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View Full Version : Seiza/Rei & Hands question



Okashira
3rd January 2005, 15:54
I was browsing a book earlier and I noticed this picture:

http://www.geocities.com/alcid_nikopol/rei.JPG

I noticed how the fists are closed with the thumb inside of the fist.
I would like some information on the origin of this fist.
e.g. Does it come from yoroi related ryu?

Which ryu have this kind of fist in their reiho?

Any input would be appreciated.



P.S.:Sorry for the abstract subject for this topic but I couldn't think of a better one. :(

Richard Elias
3rd January 2005, 19:00
Interesting…

I don’t know if it’s related to this particular bow, (there are many ways of bowing and it seems almost every school does it a little different) but I have noticed this particular “fist�, with the thumbs tucked in, in a lot of pictures of Japanese martial artists. I always wondered if there was any significance to it.

Mekugi
3rd January 2005, 21:11
Originally posted by Okashira
I was browsing a book earlier and I noticed this picture:

I noticed how the fists are closed with the thumb inside of the fist.
I would like some information on the origin of this fist.
e.g. Does it come from yoroi related ryu?

Which ryu have this kind of fist in their reiho?

Any input would be appreciated.



P.S.:Sorry for the abstract subject for this topic but I couldn't think of a better one. :(

Yagyu Shinkage Ryu.

I know, not what you are looking for.

:p
-Russ

Arman
3rd January 2005, 21:12
Two things:

The bow in the above photograph is, I believe, from Yagyu Shinkage ryu, although there may be many others that utilize it as well.

To Richard's question, there are indeed many photographs of martial artists (and swordsmiths) who are standing with their thumbs tucked into their fists. You can see it in many pictures of Takeda Tokimune and Kondo Katsuyuki of the Daito ryu. I've heard various reasons for this, a common one being that it is designed to protect the thumb from being sliced off.

In my research I have also found, interestingly, that this same fist with the thumb enclosed happens to be a body protection mudra associated with various esoteric Buddhist rituals.

As for the bow above, I don't know the significance of it.

Best regards,
Arman Partamian

Ron Tisdale
3rd January 2005, 21:57
I've heard people (interestingly enough, one from Yagyu Shinkage ryu) tell me of instructors using the thumb to throw them (rather painfully) when they left it out.

RT

Dan Harden
3rd January 2005, 21:59
I know of two Koryu jujutsu styles that teach this as a way of sieza. I can say I was told it was a way to protect the thumb from being grabbed. Interesting in that there is also a method (Koryu) to bow with the hands placed in front (much like we all do) but the weight and balance is in the body. If you knock the hands away in a suprise attempt to unbalance or tried to grab-you would find nothing there-or a suprise knife in your gut as there is no resting weight on the hands. Instead the hips would be more stable and leave the hands free for the chance to go for a weapon.
Hey Arman score one for mudras in action. Just don't say I admited to it....Hah! ;)
The real key is which came first; the mudra or the action.

Cheers
Dan

Dan Harden
3rd January 2005, 22:01
Sorry, Ron beat me to it by 2 minutes. I didn't mean to be redundant.

Dan

paul manogue
6th January 2005, 14:58
The book was probably "shin kage ryu nyumon", and introduction to shin kage ryu, I just pulled out my copy and saw the same picture.
In the edo branch we only use this hand for the cross legeded bow.
However in our standard bob we keep the thumb inside the index finger for protection as Ron stated(he's got a good memory)and it only comes out once the hands are on the floor. Also while standingthe hands are kept in a similar position, fist is too strong a word for either, lightly coiled, with thumb resting at the joint of the first knuckle of the index finger, this is to protect the thumb and is also related to a mundra to conserve energy.

Mekugi
6th January 2005, 15:30
What about kuji, like from Shinto?


Originally posted by paul manogue
The book was probably "shin kage ryu nyumon", and introduction to shin kage ryu, I just pulled out my copy and saw the same picture.
In the edo branch we only use this hand for the cross legeded bow.
However in our standard bob we keep the thumb inside the index finger for protection as Ron stated(he's got a good memory)and it only comes out once the hands are on the floor. Also while standingthe hands are kept in a similar position, fist is too strong a word for either, lightly coiled, with thumb resting at the joint of the first knuckle of the index finger, this is to protect the thumb and is also related to a mundra to conserve energy.

Steve Delaney
6th January 2005, 15:57
A similar hand formation is used in the reiho of Matsui-ha Sosuishi-ryu Kumi-Uchi Koshi-No-Mawari in Tokyo.

