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John Lindsey
14th November 2000, 04:19
Maybe I am too much of a traditionalist, but I have noticed that some public demonstrations of Japanese martial arts in the West seem to have degraded into forms of pure public entertainment. They often seem more like a well choreographed music video rather than the more solemn affairs that I see as the more traditional form. Obviously these modern demos are designed to appeal to the crowd, but was that the original purpose of them? I have heard it said that in Japan, public demos are often given not so much for the public, but in recognition of the tradition, the past masters and deities associated with the art.

Anyone else get bothered by this or think it is part of the adaptation of the art in the West?

MarkF
14th November 2000, 07:45
John,
I suppose it matters which MA, as well. I've seen, as of the last few years, aikido and karate demos and are pretty much as you've described them, particularly aikido. Most karate demos are exactly what you would expect thus, I don't go on purpose, but I do run in to the mall-type and are entertaining, but the general wa is terrible.

Aikido is great fun to watch. It is one of the nicer, soft forms of MA, but there seems to be a great deal of, well, snobbery. This is not, certainly, aikido itself (see karate), but you wouldn't think of it this way. It seems the style also makes a difference. I like aikido, and what little I know, I get from shodokan stylists, and most seem very open and willing to discuss technique and how some waza would fit into what one does.

But others seem to have found God, and think aikido is the only way to get there. Bring up judo and Tomiki, the whining is amazing. Certainly I have spoken with the wrong people and I'm not out to "get" anyone. It just has happened that way.

Judo demos are called shiai. Once in a while, I get calls from some who are putting on demos from differing styles, but mostly, the shiai is a good time to emphasize that it is also going to be a demonstration.

But yes, this ain't the sixties anymore.:smokin:

Times, they are a'changin' (with apologies to Bob Dylan).

Mark

Rolling Elbow
14th November 2000, 15:32
And people wonder why we have star spangled banner gi's and head-bands, 20 patches per gi, and allot of yelling. It is pure and utter crap. Do we feel the need to entertain others with loud music, light shows and flashy stupid moves which half the time the practioners don't pull off, but the Uke falls anyway?! NO WE DO NOT.

This theater is not necessary, and it does no reflect the raw beauty of natural martial arts..chinese,japanese,russian etc.. the best setting is where practioners interact with audience and talk principles. Demonstrations are intended to show how the art moves, and shoul not focus entirely on fancy kicks and kiai..it is a demonstration of natural movement and combat. Taking a bunch of Shodans and throwing them on stage to show defense n# 6 - everyone at the same time, or lets do katas at the same time and back flips etc..,is not a real demonstration. And it really ticks me off.

everything is flashy, the beauty of natural movement and sound principles of combat are being lost to people who think that speed, throwing in as many turns as possible (bussey)and multiple leaping kicks is the way to go. Aikido people dancing instead of throwing each other around without mercy, karate men breaking 100 boards in such and such a time. Where are these arts going to. I for one have decided that should I ever teach, I will teach and practice the art as it was intended to be used. Given the sad state of MA today and how people view it, many of us will also have to be ready to take on the responsibility of historians... Keeping true traditions and combat traditions alive before they are eaten up by a Coca-cola machine and spit out as 5th rate Tae Bo..or the winning foundation of "New York State's 3 time forms champion". It makes me sick to my stomach..

For anyone who is from Canada and trains with Therien Jujutsu...what are your people thinking? Anymore lights,stage, and sound effects and your show will be the second best CONCERT I've ever been too. The first being Iron Maiden of course! What a joke..

wanax
14th November 2000, 15:54
Yes, and probably everyone complaining at the moment about the good old days is, like me, slowly turning into a decrepid old fart. I'm sure Lindsey is. Dare I say that demo degradation = budo degradation, or will I be torn to pieces by those under 30?

