Kappo and lawsuits

[kelly p]

Hi everyone - sorry to be absent for so long ( I was a member of the old E-budo before the crash...) I've been at this for 30 years, and was taught kappo from day one. In the old days, (BL,...see below) kappo was done all the time at shiai, and I saw and did my share of knocked out or injured judoka brought about.

but now? Well, sad to say, but in the intervening years, I (gasp) went to law school (BL = before law school), and now practice in Canada (only corporate law, mind you, none of that ambulance stuff...). While the litigation chill in Canada has not been as pronounced as in USA, still, I would personally shudder (not being an MD) at the liability aspects of doing kappo on the mat (having already seen my name on a lawsuit as being a judge in a contest where an injury occurred - the claim being I should have stopped the fight earlier to stop the injury. Settled out of court by the insurers. Still, a sobering experience even for someone in my line of work). Because of this, I have never done, and have not seen, kappo taught in my or other dojo for years.
Any similar experiences?
KP, Sandan.

[kelly p]

Sorry everyone - just realized that I broke protocal by not includign my name -
Kelly Palmer

[John Lindsey]

I once saw a Kito-ryu scroll and it listed Kappo before the kata section. The reason for this was because of the importance of kappo I think.

BTW, welcome back!

[MarkF]

Hi, John, Kelly,
No, I have not been on that end, but my family could have when I broke my ankle in 1964.

It was caused by a bad habit I had in the way I took ukemi. I got into the habit of turning the top foot slightly inward and taking the fall on the ball of my foot. This enabled my to rise faster during randori. It was also stupid.

Funny, though, my teacher and the rest of the class knew something had happened, except me.

Anyway, when my teacher put in the claim, he found out the company had gone bankrupt. He paid for my treatment, no longer charged for my time there, and I later began to teach classes unsupervised. I suppose there could have been a suit, as the orthopod said my foot may not grow anymore, as it was in the "growth center" of my foot/ankle.

So, counsel, what do you think should have been done?:)

While people bring tort cases all the time, I've wondered about that, but since I've had my own dojo, nothing very serious has happened, but maybe I should just shut up and hope for the best. I have good insurance, but you never know. I officiate tournaments locally up to the state level.

Injuries are common on the judo mats.

As to the kito scrolls, that is true, as that was my only experience in koryu jujutsu. Katsu was pretty high in inportance, and the few waza I've learned in judo are a far cry from this.

Here is a case worth discussing, but I don't have the details anymore.

It seems a young girl was refusing to bow to the mat (kamidana) and was disqualified when she refused to either bow to the opponent or the mat. I believe the case was in Washington. The girl's mother was issei, and felt the bowing was a tie to Shinto, and this did end up in court, I think. What do you think of this case? Should the girl be made to bow, or is it too insignificant to make waves?. Apparently, she had been a junior champion in judo of some sort, and had always bowed in the dojo, and to her classmates. At other tournaments, she did bow as well, but this time refused.

Ed?

Mark

BTW: Welcome back from me as well, Kelly!:wave:

[Ryu]

Hi everyone, haven't been here for a while. (Mark I didn't realize it was you on budoseek as well! :) I'm going to be watching ESPN2 like a hawk to see if I can catch any judo at all. I have no problem catching the spring Basho...but for some reason judo slips by me. Thanks for the respones though.)

At the risk of showing my true novice status at the details of judo ettiquete, and terminology...what is Kappo? :D
I've heard the term numerous times, but haven't heard it before since coming to this board.

Thanks :)

Ryu

[MarkF]

Hi, Bill,
Kappo is basically the opposite of Sappo, or katsu jutsu. It is resuscitation techniques.

Sappo is the attack to vital points on the body, so if you can put someone down with Sappo, you should know Kappo as well. You might think of it as resuscitation before Dr. Heimlich made his appearance.

As to its use, I've only seen it once in shiai, and over the years learned about four techniques, not nearly enough. Today, there are many and the Kodokan does teach katsu.