Okashira
6th January 2005, 19:19
Originally posted by Arman
Two things:

The bow in the above photograph is, I believe, from Yagyu Shinkage ryu, although there may be many others that utilize it as well.

To Richard's question, there are indeed many photographs of martial artists (and swordsmiths) who are standing with their thumbs tucked into their fists. You can see it in many pictures of Takeda Tokimune and Kondo Katsuyuki of the Daito ryu. I've heard various reasons for this, a common one being that it is designed to protect the thumb from being sliced off.

In my research I have also found, interestingly, that this same fist with the thumb enclosed happens to be a body protection mudra associated with various esoteric Buddhist rituals.

As for the bow above, I don't know the significance of it.

Best regards,
Arman Partamian

The picture is taken from this book:
Shinkage Ryu Nyumon (Author:Watanabe Tadanari )


Originally posted by Mekugi
What about kuji, like from Shinto?

But I am very interested too in the angle presented above.

Ron Tisdale
6th January 2005, 20:35
See Paul, we really DO listen when you talk! :)

Thanks for the lesson...I take it when you learned it it was a bit more painfull...

Ron :p

Alex Dale
6th January 2005, 21:37
Yes, it is also performed frequently in the Owari line of the YSR.


-Alex Dale

paul manogue
7th January 2005, 03:39
Your right Ron, my sensei decided I would stop putting my thumb out if he grabbed it and threw me by it a few times to show me that tsuki, quite right too, 2-3 times later I stopped doing that.

Sorry if I sound stupid, but what do you mean the "kuji of shinto" I dont know the term, unless you mean the kuji kiri of mikkyo i/o shinto.

Mekugi
7th January 2005, 07:29
Yes,
Kuji aka "kuji-kiri". It could be the Mikkyo or Shugendo "style", though. I could be something completely unrelated as well. I am just tossing things out here, for benefit or decline.


Originally posted by paul manogue
Sorry if I sound stupid, but what do you mean the "kuji of shinto" I dont know the term, unless you mean the kuji kiri of mikkyo i/o shinto.

renfield_kuroda
7th January 2005, 09:15
AFAIK thumbs in, loosely closed fists is a fairly traditional way of holding one's hands. I've read/seen various books/magazines on koryu and martial arts (most recently Hiden) that showed such a thing.
Also it's common in some religious ceremonies, as has already been discussed a bit. I have been to at least one religious dojo where the palm of the hands never touched the floor, so the back of the fingers, with thumb curled inside, was used when bowing whilst seated on the floor.

Regards,

r e n

Arman
7th January 2005, 19:15
Russ,

The kuji are mudras (Japanese: in). The specific body protection mudra I was talking about is not nearly as well-known as the kuji, but would be utilized quite similarly.

Best regards,
Arman Partamian

Mekugi
7th January 2005, 19:31
Yeah I know this.

We're talking about Japanese things here, though. Not Pranayan Buddhism...and there is a difference....like:
The kuji-in, found predominantaly in Shugendo; it using the 9 symbols represented by the words Rin-Pyo-To-Sha-Kai-Jin-Retsu-Zai-Zen or the "cutting" of the Kuji, of course called "kuji kiri".

Stuff like that there.


Originally posted by Arman
Russ,

The kuji are mudras (Japanese: in). The specific body protection mudra I was talking about is not nearly as well-known as the kuji, but would be utilized quite similarly.

Best regards,
Arman Partamian

Mekugi
7th January 2005, 19:50
Originally posted by Arman
Russ,

The kuji are mudras (Japanese: in).

BTW..you're looking for the word ketsu-in, not just -in.

Arman
7th January 2005, 23:54
Russ,

My point was only that the mudra I referenced is just one among many other mudras [in], such as the kuji, utilized in Japanese koryu; the kuji only being one specific set of Japanese mudra among many.

In any case, I think we understand each other now.

Best regards,
Arman Partamian

Mekugi
8th January 2005, 03:56
In any case, I have asked around and it appears that it is probably part of Shinto, but not necissarily Mikkyo or Shugendo.

Mekugi
8th January 2005, 13:33
I talked some more about this Reiho tonight with a knowledgable individual, and I feel that I need to clarify what I said previously. First, the proper name for this position is "tsumaori", Tsuma as in Tsume, or thumbnail. Now, this is not necissarily part of any type of any kuji (specifically ketsu-in, which refers to the hand positions), but it looks a great deal like one and deserves more research. The person I was contacting and talking to said "yes, there is a hand position like this in shinto", however after talking to them a little more it becomes clear that it was not identical, but indeed similar.

Hope that makes sense,

-Russ