Rolling Elbow
14th November 2000, 17:08
Absolutely not, I am 24 and couldn't agree more. Just as we watch the changing of the guard and keep some traditions rooted in British Imperialism/colonization.., martial tradition and presentation is important. What they have done here is degragated the whole thing...how you can take something so sacred that was passed on to you and turn it into a farse is beyond shameful.

wanax
14th November 2000, 20:14
Michael, it's the Ferengi! We have been secretly conquered by those nasty little aliens for whom profit is all. They began by taking all currencies off the gold standard, so that money could be simply an equation (and hence profit oriented), and are slowly turning on to everything else. Martial arts was on their list, hence the hoola-hoop shows at martial arts demonstrations. I hear that they are planning to take gendai budo arts onto the Dow-Jones within a few months, followed by koryu arts in 2002 or 2003.

Seriously though, the degradation of martial arts is just one more symptom in a very sick world that has lost almost everything pure and real. Jacques Cousteau's last words before he died, after spending a lifetime fighting for the seas, were: "there is no hope."

My, I'm in a cheerful mood tonight. Let's not have any more discussions like this.

Rolling Elbow
14th November 2000, 22:01
Wanax,

On a side note, what styles of kungfu have you studied? How have you found their study and application with respect to your taijutsu? Advantages, disadvantages, strengths in areas or weaknesses in others? Would be interesting to hear.

It requires a deeper study of things but is nonetheless more "Cheerful" then talking about martial arts demonstrations!

wanax
15th November 2000, 07:39
Rolling elbow, that question requires a long answer and I hope you'll allow me to defer until such time as I have the time and am in the mood. I'll say this in short: that I have been fortunate in that what I've studied has tied in completely with taijutsu to such an extent where it is impossible to determine where one ends and the other begins. Hence my obstinate insistence that Takamatsu studied Chinese martial arts and created the unconfirmable ryu-ha as a means of passing this knowledge into Japan. Good for him in my book.

Neil Yamamoto
15th November 2000, 07:45
In the old days, the sensei were tough man! I remember my sensei taking out his dentures before class and demos just so he wouldn't pull a Mike Tyson and bite your ear off in randori. You might get gummed a bit, but that was good for you, made you tough. Nowadays, I gum the students on the ear a bit and they start screaming and crying. Damn woosies! Heck, they can't even walk in a hakama and eat a rice ball at the same time, kids these days.

Back on topic. Seriously, I think most of the demos I have seen in the last few years were pretty lame. I won't take part in them and what I see makes me wonder about the schools that present them and if they really think about what they do.

At best, they are funny. At worst, pathetic. I can recall a few good demos that stand out. One in particular was Nakamura Sensei doing a tamishigiri demo many years ago at the Seattle Cherry blossom festival. Most everything else pales in comparison.

My personal opinion is a demo will suck if the people suck. Even some of the Japanese demos for special occasions were pretty funny in how bad they were. But here in the US it seems demos have become more of a way to make some money by drawing in new students. Let the buyer beware I guess.

MarkF
15th November 2000, 08:57
Wanax and Rolling Elbow,
If you are going to take this into a discussion of Ninpo, take it to those threads. I am sure you will get more responses there.

That said, not all demos are "crap." If you really want to see a good demo or shiai, go to a kendo event. I have never been to a bad one. Not only is the technque explained in lay terms, but the overall beauty of it is the definition of wa.

Judo demos done at shiai are also well done, in most cases. Many times people doing other arts are also invited, and most are not advertised in a commercial medium. Generally, these events are listed in the "Metro" section of hometown newspapers as "what to do."

What do you mean by "old farts?" John Lindsey is in the same decade of age I am, but he is still nine years or so younger than me.:burnup:

Mark

wanax
15th November 2000, 13:39
MarkF, we are not going to get into a discussion on ninpo which is why I cut it short. As far as demos, I think you will agree that the good ones are becoming more and more scarce as tradition pales before advertising. I did judo in the seventies (yes, yes, budoka mellow with age like a fine wine) but couldn't help wondering just what the hell was going on when I saw the Olympics this year. It appears that groundwork, which was once the forte of the sport, has been discouraged and or eliminated? And some of the throws, for which I would have given a yuko, were graded at ippon? Things are changing indeed, and the degradation is not limited to demos.
As far as Lindsey is concerned, no need to worry. He was an old fart when he was in his twenties.

MarkF
16th November 2000, 09:00
Agreed, politics will always get in the way in the international arena, and I agree in general about Olympic judo, particularly in the area of new rules.

While passivity penalties were given on a massive scale, and one koka to nothing were common results, there was certainly less bad waza being called Ippon, and if you look at the results of ippon by osaekomiwaza, there were more medals won by ground techniques by the Japanese than were won in all of 1996. Overall, groundwork on the whole has been nearly absent, with some actually refusing to fight anywhere near the ground, even when called for passivity. One gold was won by keikoku (penalty equal to wazaari).

But this says nothing of judo, it only says what the IOC wants it to say. The fault lies somewhere else, and not all judo is done in shiai, but randori no kata certainly has its place.

Recently, there has been a resurgence of kata in dojo, with an exploration of the founders and "whole judo." Shiai today, more often than not, generally has demonstrations of nage no kata, kime no kata, and with a new interest in atemiwaza, kata ate, etc. The Olympics is for winning, but contests were never about winning/losing. Apparently, some do stick around to see what there is to offer, and samples can be found in most judo texts, including Kodokan Judo.

I competed from the early sixties until the early eighties, and changes there were, but not to the extent assumed by the general budo community. If assumptions weren't made with a steel trap door, it wouldn't take much for those who bitterly condemn judo, to find volumes written and still taught, including ko shiki no kata, or waza done kumi uchi.

There is a "secret" within judo. Most don't know, and that is the reason for secrecy. If one should stay around for the long haul, I should think what is sought was right there to begin with.

Farts may indeed be old, but old ideas are like new ones. The aroma is there for a short while and may be followed, but soon it is gone, leaving one to guess which path to follow. I've found both are possible with just a bit of backtracking.;)

Mark

Margaret Lo
20th November 2000, 15:57
Originally posted by John Lindsey
Maybe I am too much of a traditionalist, but I have noticed that some public demonstrations of Japanese martial arts in the West seem to have degraded into forms of pure public entertainment. They often seem more like a well choreographed music video rather than the more solemn affairs that I see as the more traditional form. Obviously these modern demos are designed to appeal to the crowd, but was that the original purpose of them?

Anyone else get bothered by this or think it is part of the adaptation of the art in the West?


John - I think commercial clubs will inevitably resort to the flash since their goal is usually cash. There is no hope for them, they are just for baby sitting and entertainment.

The trick is for traditionalists to do their demonstrations without feeling like they have to cater to the audience. This desire to keep up with the flashier styles seems to be the trap that some of the arts have fallen into.

The next trick is to find the correct audience for one's art, otherwise its just a waste of time. Educational institutions are, I think, the best places to go because they are already filled with people who think basics for 15 years is barely enough.

While most karate demos are prone to cheese, all demos I have participated in have been no more or less than a condensed version of a typical class with explanations thrown in for kihon, kumite and kata.

When the audience asks about breaking bricks, my usual response is: better to dodge one don't you think? :)

M

PS - by "commercial" I do not mean to include all clubs which may be for profit enterprises, rather, I am using this term in a casual way to refer to all clubs whose purpose is to be profitable over all other goals.

[Edited by Margaret Lo on 11-20-2000 at 10:14 AM]

Darren Yeow
3rd December 2000, 07:24
Hi everyone,

I live in Australia, and I've never been to the Americas or other places where most of you seem to be from, but from what I've, read demonstrations seem to happen quite regularly over there, and sound really comercialised or something akin.

Here in Oz, demonstrations are really a rare thing indeed, and I can say that I've only seen two, and demonstrated in one (Taekwondo - five years ago). I think we all have to remember that really, nowadays demonstrations are really MA equivalent of advertising for a club/dojo. I can personally say that of the two that I saw (Taekwondo and Shotokan Karate), they both were done in pretty similar fashion, in that they seemed to be condensed training sessions with just abit of board and tile breaking. They were also done in a really serious way and I guess it acurately protrayed what it would be like if you joined, nothing at all like what a majority of them sound like in the places you guys are from.

I guess the attitudes are different between countries, with less overall competition for students between clubs (relatively low no. of MA clubs), and so it's more like "if they want to have a look at our MA, they can come to our dojo/training hall/etc"

One thing I've definitely never seen, and most likely never will see is an Aikido or Kendo demonstration, most probably because the best ryus are based more on the love of the art and love of imparting such knowledge and so they don't really strive for a profit, which in turn means fees are very low (my Kendo ryu charges A$60 a year, which include a shinai, and the armour is rented at A$50/year), and hence demonstrations are not really nessesary, as most are now seen as free advertising. At least thats the way it is with my aikido and kendo ryu. I hope that demonstrations in Australia never become commonplace, flashy, laughable showpieces it seems to have become in other places, or they'll lose their special attraction - as seeing too much of something, will result in a person no longer seeing it.

DY

MarkF
3rd December 2000, 11:43
Kendo almost always has great events, when they have them. As to tournaments, here too, the wa is outstanding.

Mark

Jeff
6th December 2000, 18:30
Hello all, I am fairly new to the forum! I reside in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada and study Yoseikan Budo Aikido.
My thoughts on demonstrations touch on a basic principle. Quality should always come before Quantity. However, in the Western World we are too preoccupied by how much money one can accumulate in a lifetime rather than focussing on much more important details.
There will always be some type of cultural assimilation when the West absorbs an external culture. I would hope that our positive attributes would reflect in this adoption rather than the negative.
In the end it comes down to the purpose of the organization demonstrating its MA. To create awareness, or profit!
Thank you for your attention.

Doug Daulton
6th December 2000, 19:21
Originally posted by John Lindsey .... Maybe I am too much of a traditionalist, but I have noticed that some public demonstrations of Japanese martial arts in the West seem to have degraded into forms of pure public entertainment. They often seem more like a well choreographed music video rather than the more solemn affairs that I see as the more traditional form. Obviously these modern demos are designed to appeal to the crowd, but was that the original purpose of them? I have heard it said that in Japan, public demos are often given not so much for the public, but in recognition of the tradition, the past masters and deities associated with the art.

Anyone else get bothered by this or think it is part of the adaptation of the art in the West?I think you are pretty much correct John.

The "flash-n-trash" demo emphasize style or substance to get people in the door. IMO, this is due in large part to the desensitization of the public to sensationalism. (Does that make sense?) I remember the first demo I ever saw. It was very simple and austere ... but not artificially so. Students did kihon, then kata. Then the man who would later be my teacher came up and did a kata ... that got my attention. Next he and a senior student did some partner drills, finally he did tameshigiri ... 6 boards, no spacers. The entire time it was very quiet (except for the kiai) and matter of fact. I walked away very impressed and with a strong notion that this was serious business ... not dance-sport in gi. (Apologies to dancers ... I know dance is tremendously hard work for the serious student as well)

I saw other demos before I eventually started my practice, but none stuck with me as much. Since then, I've participated in and lead demos of my own. For the most part they've mostly followed the same model. On occasion, our group would participate in a larger demo and I often saw some of the disturbing trends you've outlined. It is indeed sad.


Originally posted by Kostas (Chuck) Dervenis .... Yes, and probably everyone complaining at the moment about the good old days is, like me, slowly turning into a decrepid old fart. I'm sure Lindsey is. Dare I say that demo degradation = budo degradation, or will I be torn to pieces by those under 30? I am not quite an old fart, nor am I in my 20's. But I quite agree. I think the standards for public presentation of budo have suffered considerably.


Originally posted by Jim Kass .... Now comes the typical demo in the USA to promote the opening of a new Mc Dojo(flyer stuck under your windshield wipper). Flyer claims Master X has just returned from extensive studies elsewhere and will perform at the local Mall. A star spangled, red gi, 37 patches, 25 year old Okey Dokey Soke, 8th Dan, ko-rot-y expert with Chinese swords dangerously demonstrating Japanese Koryu techiques to the LOUD background sound of "Born In America". The special this week ONLY, free gi when you sign up for 6 months @ the low low cost of $99.99/month.

Why do you think that most of the people in the USA (don't have a clue), who look at the martial arts today, think all MA are Bull S##t (see "interesting discussion" thread). Mr. Kass:
If you are saying that the standard for embu have not declined in Japan, but in the US ... I'd have to agree as well. In my limited time in Japan, I saw three embu and was considerably impressed by all of them. Unfortunately, I've also seen much of the c**p you've described in the US as well.

In the end, the serious embu is the road less traveled ... at least in the US. All we can do to change that is make sure our embu treat the topic with the respect it deserves.

MarkF
8th December 2000, 07:10
"let any ego be silenced by your example" is what a friend said recently, and if one thinks this way, you shouldn't have to worry too much. The MA club is really for a small number anyway, so not to worry.

That said, these things make "A sucker is born every minute" sound like gospel. If you keep your end up, and treat it tenderly, you just may turn out to be average, or better. Let them make themselves the fool, while the rest patiently train.

Mark

John Lindsey
16th December 2003, 08:50
bump...

Mekugi
16th December 2003, 09:00
The embu is not for the audience: it's for the students, the instructors (dead and alive) and for the beneifit of the group as a whole IMHO.
That being said:
Takeuchi ryu did a little thing at the Budokan last year to music. It was done in full armor, with a sword, to traditonal Japanese music; It was very tasteful and I enjoyed it very much. I suppose it is how one approaches this animal rather than the beast itself. However, thinking back it would have been totally out of place if "Eye of the Tiger" started booming while dancers started swirling around them. :rolleyes:





Originally posted by John Lindsey
They often seem more like a well choreographed music video rather than the more solemn affairs that I see as the more traditional form. Obviously these modern demos are designed to appeal to the crowd, but was that the original purpose of them?

MarkF
16th December 2003, 12:52
Originally posted by John Lindsey
bump...

I assume you witnessed another one, John, as you bumped this thread.

Until, 2001, I hadn't bothered with demos or seminars for twenty years or so, other than those in which I was involved. Even then, it was more to meet the guy/lady teaching it rather than the workout (seminars).

Have you been to a kendo event lately? In the US, they have the best 'wa' of any exhibition of budo I've seen, and they have always been like that. Judo demos are usually good fun, especially when pieces of the entire syllabus are trotted out, or when a beginner slips and lands on his back when attempting a feat of illogical but fun ukemi, but I'd recommend kendo today, over all. Solemn isn't a word I'd use at the good demo, I'd say that to put on a good one may be a happy occasion, though "serious" is a good description. Many times, things do go wrong and one should have the ability to laugh at himself.

I recall many years taking my mother to the mall to shop, and there was an aikido demo going on. She walked up to one participant, felt his sleeve and said "Judogi?" His eyes sparkled and he excitedly said "Yes, yes!" Then, she said "Why not judo, then?" He whined like a spoiled child: "judo's just a sport, judo is not anything like aikido, judo isn't this, it isn't that," et. I still thought it was funny as hell, a bit sad, but it was at the mall so it was ok to be a bit funny.

I was turning purple trying to stifle a laugh, but something like "Yes, it is similar, Ma'am" would have been more appropriate. It was entertaining.

If you are going to do a demo in front of those who haven't ever thought of actually getting involved, one should expect some degree of levity. In front of those, most or all of whom are involved, well that is a much different story. Still, a slip on a banana peel is a slip on a banana peel. It happens in most serious situations, and it does make people feel closer to the demonstrators as ordinary people, not super-human, chi gong 'I'm going to kill you' types.


Mark