Basic Katsu methods are sasoi-katsu, the inductive method, eri-katsu, the lapel method, so-katsu, a composite of resuscitation of "bad air out, good air in." The manner of doing it is by compression of the diaphragm to assist breathing, the other would be the kidney method or jinzo-katsu, with the same basic technique applied to the middle back, on or near the kidneys, and Kogan-katsu, testicle method, although this is not directly related to actual resuscitation, but is used when a person has had his scrotum kicked up into his pelvis.

There are others, as these methods of katsu have been around since the late eighteenth century. Other than these methods, I don't know, but rescusitation is rarely necessary other than making sure of a clear airway. The scrotum katsu is, well, interesting, but may be caused by some nage waza such as o uchi gari, uchi mata, etc. Mae geri would be another cause.

Wearing of a cup is usually recommended, particularly if doing randori with me.;)

Mark

[Ryu]

AH! Okay, I understand now. Actually I know one very basic measures of recusitation, but was at a loss to the proper terms. Thank you, Mark, for clearing that up. :)
I feel somewhat foolish though hahaha

I've seen kappo done in many judo matches, or BJJ matches if someone is put to sleep.

Learn something new everday :)

Thanks again,

Ryu

[MarkF]

I would think it to be more often used in a BJJ dojo, since submissio is the prime goal, whether one does it by giving, or by, well, not being able. I know it happens more often than I'vs said, I have just not witnessed more than clearinf space on the mat for someone put out with shimewaza, etc.

Mark

[Ryu]

The most interesting thing I think I saw in my BJJ days was when a student popped his shoulder our of its socket (it was an old injury) He stopped immediately, his arm just dangling, and he called for Carlos Machado to help him. The student was going into mild shock it looked like. Carlos placed his shoulder back in its socket (gently).
The student was back later after time off, doctor's supervision, etc. But it really made me think about the knowledge a "martial artist" must have in those kinds of instances. I think the most impressive thing was how Carlos calmed the guy down, and was completely calm the whole way through. Moving the shoulder back into its socket smoothly and effortlessly was neat too :D
I couldn't see everything going on because I was in the back of the room.

Injuries seem to play a big part of the grappling arts, especially judo and BJJ. I, myself, almost suffered a broken elbow when I tried to "tough" my way out of a lock.
It was pretty stupid of me, and "luckily" I only tore some of the ligaments in my left arm :look:

I will tap fast now :D

Ryu

[Steve Williams]

Hi All

We in Shorinji Kempo learn kappo (basic skills) as part of our training (mostly at dan-grade level).

This mainly takes the form of resuscitation at one end and stopping nosebleeds at the other, it also encompasses joint (dislocation) manipulation.

I would add that I have only used it a couple of times in training, for nose-bleeds and worst case, for kinteki-geri (the "victim" was not knocked out, but was definately on his way out, eyes rolling, not coherant etc... [wait, most of my students are like that anyway :laugh: ]).

I have never had to "bring somebody round" who was out cold, but have seen it done at a competition a few years ago. In free-sparring someone got a mawashi geri to the head and promptly crumpled, my instructor was the judge and immediately started to apply kappo, it took about 5 minutes but the student came round and, with the exception of a bad headache, was fine. He was then taken to hospital (precautionary measure) and was found to be fine.

I would say that a basic first-aid knowledge is essential for anybody teaching (not only from a practical viewpoint, but also from a litigation viewpoint).


We are probably quite lucky here (UK) that people do not sue at every opportunity, but if what you are teaching/ showing with regard to resuscitation is not harmful and is, in fact, potentially beneficial then why would people want to consider suing you? (Probably because you are not a registered MD, mind you my experiences with regular, non-specialist, doctors would lead me to trust kappo a lot more :D )

[MarkF]

Hi, Steve,
You asked the million dollar question, literally. Actually, I was interested in what Kelly may have thought. Katsu (kuatsu) are "ancient" techniques which have given way to more accessible types such as those of CPR. Resuscitation can have many meanings, but asking why someon would sue, is the same as "Does your pig fly?"

CPR is most prevelent in a given situation, and, for that reason, I was certified in this manner.

I'm still looking over the kappojutsu (or kuatsu) sent to me by E. Burgess, and I am taking it seriously. So just because there are newer techniques, it shouldn't prevent anyone from learning this jutsu.

They worked once, so I don't see a reason for not doing them.