

http://www.hyoho.com/Nkage1.html

[nicojo]

They are called horugai and were used for a variety of purposes including military uses like calling troops into battle and ceremonial uses like opening a festival. Lots of pacific islanders use them for these things as well. One of my friends who studies koryu and owns a couple says he read that lower-pitched tones were used before a battle to intimidate (think the horns at Helm's Deep from LOTR ;)) and higher pitched ones to send messages during a battle as their tones would carry over the noisy mess. But he wasn't sure about this, so who knows. He has three or four from various times and with various pitches.

Sometimes you can still find them in shops, but I won't tell you where, because I want one too! :p

I found this page from a brief google search and know nothing about it, but at the bottom there is a scanned pic of a ukiyo-e with a samurai using one: link (http://9waysmysteryschool.tripod.com/sacredsoundtools/id2.html) As you will find out, the shells have a buddhist connection and you can find small ones used as implements.

Here's a page from Osprey Publications (http://www.ospreysamurai.com/communications.html) (Steven Turnbull...).

Can't find one for sale just now, may post a pic of authentic one from a book I have sometime...

As far as being taught usage in a koryu, well, that's beyond my knowledge.

[hyaku]

Horagai is the Japanese word for Conch. The instrument is a Jingai. Its also used by the Yamabushi. My connection is through the Honzan Shugenshu sect. They were also used to keep group contact over the mountains as well as in battle

Only three tones used and they are not blown or held like a traditional instrument. There are set ceremonial sounds to be made at shrines and temples.

Generally "very" expensive if you want a big old one that has good resonance. Big ones are very old and also very thick. But here in the Phillipines they eat them and throw the shells away down South. Cheap but there are rather large posters at airports forbidding export.

[matt henseler]

Thank you for the information. One related question then; do the horns make use of a metal mouthpiece? Or does one blow directly into a hole in the shell.

[Richie112]

Originally posted by hyaku
here in the Phillipines
????
Have you left Japan? or are you there teaching/holiday?

[Blackwood]

My Boy Scout troop used to use one to call the troop together. We liked it because it was unique, and we didn't have to try an figure out which whistle was ours.

The 'tip' of the shell was knocked off, making an almost perfect mouthpiece very much like a typical brass.

[hyaku]

Mouthpiece is generally wood. The inside needs to be opened up until you get the right sound sound. Mine is laquered. A peculiarity is its held tight to the corner of the mouth, not to the side.

Richie.... Yes I am still here in 28 degress of sun and beach. Practice is in early mornings and evenings. Five days to go.

[Vile]

Here's a small clip of jingai playing. It was recorded about a year ago when I was invited to friend's house for New Year's dinner. I've forgotten the name of this beautiful shrine/temple dedicated to Fudô Myôô. It is located in Chiba about an hour (IIRC) from the ocean.

A long time ago the location used to be right on the ocean side and the rocks are carved beautifully by the waves. I'll check some details about the place later when I have time, if somebody's interested.

http://people.cc.jyu.fi/~mijuvi/jingai/jingai.avi

[Baio]

I have a friend in Guam who might be able to get the shells if you have specifics about them give me a pm and I can see what he can do for you.

[niten ninja]

How complex a tune can be played on one?

[Richard Elias]

To whom it may concern...

http://cgi.ebay.com/po-edo-JP-Modern-Horagai-Trumpet-UNIQUE-6302_W0QQitemZ7343873206QQcategoryZ73466QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[hyaku]

Wow that's cheap. But it might be a small one. Bigger ones are very old.
A good one will set you back 100,000 yen in Japan. Problem is it's a banned import. I am on my second. The first one was too too thick and had no resonance

Apparently one can find lots down South in Zamboonga (Philippines) piled up after people eat the contents. One can also find the Abu Sayad Islamic Liberation army down there too!

There are basicaly three pitches used. One can roll smoothly from one pitch to the next with practice. Formerly these three are used in a short composition called So makuri for shrine and temple functions.

[Mekugi]

There are also ryu of Shugendo and Shinto that use the conch in their rituals. One that comes to mind goes up to Mt. Ontake every year, and every 30 minutes up the mountain you can hear them bellow.



I know this is probably a stretch to place this in the Koryu board, but I don't know where else to ask.

Does anyone here have any information about the traditional Japanese conch horn? I believe there is some koryu style that still teaches their use, along with sword or some weapon, I can't remember.

Any help?

[hyaku]

There are also ryu of Shugendo and Shinto that use the conch in their rituals.

So-Makuri is Honzan Shugenshu.

[Mekugi]

Aha!
So, Mountain Shugendo training is part of the traditions you do?

Very sweet.



So-Makuri is Honzan Shugenshu.

[Max Chouinard]

http://www.conchking.com/Large-Triton-Horns.htm

Wouldn't that be a good place to get one? Doesn't seem to have a wooden mouthpiece though, just a brass one.

[Nathan Scott]

The only ryu-ha in my notes that I have written down as currently practicing/specializing in jingaijutsu is Takeda-ryu Jingaijutsu ( 武田流 陣螺術 )There are probably others, and I'm not sure if this is the same Takeda-ryu group off the top of my head as the Takeda-ryu kyubajutsu in Kyushu. If someone is seriously interested in travelling to Japan to train I could look it up.

Obata Toshishiro Sensei has a nice horagai which he has used a few times for various things, including one of his dojo openings. Pretty cool.

Regards,

[hyaku]

Yes its a Horagai (Tritons trumpet conch) But as an instrument its called a Jingai.

As I said they are protected species. You might be able to buy one but getting it in could prove difficult. Big ones take years to grow. Better still its one of the few species that kills and eats the crown of thorns starfish.

http://www.bohol.ph/pics/large/tritoncrown.jpg

The biggest group of players and my Horashi Jingai teacher are Yamabushi.

[Richard Elias]

Another one on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Japanese-Buddhist-Mountain-Monk-HORAGAI-Trumpet-Shell_W0QQitemZ7364372737QQcategoryZ73466QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[hyaku]

Mmm looks fairly big. Mouthpiece is a strange shape. they have already done the fobidden thing by placing it with the hole downwards. The yamabushi would have fit if they saw it a deem it unlucky.

[Richard Elias]

http://cgi.ebay.com/SAMURAI-Conch-shell-Japanese_W0QQitemZ290012741884QQihZ019QQcategoryZ73466QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem