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Daniel Son
4th January 2005, 12:37
Bogu training

I am a student of Joe Louge's in Erie, Pa. who's lineage is Stan Hart of Mansfield Ohio who had trained under Mr. Oyata for sometime, anyways my reason for writing is that I have spoke with my teacher, Joe, about Bogu training and he, in his opinion, really can't see the benefits of training with this padding on. In his explaintion to me about this, he says that training with pads on and not being able to "feel" the technique is like training with ineffiecent movements while doing kata.
I guess I can also see the point Joe is trying to make about when you spar, you are fighting and not defending, so you are trying to score or hit and by doing so (fighting, getting into a stance and moving around) you are going to in turn try to use power in your punches and be in an offensive state (weakened state) rather than defensive. He has us practice kata over and over, which I love doing, then he will show us the applications to kata and we will then break up in pairs and work these techniques. We do not spar at all. He also tells me that he is training us as he was trained by Stan, who was trained the same way from Oyata, with no Bogu Kumite.

Comments?


Daniel

Harry Cook
4th January 2005, 13:15
Fighting involves contact, and therefore pain and shock. Pre-arranged drills, while valuable learning methods, cannot replicate the chaos of actual fighting. By wearing armour you can simulate the realities of actual fighting while minimising the levels of damage sustained.
The ever changing nature of man to man combat is diificult to capture in a form, which is why kata is incomplete without bunkai and then a kind of spontaneous form of sparring. One of the values of methods such as Zen and Taoism to oriental warriors was the stress these systems placed on the here and now and the need to penetrate to the reality of a situation. You might find the letters written by Takuan to Yagyu Munenori of interest in this light.
Harry Cook

Daniel Son
4th January 2005, 14:11
Thank you Harry for your comments, Iwas wondering though as I have heard this before......


The ever changing nature of man to man combat is diificult to capture in a form, which is why kata is incomplete without bunkai and then a kind of spontaneous form of sparring.

How has the nature of man changed?

Kata is incomplete without Bunkai, which is why I am so happy to have found a teacher who can interpret these movements into something that really makes sense. Not the "block, punch and kick" theory I was used to in my prior training.


One of the values of methods such as Zen and Taoism to oriental warriors was the stress these systems placed on the here and now and the need to penetrate to the reality of a situation. You might find the letters written by Takuan to Yagyu Munenori of interest in this light.

I will look into this, thanks for the insight. I will admit I am at the early stages of my training with Joe and I am open to any comments. Thanks.

Timothy.G.B.
4th January 2005, 17:25
Daniel:

In our school only the children fight with bogu on to get them used to punching and kicking and having some fun. For adults, fighting with the bogu on can cause serious damage. Getting hit full force in the face with a bogu mask on can snap the neck around in a way that would not happen if it were not on.

Because the mask sticks out farther than a normal human face, the torque that can be generated can do serious damage to one's neck. In my experience, bogu won't protect you from an attack to vulnerable areas like the groin etc, nor will it protect you from an attack from the back or from a full force attack by someone who hits makiwara properly. I wouldn't want to train with bogu on in my school, to put it another way :)

Just a few cautions and a different perspective.

I hope this helps.

Best,
Tim Black
Kokusai Shinjinbukan

CEB
4th January 2005, 17:43
Do you hit each other full force in the face without Bogu? That also.

CEB
4th January 2005, 18:00
That hurts also. Just curious. Thanks.

chizikunbo
4th January 2005, 18:12
Joe Logue, a realative of Hanshi Jim Logue of SC?
Anyway Jim trained with Taika Oyata in Okinawa at the Dojo in Makiminato Urasoe San. He had Bogu then, Taika got Bogu Fighting from Shigeru Nakumura and helped him perfect it, Nakumura was responsable for the wide spread use of the Bogu Gear.
As far as the gear goes, many of the strikes in RyuKyu Kempo (Oyata Lineage) are very dangerous if done without proper protection. As are the Tuit Kyusho techniques which are not used in Bogu Kumite, but try taking a full contact blow to the Solar Plexius without Bogu gear...
Take a look at Hanshi Logues website http://kushu.com he is Taika Oyatas most Senior student 9th Dan Hanshi, he will answer any questions you may have on the subject via email which can be found on the site.
Also if you look areound there you will find a section called "The Bogu Experience" its a good read.
Enjoy, and good luck in you training!


Originally posted by Daniel Son
Bogu training

I am a student of Joe Louge's in Erie, Pa. who's lineage is Stan Hart of Mansfield Ohio who had trained under Mr. Oyata for sometime, anyways my reason for writing is that I have spoke with my teacher, Joe, about Bogu training and he, in his opinion, really can't see the benefits of training with this padding on. In his explaintion to me about this, he says that training with pads on and not being able to "feel" the technique is like training with ineffiecent movements while doing kata.
I guess I can also see the point Joe is trying to make about when you spar, you are fighting and not defending, so you are trying to score or hit and by doing so (fighting, getting into a stance and moving around) you are going to in turn try to use power in your punches and be in an offensive state (weakened state) rather than defensive. He has us practice kata over and over, which I love doing, then he will show us the applications to kata and we will then break up in pairs and work these techniques. We do not spar at all. He also tells me that he is training us as he was trained by Stan, who was trained the same way from Oyata, with no Bogu Kumite.

Comments?


Daniel

Daniel Son
4th January 2005, 19:52
Joe Logue, a realative of Hanshi Jim Logue of SC?

No, they are not relatives, but they know of each other and have been at a seminar or two and have met before. That is what I have been told anyways. I was not there myself.

I guess I am just opening up a can of worms here with a question like this. I can respect and somewhat understand how some may want to train with this method or by using a makiwara or heavy bag to train, but IMHO, I do not think that this will train you to hit properly. When I say this, I mean does anyone honestly believe that hitting any of these objects will teach you how to "move" or "shock" the muscle. Not one of these is like hitting or moving an actual person. Not that I hit a person daily, but rather simply practice kata movements over and over again and then doing those same kata movements to them in self defense applications. (When I do have a willing participant) I can hear Joe now when I begin to get frustrated "move like you do in kata" he does not say to me......move like you do when you hit the bag, makiwara or anything else.

You bring up a great point about Jim Logue training in Okinawa with Oyata well before my instructor did, yes they did use bogu equipment then, it makes ME wonder why though, back then, in those days when things were not so well off financially how could these teachers make their art more appealing to the Americans that were stationed over there?? Bogu equipment...tournaments...look at modern Karate today, what sells...tournament style fighting and big trophies. I mean absolutely no disrespect at all, I am just wondering how Shigeru Nakumura trained before Bogu was invented? Probably Kata, right?

I mean I do understand that these are different ways to train and I respect that but it is just like training with nanchaku , sword or sai, when you can't use it on the street. What I can use on the street is my whole body. So why not just use that to defend myself and I train by doing kata and then applying the exact same movements in self defense applications. (Well at least I try, like I said I am still pretty green at all of this.)



As far as the gear goes, many of the strikes in RyuKyu Kempo (Oyata Lineage) are very dangerous if done without proper protection. As are the s which are not used in Bogu Kumite, but try taking a full contact blow to the Solar Plexius without Bogu gear...

Good point there too...let me ask you this, from your statement there. I have taken Tuite/ Kyusho strikes to the arms and neck and some to the chest, some may be very dangerous to strike, so I would imagine Joe would not strike anywhere too damaging, but how else will you know that these techniques actually work if you have padding on? You won't, so I say… why wear it? As far as a training tool in sparring, well sparring is again in my opinion counter productive to what I train for, I do not train to be a fighter, rather I train purely for self defense...if I have the time to stand there and go toe-to-toe with someone who is dancing around in front of me, I have the time to back away and hopefully RUN...that is self preservation right:-) If necessary I will defend myself as QUICKLY and EFFICIENTLY as possible. I may have to find a school near here and just try the bogu experience for myself and EMPTY my own cup, huh. I have in the past done the tournament style fighting so I guess I have an idea of what Bogu traing would be like, other than the full contact aspect.

Here is a question that just popped in my head, people like Jim Logue or anyone else that has been in this system for A LONG time, I wonder if they still put this equipment on or if Mr. Oyata still does? If not, and I would guess they do not, why not? How do they train? Once again I would have to guess they probably train by simply doing kata.

Timothy.G.B.
5th January 2005, 03:56
Ed:

Every chance we get :) except we find it doesn't hurt if you smile a lot ;)


Best,
Tim Black
Kokusai Shinjinbukan

Harry Cook
5th January 2005, 10:07
I did not say that the nature of man has changed, I was referrring to man-to-man combat.
I totally disagree with your comments re makiwara, heavy bag training. You first learn to deliver power/shock to a relatively static target (makiwara/bag etc) then to a more mobile target (focus pads) then to an opponent. The skills you develop through such training are directly transferable to fighting. If this form of training did not work, then professional boxers, Muay Thai boxers etc etc would not do it. Sumo wrestlers develop thier striking skills on a big wooden post. They are perfectly able to slap/push their opponents with great force in a match.
I don't know if you have ever sen Higaonna sensei hit a makiwara, bag etc, but I know from personal experience what his punch feels like when applied to flesh.
Harry Cook

Daniel Son
5th January 2005, 16:50
Good morning Harry,

I understood what you were saying about how man-to-man combat has changed, and I was wondering how so? I am speaking of unarmed combat; I know that weapons have certainly evolved.


I totally disagree with your comments re makiwara, heavy bag training

I am certain most will as well.


You first learn to deliver power/shock to a relatively static target (makiwara/bag etc) then to a more mobile target (focus pads) then to an opponent.

Train first to hit board or bag then a moving bag to learn how to hit a person? Why not just learn how to strike the person in the first place? Why hit an object that isn’t like hitting real muscle as with Bogu? Yes I agree it will help with power, but I train not to be stronger than my opponent, just make him weaker than me. After I have my opponent weakened I do not have to worry about how hard I can punch. Right?



The skills you develop through such training are directly transferable to fighting.


Sure everyone wants to punch like Mike Tyson but who has the time to hit a bag all day, I have a full time job, family and house to care for, I can not find the time to train like a professional boxer, Muay Thai boxer, Sumo wrestler or whatever, I am just an average guy with not much time so I just practice kata…as much as possible which in turn will directly transfer into self defense if needed, not fighting. I am not a fighter.


If this form of training did not work, then professional boxers, Muay Thai boxers etc etc would not do it.

They shadow box right? Isn’t that similar to practicing Kata?


I don't know if you have ever sen Higaonna sensei hit a makiwara, bag etc, but I know from personal experience what his punch feels like when applied to flesh.

No, I haven’t. I am sure his punching power is great.

I have seen for myself, people with awesome punching/kicking power and awesome body dynamics for creating explosive power come to Joe’s class to learn Tuite and see them struggle with the concepts of having a loose wrist/tight fist when moving/striking muscle, just like myself. I have to relearn how to strike, because like you I am used to hitting hard objects be it a bag or whatever to make my punches stronger but now I am now relearning how to strike. Why? Because I was taught block, punch, kick to be stronger and faster than my opponent. I guess it is very hard for me to explain if you have never felt or even applied a true muscle moving technique, anybody can hit the muscle. Some harder than others, but not many can effectively move/shock the muscle as I am describing in Tuite / Kyusho Jutsu.

Let me just say this in my closing, practicing Kata alone will not help with the self defense interpretations, you need an instructor that understands the “deeper” meanings of these movements. What looks like a punch, may not be a punch….

Timothy.G.B.
5th January 2005, 17:31
Dear Daniel:

Just wanted to let you know that some Okinawan Shorin schools do practice hitting makiwara with a tight fist/loose wrist, bent wrist, straight wrist etc. Japanese schools who hit makiwara often have not learned how to hit without leaning into the makiwara and so it looks like a lot of power punching and works best with only a straight wrist.

I learned first hand that people don't always show or talk openly about what they know but some people do. The trick is to figure out who is telling you everything they know (which may not be much) and who is only telling you what they want you to know :). In the latter case, they may not have much to teach you but they don't want you to know that is the case, or they may have a tremendous amount to teach you but aren't certain they want you to learn it!!

You probably already know this but it just came to mind when I read your post.

Not an easy task to figure out which is which!!

Regarding your time constraints, I completely understand. I know of very few (if any) martial artists who are able to train full time with no responsibilities elsewhere.

Best regards,
Tim Black
Kokusai Shinjinbukan

Harry Cook
5th January 2005, 18:12
It is the nature of combat which is ever changing ie. it is a fluid, chaotic situation.
Hitting a person rather than an unresponsive target is actually the best way, but in the process of improving your power, technique etc etc you would soon run out of partners. I guess you are referring to hitting vital spots etc, but unless you actually do it for real in your training you ase only working with a theoretical model. It is worth noting that in full contact, all in events no one bothers with atemi waza etc. The Chinese autheor Chin I-Ming looked at vital point use in one of his books published in the 1920s. he concluded that it was an art for low rank boxers, of little practical use.
Harry Cook

Daniel Son
5th January 2005, 18:58
It is the nature of combat which is ever changing ie. it is a fluid, chaotic situation.

I agree, very ugly looking. But man since the beginning of time has had two arms, two legs etc... and has attacked and fought much the same way. Punching, pushing, wrestling, kicking...etc....So, before all this modern bogu, hitting the heavy bag was around, how did people train?




Hitting a person rather than an unresponsive target is actually the best way, but in the process of improving your power, technique etc etc you would soon run out of partners.



:-) Very true, not many people would stick around for such abuse. We do not train for striking with power with people, we do this thru kata training where as you practice your technique there (i.e. dropping weight, shifting hips and good body mechanics)


I guess you are referring to hitting vital spots etc, but unless you actually do it for real in your training you ase only working with a theoretical model. It is worth noting that in full contact, all in events no one bothers with atemi waza etc. The Chinese autheor Chin I-Ming looked at vital point use in one of his books published in the 1920s. he concluded that it was an art for low rank boxers, of little practical use.

I think you are confusing what I am learning with what a man by the name of George Dillman teaches, not even close. I do not practice vital point or no-touch no outs etc...:-)

Timothy.G.B.
6th January 2005, 01:46
Daniel:

I was curious about your statement regarding using kata for developing punching power. I wonder how that works? In most sports people actually use something with more resistance than what they would normally use, like a heavier ball, puck, hockey stick, blocking pad etc.

How is it that using no resistance increases your punching power?

Please understand, I really am curious what the thinking is behind that. I'm not just being provocative.

Best,
Tim Black
Kokusai Shinjinbukan

Harry Cook
6th January 2005, 09:04
It is well known that the most important way of improving in any form of learning is through feed back. How do you know you are increasing your striking efficiency through improving the movements of your kata? We all accept that kata training is useful in this regard (as well as other aspects of course), but simply moving in thin air will not drastically improve your power levels. This is why Okinawan systems have made great use of hojo undo equipment,such as the makiwara and kake tebiki, Chinese systems utilise various forms of the wooden man etc etc.
Harry Cook

Troll Basher
6th January 2005, 11:03
Originally posted by Daniel Son
Bogu training

1) .......anyways my reason for writing is that I have spoke with my teacher, Joe, about Bogu training and he, in his opinion, really can't see the benefits of training with this padding on. In his explaintion to me about this, he says that training with pads on and not being able to "feel" the technique is like training with ineffiecent movements while doing kata.



2) He has us practice kata over and over, which I love doing, then he will show us the applications to kata and we will then break up in pairs and work these techniques. We do not spar at all.

3) He also tells me that he is training us as he was trained by Stan, who was trained the same way from Oyata, with no Bogu Kumite.

Comments?


Daniel


1) This tells me that he never did Bogu before. The helmets that are worn for Bogu are not “cushy” on the inside. They have stuff padding in them which is similar to an obi worn in MAs. Not exactly “soft”. Getting hit in the head with bogu on will not leave a bruise or knock your teeth out but you WILL feel it.
2) That’s not a bad idea but I think he needs to take it a step further and do some bogu. Knowing what it is like to get bumped around in a fight will help you to not freak out in a real situation…..
3) In Mr. Oyata’s dojo in Okinawa back in the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s, from what I understand Bogu was done every class. It was still done in the 1980’s after he moved to the US….Here are some photos from Okinawa and the US http://www.kushu.com/bogu.htm and here is an article on Bogu http://www.kushu.com/bogu_kumite.htm In my dojo we still do bogu almost every class…….

Daniel Son
6th January 2005, 12:59
How is it that using no resistance increases your punching power?

Good morning Tim, Harry and Robert, no I didn't think you were being provocative at all Tim, nor am I about this subject. Just opening things up for discussion. What I meant was by doing kata properly with good body mechanics is what will develop your speed, timing and power. With bad or sloppy form you will never accomplish these things. Your feedback with kata is your teacher telling you what to fix as well as practice, practice ,practice of kata. 9 times slow and 1 time fast, one-handed, no handed.... etc....

When you hit the bag or makiwara what are you trying to do? Perfect the technique, how does the board or bag give feedback?


With kata practice what are you doing, perfecting the technique, your feed back is the application of these movements in class with a partner, if they fall to the floor screaming in pain, with minimal effort on your part you know you have got the technique.


How do you know you are increasing your striking efficiency through improving the movements of your kata? We all accept that kata training is useful in this regard (as well as other aspects of course), but simply moving in thin air will not drastically improve your power levels.

You will know you are improving striking efficiency when you pair up at class after long hours of practicing kata and you are working a particular kata movement and your partner goes down with ease, and you say to yourself "did that really work?" It didn't feel like I even did anything, with kata practice you form muscle memory, with kata practice you practice good body dynamics which translates into power, although that is not my objective.....to obtain great striking power, what is...is efficient self defense.



1) This tells me that he never did Bogu before. The helmets that are worn for Bogu are not “cushy” on the inside. They have stuff padding in them which is similar to an obi worn in MAs. Not exactly “soft”. Getting hit in the head with bogu on will not leave a bruise or knock your teeth out but you WILL feel it.

You are correct, Joe never has.



2) That’s not a bad idea but I think he needs to take it a step further and do some bogu. Knowing what it is like to get bumped around in a fight will help you to not freak out in a real situation…..

I think I would try it as I have done you typical karate tournament style fighting, but there is the difference using bogu equipment is fighting, not self defending. Two totally different definitions there. With bogu you can only strike hard and fast with only hands and feet where as on the street you have trained to use more than just hands and feet for self defense purposes right? So, why practice something that you can only use a bit of, if needed. Like I said before, why get in a guarded position and ready stance and dance about with this equipment on, when this is the definition of fighting, not self-defense. Also Robert as I said above the more you practice kata the more it becomes muslce memory, so in that situation of defending yourself what comes back to you, muscle memory. All those movements come naturally, you have become "tactile" by this time.


3) In Mr. Oyata’s dojo in Okinawa back in the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s, from what I understand Bogu was done every class. It was still done in the 1980’s after he moved to the US….Here are some photos from Okinawa and the US http://www.kushu.com/bogu.htm and here is an article on Bogu http://www.kushu.com/bogu_kumite.htm In my dojo we still do bogu almost every class…….

Do you know if Mr. Oyata still puts this equipment on to train? Honest question...like Tim said in his post, I am not trying to be provocative. I understand that Mr. Oyata is older now and may not use this equipment, but his skills are still probably quite phenomenal and many flock to his seminars to witness his self defense. How does he maintain this high level of skill at his age? Again…kata.

Troll Basher
6th January 2005, 14:09
Originally posted by Daniel Son


1) I think I would try it as I have done you typical karate tournament style fighting, but there is the difference using bogu equipment is fighting, not self defending.
Two totally different definitions there. With bogu you can only strike hard and fast with only hands and feet where as on the street you have trained to use more than just hands and feet for self defense purposes right?
2) So, why practice something that you can only use a bit of, if needed. Like I said before, why get in a guarded position and ready stance and dance about with this equipment on, when this is the definition of fighting, not self-defense. Also Robert as I said above the more you practice kata the more it becomes muslce memory, so in that situation of defending yourself what comes back to you, muscle memory. All those movements come naturally, you have become "tactile" by this time.



3) Do you know if Mr. Oyata still puts this equipment on to train? Honest question...like Tim said in his post, I am not trying to be provocative. I understand that Mr. Oyata is older now and may not use this equipment, but his skills are still probably quite phenomenal and many flock to his seminars to witness his self defense. How does he maintain this high level of skill at his age? Again…kata.


1) Typical Karate tournament to me means those “tippy tap crap” things. I think you need to find someone to teach you how to do bogu and then actually do it before you comment on what it is and is not.
Read the article about bogu and then understand what it is for….I am not going to re-write the same information. The way you describe bogu sounds like it is the only “tool in the shed”…it’s one of many that needs to be used. When you build a house do you use only a hammer…or do you use a saw, nails and many other tools?

2) Like I said …..Read the article.
3) The man is getting close to 80 years old. You think he got that skill by never hitting or being hit??? I think you need to ask the question how did he GET that level of skill.
It seems you have been exposed to little or no information on the way Mr. Oyata actually trained/trains and amazingly yet you have already formed and espoused your opinion on what you think the benefits or lack there of are in reference to doing bogu. Given that information I doubt your question about bogu is as sincere as you would like people to believe.
I think with all the posts you have been given enough information and opinions about Bogu. I cannot speak for others but my opinion is based on having actually done bogu for years. There are pros and cons about almost every type of training. I think your next step is to actually do bogu…..

Daniel Son
6th January 2005, 14:35
1) Typical Karate tournament to me means those “tippy tap crap” things. I think you need to find someone to teach you how to do bogu and then actually do it before you comment on what it is and is not.

You are correct on the tournament style sparring matches, maybe I do need to find someone and look into fighting this way.


2) Like I said …..Read the article.

I have


Given that information I doubt your question about bogu is as sincere as you would like people to believe.

Robert, I really do not understand this statement? I am not trying to start a war I was simply having a discussion. No, I do not know of Mr. Oyata first hand, the way I am being trained is the way that Joe was trained by Stan and the way Stan was trained by Mr. Oyata.
All I am saying is that I have to believe that after seeing Joe's ability in self defense without doing Bogu and with me attacking him in any way I can and him defusing the situation effortlessly and me asking him how the "**** did you do that" and he says, "by practicing kata" I guess that is why I have the opinion that I do,. I do think Bogu is a tool yes, but what is the foundation?



There are pros and cons about almost every type of training. I think your next step is to actually do bogu…..

I am up for anything, I would try it.

Joe Logue
6th January 2005, 14:53
Hello everyone,hope the new year has started off well for you all.
I don't normally post much here, but since my student, Daniel, started this thread and my name was mentioned a few times, perhaps it's best I state my opinions as well, in response to Roberts' comments. These are my personal opinions, we all think differently in this world and I truly respect everypne's training methods for whatever type of results they wish to accomplish, but here's how I see it from my past experience:
Hi Robert, it's good to correspond with you again, it's been a while.
To answer your three comments I would accordingly respond:
1)You are 100% correct Robert, I have never trained with Bogu equipment before, it looks very interesting and can be useful for many Japanese/Okinawan/Chinese weapon and unarmed arts' practice. Perhaps someday,I'll give it a try for a few rounds. The closest I've ever come to this was wearing sparring equipment when I was in Karate tournaments back in the early 80's. I, nor my teacher, Stan Hart ever wore Bogu equipment in our Tuite/Kyusho training. Mr. Oyata never trained Stan with it and in turn Stan never trained me with it, thus I don't train my students with it. Since April of 1986, I have been learning Tuite & Kyusho Jitsu,(as we both know, it takes a lifetime to learn just 50% of it properly), in all my 6 years of training under Stan and all my years of teaching/training with others, we have made the attacker try full force and the defender respond efficiently with the full technique--(note that I didn't say the defender uses full "FORCE" as it does not truly contain a hard/forceful thrusting motion with Kyusho/Tuite Jitsu). Thus, I as the defender train to move properly, efficiently and the attacker's actual response is seen and there's no doubt if the motion was effective or not. Hitting someone hard enough to penetrate padding/hard bogu gear will make the defender move and thrust in a different motion that is not the exact same way that he should do--thus you are "untraining" your previosly trained technique to become a "different" motion--almost "karate like" in motion, if I can use that description. This can, in my humble opinion, lead to a false sense of security for the defender--it may allow him to adopt harder hitting motions that may hurt the attacker, but may not disbalance the attacker in a real situation to thus allow the defender to control him properly. "Make him weaker than you, don't try to be stronger than him" was one of the first lessons that Mr. Oyata taught Stan and Stan taught to me and I in turn to my students.
2) With all that I said here previously, obviously, I do know how it feels to be hit/bumped around in a fight,we train that way. Everytime that Stan hit me fully, I felt it and knew that it was efficient & effective. On the occasions that Mr. Oyata came to Ohio years ago, everytime he hit or manipulated me--there was no doubt of his technique's efficiency or effectiveness. All this done without the use of Bogu--just pain in a constructive, learning situation between a teacher and a student. I saw Stan & Mr. Oyata use non-forceful, bio-mechanically correct motions, not hard hitting motions that are needed to penetrate bogu equipment, that will in time, retrain your body to move incorrectly for our techniques' interpretations and to thusly move forcefully. No disrespect meant to practioners of these type of forceful motions, I do not like the feeling of being hit with a hard, forceful punch either. I'm just stating that the hard kicking and punching of Okinawa Te/Karate are not the kicks and hits and manipulating motions necessary to use in the techniques that I have learned. If you look at the Bogu tournament pictures that you have attached to your comments, you'll notice that these are the exact same forceful, hitting, hand and kicking type body postures/techniques that are NOT what Mr. Oyata pased onto my teacher. Previous to my Tuite/Kyusho training, also I trained to do these techniques in Karate tornaments as well.
3) Your & Jim's information on Bogu's history is interesting and makes me a bit curious Robert. If Mr. Nakamura "pioneered" the usage of Bogu equipment in the early 50's, then it leads me to a very important question. Since according to all of the information that Mr. Oyata has told us and all that is printed about his learning, did his two teachers of Tuite & Kyusho Jitsu teach him with the usage of Bogu equipment--did "Ugushiku No Tan Mei" and Mr. "Wakinagori" hit and manipulate Mr. Oyata in Bogu gear from 1945 to the time he started to train with Mr. Nakamura? Mr. Oyata is the greatest living martial artist that I have ever had the priviledge to meet and train with--so if his main two teachers of Tuite/Kyusho, according to him--"Ugushiku no Tan Mei and Mr. Wakinagori" did not pioneer the Bogu usage, thus didn't train him in unarmed self defense with it--why would I want to train for unarmed self defense with it. I can understand for weapons training, perhaps Mr. Oyata was trained with it--but for unarmed self-defense--it has not been stated that the only two teachers of his Tuite/Kyusho Jitsu,("Mr. Ugushiku & Wakinagori"), according to your information, ever "pioneer" the Bogu's usage.
Interesting...any info. on them teaching Mr. Oyata with Bogu???

Best regards to all,
Joe Logue

Harry Cook
6th January 2005, 16:57
Daniel Son asked 'When you hit the bag or makiwara what are you trying to do? Perfect the technique, how does the board or bag give feedback?'
The moment you hit the bag/makiwara you have feedback - you know directly whether or not you blow has power - you do not need your teacher's opinion as to the quality of the technique. Without this kind of direct experience it is very easy to overestimate how strong your techniques are. If you are working with someone who essentially is co-operating with you then there is a level of unreality which can not by avoided unless you experience some form of unrehearsed chaotic sparring.
As far as I am concerned a punch is not a punch until it actually hits something; up to that point it is simply a movement in the air. Perfecting a technique involves more than polishing the body mechanics; in fact the critical aspect is what happens when it lands on an aggressive unco-operative opponent.
I don't know if you have ever seen the footage of the aikido master Koichi Tohei trying to throw a big fat journalist who would not fall for him. He couldn't do it, but when he displayed his art; with his students they all flew elegantly through the air. I have seen the same kind of thing happen with various masters of T'ai Chi Ch'uan.
Sparring, limited though it is in some ways is a useful simulation of the kinds of unstructured actions found in fighting. Without experiencing that kind of thing there is a strong possibility a karateka (or any martial artist) will be very vulnerable to a crude but determined attacker.
Harry Cook

Timothy.G.B.
6th January 2005, 17:58
Daniel:

Just to follow on what Cook Sensei has said regarding what the makiwara may have to teach me. I agree with what he has said wholeheartedly based on my experience of trying to learn how to hit makiwara properly.

My teacher and his teacher always talk about how the makiwara is like your Sensei. If you do your technique properly, then there is no problem. If you do not do your technique properly, then the lesson from your makiwara is swift, immediate and often very painful, if not down-right damaging to the hand.

There is a lot to be learned from the tachi (standing) makiwara, despite the fact that it is in a fixed position. You should know as well that this is only one type of at least 3 different makiwara's.

Best,
Tim Black
Kokusai Shinjinbukan

Michael Bland
6th January 2005, 19:02
Hi Joe/Daniel.

I don't know the full history of Mr. Oyata's training, but I think you might be mixing it up just a bit. I believe that he trained weapons first with Mr. Uhugushiku who then introduced him to Mr. Wakinaguri who taught him hand to hand techniques and interpretation of forms. After that he worked with Mr. Nakamura's group and learned the 12 traditional karate bare hand kata he teaches.

My personal experience with Bogu at Robert's dojo was extremely painful but very enlightening. After having done bogu training I don't think it is realistic to train without it being part of the curriculum.

Best of luck on your training.

CEB
6th January 2005, 19:08
.

Timothy.G.B.
6th January 2005, 23:23
After taking a look at the pictures of the Okinawa tournament using the bogu, I was struck by one picture in particular, which demonstrates what I meant earlier by learning bad habits in free sparring.

It is the first picture from the website posted by Troll Basher (top left corner) (I am too technologically challenged to know how to post the picture here so please forgive me). In the picture you see two fighters with their backs to each other (very dangerous) and their groins exposed to each other (very dangerous) and the individual on the left is kicking with his heel off the ground (just bad technique IMO).

It is evident to me from this picture that neither person is at all worried about getting seriously injured. This is fine if you are sparring where there are rules etc. but bad habits for keeping yourself from getting hurt when there are no rules.

When you know you can't get very badly injured you tend to free spar without regard for your own safety and bad habits start to creep in. This may have been part of the reason that the old teachers were so adamant about not doing jyu kumite.

What can I say, I have my biases :)

Best,
Tim Black
Kokusai Shinjinbukan

Troll Basher
7th January 2005, 02:56
Originally posted by Daniel Son


1) Robert, I really do not understand this statement? I am not trying to start a war I was simply having a discussion.
2) No, I do not know of Mr. Oyata first hand, the way I am being trained is the way that Joe was trained by Stan and the way Stan was trained by Mr. Oyata.
3) All I am saying is that I have to believe that after seeing Joe's ability in self defense without doing Bogu and with me attacking him in any way I can and him defusing the situation effortlessly and me asking him how the "**** did you do that" and he says, "by practicing kata" I guess that is why I have the opinion that I do,.
4) I do think Bogu is a tool yes, but what is the foundation?

1) Well your “question” and your opinion are based on something you have yet to do. I find it odd you have such an opinion on something you have yet to learn or actually do.
2) I guess you aren’t getting the “full package” then.
3) Nobody ever said training using kata and drills is not useful, however there is a need and benefit for doing something with a bit of stress in it…..like bogu.
4) I suggested you read the article on bogu, if you read it and understood it this discussion would be over.

Troll Basher
7th January 2005, 03:24
Originally posted by Timothy.G.B.

1) After taking a look at the pictures of the Okinawa tournament using the bogu, I was struck by one picture in particular, which demonstrates what I meant earlier by learning bad habits in free sparring.

2) It is the first picture from the website posted by Troll Basher (top left corner) (I am too technologically challenged to know how to post the picture here so please forgive me). In the picture you see two fighters with their backs to each other (very dangerous) and their groins exposed to each other (very dangerous) and the individual on the left is kicking with his heel off the ground (just bad technique IMO).

3) It is evident to me from this picture that neither person is at all worried about getting seriously injured. This is fine if you are sparring where there are rules etc. but bad habits for keeping yourself from getting hurt when there are no rules.

4) When you know you can't get very badly injured you tend to free spar without regard for your own safety and bad habits start to creep in. This may have been part of the reason that the old teachers were so adamant about not doing jyu kumite.

What can I say, I have my biases :)

Best,
Tim Black
Kokusai Shinjinbukan

1) I have seen people learn bad habits from doing just about anything…..from driving to practicing kata. I can’t count how many times I have had people come by my dojo that were against free sparring because they said it developed “bad habits” and then do bogu only to get the living crap kicked out of them. You have to know what the purpose of free sparring is to get benefit from it. If you just go out and pound on each other without any sort of goal or plan you are just wasting time.
2) So in your opinion did these two fighters learn those improper techniques from free sparring or was it somewhere else……truth is you don’t actually know. They may have lifted there heel off the ground in practice as well and it just carried over to kumite….maybe it was a one time occurrence. Maybe they did it because they were concerned about getting their brains bashed in and they forgot proper form for a second.
3) Bullxxxx, until you have done bogu don’t make such an uneducated assumption. Getting hit in the head in bogu can definitely ‘rattle your cage” with a pretty decent amount of pain. Granted you won’t get a broken nose or teeth knocked out but it does hurt.
4) As far as the “old teachers” go I think they fall into 2 categories. One type is the kind that “back in the day” there was no safe way to practice free sparring and they didn’t want people to get broken noses or eye damage etc…..The second type are the kind that are just plain old fashioned wussies…..which there seem to more and more of lately. At one time on Okinawa most dojos that did jiyu kumite did it bogu style…..now more dojos are going toward the Japanese tippy-tap-crap type tournaments……..talk about developing bad habits….. :rolleyes:


Here something for you guys……how many of you practice a kibadachi/naihanchi dachi?
I think pretty much everyone that does karate does this stance……why do it? It would be terrible in a fight….best way to get your balls kicked in I have ever seen…..however if you know what the stance is for and how it is used it is a valuable tool…..same with bogu.

Joe Logue
7th January 2005, 03:34
2) I guess you aren’t getting the “full package” then.
Robert--
Just a question, does this mean that an art, or an idea, or a system of learning can't be properly passed down from one generation to the next? Does this mean that if any of your students has never worked or trained with Mr.Oyata then they aren't receiving the "full package" from you?? Does this mean that since Stan Hart or Jim Logue, Greg Linquist or yourself for example who have studied directly under Mr. Oyata, but yet have never studied directly under Mr.Nakamura,(or from the story characters of "Uhghusiku and Wakinagori" if you wish), does this mean that you all didn't receive the "full package"??? A logical answer would of course be no. Mr. Oyata taught you and others the "full package" as he saw fit to do--with or without Bogu--you in turn can pass it onto your students and someday it will be passed onto their students. If this wasn't true, the "FULL PACKAGE" of mathematics, music, art , religions, archetechture, Tuite/Kyusho Jitsu, etc... would never have been passed down from one generation of mankind to the next.
To judge me or what I'm teaching in that manner is not a very logical conclusion--my name is not "George Dillman". If I have misjudged your intention here Robert please correct me--I appologize if I'm taking this in a wrong manner.
I am teaching 100% of what Stan learned from Mr.Oyata---as Mr. Oyata did not, I repeat, did not teach "Bogu" to Stan and it was Stan's amazing abilities to throw me around like a I was a rag doll,to strike me effortlessly in my face, body, legs, etc...and send me to the ground--with no broken bones-dizzy and totally without any control of my body---it was this "Bogu-Less" training that made me totally throw away my Karate "Black Belt" and immediately start to exclusively train in Tuite/Kyusho Jitsu back in April of 1986 and continue to do so to this day.
Again, Robert, correct me if I've taken your statement's intentions incorrectly, but it appears this way--in which it was stated.
With respects,
Joe Logue
(The "Bogu-less" Tuite guy...)

Troll Basher
7th January 2005, 05:02
Originally posted by Joe Logue
2) I guess you aren’t getting the “full package” then.
Robert--
Just a question, does this mean that an art, or an idea, or a system of learning can't be properly passed down from one generation to the next?
1) Does this mean that if any of your students has never worked or trained with Mr.Oyata then they aren't receiving the "full package" from you?? Does this mean that since Stan Hart or Jim Logue, Greg Linquist or yourself for example who have studied directly under Mr. Oyata, but yet have never studied directly under Mr.Nakamura,(or from the story characters of "Uhghusiku and Wakinagori" if you wish), does this mean that you all didn't receive the "full package"???
2) A logical answer would of course be no. Mr. Oyata taught you and others the "full package" as he saw fit to do--with or without Bogu--you in turn can pass it onto your students and someday it will be passed onto their students. If this wasn't true, the "FULL PACKAGE" of mathematics, music, art , religions, archetechture, Tuite/Kyusho Jitsu, etc... would never have been passed down from one generation of mankind to the next.
To judge me or what I'm teaching in that manner is not a very logical conclusion--my name is not "George Dillman". If I have misjudged your intention here Robert please correct me--I appologize if I'm taking this in a wrong manner.
I am teaching 100% of what Stan learned from Mr.Oyata---as Mr. Oyata did not, I repeat, did not teach "Bogu" to Stan and it was Stan's amazing abilities to throw me around like a I was a rag doll,to strike me effortlessly in my face, body, legs, etc...and send me to the ground--with no broken bones-dizzy and totally without any control of my body---it was this "Bogu-Less" training that made me totally throw away my Karate "Black Belt" and immediately start to exclusively train in Tuite/Kyusho Jitsu back in April of 1986 and continue to do so to this day.
Again, Robert, correct me if I've taken your statement's intentions incorrectly, but it appears this way--in which it was stated.
With respects,
Joe Logue
(The "Bogu-less" Tuite guy...)


Wow you have totally blown a comment waaaay out of context.
1) Did I say that?
2) Maybe you should understand the context of the statement before you give a long diatribe reply.

Bogu is part of Mr. Oyata’s system, just as tuite, kobudo, etc. are part of his system.

Joe Logue
7th January 2005, 11:45
Ok Robert, thanks for clarifying your comment's intention, I appreciate your quick response.
Best regards,
Joe Logue

Troll Basher
7th January 2005, 11:59
Originally posted by Daniel Son
Bogu training

………anyways my reason for writing is that I have spoke with my teacher, Joe, about
1) Bogu training and he, in his opinion, really can't see the benefits of training with this padding on. In his explaintion to me about this, he says that training with pads on and not being able to "feel" the technique is like training with ineffiecent movements while doing kata.
2) I guess I can also see the point Joe is trying to make about when you spar, you are fighting and not defending, so you are trying to score or hit and by doing so
3) (fighting, getting into a stance and moving around) you are going to in turn try to use power in your punches and be in an offensive state (weakened state) rather than defensive. ……..
Daniel

Joe,

A question for you.

1) How can you see no benefit in something you have, by your own admission, never done?
2) Actually this is incorrect. In bogu you are still blocking, still using body movement, timing, reaction speed and so on. If you see 2 people that aren’t very good at bogu it looks more like a brawl, however when you see folks that have skill you can see a lot of good technique used.
3) Again, this statement lacks knowledge of the subject at hand.

Joe Logue
7th January 2005, 12:47
Sure Robert,
I agree fully with you and all others that there are benefits to training with Bogu. makiwara, wooden dummies, hand pads, punching bags, etc...if that type of training and body mechanics are what the practioner is seaking, we are in agreement on this. I used this type of training decades ago in my Karate training and was benefited for doing it--for that type of body mechanics--hitting a surface that is not the exact same thing as the human body.
Yes, I also agree with you that training with bogu is not identical with Tuite training. Not everyone understands this in the MA community.
All that I am saying is simply that if I want to teach someone how to feel the effectiveness of a Tuite/Kyusho movement and simultaneously do that movement efficiently and effectively in order to make the correct body movement "second nature" to myself,(i.e. correct instinct on how to move immediately and exactly in a panic/attack situation), or as Daniel stated to have my body's "muscle memory" created properly for that movement, then I don't want us to wear padding in class. It is painful for the receiver of the movement, but that teaches both the defender and the attacker how effective the technique was and how the attacker's body reacts to the technique--without any covering on their bodies.
The whole issue stems from Daniel's simple question to me if I was ever trained by Stan or he before me by Mr. Oyata using Bogu equipment in order to learn Tuite/Kyusho Jitsu.
I'm sure you realise Robert that when most people, in general, think of Kyusho hitting, they want to learn how to hit hard to penetrate and brake a bone or hit hard on a nerve/"pressure point"/"Dillman Triple Warmer nerve hit crap"--so I'm just distiguishing that I don't want to hit hard like this and don't want my body to learn to "Block, Punch & Kick", i.e. hitting on someone wearing Bogu, or any type of padding.
As a fellow practioner of Mr. Oyata's arts, you understand that we truly don't train to "Block", but instead we train to "redirect and disbalance to put the attacker in a vunerable position, we truly don't "punch", but instead we train to strike and shock the attacker as to put him in a weakened state, and we truly don't "kick" with our feet & legs, but instead we move and shock the attacker's body to disbalance him and again put him in a weakened and vunerable state so if we need to do more to him in order to save our own life--then we can choose to do so, or "pin" him, or simply just move/push him away and we can run away and save our life.
The way of training of how Mr.Oyata trained Stan & Stan trained me in turn is how I believe is the most efficient way of training for me---not necessarily for others--just for me, without the use of bogu. That's all I am saying. Please don't read into it any more than that.
Best regards to all,
Joe Logue

chizikunbo
7th January 2005, 17:58
Originally posted by Daniel Son
No, they are not relatives, but they know of each other and have been at a seminar or two and have met before. That is what I have been told anyways. I was not there myself.

I guess I am just opening up a can of worms here with a question like this. I can respect and somewhat understand how some may want to train with this method or by using a makiwara or heavy bag to train, but IMHO, I do not think that this will train you to hit properly. When I say this, I mean does anyone honestly believe that hitting any of these objects will teach you how to "move" or "shock" the muscle. Not one of these is like hitting or moving an actual person. Not that I hit a person daily, but rather simply practice kata movements over and over again and then doing those same kata movements to them in self defense applications. (When I do have a willing participant) I can hear Joe now when I begin to get frustrated "move like you do in kata" he does not say to me......move like you do when you hit the bag, makiwara or anything else.

You bring up a great point about Jim Logue training in Okinawa with Oyata well before my instructor did, yes they did use bogu equipment then, it makes ME wonder why though, back then, in those days when things were not so well off financially how could these teachers make their art more appealing to the Americans that were stationed over there?? Bogu equipment...tournaments...look at modern Karate today, what sells...tournament style fighting and big trophies. I mean absolutely no disrespect at all, I am just wondering how Shigeru Nakumura trained before Bogu was invented? Probably Kata, right?

I mean I do understand that these are different ways to train and I respect that but it is just like training with nanchaku , sword or sai, when you can't use it on the street. What I can use on the street is my whole body. So why not just use that to defend myself and I train by doing kata and then applying the exact same movements in self defense applications. (Well at least I try, like I said I am still pretty green at all of this.)




Good point there too...let me ask you this, from your statement there. I have taken Tuite/ Kyusho strikes to the arms and neck and some to the chest, some may be very dangerous to strike, so I would imagine Joe would not strike anywhere too damaging, but how else will you know that these techniques actually work if you have padding on? You won't, so I say… why wear it? As far as a training tool in sparring, well sparring is again in my opinion counter productive to what I train for, I do not train to be a fighter, rather I train purely for self defense...if I have the time to stand there and go toe-to-toe with someone who is dancing around in front of me, I have the time to back away and hopefully RUN...that is self preservation right:-) If necessary I will defend myself as QUICKLY and EFFICIENTLY as possible. I may have to find a school near here and just try the bogu experience for myself and EMPTY my own cup, huh. I have in the past done the tournament style fighting so I guess I have an idea of what Bogu traing would be like, other than the full contact aspect.

Here is a question that just popped in my head, people like Jim Logue or anyone else that has been in this system for A LONG time, I wonder if they still put this equipment on or if Mr. Oyata still does? If not, and I would guess they do not, why not? How do they train? Once again I would have to guess they probably train by simply doing kata.

About the sai and nunchaku sword ect.
They help with the warrior mindset, there is something about practicing a kata for a weapon that has been done that way for 10 generations, its like walking to footsteps of the warrior. Also they are an extension of the empty hand, and help you to understand regular (empty hand)techniques. Also just tradition its about not losing part of the art, thats where the downfall begins.
About the Taika Oyata and Hanshi Logue using Bogu, Taika is somewhere in his mid-late 70's, but still has great technique, also Taika does not have to worry about many of his students getting a hit on him, he is very quick and I my self would be afraid to even try, in the bogu.
I know Hanshi Logue still does Bogu :)

Michael Bland
7th January 2005, 18:24
I don't know about walking in the footsteps of the warrior. I think that's just a personal thing. Admittedly I have never been overly interested in weapons training - seemed like it was a challenge enough to control my own body.

For me, training in weapons was more for practical usage - which is why I was interested more in bo/jo/tanbo type weapons that could be easily translated into something I might be able to use in real life which might be readily accessible like a stick or umbrella.

But after training with Robert in Mr. Oyata's group, I was introduced to the concept that training with the weapons really developed your bare hand fighting abilities. I'd like to explore that more than I have but I have seen some of it already.

Bringing the thread more back to the topic of bogu... ever tried weapons sparring without bogu? I wouldn't want to. It hurt like crap with the bogu on. Luckily I only did that once.

I really think anyone that thinks you don't feel strikes or don't feel in danger with the bogu on needs to put on the bogu and fight full contact. I have broken bones and certainly had my brain rattled around so badly I couldn't drive home on occasion. Trust me, you feel it, and it hurts. And when you are up against someone who is destroying you, there is danger.

CEB
7th January 2005, 18:52
I play some Kendo. In Kendo you start out without Bogu. You spend all your time learning footwork and waza. After a few months when you have some basics down Sensei puts you in Bogu. Then all your basics disappear. You don’t move the same with all that stuff on. You can’t see anything. It is an instant severe case of tunnel vision. You have no peripheral vision. You have to learn to move all over again.

I have never trained in karate bogu I reckon it would be the same kind of experience as far as relearning how control your body with all that stuff on. I have used koshiki gear. I liked the headgear you could see real good with that. The chest protectors may be considered too much protection by some of you. You can eat full power techniques. You may wind up on your back but you won’t break any ribs. It is like a white 2 inch thick rubber baseball catcher’s chest protector. But the way they did the scoring was still a stop and score a point system. I don’t know if Bogu kumite is the same or not. I saw guys in the pictures with flags so I assume so. I likewise assume in the dojo the matches are a good continuous type of randori.

Also in my martial art endeavors I found that really the good-looking techniques manifest themselves in contests between people of unequal ability. My best throws are done in kata and uchikomi. If I randori with someone who is an equal match for me it gets sloppy. It is just harder to get something in on someone good, thus things may look sloppy. I will take what I can get even if it is just a koka.


Karate, the of fighting without fighting. :laugh:

Timothy.G.B.
7th January 2005, 19:38
Robert:

Fortunately, I learned the "easy" way that, nothing is more dangerous than not knowing what I don't know. By the "easy way" I mean I had a patient teacher show me "what I didn't know I didn't know" instead of someone who wanted to do me harm show me :)

I am grateful for what I have learned from my teacher and I would never try to convince you to believe anything that I have to say. I guess I will just have to disagree with you on this one.

Respectfully,
Tim Black
Kokusai Shinjinbukan

johnst_nhb
7th January 2005, 20:48
Originally posted by Troll Basher
1) This tells me that he never did Bogu before. The helmets that are worn for Bogu are not “cushy” on the inside. They have stuff padding in them which is similar to an obi worn in MAs. Not exactly “soft”. Getting hit in the head with bogu on will not leave a bruise or knock your teeth out but you WILL feel it.
2) That’s not a bad idea but I think he needs to take it a step further and do some bogu. Knowing what it is like to get bumped around in a fight will help you to not freak out in a real situation…..
3) In Mr. Oyata’s dojo in Okinawa back in the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s, from what I understand Bogu was done every class. It was still done in the 1980’s after he moved to the US….Here are some photos from Okinawa and the US http://www.kushu.com/bogu.htm and here is an article on Bogu http://www.kushu.com/bogu_kumite.htm In my dojo we still do bogu almost every class…….

Hey Robert,

You said that you use bogu in almost every class...

Do you just use bogu for sparring or do you do drills/bunkai with bogu on? Can you shed some light?

We use bogu sparingly, but I want to have it more prevalent.

-j

Maddog Mitchell
7th January 2005, 22:18
This is actually turned out to be a very good thread.

We used to use Bogu not only for sparring full contact but we also did sabaki drills and Bubu bobbing and weaving drills while wearing Bogu. I do miss those days.

Mike Mitchell

johnst_nhb
7th January 2005, 22:22
Yeah, I go through phases where we use it and some where we do more of the kyokushin style sparring.

I like the kyokushin style sparring but I do want to do more with the bogu particularly with bunkai or drills...

j

Troll Basher
7th January 2005, 22:58
Originally posted by johnst_nhb
Hey Robert,

You said that you use bogu in almost every class...

Do you just use bogu for sparring or do you do drills/bunkai with bogu on? Can you shed some light?

We use bogu sparingly, but I want to have it more prevalent.

-j

We don’t use bogu for doing drills using tuite from kata. Doing tuite requires being able to grab and it’s pretty impossible with boxing gloves on.
A typical class is broken down like this; kata, technique drills, bogu not always done in that order but almost every class will have those in it.
I will also do drills with a different type of bogu. We use more of a boxing type head gear and MMA type gloves with open fingers. We use this for what I call “the sucker punch drill”. Each person stands arms length away and then one person throws a “sucker punch” and the other has to defend against it. I started doing this because I noticed people wouldn’t really attack in a realistic manner when just doing “drills” with no head gear. It kind of looked real but they knew deep down they weren’t going to bash the guys head in. Now they can throw a REAL punch and make as much contact as they want, if the guy doesn’t block he gets a good bonk on the head to remember the occasion. You would be surprised at the difference between using head gear and not for this drill.

Troll Basher
7th January 2005, 23:08
Originally posted by Timothy.G.B.
Robert:

Fortunately, I learned the "easy" way that, nothing is more dangerous than not knowing what I don't know. By the "easy way" I mean I had a patient teacher show me "what I didn't know I didn't know" instead of someone who wanted to do me harm show me :)

Respectfully,
Tim Black
Kokusai Shinjinbukan

Not sure what you are trying to say here....can you clarify it a bit?

johnst_nhb
7th January 2005, 23:13
I like the sucker punch drill!

Also, I should have been clear about the bogu glove thing-I was referring to just head and chest protectors.

We use the mma gloves too-they are great.

thanks!

j

Troll Basher
7th January 2005, 23:16
Originally posted by johnst_nhb
I like the sucker punch drill!

Also, I should have been clear about the bogu glove thing-I was referring to just head and chest protectors.

We use the mma gloves too-they are great.

thanks!

j

Before we used chest protectors but stopped. Now we only use the helmet and the gloves.

Troll Basher
7th January 2005, 23:22
Hopefully you can see the type of equipment we use in the photo.

Troll Basher
7th January 2005, 23:25
photo #2

Troll Basher
7th January 2005, 23:27
......and finally the dump.....

Troll Basher
7th January 2005, 23:29
last one.......

johnst_nhb
8th January 2005, 00:07
nice!

Michael Bland
8th January 2005, 01:31
Don't get the wrong impression. The blue belt in those photos is 1 nasty dude to spar against. I have seen him smear black belts much bigger and stronger than him. Funny to see hmi get dumped, though - Robert. Thanks for the photos.

By the way - I should be in Tokyo from 1/22 evening to 1/26. Any training possible Sunday thru Wed?

Troll Basher
8th January 2005, 01:43
Originally posted by Michael Bland

By the way - I should be in Tokyo from 1/22 evening to 1/26. Any training possible Sunday thru Wed?

GOOD! I'll warm up the bogu for ya. :D

Troll Basher
8th January 2005, 01:46
Originally posted by Michael Bland
Don't get the wrong impression. The blue belt in those photos is 1 nasty dude to spar against. I have seen him smear black belts much bigger and stronger than him.


True. He actually came in 2nd in a Kyokushin Tournament when he was a yellow belt fighting in the black belt division.

Daniel Son
8th January 2005, 15:15
The moment you hit the bag/makiwara you have feedback - you know directly whether or not you blow has power - you do not need your teacher's opinion as to the quality of the technique

I agree with that if that is what you are seeking, power…which is great. You do need your instructor to critique your form in order to make your technique better right? If not I could just pick up a book and copy the movements.


If you are working with someone who essentially is co-operating with you then there is a level of unreality which can not by avoided unless you experience some form of unrehearsed chaotic sparring.

I will just quote Joe instead of retyping all of the reply….


we have made the attacker try full force and the defender respond efficiently with the full technique--(note that I didn't say the defender uses full "FORCE" as it does not truly contain a hard/forceful thrusting motion with Kyusho/Tuite Jitsu).


As far as I am concerned a punch is not a punch until it actually hits something; up to that point it is simply a movement in the air.

I was referring to the grappling aspect of what most will interpret as a punch. That movement in the air is quite a “nice” feeling against your opponent.


Perfecting a technique involves more than polishing the body mechanics; in fact the critical aspect is what happens when it lands on an aggressive unco-operative opponent.

I agree. I don’t want someone to be compliant when I do a technique, it does me no good when they just go with it, or don’t attack realistically. I don’t try to hold anything back when I try to attack Joe and to my dismay I end up screaming like a little girl from his defense. Also as you state an aggressive uncooperative opponent, we cannot tell if our technique of Tuite/Kyusho Jutsu work properly on pads.


I don't know if you have ever seen the footage of the aikido master Koichi Tohei trying to throw a big fat journalist who would not fall for him. He couldn't do it, but when he displayed his art; with his students they all flew elegantly through the air. I have seen the same kind of thing happen with various masters of T'ai Chi Ch'uan.

No, I have never seen this footage but many other like it as well as some schools in my area. People just do what the instructor says and “amazingly” it works, well that is one thing I like about Joe’s class, one of the first things he told me was “if I can not prove it to you, don’t believe it”. I used to be in a school where you basically had to “loosen” up so the techniques would work and with Joe the harder I try to attack the harder it is on me when he defends.


1) Well your “question” and your opinion are based on something you have yet to do. I find it odd you have such an opinion on something you have yet to learn or actually do.

Okay, thanks for the explanation. I would have to say that my opinion is based on what I have been taught by Joe, he has stated that he never trained with bogu, nor did his teacher who was directly trained by Mr. Oyata. And after having him prove himself over and over again against any attack I can think of at the moment that Joe asks me or anyone else in the class to try against him and knowing he never did this type of sparring under Mr. Oyata I would have to respect what he teaches and why he doesn’t teach us to spar using Bogu, although I do like what you say about the sucker punch drill, for many people yes they will not attack properly, but as for me, for as much pain as Joe has inflicted on me you better believe I am trying to make contact….hehe, sorry Joe but you knew this already.


4) I suggested you read the article on bogu, if you read it and understood it this discussion would be over.
I have and I guess having an opinion other than what you believe is wrong.
I understand from what is written..Bogu is sport, not actual combat, while it does teach fighting at actual speed/timing. Full force blows are thrown; you can get hurt or knocked out. I will reiterate my view of fighting is different than self-defending.


We don’t use bogu for doing drills using tuite from kata.
That is my whole point of this topic, learning or performing tuite then later kyusho can’t be taught with gear on, you have to learn how the muscles move and how the body will naturally react. Sparring full contact is great and will teach you how to fight and how to move in a fight, block…punch…kick, but by doing this you CAN NOT use tuite or kyusho techniques with pads on. Tuite/Kyusho, the higher learning from the block/punch/kick mentality…would you agree? So, if it is the higher learned techniques, or hidden meanings of kata and how to apply them why would we revert back to the block/punch/kick way of things? It is like having cars and then going back to horse and buggy. Not that sparring isn’t fun and all or that hitting makiwara or heavy bag can give you powerful kicks and punches but the whole defending by weakening your opponent rather than being stronger keeps coming to mind, which is the essence of Tuite.
Tuite / Kyusho Jutsu is the "lazy man's" art as I have heard it called before. Which makes me chuckle, because by no means is this stuff easy to learn how to do, you have to be diligent in your practice of kata to be good with this and practicing on people over and over again. I would imagine this is why we have a small class and we learn out of gym at a local middle school, just teaching of pure self defense. Maybe if we would incorporate weapons, or kumite, you know, not the "boring" (as some say) kata over and over again followed by intense pain of the applications of these kata movements we would have more interest in our class.
I will say that yes Bogu and makiwara and weapons have a great place in tradition as well as being tools for whatever kind of training you seek, be it power, "walking in the warriors path" or whatever, but I simply want to know how to defend myself, I am not looking for trophies or to learn to fight. By the time I am 70-80 I will not be able to move like I do now, so why train like a fighter. I will however be able to do kata when I am 70 or 80. That is just me, I respect others desires.

Harry Cook
8th January 2005, 19:30
Daniel Son observed 'You do need your instructor to critique your form in order to make your technique better right?'
Yes this is true to a point, but without power the best form in the world is irrelevant when fighting is for real. You might have a beautifully polished movement but if it bounces off an opponent then the form is superficial. Let me give you a simple example. You could train a child to develop great form, however the system you train in defines 'good form', but if that child tried to apply it against a well muscled aggressive adult it simply wouldn't work - the lack of power would negate any technical advantage the form was supposed to offer.
When I was a member of Higaonna sensei's dojo In Tokyo in the 1970s we had a Chinese guy join. He was from Hong Kong and had done a lot of Wing Chun. he had a nice crisp tight style, but he was very thin and lightly built. He had a great belief that the efficiency of the Wing Chun movements would allow him to easily control the heavier Japanese and Western members of the dojo. It didn't happen; without the requisite power levels technique is nothing.
Harry Cook

amueller
8th January 2005, 20:02
Originally posted by Harry Cook
It didn't happen; without the requisite power levels technique is nothing.

So female karate-ka will have no chance at all?

Curious,
Andreas

Joe Logue
8th January 2005, 20:38
Hello Harry,
I see that you haven't totally understood my and Daniel's previous posts--well I'm not surprised, at least 75% of all the Chinese,Korean, Japanese and Okinawan "Martial Arts" taught today teach the "power" type of self-defense. I did it for many years, Daniel did it for many years, my teacher Stan Hart did it for many years BEFORE we learned Mr. Oyata's arts of Tuite & Kyushu Jitsu. I'm NOT saying we are better, just different. The main reason why I immediately stopped teaching "Karate" was because Stan would, for lack of a better word, "powerlessly" throw me around and strike me, disbalancing and making me weak & dizzy with techniques that he neither would pull back nor wind up for, not from far distances, but just inches away and by NOT tightenting up his body. This made me an instant convert--for me it was the best and most efficient MA I had ever seen,(for ME--maybe not others, no offense intended here).
Mr. Oyata used me in several seminars in Ohio in the past and did the exact same "powerless", efficient techniques to bounce me around as he chose. I felt great pain, dizzyness, had the wind knocked out of me by Mr. Oyata---WITHOUT THE USE OF "POWER". So--what did they do? They used proper bio mechanics upon correct areas,(not "pressure points", or "Dillman dot points", or "accupressure points", etc...).
All done WITHOUT the commonly practiced use of "POWER". To put it in layman's terms--we hit or manipulate an attacker's muscles and tendons so that we "get maximum affect with minimum effort".
Another common misconception, which I was 100% guilty of as well before I began my study of Tuite/Kyusho Jitsu, is to think that you must pound hard with "power" upon an attacker if he has large, pronounced muscles in order to move them/put them down. The fact of the matter is that Tuite/Kyusho Jitsu doesn't work well on relaxed muscles and tendons, thus anyone who is not threatening you, can't be hurt by it--you can't mis-use this art or abuse someone who is not trying to hurt you. With a "power" punch--you can wack the crap out of an innocent bystander who isn't even trying to hurt you,(such as the "Dillman technique" does--not Mr. Oyata's Kyusho--just hits someone hard).
BUT---as soon as someone is lifting their arm, leg, etc...they have to move & tighten up a muscle or muscles on their body/arm/abdomen--once they are pronounced, they are moved easier and effectively with Tuite/Kyusho Jitsu.
Harry and others here---I truly wish that you see that I understand where you're comming from, I trained like you/similar to you for many years as well, thus I couldn't even imagine that an art like Mr. Oyata's could exist. It does exist. Like many reading this, I was previously taught "power" movements to break bones, hit vital point nerves, twist and pull on muscles, hyperextend and lock joints--but there was a part of the arts that was missing--this is the "powerless" part of the arts that I found with Mr. Oyata's arts, taught to me for six years by Stan Hart of Mansfield, Ohio. This is an art that I'll be able to perform in my old age, when I don't have the "power" of a younger man---it will get better as I grow older, not diminish with age as it's not based upon "power".
I really don't want to be on the soapbox here further, so I truly hope this will help you Harry and others reading to understand that there is difference,(again--not necessarily better, just different), from how you hit with "power" and how we train to hit without it, without the common idea of "power".
Respectfully,
Joe Logue

Harry Cook
8th January 2005, 21:37
Andreas - if a female karate-ka uses a kick, punch, throw etc etc that is lacking power then her chances of survival are minimal in the real world. However females can and do develop strong techniques which work under pressure. One of my dan grades was attacked a few years ago - she is not large but she can hit hard - all that makiwara and bag work etc etc. She dropped the man who attacked her and escaped without injury.
Joe I do understand what you are saying, but my reservations come from the fact that this is practiced in a closed environment. I am certain that your students are sincere and train diligently, as I am sure you do with Oyata sensei, but in these situations there is always a large degree of unconscious compliance, as in Aikido.
Events such as the UFC, Muay Thai matches etc etc have shown time and again that once you sare faced with a very aggressive strong opponent sublety tends to go out of the window and basic things such as power, fighting spirit, pain tolerance etc etc become paramount. Of course technique matters, but once the adrenaline starts to flow other things are equally as important.
As a hypothetical situation, how would someone trained in kyusho jutsu do in something like the UFC or a Muay Thai match? Could they apply their techniques as you described your teacher or Oyata sensei did?
I am not trying to wind you up; I am genuinely interested in this kind of thing.
Harry Cook

Joe Logue
8th January 2005, 22:13
Harry--I'm going to give it one last try here and afterwhich, I'll finally just leave it to your judgement...
As both Daniel and myself have posted here, one should read into it and see that we don't train in an "enclosed environment" or have "unconscious compliance", I have seen this time and time again in many local karate clubs and joint manipulation classes. We don't do that--repeat--don't do that. Our art is not Aikido, or karate as taught in the modern fashion. That's why Stan immediately changed arts and I immediately changed arts and Daniel immediately changed arts. We didn't want the unrealistic and inefficient/ineffective training method.
To realistically answer your "Muay Tai/USC brawl" question--nobody could truly answer that until they were actually in that situation.
A four year old child could grab my leg, trip me, I could fall and snap my neck and be handicapped or die instantly. If I was confronted by any person, of any art, of any age, I would simply try to survive--not "win" a fight , just simply try to preserve my life.
If a fast moving bicycle is comming towards you, you jump out of the way, if a fast moving bus is comming towards you--what do you do???---THE SAME THING---jump out of the way---you try to preserve your life.
So I can be beaten by any MA practioner or a four year child--but in either situation, I'll do the same reaction---try to preserve my life.
I'll now leave it up to you Harry to conclude your own opinions.
Regards,
Joe Logue

Troll Basher
9th January 2005, 00:16
Originally posted by Daniel Son


1) …. I would have to say that my opinion is based on what I have been taught by Joe, he has stated that he never trained with bogu, nor did his teacher who was directly trained by Mr. Oyata.
2) And after having him prove himself over and over again against any attack I can think of at the moment that Joe asks me or anyone else in the class to try against him and knowing he never did this type of sparring under Mr. Oyata I would have to respect what he teaches and why he doesn’t teach us to spar using Bogu,
3) although I do like what you say about the sucker punch drill, for many people yes they will not attack properly, but as for me, for as much pain as Joe has inflicted on me you better believe I am trying to make contact….hehe, sorry Joe but you knew this already.

1) I see….he trained directly under Mr. Oyata…..you mean like me, Tashi Jim Logue, Kyoushi Linguist, Kyoshi Stark and so many others that are STILL direct students. But I guess their opinion doesn’t mean much to you then.
2) Prove himself in class doing “drills”? I wouldn’t call that proving oneself.
3) Uh huh…… :rolleyes:




Originally posted by Daniel Son

I have and I guess having an opinion other than what you believe is wrong.
I understand from what is written..Bogu is sport, not actual combat, while it does teach fighting at actual speed/timing. Full force blows are thrown; you can get hurt or knocked out. I will reiterate my view of fighting is different than self-defending.

Like I said before….. You have never done bogu, never learned it and therefore don’t know the lessons it teaches you.


Originally posted by Daniel Son

1) That is my whole point of this topic, learning or performing tuite then later kyusho can’t be taught with gear on, you have to learn how the muscles move and how the body will naturally react. Sparring full contact is great and will teach you how to fight and how to move in a fight, block…punch…kick,
2) but by doing this you CAN NOT use tuite or kyusho techniques with pads on.

1) No, your topic of this thread is and I quote: “my reason for writing is that I have spoke with my teacher, Joe, about Bogu training and he, in his opinion, really can't see the benefits of training with this padding on.”

You have confused one type of exercise for learning a certain type of techniques with a different type of exercise for learning a different set of techniques.

2) Sorry to be rude but that statement is illogical and lacks an ounce of common sense. I wouldn’t try to high jump with hockey skates on, why would I try to do tuite with gloves on….kinda dumb.




Originally posted by Daniel Son

Tuite/Kyusho, the higher learning from the block/punch/kick mentality…would you agree? So, if it is the higher learned techniques, or hidden meanings of kata and how to apply them why would we revert back to the block/punch/kick way of things?

Like I said before…. You have confused one type of exercise for learning a certain type of techniques with a different type of exercise for learning a different set of techniques. And since you have never done/learned bogu you can’t understand what lessons it has to offer and how in many ways it overlaps with other types of technique.




Originally posted by Daniel Son

1) It is like having cars and then going back to horse and buggy.
2) Not that sparring isn’t fun…...

1) No, in many ways it’s actually like taking you Ferrari out of first gear and running the piss out of it.
2) How would you know…..you have never done bogu



Originally posted by Daniel Son

Tuite / Kyusho Jutsu is the "lazy man's" art as I have heard it called before. Which makes me chuckle, because by no means is this stuff easy to learn how to do, you have to be diligent in your practice of kata to be good with this and practicing on people over and over again. I would imagine this is why we have a small class and we learn out of gym at a local middle school, just teaching of pure self defense. Maybe if we would incorporate weapons, or kumite, you know, not the "boring" (as some say) kata over and over again followed by intense pain of the applications of these kata movements we would have more interest in our class.
I will say that yes Bogu and makiwara and weapons have a great place in tradition as well as being tools for whatever kind of training you seek, be it power, "walking in the warriors path" or whatever, but I simply want to know how to defend myself, I am not looking for trophies or to learn to fight. By the time I am 70-80 I will not be able to move like I do now, so why train like a fighter. I will however be able to do kata when I am 70 or 80. That is just me, I respect others desires.

Judging from your comments and lack of interest in the information different people( some of them senior to you, your teacher AND his teacher) have provided you on a certain aspect of training that you have NEVER actually done I think your whole purpose for posting this thread was not really to illicit opinions but to espouse your own take on things you have NEVER actually done and then have your teacher chime in with marathon length posts with his opinion about something he too has NEVER actually done.

I will go out on a limb and presume you think Mr. Oyata is a good martial artist……you ever wonder how he got to be able to become one……not from doing one or two aspects of train but from doing them ALL. You don’t just train the right side of your body neglecting the left…did Mr. Oyata tell you to not train using bogu or that it was bad….I doubt it…..no scratch that I am about 100% sure he didn’t and won’t.
I do think it’s funny that people that have “lose” connections or were “formerly” connected to Mr. Oyata’s Assoc. try to relay what his concepts on training are.
Oh well, if you and your teacher(s) want to use Mr. Oyata’s name and claim you are practicing 100% of what he preaches there is nothing I can do to stop you but I do find it interesting that you are no longer connected to his Assoc.

Troll Basher
9th January 2005, 00:21
Mr. Cook,

Joe Logue, Daniel Son, and their teacher are not connected to Mr. Oyata . Joe Logues teacher was most like a distant student at one time but presently has no connection to Mr. Oyata......


Originally posted by Harry Cook
I am certain that your students are sincere and train diligently, as I am sure you do with Oyata sensei,
Harry Cook

Troll Basher
9th January 2005, 00:31
Originally posted by Daniel Son

I agree. I don’t want someone to be compliant when I do a technique, it does me no good when they just go with it, or don’t attack realistically. I don’t try to hold anything back when I try to attack Joe and to my dismay I end up screaming like a little girl from his defense. Also as you state an aggressive uncooperative opponent, we cannot tell if our technique of Tuite/Kyusho Jutsu work properly on pads........................
No, I have never seen this footage but many other like it as well as some schools in my area. People just do what the instructor says and “amazingly” it works, well that is one thing I like about Joe’s class, one of the first things he told me was “if I can not prove it to you, don’t believe it”. I used to be in a school where you basically had to “loosen” up so the techniques would work and with Joe the harder I try to attack the harder it is on me when he defends.



And after having him prove himself over and over again against any attack I can think of at the moment that Joe asks me or anyone else in the class to try against him and knowing he never did this type of sparring under Mr. Oyata I would have to respect what he teaches and why he doesn’t teach us to spar using Bogu, although I do like what you say about the sucker punch drill, for many people yes they will not attack properly, but as for me, for as much pain as Joe has inflicted on me you better believe I am trying to make contact….hehe, sorry Joe but you knew this already.


I have and I guess having an opinion other than what you believe is wrong.
I understand from what is written..Bogu is sport, not actual combat, while it does teach fighting at actual speed/timing. Full force blows are thrown; you can get hurt or knocked out. I will reiterate my view of fighting is different than self-defending.



And I submit to you the words from your own teacher……..

Viewpoint:
Too Much Ado About Pressure Points
By Stan Hart
Pressure points have been oversold. I don’t mean to suggest that they don’t work or that I don’t teach them. But go to almost any pressure point seminar. How are the points taught? The instructor selects a student and then asks him to do a specific technique, to grab him by the wrist or volunteer an arm. The point is then demonstrated and the victim falls to the ground momentarily stunned or in temporary pain. Very impressive.
But these scenarios are not real life. The situations were set up. Students or their limbs were positioned. This is not at all what happens in a real fight.
Too many are selling the idea of a martial arts shortcut -- the idea that by learning pressure points or a theory of pressure point activation (chi or neurological theory, etc.), a student can defeat an opponent by using them. This is incorrect, even dangerous.
It’s true that pressure points if hit (or otherwise manipulated) alone or in combinations can often cause pain, numbs limbs, stun or even cause unconsciousness. But these vulnerable points are small and are often protected by other areas of the body – something difficult to target much less hit when arms and bodies are shifting and moving in a conflict. In addition, emotions and pumping adrenaline can also override the effects of hitting or manipulating these points.
Thus in real conflict situations, just knowing pressure points and how to apply them rarely gives anyone a unique advantage. And don’t depend on them if your opponent outweighs you by a significant amount. This doesn’t mean you can’t stun or distract someone to help set up a technique, but it is the technique itself that is most critical.
In my view the essence of martial arts is not about pressure points, but instead the ability to attain control, then maneuver yourself and/or your opponent into position to do an effective technique - which then may include pressure points. Thus, the real art is the art of controlling your opponent, his or her body and position -- to set it up for a throw, a joint technique, a strike, or some combination depending on the techniques in your art.
This ability is what marks the true expert, or the truly experienced. These people may also include their knowledge of pressure points and how to apply them within the arsenal of their techniques. But the pressure points are secondary, used to enhance the effectiveness of other techniques, and/or as finishing techniques. The art, however, must get you to that position first.

Harry Cook
9th January 2005, 03:40
Thank you for the correction re Oyata sensei.
Interesting article by Mr. Hart, control leading to a strike etc, pretty much the way I see karate.
Yours,
Harry Cook

Joe Logue
9th January 2005, 05:05
Robert, enough is enough...
1. I had no idea that Steve made this thread, until AFTER he did it & notified me--you have misinterpreted his true intention here. He is a nice man, responsible, hard worker a dedicated practicioner and a loving family man. Your "marathon" rude posts are not answering his true intentions correctly.
As for misinterpreting my intention by you--thinking that I wanted to "CHIME IN" is waaay out there buddy. Your rudeness is uncalled for. I simply am trying to explain to others--not to you--what we practice. At the very least you could have private messaged us to discuss it further, but, obviously that's your style. A gentleman would appologize on these statements--but I can see that we can forget that possibility from you. We have to just consider the source of these rude comments from which they came. Pity, I had hoped that from my past three way messages between yourself, me and Jim Logue that you wouldn't do this.
2. Steve just wanted to know if Bogu is used by others to practice Tuite/Kyusho Jitsu--obviously not, if he didn't state it clearly enough for YOU, I'm sure there was a better way to inform of that than being RUDE--he has a little less than two years experience in my class, so he's curious, obviously others who posted here aren't posting rudely to Steve like this--you are not above the same courtesy that we have all been showing each other here.
3. As for Stan and his relationship with Mr. Oyata--I know personally why he is no longer with him--it has nothing to do with the art itself. I know what happened, I saw it and it is a private matter between Mr. Oyata and Stan--I'll let it go at that. Stan learned the "Full Package" as you stated earlier, just without "BOGU"--as I've stated here several times.
4. It is my understanding that Mr. Oyata taught some great people back in the early 80's superb techniques and self defense methodology. After the George Dillman Fiasco--Mr. Oyata stopped teaching some techniques to the newer students. My learning from Stan Hart came from that original; early 80's methodology that was passed onto Stan--to infer anything else on that is not right.
Just because I didn't learn from Mr. Oyata directly, doesn't mean that I didn't learn the method or can't in turn, pass it onto my students--the same as others who joined after the early 80's may or may not have learned the method totally.
Enough bickering and rudeness Robert, let's act like gentlemen and be good examples to our students.
From the bottom of my heart ,I say to you Robert and to all who read this--that I am 100% sure that Steve had only good intentions starting this thread,(most here have enjoyed the thread as stated in their posts), and I personally did not plan on "Chiming In" nor do I wish to continue non-constructive bickering.
Sincerely,
Joe Logue

Troll Basher
9th January 2005, 06:31
Originally posted by Joe Logue

1. I had no idea that Steve made this thread, until AFTER he did it & notified me

Fair enough


Originally posted by Joe Logue

He is a nice man, responsible, hard worker a dedicated practicioner and a loving family man.

I don’t care.
My interests are what and how he posts on this subject.



Originally posted by Joe Logue


Your "marathon" rude posts are not answering his true intentions correctly.

I think you will find my answers pretty brief and to the point. As for being rude….well my politeness goes pretty deep when I feel people are sincere in discussing a topic, however, when they seem to want to pick issue with every response to the answers you provide for their questions on a subject they know NOTHING about then my politeness kind of goes away.



Originally posted by Joe Logue

2. Steve just wanted to know if Bogu is used by others to practice Tuite/Kyusho Jitsu--obviously not,

Somehow I doubt that. Let’s see….how do we do tuite with boxing gloves on. :rolleyes: a bit of a no brainer I would think. Here is his originally post that started this thread:


Originally posted by Daniel Son
Bogu training

I am a student of Joe Louge's in Erie, Pa. who's lineage is Stan Hart of Mansfield Ohio who had trained under Mr. Oyata for sometime, anyways my reason for writing is that I have spoke with my teacher, Joe, about Bogu training and he, in his opinion, really can't see the benefits of training with this padding on. In his explaintion to me about this, he says that training with pads on and not being able to "feel" the technique is like training with ineffiecent movements while doing kata.
I guess I can also see the point Joe is trying to make about when you spar, you are fighting and not defending, so you are trying to score or hit and by doing so (fighting, getting into a stance and moving around) you are going to in turn try to use power in your punches and be in an offensive state (weakened state) rather than defensive. He has us practice kata over and over, which I love doing, then he will show us the applications to kata and we will then break up in pairs and work these techniques. We do not spar at all. He also tells me that he is training us as he was trained by Stan, who was trained the same way from Oyata, with no Bogu Kumite.

Comments?


Daniel

I see no reference to him asking whether tuite/kyusho is used……and if you had bothered to read my statement :
Like I said before…. You have confused one type of exercise for learning a certain type of techniques with a different type of exercise for learning a different set of techniques. And since you have never done/learned bogu you can’t understand what lessons it has to offer and how in many ways it overlaps with other types of technique.



Originally posted by Joe Logue

if he didn't state it clearly enough for YOU, I'm sure there was a better way to inform of that than being RUDE--he has a little less than two years experience in my class, so he's curious, obviously others who posted here aren't posting rudely to Steve like this--you are not above the same courtesy that we have all been showing each other here.

I found his attitude to be that of having some sort of agenda for this thread since he, you and your teacher have never done bogu, don’t know the lessons it has to offer, but instead you and your student espouse your opinions and act as if they are more enlightened.
Using your logic is like me telling Neil Armstong what it’s like to walk on the moon.


Originally posted by Joe Logue

3. As for Stan and his relationship with Mr. Oyata--I know personally why he is no longer with him--it has nothing to do with the art itself. I know what happened, I saw it and it is a private matter between Mr. Oyata and Stan--I'll let it go at that. Stan learned the "Full Package" as you stated earlier, just without "BOGU"--as I've stated here several times.

Private matter uh……right…..
“Stan learned the full package” did he??? Funny….I guess the rest of Mr. Oyata’s students that have been training with him for 2,3, or even 4 decades just aren’t that fast since most of them are still learning from him.


Originally posted by Joe Logue

4. It is my understanding that Mr. Oyata taught some great people back in the early 80's superb techniques and self defense methodology. After the George Dillman Fiasco--Mr. Oyata stopped teaching some techniques to the newer students. My learning from Stan Hart came from that original; early 80's methodology that was passed onto Stan--to infer anything else on that is not right.

“Mr. 6 Seminars” Dillman was around in 1984…he was one of those guys that thought he got “the full package” as well…..
My “sempai”/mentor has been with him since 1968ish….he still thinks bogu has lessons to be taught…


Originally posted by Joe Logue

Just because I didn't learn from Mr. Oyata directly, doesn't mean that I didn't learn the method or can't in turn, pass it onto my students--the same as others who joined after the early 80's may or may not have learned the method totally.

Stan may have gotten a bit, but like I said before he hasn’t been around as long as most of Mr. Oyata’s personal students. Given that information plus their first hand knowledge on the subject I would take their opinion over Stan’s.



Originally posted by Joe Logue

Enough bickering and rudeness Robert, let's act like gentlemen and be good examples to our students.

My students know what I am like…..I am sure they know I can be a “gentleman” when the situation calls for it.


Originally posted by Joe Logue

From the bottom of my heart ,I say to you Robert and to all who read this--that I am 100% sure that Steve had only good intentions starting this thread,…… nor do I wish to continue non-constructive bickering.
Sincerely,
Joe Logue

Well here is how this post has gone so far person A that has never done bogu asked for comments on it, person B that has done a decent amount of it replied, person A then began to promote his "well informed" (sic) opinion on bogu that he has never actually done, and come to find out only has about 2 years training. Person B gave a few links and some examples based on actually doing bogu to support his reasons. Person A gets in a huff.

Troll Basher
9th January 2005, 08:13
Originally posted by Harry Cook

1) ….but my reservations come from the fact that this is practiced in a closed environment.
2) I am certain that your students are sincere and train diligently, as I am sure you do with Oyata sensei, but in these situations there is always a large degree of unconscious compliance, as in Aikido.
3) Events such as the UFC, Muay Thai matches etc etc have shown time and again that once you sare faced with a very aggressive strong opponent sublety tends to go out of the window and basic things such as power, fighting spirit, pain tolerance etc etc become paramount. Of course technique matters, but once the adrenaline starts to flow other things are equally as important.
4) As a hypothetical situation, how would someone trained in kyusho jutsu do in something like the UFC or a Muay Thai match?
5) Could they apply their techniques as you described your teacher or Oyata sensei did?
I am not trying to wind you up; I am genuinely interested in this kind of thing.
Harry Cook

1) and the keyword there is “practice”. Just as the military practices on a rifle range they also practice in live fire exercises as well….both useful but for different reasons.
2) I am actually curious about why they (Daniel & Joe) are still throwing Mr. Oyata’s name around…..since they do not and have not trained with him, their teacher had some falling out with him and for what reasons we are not privy to. Their own teacher doesn’t even mention he teaches Mr. Oyata’s style on his website.
Stan Hart’s URL: http://www.hakuda.com/main.htm
3) Bob Sapp is a good example of power and yet he has been beaten by people that have less power…..but more skill. If power and strength were the main factors for winning then Bob sapp should never lose, and yet he does. Another example is Akebono vs Royce Gracie.
4) You mean the so called “kyusho” you see on so many internet mpegs??? No, their kyusho would not work. For the most part they are just bad actors and nothing more.

Could someone that is trained use strikes that are “kyusho-eque” or joint locks that are “tuite-esque” be used….yes, and they have been. Akebono vs Royce Gracie….Gracie won by a wrist lock.
5) Don’t know….never really thought about it.

Joe Logue
9th January 2005, 13:06
As expected, another marathon rude and crude answer.What a "great representative" you are of Mr. Oyata's art...picky and shameful.
There was a better way to discuss this than was done by you, such as the common courtesy shown by all the others who already posted here.
Not "special courtesy"--just common, everyday, basic courtesy--what a "great example" one sets...
If you can't play well with others--don't play at all.
Get a life.
To all reading this--it's quite simple--I teach Steve Tuite & Kuysho Jitsu--thus his intention and mine later was based upon bogu training just with these two methods only--please re-read our posts with that simple intention in mind and I'm sure you'll see that someone has blown this waaaay out of porportion in a juvenile manner.
It has been reapetively written here by Daniel and myself that we have never trained in bogu--thus Daniel was curious, that's all.
No need to get in a huff over it.
Common courtesy on a public forum allows us all to ask questions and to politely state our opinions --and as "mature adults" we should show the same common courtesy to all others here.
For the last time--I'm out of this non-constructive, petty bickering here. It is just a waste of our time.
Best regards to all,
Joe Logue

Troll Basher
9th January 2005, 14:04
*sigh* Your constant crying “foul” gets old…..try and stick to the topic.
Like many others on the Internet you can’t support your opinion or answer the questions I have asked you so you decided to take “the moral high ground” and act as if you have been insulted or are being picked on and get into a huff, if the person who doesn’t agree with you they are rude, or out of line for producing information to support what they say.
That tactic has been done many times on BBs…..you should read “Sharp Phils Guide to Internet Trolls” because that kind of tactic comes right out there.
Since I have given you information about Bogu, introduced some URL for further information I feel I have “ponied up” and tried to show you my point of view. However, you and your student disagreed with me….and that’s fine. But you based your opinions on something you have yet to learn let alone do. I find that odd. Hell, I even put up stuff written by your own teacher that didn’t really jive with what you were saying.


So here are my questions again that you seemed to fly right over:

To your knowledge did Mr. Oyata say doing bogu was a useless form of training?
Is that why you disagree with doing bogu?
Because, if he has said that it would be news to me and many others.
If he never said it, and since you, your student, and your teacher have never done it what is it you base your opinion on?
You see I, like many others, base my opinion on the experiences I have had….not ones I have not.
Why is it that you and Daniel (who is Steve BTW?) seem to use Mr. Oyata’s name on the Internet a lot…..why? You are not his students, your teacher is no longer connected to him....and barely was before....he doesn’t even mention him on his website. So why is it you would use his name???

Troll Basher
9th January 2005, 14:26
Ok this is weird…..I was looking through my PMs because Daniel’s comment sounded familiar…..turns out he sent me the following PM (below) last August….tell me if they don’t read almost exactly verbatim……Interesting that he would post almost the exact same PM to me as a thread…

His PM from 08-05-2004



Daniel Son
Member



Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 32

Bogu training

Mr. Rousselot, I am a student of Joe Louge's in Erie, Pa. who's lineage is Stan Hart of Mansfield Ohio who had trained under Mr. Oyata for sometime, anyways my reason for writing to you is that I have spoke with my teacher, Joe, about Bogu training and he, in his opinion, really can't see the benefits of training with this padding on. In his explaintion to me about this, he says that training with pads on and not being able to "feel" the technique is like training with ineffiecent movements while doing kata. My arguement is basically the same as yours....

Comments from Troll Basher:
quote:The benefits of doing full contact bogu sparring:

Real speed and real timing is used

Full power blows are thrown- “nothing is pulled”- basically read as think and move fast or get pounded on.

Because of the protective gear nobody gets seriously injured.....only the stuff knocked out of them a wee bit
......................................................


I guess I can also see the point Joe is trying to make about when you spar, you are fighting and not defending, so you are trying to score or hit and by doing so (fighting, getting into a stance and moving around) you are going to in turn try to use power in your punches and be in an offensive state (weakened state) rather than defensive. He has us practice kata over and over, which I love doing, then he will show us the applications to kata and we will then break up in pairs and work these techniques. We do not spar at all. He also tells me that he is training us as he was trained by Stan, who was trained the same way from Oyata, with no Bogu Kumite.

Comments?

I thank you for your time Mr. Rousselot
Respectfully
Daniel
__________________
Daniel Son (Sonnenmeier)

08-05-2004 11:01 PM



His first post on this threa from Jan. 4, 2005



Daniel Son
Member

Registered: Mar 2003
Location: Pennsylvannia
Posts: 32
Bogu training question

Bogu training

I am a student of Joe Louge's in Erie, Pa. who's lineage is Stan Hart of Mansfield Ohio who had trained under Mr. Oyata for sometime, anyways my reason for writing is that I have spoke with my teacher, Joe, about Bogu training and he, in his opinion, really can't see the benefits of training with this padding on. In his explaintion to me about this, he says that training with pads on and not being able to "feel" the technique is like training with ineffiecent movements while doing kata.
I guess I can also see the point Joe is trying to make about when you spar, you are fighting and not defending, so you are trying to score or hit and by doing so (fighting, getting into a stance and moving around) you are going to in turn try to use power in your punches and be in an offensive state (weakened state) rather than defensive. He has us practice kata over and over, which I love doing, then he will show us the applications to kata and we will then break up in pairs and work these techniques. We do not spar at all. He also tells me that he is training us as he was trained by Stan, who was trained the same way from Oyata, with no Bogu Kumite.

Comments?


Daniel


__________________
Daniel Son (Sonnenmeier)

Old Post 01-04-2005 09:37 PM

Troll Basher
9th January 2005, 14:40
Originally posted by Joe Logue

1) To all reading this--it's quite simple--I teach Steve Tuite & Kuysho Jitsu--thus his intention and mine later was based upon bogu training just with these two methods only--please re-read our posts with that simple intention in mind ……….

Odd how I saw no mention of this until page 3 of this thread…..
Anyway, I think anyone reading this thread with an ounce of common sense is thinking…”why would someone even think of practicing tuite/kyusho with bogu equipment on?…wearing bogu gloves alone would make practicing tuite useless…not to mention kyusho”

Joe Logue
9th January 2005, 17:29
Thank you for asking with common coutesy this time, I'll answer your questions as best I can and perhaps we can put this behind us.
Nobody was "crying", just a wish to have mutual respect.
No--of course Mr. Oyata never said not to train with Bogu.
Please re-read my posts---As I stated before,Stan was never taught Bogu by Mr. Oyata, thus he didn't teach it to me, it's that simple.
Without Bogu--Mr. Oyata taught him the best type of self defense that I have seen upto now. Thus, I wanted to learn it.
Stan was a direct student of Mr. Oyata until about 1991 or 1992 I believe. They split due to a difference of opinion of a private matter.
They probably won't admit it here or talk much about Stan
since he left Mr. Oyata's organization over a decade ago, but if you were to ask some of the original students of Mr. Oyata from the early 80's I'm sure they at least tell you he did study from Mr. Oyata. Thus, anyone who learned from Stan, i.e. myself, learned from someone who learned from Mr. Oyata--just that simple. Thus if I "use Mr. Oyata's name", he was obviously my teacher's teacher, just as I would say the name of my old college professor's teacher if the topic arose--no disrespect intended whatsoever to Mr. Oyata or your organization.
Stan learned Tuite & Kyusho Jitsu from Mr. Oyata and Stan always had the highest respect for Mr. Oyata and his method of self defense.
I met Mr. Oyata several times in the late 80's with Stan and I have the same high esteem for him--thus in one of my previous posts here I said that it was a priviledge to meet the greatest living martial artist that I know--Mr. Seiyu Oyata. If Mr. Oyata, yourself, Harry, or others in this world uses Bogu---great---glad you enjoy it so well, continue with everyone's blessings.
If I "espouse" an opinion that I don't think Bogu is right for the type of training that was passed onto Stan and then to me, then that's my right to do it--actually we're both in agreement on Bogu & kata interpretation drills don't mix.
I'll just leave it all at that and hope the proper intentions that were originally intended here will be considered.
Best regards,
Joe Logue

Doug Daulton
9th January 2005, 18:17
Originally posted by Daniel Son When you hit the bag or makiwara what are you trying to do? Perfect the technique, how does the board or bag give feedback?Daniel,

This quote alone shows that one of the following is true: [list=1] You have not spent any significant time with the machiwara or heavy bag.
Your teacher did not spend much time explaining it to you.
If you not #1 & #2, you were not paying attention to either the machiwara or your teacher.
[/list=1] I mean no disrespect, seeing the machiwara as antiquated or quaint is a common rookie mistake. Many of my students have dismissed the machiwara only to later learn to love and respect it.

Properly used, the machiwara will teach you 80% of what you need to know about power delivery. The remaining 20% is divided equally between moving, yet inanimate targets (heavy bag and/or focus mitts) and yakusoku or jiyu kumite (with or without bogu).

In my misspent youth :), I spent about a year fighting 4 times a week at full speed/contact wearing only 8oz. boxing gloves and boxing head gear. I was away at college, an ikkyu, and full of "piss and vinegar". 4 hours from my home dojo, the only quality guys I could find to train with were a Kyokushinkai green belt and a Kobayashi Shorin-ryu shodan. Both equally young and foolish. :)

I learned a great deal about fighting in that year of getting knocked about and knocking others about. I was laid out cold at least 3 times.

At first blush, this might seem to support your theory. However, it does not. I've bumped into those guys in the years since. We all laughed about that time and consider it very valuable. We also consider ourselves extremely lucky.


Back then, all of us had enough waza and power to have hurt one another very, very badly, even through the bogu. The reason we did not?

Machiwara.

We all had been taught proper use of the machiwara very early in our training and had about 5 years of steady machiwara practice before we started beating on one another unsupervised by our betters.

Because of the machiwara (not in spite of it), we were able to learn a great deal about applying power in the chaos of jiyu kumite. Our learning was greatly accelerated by the strong base machiwara had established. Also because of machiwara, we had the control to go full speed without causing significant injury to the folks with whom we trained.

Machiwara, when done correctly, develops <a href="http://www.thebestlinks.com/Muscle_memory.html#Definition_and_Explanation">proprioceptive memory</a> and kinesthetic awareness. In the simplest terms, these two skills allow a person to consciously and effectively apply techniques (tsuki, keri, etc.) while moving through 3D space also known as "the real world".

By allowing unfettered striking without concern for hurting your partner, the machiwara teaches one to develop power which is clean. If you "cheat" the machiwara, you will hurt yourself badly. Wrist, bicep, tricep and shoulder injuries are all the result of applying more power to the machiwara than your waza can currently manage.

Think of the difference between a live, sparking electrical main and a common household outlet.

The live electrical main may have infinitely more power, but it is useless and dangerous power because it cannot be contained and/or directed. Without the machiwara, a student is a raw live wire, more likely to unintentionally hurt themselves or others than to effectively apply the power they have. With solid machiwara training, you become the common household electrical outlet. Your power can cleanly and effectively applied to any device (waza) you chose to plug in to it.

I hope this helps.

Good luck in your training.

Doug Daulton
9th January 2005, 18:37
Joe and Robert,

Clearly you are both passionate about this debate. As your moderator, I am telling you both to cut out the personal invectives and focus entirely on the technical questions at hand.

Both of you have valid points. But any reader coming into at the end (as I did) can see that you both got your keiko-gi bottoms in a twist, stopped discussing and started defending along the way.

So, take a deep breath. Sit in seiza a second and I'll call "Hajime" so the debate can resume. Else, it is "Yame" and you are both disqualified. ;)

No disrespect intended, just trying to bring a little levity and perspective to this thread.

Best in your training.

Harry Cook
9th January 2005, 21:18
Hello Doug,
nice to 'speak' to you again. I think part of the problem is that we all get caught up in the fascination of technique and the variations thereof and tend to under value the simple things like power, speed, strength etc etc - they are seen to be less important in some way. Obviously fighting spirit comes into it as well - it is the whole package which is important. Also important is knowing your 'arena' ;as Mr. Rousselot pointed out Akebono lost when fighting in the UFC - he was out of his arena, and so lost to an armlock (which is of course a technical aspect), but if the match had been by sumo rules then things would probably have been different.
Fighting in armour, without armour, standing up, on the ground etc etc are all important experiences to have. Similarly knowing what it feels like to actually hit something hard and what it feels like to be hit hard is important. Of course understanding the techniques in kata and where to apply those techniques is also necessary.
This debate reminds me of the story of the blind men and the elephant - when asked to identify what they were touching, some said a tree trunk, others a sail etc etc. They were partially right, but without a wider more comprehensive view they were led into error. This is essentially what I meant by a closed environment, a flaw we are all guilty of to some extent.
Harry Cook

Troll Basher
9th January 2005, 23:33
Originally posted by Joe Logue

1) No--of course Mr. Oyata never said not to train with Bogu.
2) Please re-read my posts---As I stated before,Stan was never taught Bogu by Mr. Oyata, thus he didn't teach it to me, it's that simple.
3) Without Bogu--Mr. Oyata taught him the best type of self defense that I have seen upto now. Thus, I wanted to learn it.
4) Stan was a direct student of Mr. Oyata until about 1991 or 1992 I believe. They split due to a difference of opinion of a private matter.
They probably won't admit it here or talk much about Stan
since he left Mr. Oyata's organization over a decade ago, but if you were to ask some of the original students of Mr. Oyata from the early 80's I'm sure they at least tell you he did study from Mr. Oyata.

5) Thus if I "use Mr. Oyata's name", he was obviously my teacher's teacher, just as I would ay the name of my old college professor's teacher if the topic arose--no disrespect intended whatsoever to Mr. Oyata or your organization.
6) Stan learned Tuite & Kyusho Jitsu from Mr. Oyata and Stan always had the highest respect for Mr. Oyata and his method of self defense.
7) If I "espouse" an opinion that I don't think Bogu is right for the type of training that was passed onto Stan and then to me, then that's my right to do it—
8) actually we're both in agreement on Bogu & kata interpretation drills don't mix.


1) I didn’t think he would have.
2) Oh, I understood your posts alright. I just couldn’t figure out why you were saying something was not useful that you have never learned or done.
3) That statement leads me to another question. If it is the best type of self-defense you have ever seen up to now then why do you study “Hakuda”? ….and not to detour too far from the topic….I read the following on Stan Hart’s website:

One of the unique elements of Hakuda is the very dangerous technique (a) Kinsho-jitsu, a method of hitting and kicking "forbidden" places of the human anatomy. The basics of Kinsho-jitsu is one of the subjects covered in the ancient martial arts book called the Bubishi.
(b) Another unique quality of Hakuda is that the seizing and striking (including kicking) techniques are both simultaneous and interchangeable, that is to say that the hands and feet work together in unison, and the arm movements that are necessary for self-defense, are used for both seizing and striking. Many of these arm and hand movements are used in most Korean Hyung, and in Japanese and Okinawan Karate kata. This is more than a coincidence, because these arts are rooted in China as well.

a) Seems like he is talking about “kyusho” here but uses an incorrect Japanese word to describe it.
b) Here he seems to elude to the art of tuite without actually calling it that.

4) I can’t comment on Stan’s reasons for leaving but I have seen others that have left Mr. Oyata’s Assoc. for “personal reasons” and 99.99% of it was because their ego got in the way of their training.
5) You seem to use it a lot for someone that was never a direct student, and whose teacher was actually a “seminar student” of his. Your teacher Stan Hart doesn’t mention it (not that he needs to) so I am wondering why you feel the need to.
6) Well if you are on the receiving end it’s pretty hard not to respect it.
7) As I stated several times before, you basically have nothing to base your opinion on so I am wondering why you think it is a valid opinion….I based my opinions on having actually done bogu, what I was told and taught by my seniors in the in Mr. Oyata’s Assoc. as well as Mr. Oyata himself…..the person you claim to respect so highly.
8) Who is “we”? It’s certainly not me. There are many aspects of bogu and kata interpretation drills that overlap….body movement, body positioning, footwork, hooking techniques, covers, strikes..etc…. There are plenty of things.

Bustillo, A.
10th January 2005, 12:16
Originally posted by chizikunbo

.... there is something about practicing a kata for a weapon that has been done that way for 10 generations, its like walking to footsteps of the warrior. :)


Is there...?

'footsteps of a warrior,' ... Hmm. Guess some of us aren't the romantic type.

Daniel Son
10th January 2005, 12:46
I cannot believe the responses on this thread, I truly appreciate everyone’s input. As a student, as we all are, of the martial arts, all I can do is learn as much as possible from my teacher and then go out and practice with others and also learn from others. Robert, you make great points as to the reason you train with bogu as many of the teachers of Mr. Oyata's art that have been with him for decades. I apologize if I had stepped on anyone’s toes here, as I was simply asking people their opinions and sharing mine as I have been witness to. I have much to learn and am eager to learn as much as I can.


Daniel,

This quote alone shows that one of the following is true:
1. You have not spent any significant time with the machiwara or heavy bag.
2. Your teacher did not spend much time explaining it to you.

You are correct…I have not. I however came to have the opinions that I have after seeing people come to our class that have and do makiwar training and heavy bag training DAILY and that do have incredible power and see Joe defend himself with ease. That is all.
I hope that I did not misrepresent myself by making people here think I was a direct student of Mr. Oyata or that I was in the organization, I am not, I stated my lineage at the beginning of this post.

Robert, I was never in a huff on this subject. If you thought I was, I apologize; I was simply trying to share my point of view as I have been witness to. I guess I will have to find a school near me of direct decent and in the organization or Mr. Oyata around here to witness/try what it is that I have not seen/tried.
Thanks again to everyone who took time to post their thoughts on the subject. One thing I must comment on though, you took out what I said about how Joe will defend against any attack as if it were a drill, I do not think it was a drill when he doesn't know what I am going to attack with. A drill in my mind is someone telling me to attack with a punch and watch what they do, or attack with a kick....which we also do too, when he is breaking down kata for us.

Troll Basher
10th January 2005, 12:53
Daniel,

No blood, no foul. ;)

Joe Logue
10th January 2005, 14:03
Hello Doug--
I read your warning and no problem. I fully understand and will comply. I've already said all that I needed to say on this subject anyway and I won't continue to just be repetitive. You won't have any problems with me further.
Hello Robert--
1. If you have any questions about Stan Hart, may I suggest you simply email him directly, you obviously have his webpage address.
He's a good man and I'm sure he'll be helpful in any way that he can.
He travels a lot doing Hakuda/Hakushu seminars, so if you don't get an immediate answer, just wait a few days and I'm sure he'll answer you. Any questions you may have about him, I'd prefer you get it right directly from the source. I'll leave it up to him if he wants to talk to you about the private matter that was between him and Mr. Oyata. I understand and whole heartedly agree with you about 99% of the reasons why some have left the organization, but if Stan tells you what happened, you may feel that he belongs in the 1% that wasn't based upon ego. I'll leave it up to your best judgement.
2. I had asked earlier about if "Mr.Wakinagori and Mr. Uhgushiku No Tan Mei" who Mr. Oyata has told everyone that they were his weapontry,Tuite & Kyusho Jitsu teachers--did they teach him with Bogu equipment or did Mr. Oyata start with Bogu equipment only after he started to train with Mr. Nakamura? I would appreciate your answer on this interesting question that pertains to the topic of Bogu.

Best regards to all,
Joe Logue

Troll Basher
10th January 2005, 14:18
Originally posted by Joe Logue

1. If you have any questions about Stan Hart, may I suggest you simply email him directly, you obviously have his webpage address.

That’s alright, I am not really that interested in what he does.


Originally posted by Joe Logue

I'll leave it up to him if he wants to talk to you about the private matter that was between him and Mr. Oyata. I understand and whole heartedly agree with you about 99% of the reasons why some have left the organization, but if Stan tells you what happened, you may feel that he belongs in the 1% that wasn't based upon ego. I'll leave it up to your best judgement.

Not really interested in that either. I don’t really care if people leave or the reasons why….just what they claim afterwards. Stan doesn’t seem to claim anything so I don’t care.


Originally posted by Joe Logue


2. I had asked earlier about if "Mr.Wakinagori and Mr. Uhgushiku No Tan Mei" who Mr. Oyata has told everyone that they were his weapontry,Tuite & Kyusho Jitsu teachers--did they teach him with Bogu equipment or did Mr. Oyata start with Bogu equipment only after he started to train with Mr. Nakamura? I would appreciate your answer on this interesting question that pertains to the topic of Bogu.


They didn’t use bogu….as far I know it hadn’t been invented yet. Mr. Uhugushuku whacked him with a Bo one time and Mr. Oyata spent some time in the hospital. (that’s the short version of what happened) You should read Mr. Oyata’s book about what it was like to train with them or one written by Steve Stark about training with Mr. Oyata.

hectokan
10th January 2005, 16:25
Great responses by Mr.Cook and Mr.Rousselot.

Are boxing or karate type punches used when training with bogu and boxing gloves?

Daniel Son
10th January 2005, 20:00
Robert, after rereading some of these posts, maybe I totally asked the wrong question. I was referring to Bogu training in the use of learning and appling the techniques of Tuite/Kyusho Jutsu.

Does that help in where I was coming from?

From the statements you posted here, I am assuming that you can not learn or apply these techniques of Tuite/Kyusho Jutsu with Bogu on. That was really my main point/question to this board and to you before in my private post. Like I said, maybe I should have stated in my question a little more clear, for that I apologize. It is difficult sometimes to get your actual point or attitute acrossed in writing, at least for me. Sorry about all this bickering that took place over my asking the wrong question. I understand that there are other tools in the martial arts that help in fighting and power, and I did not mean to get into that subject.

Now with Bogu on, I understand what you are able to do, well understand from reading, not by doing. That you are able to hit hard, full force and more from what you have shared.
All I can do it try it for myself someday, thanks for your help Robert and everyone else who posted here.

Michael Bland
11th January 2005, 06:21
Hi Hector,


Are boxing or karate type punches used when training with bogu and boxing gloves?

Both from what I have seen and done. But I don't know if that is the goal or not. Basically from what I can tell, if it works, use it.

Troll Basher
11th January 2005, 06:37
Originally posted by Daniel Son

Robert, after rereading some of these posts, maybe I totally asked the wrong question. I was referring to Bogu training in the use of learning and appling the techniques of Tuite/Kyusho Jutsu.

Does that help in where I was coming from?

I saw where you coming and I answered your question.


Originally posted by Daniel Son

From the statements you posted here, I am assuming that you can not learn or apply these techniques of Tuite/Kyusho Jutsu with Bogu on. That was really my main point/question to this board and to you before in my private post. Like I said, maybe I should have stated in my question a little more clear, for that I apologize. It is difficult sometimes to get your actual point or attitute acrossed in writing, at least for me. Sorry about all this bickering that took place over my asking the wrong question. I understand that there are other tools in the martial arts that help in fighting and power, and I did not mean to get into that subject.

Now with Bogu on, I understand what you are able to do, well understand from reading, not by doing. That you are able to hit hard, full force and more from what you have shared.
All I can do it try it for myself someday, thanks for your help Robert and everyone else who posted here.

I would be more than happy to discuss this matter after you have practiced bogu or any kind of full contact sparring for say 6 months or so with a qualified teacher/partner….until such time I feel it would be more work on my part explaining it to you than benefit to you.

Troll Basher
11th January 2005, 06:39
Originally posted by hectokan
Great responses by Mr.Cook and Mr.Rousselot.

Are boxing or karate type punches used when training with bogu and boxing gloves?


We use karate punches, boxing punches, Taichi punches, bjj punches, ninja punches, jkd punches……but never ever a “judo chop”……those are far too dangerous.;)

superjock
11th January 2005, 09:25
Bogu,
I have only tried this a couple of times, i find that as soon as the boxing gloves go on I try to box. Trouble is I can't box. I feel safe hidden behind the old gloves the BANG next thing I know I'm on my butt sporting a black eye. Bugger. However with the same opponent barefisted I could keep outa trouble and sweep the legs from him on numerous occasions. We would trade punches & not one would land on my face or head for that matter, soon as the gloves go on....Bugger. I've grown out of that now and only train on my own.

Kata ........ good training but without bunkai (application) not much cope. Still do it though incase I do return to mainstream someday. It'll probably be "wrong" anyway.


Makiwara.....Up until a couple of years ago I never bothered with the old maki.....just one of thes things I was always gonna do. when I stopped training in classes I stopped getting togged up in my gi. which is of the heavy weight variety to give good snapp and a feeling (feedback) of great kimi (focus). With the lack of the gi although I was performing in my usual manner, because there was no 'gi feedback' it felt as if there was no focus or power in my techniques.
Then I read a wee line from Henry Ford which went something like you will never make a name for yourself by the things you are gonna do. In other words stop procrastinating get up of your arse and do something. I built a makiwara and after 3 attempts managed to make one that actually worked.
Night one remembering some earlier lessons and an article in Fighting arts by Higgoana sensei DON'T hit the beast anymore than 20-30 times on your first month or two. "Bugger that I've been training for years I'll do 200 each side". 2 handfulls of skinned knuckles later "right where's that magazine".
I've been at the makiwara for about 2 years now the first thing I found out was my wrists & shoulders got stronger. I face the beast every second night (150-200 times each side dependant on kids) and have a week or two off when the knuckles start to get too calloused. I don't see the need to have huge callouses, it's very rare that I skin them now anyway and I hit full blast.

Although from shotokan I tend to use a Goju type of punch (higher stance with full use of hip twist) rather than straight reverse punch of shotokan. I copied the technique from the Way of the Warrior video footage. I also do a jab type punch in my version of naihanchi stance(copied from a photo of Choki Motobu). I very rarely use anything other than forefist, everything else hurts. Now even without my gi my techniques in kata & basics fell stronger this is backed up with the feedback I get from the makiwara.
Hit people? Don't really want to. I stay away from the places now where I used to get into 'bother' nightclubs etc.

The next on my "I'm gonna" list is the Chi shi.... Anybody out there know how the drills go. I know you do Harry, but I've forgotten them.

I used to practise my own form of chi shi drills with that bloody chainsaw. Good job I've retired it :mad: :saw:

Rob Alvelais
11th January 2005, 16:51
Robert,


Pardon my naievte.

How's the bogu on the neck? We've heard stories (albeit old, old, stories) about punches to the facemask causing the neck to snap back, and whiplash type injuries being incurred.


Rob

chizikunbo
11th January 2005, 17:45
Originally posted by Troll Basher
Hopefully you can see the type of equipment we use in the photo.

Here are some good pics, from a guy in ND, this is the same bogu Taika Oyata used in his dojo in Makiminato Urose San...

http://karate.dhs.org/gallery/weapons/_whitedo_front.jpg

http://karate.dhs.org/gallery/weapons/_whitedo_side.jpg

http://karate.dhs.org/gallery/weapons/_men_side.jpg

http://karate.dhs.org/gallery/weapons/_men_front.jpg

Enjoy!

Timothy.G.B.
11th January 2005, 18:42
Great pics of the bogu!

Here are some "tongue-in-cheek" suggestions for a little lighthearted fun:

What if, to make bogu training more "realistic", one could pad the back of the helmet, the back of the chest protector to cover the spine and neck, put some padding under the arms, put some padding to cover the groin and the perineum etc., put some padding on the insides of the legs and let people really go at it.

Full contact to the back of the head, the groin, the spine, the inside of the legs, the joints, under the arms, now that is what I would call "realistic" fight training with Bogu. Oh, and, don't allow the fighters to wear protective gloves!!

Perhaps this may stir up some strong opinions. I am not saying in any way that Bogu training is not helpful for certain things like "keeping your wits about you" after you get your bell rung or gaining confidence to get in there and try to hit etc., or even working timing and distancing. Free sparring can definitely assist in these areas.

(A side note to Robert (Troll Basher),
I have read your stated opinions about people who are not training with bogu not commenting on training with bogu. I have not trained with bogu, however, I have trained "full" contact free sparring without bogu on and only boxing "bag gloves" to cover the hands and a mouthgard for the face. So, my opinions on free sparring are not uninformed.)

I just wondered what people thought about adding the additional padding to the bogu and going at it like that. Please choose your preferred response,

a) I would love to try that kind of full padding and really go at it with someone who is allowed to hit me in those areas full force
b) I would be interested to see two other people (not me) go at each other with that kind of padding
c) I would hate to see what would happen if you opened up those targets in full contact sparring
d) I think I will stick to doing ippon kumite and controlled techniques

Just trying to add some lightheartedness to the conversation, and at thge same time I am also really curious which option people would choose and why.

Best to all,
Tim Black
Kokusai Shinjinbukan

Troll Basher
11th January 2005, 21:18
Originally posted by Timothy.G.B.
Great pics of the bogu!

Here are some "tongue-in-cheek" suggestions for a little lighthearted fun:

What if, to make bogu training more "realistic", one could pad the back of the helmet, the back of the chest protector to cover the spine and neck, put some padding under the arms, put some padding to cover the groin and the perineum etc., put some padding on the insides of the legs and let people really go at it.

Full contact to the back of the head, the groin, the spine, the inside of the legs, the joints, under the arms, now that is what I would call "realistic" fight training with Bogu. Oh, and, don't allow the fighters to wear protective gloves!!

Perhaps this may stir up some strong opinions. I am not saying in any way that Bogu training is not helpful for certain things like "keeping your wits about you" after you get your bell rung or gaining confidence to get in there and try to hit etc., or even working timing and distancing. Free sparring can definitely assist in these areas.

(A side note to Robert (Troll Basher),
I have read your stated opinions about people who are not training with bogu not commenting on training with bogu. I have not trained with bogu, however, I have trained "full" contact free sparring without bogu on and only boxing "bag gloves" to cover the hands and a mouthgard for the face. So, my opinions on free sparring are not uninformed.)

I just wondered what people thought about adding the additional padding to the bogu and going at it like that. Please choose your preferred response,

a) I would love to try that kind of full padding and really go at it with someone who is allowed to hit me in those areas full force
b) I would be interested to see two other people (not me) go at each other with that kind of padding
c) I would hate to see what would happen if you opened up those targets in full contact sparring
d) I think I will stick to doing ippon kumite and controlled techniques

Just trying to add some lightheartedness to the conversation, and at thge same time I am also really curious which option people would choose and why.

Best to all,
Tim Black
Kokusai Shinjinbukan



I have seen MPs use what is called a "Redman Suit" and you are pretty much covered from head to toe front and back in foam rubber type material.....it's pretty cool but the mobility is limited.

Troll Basher
11th January 2005, 21:21
Originally posted by chizikunbo
Here are some good pics, from a guy in ND, this is the same bogu Taika Oyata used in his dojo in Makiminato Urose San...

Enjoy!

Now we use a bit different type of head gear that gives you better vision. You can see it in the photos I posted.

hectokan
11th January 2005, 21:47
What Bogu sparring techniques are not allowed in MMA?

Maddog Mitchell
11th January 2005, 21:59
Hector,

As far as my old systems Bogu Kumite, we were able to use elbow and knee strikes, kick to the head, heck we even at times simulated an Atama Uchi (head butt).

I'm tring to post a pic of our old Bogu gear.

Mike Mitchell

Harry Cook
11th January 2005, 22:27
I think the stories of whiplash injuries to the neck etc might be a little exaggerated. I bought a couple of sets of bogu equipment in 1977 in Tokyo and used it in England in the early 1980s with my students. What I found was that my vision was so limited that I was getting caught with techniques I might have been able to avoid without the helmet.
Lately I've been using the new Shorinji Kempo gear, and the helmets used by Hisataka sensei's group, which are ok until they fog up.
I'm not saying that you couldn't get a neck injury sparring this way, but I never did - got plenty of headaches and my nose squashed against the central metal bar on one of the helmets!!
Harry Cook

Troll Basher
11th January 2005, 22:43
Originally posted by Harry Cook
I think the stories of whiplash injuries to the neck etc might be a little exaggerated. I bought a couple of sets of bogu equipment in 1977 in Tokyo and used it in England in the early 1980s with my students. What I found was that my vision was so limited that I was getting caught with techniques I might have been able to avoid without the helmet.
Lately I've been using the new Shorinji Kempo gear, and the helmets used by Hisataka sensei's group, which are ok until they fog up.
I'm not saying that you couldn't get a neck injury sparring this way, but I never did - got plenty of headaches and my nose squashed against the central metal bar on one of the helmets!!
Harry Cook

They have new egipument out now that has as wide a field of view as you would ever need or want.
They are mainly used by Nippon Kempo.
The guy that owns Shureido in Tokyo has them. 10 years ago he said they don't make them any more but I still see new ones in his store everytime I go in.
I had a set of the shorinji kempo/hisataka type bubble masks. You can't breath, they break not to mention they are like looking through a fish bowl.

Troll Basher
11th January 2005, 22:52
Originally posted by hectokan
What Bogu sparring techniques are not allowed in MMA?


Some dojo may use different rules but in mine these are the basics:
Basically you can't hit to the nuts, bite, things like that.

Throws are OK, as you can see in the photos I posted, joint locks etc...

Maddog Mitchell
12th January 2005, 01:34
Robert,

What type of gloves do you guys use for the Bogu? We used to use the big Boxing or huge heavybag gloves. This made the art of joint locking a bit hard. However we'd be able to throw a good koshi nage in their.

Regards,

Mike Mitchell

Troll Basher
12th January 2005, 02:03
Originally posted by Maddog Mitchell
Robert,

What type of gloves do you guys use for the Bogu? We used to use the big Boxing or huge heavybag gloves. This made the art of joint locking a bit hard. However we'd be able to throw a good koshi nage in their.

Regards,

Mike Mitchell

For beginners we use 16oz kickboxing gloves made in Thailand. The quality is pretty good and they tend to last. We also use 10oz gloves made for bogu, they are like boxing gloves but they have a layer of hard rubber inside to protect your knuckles from the bars on the bogu helmet.
For MMA type sparring we use MMA gloves and boxing type head gear, it’s pretty good exercise.

Maddog Mitchell
12th January 2005, 02:50
Robert,

Excellent! So then you guys use MMA type sparring equipment to include grappling and submission wrestling?

The 10oz gloves you guys use are they from Shureido?

Regards,

Mike Mitchell

Troll Basher
12th January 2005, 03:21
Originally posted by Maddog Mitchell
Robert,

1)Excellent! So then you guys use MMA type sparring equipment to include grappling and submission wrestling?

2)The 10oz gloves you guys use are they from Shureido?

Regards,

Mike Mitchell

1) Other than typical bogu techniques we try to use tuite/throws/chokes etc found in kata technique.
Doing drills for technique is fine but if you want an eye opener try doing technique on someone that is seriously trying to beat the crap out of you and can hit you as hard and as often as they want....or you can stand ;)

2) Yes. I will try to post a photo when I get back to my home PC

Troll Basher
12th January 2005, 03:31
Originally posted by Maddog Mitchell
Robert,
........We used to use the big Boxing or huge heavybag gloves. This made the art of joint locking a bit hard. ........
Regards,

Mike Mitchell


About all I can ever squeak out with boxing gloves on is a "figure 4" or an elbow hyper extension.....no and then a throw.

TimoS
12th January 2005, 10:42
Originally posted by Troll Basher
Now we use a bit different type of head gear that gives you better vision. You can see it in the photos I posted.

Those looked like the Strongman helmets that we use. This has been an interesting thread to read. While we don't usually use bogu in regular practise, we use it in competitions.

Troll Basher
12th January 2005, 10:51
Just a few pics of sparring.

The set up........

Troll Basher
12th January 2005, 10:54
The lift.....

Troll Basher
12th January 2005, 10:57
gettin' some "hang time"

Troll Basher
12th January 2005, 10:59
the "landing".......

Troll Basher
12th January 2005, 11:03
The finish.....

Maddog Mitchell
12th January 2005, 11:43
Robert,

Good pics and thanks for sharing.

Question? On the finish do they continue to fight or do you stop the Kumite after landing the throw?

As I stated we had used the big bag gloves or boxing gloves and if we were able to get a Nage waza or sweep we'd continue the fight on the ground but it would basically just be ground and pound since we couldn't really use our hands to go for a submission via joint lock. Additionally when we did Bogu it was a set time 2 minutes or 3 minutes, non stop only if there was an injury or they were gonna crash into the wall, even then we'd push them off.

Regards,

Mike Mitchell

Troll Basher
12th January 2005, 11:48
Originally posted by Maddog Mitchell

1) Question? On the finish do they continue to fight or do you stop the Kumite after landing the throw?

2) Additionally when we did Bogu it was a set time 2 minutes or 3 minutes, non stop only if there was an injury or they were gonna crash into the wall, even then we'd push them off.

Regards,

Mike Mitchell


1) It isn't over with just a throw.....they either "tap or nap" to the finish. In the photos above the guy that was thrown actually got out of it and made the thrower tap out.

2) We just go until someone gives up. Take a few seconds rest then start again. One HELL of a work out. We don't really get too many injuries....just bumps and bruises.

hectokan
12th January 2005, 17:17
What are the pros or cons of training full contact with the Bogu gear as opposed to training with boxing head gear?This question is not meant out of dissrespect to anyone that trains with bogu,as I have a good friends that have trained with bogu extensively in the past.

I will be the first to admit that my only experience with full contact sparring comes from training with the traditional Boxing Head gear and boxing gloves.Of course if face contact is omitted then kyokushin type sparring has always been an option.


In my experience of training with the boxing headgear & boxing gloves I am able to not only train boxing but I can also train kickboxing with a modified Muaythai influence,which means it can include standup clinching,punches,kicks,knees with very controlled elbow attacks.Now,if I have a willing partner and I want to spice things up into my training,I can always go with the san-shou/shootboxing rules which includes throws and takedowns.


The continuation of ground grappling after the fight hits the the ground becomes a little mute because boxing gloves makes detailed grappling very hard to overcome.

From My experience or lack therof when working with throws especialy when working with boxing gloves,I find it hard to make most standing locks work on a real unwilling opponent before a clinch & takedown becomes the primary focus.

This is one of the main reason (I think)that we don't see many if at all "standing locks" applied in MMA and yes I believe they are very legal but not practical most of the times.maybe standing locks are better suited for situational self defense as opposed to real sparring when both parties know what's up.

I believe most top MMA camps also incorporating another type of full contact sparring with MMA gloves that includes very light head contact,in order to be able to move from standup into ground grappling and creat a flow like training reality.


Is it wrong for me to believe that bogu training is just one of the first equipments used for developing full contact training for karate.I hear it was borrowed from kendo and modified for karate contact in the 50s but like everything in life there have been many other ideas and innovations since then on how to aproach full contact training.


It would seem that due to the lack of vision,the weight & bulkiness of the headguard,along with the proven fact that the shock to the brain is much more acute and unforgiving upon impact,makes me believe that bogu equipment could be outdated.

Again my experience with full contact as it relates to bogu is Zilch so please I mean no dissrespect to anyone.I am only hoping that someone can shed some light on the pros and cons of using the bogu gear as opposed to the boxing headgear as it pertains full contact training.

Could it be it a tradition thingie?

chizikunbo
12th January 2005, 18:08
Originally posted by Troll Basher
Now we use a bit different type of head gear that gives you better vision. You can see it in the photos I posted.

The Ryu Te (tm) stuff? Or Local Japanese?

chizikunbo
12th January 2005, 18:14
Originally posted by Troll Basher



They didn’t use bogu….as far I know it hadn’t been invented yet. Mr. Uhugushuku whacked him with a Bo one time and Mr. Oyata spent some time in the hospital. (that’s the short version of what happened) You should read Mr. Oyata’s book about what it was like to train with them or one written by Steve Stark about training with Mr. Oyata.

No they did not use Bogu, Nakumura Hanshi was using it at the time however, Taika helped him perfect his Bogu.
Yes Ryu Te no Michi is a great book...highly recomended.
I hevent read Steve Starks Book but Hanshi Logues (Jim) is excellent as well.

Troll Basher
12th January 2005, 22:05
.

Troll Basher
12th January 2005, 23:22
Originally posted by chizikunbo
No they did not use Bogu, Nakumura Hanshi was using it at the time however, Taika helped him perfect his Bogu.
Yes Ryu Te no Michi is a great book...highly recomended.
I hevent read Steve Starks Book but Hanshi Logues (Jim) is excellent as well.


If you have a copy of RyuTe® no Michi re-read page 2-15.
Mr. Uhugushuku dies in '51.....Mr. Wakinaguri died in '53......Mr. Oyata joined Mr. Nakamura's dojo about '58

Troll Basher
13th January 2005, 01:17
Originally posted by chizikunbo
The Ryu Te® stuff? Or Local Japanese?


I am not sure if you can see the gloves and the helmet clearly but this is the type of equipment we use.

Maddog Mitchell
13th January 2005, 01:55
The link below hopefully will get you to a site of my old systems Bogu gear. It's much bigger than the others and you can see why it maybe a little out dated.


http://www.koei-kan.us/tiki-browse_image.php?imageId=11

Troll Basher
13th January 2005, 02:06
Originally posted by Maddog Mitchell
The link below hopefully will get you to a site of my old systems Bogu gear. It's much bigger than the others and you can see why it maybe a little out dated.


http://www.koei-kan.us/tiki-browse_image.php?imageId=11

Damn! That is definately stuff from "back in the day".....You can still get that kind of head gear in Tokyo. That kind of screen is good for weapons fighting.

Maddog Mitchell
13th January 2005, 02:16
Robert,

As most can see the inside is heavily padded and yes it was from Japan. It constricts your breathing a little and your vision is slightly impaired. But you were able to pound away til you couldn't pound anymore... using elbow, knees, etc even while on the ground. With the mesh you guys understand why our grappling was limited as you'd need seriously heavy gloves to hit that thang...

As for the whiplash that was mentioned well again you guys can see the possibilities for whiplash with that heavy MEN (helmet)

Regards,

Mike Mitchell

Troll Basher
13th January 2005, 02:23
Originally posted by Maddog Mitchell
Robert,

As most can see the inside is heavily padded and yes it was from Japan. 1) It constricts your breathing a little and your vision is slightly impaired. But you were able to pound away til you couldn't pound anymore... using elbow, knees, etc even while on the ground. With the mesh you guys understand why our grappling was limited as you'd need seriously heavy gloves to hit that thang...

2) As for the whiplash that was mentioned well again you guys can see the possibilities for whiplash with that heavy MEN (helmet)

Regards,

Mike Mitchell


1) Ya but the other guy is in the same boat so everything is even...

2) Best way not to get whiplash......don't get hit. :D

Maddog Mitchell
13th January 2005, 02:32
Robert,

Hence why we would not only fight in the gear but train Tai Sabaki drills and Bubu drills. However with the air constriction if you were able to relax you had half the battle. I tell some folks it's a bit like some of the grappling positions or Yoga poses you become very uncomfortable in, but once you relax and control your breathing you can survive and do well.

Even with all the Tai Sabaki drills that thing is so darn big you can't help but get hit (which isn't a bad thing) and the probability for whiplash is high. We could also execute Tetsui Uchi (hammer strike) to the collar bone.

Regards,

Mike Mitchell

Troll Basher
13th January 2005, 02:43
Originally posted by Maddog Mitchell
Robert,

1) Hence why we would not only fight in the gear but train Tai Sabaki drills and Bubu drills. However with the air constriction if you were able to relax you had half the battle. I tell some folks it's a bit like some of the grappling positions or Yoga poses you become very uncomfortable in, but once you relax and control your breathing you can survive and do well.


Good post.

1) And yet another VERY important lesson learned from doing bogu......RELAX.....it's not always easy to do under stress or physical discomfort. Bogu is good training for that.
This is why I tell people bogu has many lessons to teach....that carry over to regular "self-defense" as well.

Maddog Mitchell
13th January 2005, 02:45
Agreed Robert

:toast:

Mike Mitchell

dsomers
13th January 2005, 03:38
Mike ,

I just invested in this headgear ( http://www.e-bogu.com/Head_Guard_in_PVC_Removable_Mask_p/ind-spa--hd-3--.htm ) , & some Kempo gloves . What are your thoughts on both ?

David

Troll Basher
13th January 2005, 05:03
Originally posted by dsomers
Mike ,

I just invested in this headgear ( http://www.e-bogu.com/Head_Guard_in_PVC_Removable_Mask_p/ind-spa--hd-3--.htm ) , & some Kempo gloves . What are your thoughts on both ?

David

We use that exact same headgear for MMA type sparring. It works pretty good.
kenpo gloves are good too......."SCORE!"


that website has some good stuff on it....

dsomers
13th January 2005, 06:26
I originally wanted to invest in some supersafe gear , but couldnt find any , anywhere , so I figured this would do .
I havent spared in several years , & thought I might start doing so again . But , I've been doin this stuff for since I was a kid , & your body could only take so much abuse .

Maddog Mitchell
13th January 2005, 09:38
David,

Looks good to me.

Mike Mitchell

hectokan
13th January 2005, 11:30
http://www.grantboxing.com/

A little expensive but the best in boxing equipment right now.

Maddog Mitchell
13th January 2005, 12:20
Hector,

In regards to your post on the equipment and tradition etc. I know that various schools from my old system left the syllabus up to the Instructors, however Bogu Kumite was mandatory for testing. So that is for sure a tradition of the Ryu. Mind you some of the schools like ours would also do various types of sparring. To be honest I find the MMA type sparring much better, and more realistic.

People say the makiwara is outdated (I use mine daily) and they have a point as there are better ways to train for power and conditioning, using heavybags, focus mitts etc. Even the makiwara has evolved in some way. They use to bury them in the ground now you have some with a base mounted to the floor. Some are spring loaded etc.

Good points Hector

Regards,

Mike Mitchell

chizikunbo
13th January 2005, 17:22
Originally posted by Troll Basher
If you have a copy of RyuTe® no Michi re-read page 2-15.
Mr. Uhugushuku dies in '51.....Mr. Wakinaguri died in '53......Mr. Oyata joined Mr. Nakamura's dojo about '58

Yes Nakumuira Hanshi had a Dojo before Taika joined, Nakumura was using a rough form of Bogu gear, later Taika helped him perfect the stuff :)

chizikunbo
13th January 2005, 17:24
Originally posted by Troll Basher
I am not sure if you can see the gloves and the helmet clearly but this is the type of equipment we use.

Nifty ^_^ The "Men" is pretty cool, but I think I personally would like the Kendo type better :)

Troll Basher
13th January 2005, 22:24
Originally posted by chizikunbo
Nifty ^_^ The "Men" is pretty cool, but I think I personally would like the Kendo type better :)

Really? Why is that?

hectokan
14th January 2005, 13:06
Maddog Mitchell Hector,

In regards to your post on the equipment and tradition etc. I know that various schools from my old system left the syllabus up to the Instructors, however Bogu Kumite was mandatory for testing. So that is for sure a tradition of the Ryu. Mind you some of the schools like ours would also do various types of sparring. To be honest I find the MMA type sparring much better, and more realistic



Mike,

Good points,I was looking at the pictures of your old helment.that must of been tough to work out with.I salute you sir.........then again Maddog is one crazy motho


Why would professional fighters such as kickboxers,muaythai or san-shou fighters not use bogu headgear during their training?Isn't Most every "strike" used in bogu sparring either used in muaythai,kickboxing or sanshou also?

The vision seems to be obstructed,while the breathing becomes difficult and due to the added weight,upper body movement such as bobbing,weaving and slipping become a detriment.

I realize that some times this could be viewed as an advantage.It would only make sense then that profesional fighters and trainers who's lives$$$$ depend on getting every sort of advantage possible would then want to train with them.


www.ringside.com sells some sort of bogu type headgear with face mask for the white collar boxer .They reason that the only logical advantage a face mask type headgear has nowadays,would be for the added protection that the cage provides the white collar boxer incase he has to go to a board meeting in the morning.

chizikunbo
14th January 2005, 17:36
Originally posted by Troll Basher
Really? Why is that?

Dont know Im just used to the kind I use, I guess. But having protection in the back of the head is a plue with your gear ^_^

Troll Basher
14th January 2005, 23:50
Originally posted by chizikunbo
Dont know Im just used to the kind I use, I guess. But having protection in the back of the head is a plue with your gear ^_^


The “kendo type” offers little or no protection. (as seen in the photo below) The 2 sides of the mask just kind of pull back a bit and there is a big gap.
The kind I use actually has a pad that folds down and is strapped on to your head using the “himo”.

Troll Basher
14th January 2005, 23:52
Below is the type that we use and as you can see there is a pad on the back of the head.

chizikunbo
15th January 2005, 16:14
Originally posted by Troll Basher
The “kendo type” offers little or no protection. (as seen in the photo below) The 2 sides of the mask just kind of pull back a bit and there is a big gap.
The kind I use actually has a pad that folds down and is strapped on to your head using the “himo”.

By kendo type I mean the Ryu Te style stuff and the kind in the pics I showed, I should have been more specific... sorry.

Troll Basher
15th January 2005, 23:14
Originally posted by chizikunbo
By kendo type I mean the Ryu Te style stuff and the kind in the pics I showed, I should have been more specific... sorry.

They are pretty much the same thing. Especially in the back. In fact there are only slight differences. The kendo style doesn’t have ear holes and the “flaps” are a bit shorter on the ones you posted…..other than that they a the same thing.

Troll Basher
16th January 2005, 12:59
Originally posted by chizikunbo
By kendo type I mean the Ryu Te style stuff and the kind in the pics I showed, I should have been more specific... sorry.

Actually the ones you posted are the “old” kind. A couple years ago Mr. Oyata asked me to scout around Japan and see of I could find some bogu gear. I contacted Tokyo Shureido and asked if they had any and the owner lied and said they don’t sell bogu. Funny thing is I bought some from him there in the past.
What I found some from another company is in the photo. It was originally made for the Japanese Riot Police to train in but Mr. Oyata had the people make it special with a few of the eye bars missing for better visibility.

There are a couple of improvements on the newer version.

1) Visibility…..no more tunnel vision….and bam! Then asking yourself why you are laying on the floor with a headache.
2) The inside has been made a little more padded
3) The rime around the face guard is leather instead of rawhide.
4) No more “Flying Nun” flaps… (Just dated myself with at reference to an old TV show)….you can actually bob your head more now.

Troll Basher
16th January 2005, 13:01
New head gear...

Troll Basher
16th January 2005, 13:04
old head gear.....

hectokan
16th January 2005, 15:01
Maddog Mitchel,

These are some old pictures of Sensei Jack williams teaching the Miami police dept Taiho-jitsu with the bogu equipment.Take into account that these pictures were probably taken in the late 60s or early 70s.




PS:scroll down for all the bogu pictures.


http://judojackwilliams.com/judopics9/image0.html

Maddog Mitchell
16th January 2005, 18:22
Hector,

Great Pics! Jacks what like 74 now? He's been there and done that for sure..

Mike Mitchell


PS I saw the Dominican Johnny Cash last night in his trademark Black get up. I introduced myself and watched him stumble around the club. I left at 5 AM and he was still walking around with a drink in his hand.

hectokan
17th January 2005, 02:20
Maddog,


Jack Is like 75 years young and still kicking.The Dominican Johnny cash was at my house recently to watch some fights.He downed a whole bottle of rum by himself before he went out to start his nightlife.

:toast:

chizikunbo
17th January 2005, 18:01
Originally posted by Troll Basher
Actually the ones you posted are the “old” kind. A couple years ago Mr. Oyata asked me to scout around Japan and see of I could find some bogu gear. I contacted Tokyo Shureido and asked if they had any and the owner lied and said they don’t sell bogu. Funny thing is I bought some from him there in the past.
What I found some from another company is in the photo. It was originally made for the Japanese Riot Police to train in but Mr. Oyata had the people make it special with a few of the eye bars missing for better visibility.

There are a couple of improvements on the newer version.

1) Visibility…..no more tunnel vision….and bam! Then asking yourself why you are laying on the floor with a headache.
2) The inside has been made a little more padded
3) The rime around the face guard is leather instead of rawhide.
4) No more “Flying Nun” flaps… (Just dated myself with at reference to an old TV show)….you can actually bob your head more now.

Thanks for the info, great pics by the way.
I like the new stuff (based on the pics) because of the improved vision, I guess its overall better.
Thanks again.

Jim Logue
21st January 2005, 13:29
Perhaps I can share some information about bogu kumite.

First, a little about my experience. I am Taika Oyata's senior ranking student. I began training with him in Okinawa and share responsibility for bringing him to the US and setting up his organization here. In Okinawa, we trained almost daily and bogu kumite was a routine for almost every class. Most of the tournaments held during the time I was there were bogu tournaments. When we had belt tests, it was usually held with the others in the organization and included kata and bogu kumite.

The Okinawan Kempo organization, headed by Shigeru Nakamura, introduced bogu kumite in the late 50's. I believe it had already been introduced to Southern Japan a little earlier. Bogu Kumite was patterned after Kendo which allows practitioners of the sword arts to practice at full force and speed without risk of fatal injury.

Nakamura Hanshi, along with his senior students, introduced bogu kumite as a way to practice karate techniques with full force and speed. Bogu kumite flourished into the early 80s but has since almost disappeared in practice in Okinawa. This is due, in part, to expense of the equipment and liabilities. I believe that the World Tournament held in Okinawa doesn't even include kumite any longer, just kata!

Bogu kumite is merely a sport; however, its usefulness is in the ability to execute strikes/kicks at combat speeds and power. Bogu kumite is just another tool that can be used to help develop the whole karateka. It doesn't replace kata training; it doesn't replace tuite or any other aspect of training. It is just an enhancement.

My personal belief is that being able to strike your opponent at full speed and power and have them do likewise provides a more realistic aspect to training. Certainly you can try to do this without the protection of the gear, but you risk serious injury. A caution however, you have to know how to use the bogu gear to appreciate its value. You don't just strap on the gear and slap at each other. The blows, when properly execute and landed, will definitely hurt. You can get the breath knocked out of you, get knocked out or hurt so much that you can't continue the fight. The gear offers protection from broken ribs and such although I've had some experience where student did get cracked ribs from a well placed back kick.

In Ryute (formerly Ryukyu Kempo) we still practice Bogu. It is part of our culture and history and a tool to help make our technique better. We still hold small inner organization tournaments using bogu. If you are interested. I wrote a little article many years ago about my first experience wearing the bogu. It explains a lot about the importance of the tool www.kushu.com/bogu_kumite.htm

Thanks,

Jim Logue

TimoS
21st January 2005, 13:46
Originally posted by Jim Logue Bogu kumite is merely a sport; however, its usefulness is in the ability to execute strikes/kicks at combat speeds and power.

This reminded of the last years Shorinji ryu kumite championships here in Finland. One of the guys at club is a big strong guy and for the first time ever he was competing last year. He basically had one good technique, oizuki, but it was so powerful that in one match when his punch connected with the other guys mask, the metal bars actually bended and the guy had to get another helmet for remainder of the match :) So I fully agree with what you said above. I sure wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one of his strikes :)

Daniel Son
21st January 2005, 14:42
Thank you Mr. Jim Logue for you response.



Respectfully
Daniel

chizikunbo
21st January 2005, 17:34
Originally posted by Jim Logue
Perhaps I can share some information about bogu kumite.

First, a little about my experience. I am Taika Oyata's senior ranking student. I began training with him in Okinawa and share responsibility for bringing him to the US and setting up his organization here. In Okinawa, we trained almost daily and bogu kumite was a routine for almost every class. Most of the tournaments held during the time I was there were bogu tournaments. When we had belt tests, it was usually held with the others in the organization and included kata and bogu kumite.

The Okinawan Kempo organization, headed by Shigeru Nakamura, introduced bogu kumite in the late 50's. I believe it had already been introduced to Southern Japan a little earlier. Bogu Kumite was patterned after Kendo which allows practitioners of the sword arts to practice at full force and speed without risk of fatal injury.

Nakamura Hanshi, along with his senior students, introduced bogu kumite as a way to practice karate techniques with full force and speed. Bogu kumite flourished into the early 80s but has since almost disappeared in practice in Okinawa. This is due, in part, to expense of the equipment and liabilities. I believe that the World Tournament held in Okinawa doesn't even include kumite any longer, just kata!

Bogu kumite is merely a sport; however, its usefulness is in the ability to execute strikes/kicks at combat speeds and power. Bogu kumite is just another tool that can be used to help develop the whole karateka. It doesn't replace kata training; it doesn't replace tuite or any other aspect of training. It is just an enhancement.

My personal belief is that being able to strike your opponent at full speed and power and have them do likewise provides a more realistic aspect to training. Certainly you can try to do this without the protection of the gear, but you risk serious injury. A caution however, you have to know how to use the bogu gear to appreciate its value. You don't just strap on the gear and slap at each other. The blows, when properly execute and landed, will definitely hurt. You can get the breath knocked out of you, get knocked out or hurt so much that you can't continue the fight. The gear offers protection from broken ribs and such although I've had some experience where student did get cracked ribs from a well placed back kick.

In Ryute (formerly Ryukyu Kempo) we still practice Bogu. It is part of our culture and history and a tool to help make our technique better. We still hold small inner organization tournaments using bogu. If you are interested. I wrote a little article many years ago about my first experience wearing the bogu. It explains a lot about the importance of the tool www.kushu.com/bogu_kumite.htm

Thanks,

Jim Logue

Welcome Hanshi Logue, glad to have you here as wll as martial warrior :)
--Josh

Troll Basher
22nd January 2005, 06:52
Originally posted by Jim Logue
Perhaps I can share some information about bogu kumite.

First, a little about my experience. I am Taika Oyata's senior ranking student. I began training with him in Okinawa and share responsibility for bringing him to the US and setting up his organization here. In Okinawa, we trained almost daily and bogu kumite was a routine for almost every class. Most of the tournaments held during the time I was there were bogu tournaments. When we had belt tests, it was usually held with the others in the organization and included kata and bogu kumite.

The Okinawan Kempo organization, headed by Shigeru Nakamura, introduced bogu kumite in the late 50's. I believe it had already been introduced to Southern Japan a little earlier. Bogu Kumite was patterned after Kendo which allows practitioners of the sword arts to practice at full force and speed without risk of fatal injury.

Nakamura Hanshi, along with his senior students, introduced bogu kumite as a way to practice karate techniques with full force and speed. Bogu kumite flourished into the early 80s but has since almost disappeared in practice in Okinawa. This is due, in part, to expense of the equipment and liabilities. I believe that the World Tournament held in Okinawa doesn't even include kumite any longer, just kata!

Bogu kumite is merely a sport; however, its usefulness is in the ability to execute strikes/kicks at combat speeds and power. Bogu kumite is just another tool that can be used to help develop the whole karateka. It doesn't replace kata training; it doesn't replace tuite or any other aspect of training. It is just an enhancement.

My personal belief is that being able to strike your opponent at full speed and power and have them do likewise provides a more realistic aspect to training. Certainly you can try to do this without the protection of the gear, but you risk serious injury. A caution however, you have to know how to use the bogu gear to appreciate its value. You don't just strap on the gear and slap at each other. The blows, when properly execute and landed, will definitely hurt. You can get the breath knocked out of you, get knocked out or hurt so much that you can't continue the fight. The gear offers protection from broken ribs and such although I've had some experience where student did get cracked ribs from a well placed back kick.

In Ryute® (formerly Ryukyu Kempo) we still practice Bogu. It is part of our culture and history and a tool to help make our technique better. We still hold small inner organization tournaments using bogu. If you are interested. I wrote a little article many years ago about my first experience wearing the bogu. It explains a lot about the importance of the tool www.kushu.com/bogu_kumite.htm

Thanks,

Jim Logue

Tashi Logue,

Thank you for the information.
I know for a while in Okinawa they switched to the “tippy-tap” JKF/JKA type kumite for the World Tournaments, I don’t know if they have continued that or scrapped doing kumite all together. The ironic thing about “tippy-tap” JKF/JKA type kumite is they were introduced to “allegedly” cut down on injury, however, more people seem to get injured in those “tippy-tap” type of tournaments from poorly placed techniques than ever did in bogu. Which makes me think that possibly injury wasn’t the real reason they quite using bogu but rather people didn’t like getting hit hard.

On several occasions I have tried to convey some of the level of intensity I heard Taika Oyata used to train his students with in Okinawa. Since I wasn’t there back in the 50’s and 60’s I can only relay what I have heard from you, Taika, and several others that were there. I used to have a student named Tsubota that trained with Taika and Mr. Nakamura about the same time as Bob Boggs and Joe Lewis did back in the mid 60’s…..I don’t think many people today have the character to stick with the kind of training they did.
When I trained at Kyoshi Lindguist’s/Kyoshi Stark’s dojo I thought that was “intense” (some of us would do bogu as a warm up before we started the real class) but from what my buddy Tsubota described Taika’s dojo in Okinawa would make Hell look like Club Med.

Jim Logue
22nd January 2005, 12:52
I know for a while in Okinawa they switched to the “tippy-tap” JKF/JKA type kumite for the World Tournaments, I don’t know if they have continued that or scrapped doing kumite all together. The ironic thing about “tippy-tap” JKF/JKA type kumite is they were introduced to “allegedly” cut down on injury, however, more people seem to get injured in those “tippy-tap” type of tournaments from poorly placed techniques than ever did in bogu. Which makes me think that possibly injury wasn’t the real reason they quite using bogu but rather people didn’t like getting hit hard.


It is my understanding that at the World Tournament someone actually died. I can't verify this, but I was told by a good source. Anyway, I have witnessed many injuries at "point" tournaments.

In bogu kumite, you understand that your opponent is going to hit you, so you must learn to defend against the attack or counter so that he gets the full brunt of the attack. In point karate, the rules don't allow contact so you are unprepared if the opponent actually hits you. Unfortunately in point karate there are accidents, but there is also intentional contact.

Bogu kumite is not without risk either. There are rules, like no groin kicks, no hitting off the gear, etc. I remember in Okinawa when were were competing with another dojo, one of Taika's Okinawan students got kicked in the groin and had to stop the fight. Taika wasn't mad at the guy they did the kicking, he was mad at his student for allowing the kick to get through. He said, "a fight is a fight. You should have been aware that someone could kick you in the groin. What would happen in a real fight."

The lesson Taika was teaching in the example above is that even though bogu kumite is a sport and there are rules, don't rely on the rules to protect you. The job of protection is yours! You should always consider that you can get hit anywhere and in bogu kumite you are surely going to get hit if you don't defend properly.

Jim Logue

Troll Basher
22nd January 2005, 13:00
Originally posted by Jim Logue
It is my understanding that at the World Tournament someone actually died. I can't verify this, but I was told by a good source. .........
Jim Logue

It wouldn’t surprise if it was canceled. I heard mixed reviews about it…. and the judging.
That’s too bad. Okinawa being the birth place of karate I think it should have some kind of event to celebrate that fact.

Troll Basher
22nd January 2005, 13:25
Originally posted by Jim Logue


Bogu kumite is not without risk either. There are rules, like no groin kicks, no hitting off the gear, etc. I remember in Okinawa when were were competing with another dojo, one of Taika's Okinawan students got kicked in the groin and had to stop the fight. Taika wasn't mad at the guy they did the kicking, he was mad at his student for allowing the kick to get through. He said, "a fight is a fight. You should have been aware that someone could kick you in the groin. What would happen in a real fight."

The lesson Taika was teaching in the example above is that even though bogu kumite is a sport and there are rules, don't rely on the rules to protect you. The job of protection is yours! You should always consider that you can get hit anywhere and in bogu kumite you are surely going to get hit if you don't defend properly.

Jim Logue


I can just see Taika saying that too!!!

chizikunbo
22nd January 2005, 16:49
Originally posted by Troll Basher
I can just see Taika saying that too!!!

Ive Never met Taika but it sureis real world advice :)

Jim Logue
26th January 2005, 02:59
Thought you might be interested in my old men. This was purchased in Okinawa about 35 years ago and has been well used. It's still in use today, but may soon be retired.
http://www.kushu.com/images/men.jpg


Jim Logue

Troll Basher
26th January 2005, 04:42
Originally posted by Jim Logue
Thought you might be interested in my old men. This was purchased in Okinawa about 35 years ago and has been well used. It's still in use today, but may soon be retired.
http://www.kushu.com/images/men.jpg


Jim Logue

It has a nice dent in it!!!

CEB
26th January 2005, 14:29
I'm just curious. Why do some of you guys tuck you jackets into your pants? Is it so you don't need a belt. Thanks.

Troll Basher
26th January 2005, 14:38
Originally posted by CEB
I'm just curious. Why do some of you guys tuck you jackets into your pants? Is it so you don't need a belt. Thanks.

If you are talking to the RyuTe® people then the answer is because we don't wear a Japanese style karate Gi, we wear what is called a “nobakama” ……which is a kind of Hakama.

CEB
26th January 2005, 14:45
Thanks.

Troll Basher
26th January 2005, 15:01
Last weekends bogu pics....
These go in order from 1~6

Troll Basher
26th January 2005, 15:03
2

Troll Basher
26th January 2005, 15:06
3

Troll Basher
26th January 2005, 15:08
4

Troll Basher
26th January 2005, 15:10
5

Troll Basher
26th January 2005, 15:13
6

Troll Basher
26th January 2005, 15:17
Sparring with Bos......

Rob Alvelais
26th January 2005, 15:32
Messrs. Logue, Rousselot,

Could you two comment a bit on the kumite with the bo?

Specifically, what strikes do you limit the kumite to and do you moderate the power of the strikes? Do you use the whipping type strikes that one sees in Yamane Ryu?

It looks from the pictures that you're using standard hardwood bo. I'd have thought that would cause some serious blunt trauma, bogu or not.

comments please.


Rob

Troll Basher
26th January 2005, 15:37
Originally posted by Rob Alvelais
Messrs. Logue, Rousselot,

Could you two comment a bit on the kumite with the bo?

Specifically, what strikes do you limit the kumite to and do you moderate the power of the strikes? Do you use the whipping type strikes that one sees in Yamane Ryu?

It looks from the pictures that you're using standard hardwood bo. I'd have thought that would cause some serious blunt trauma, bogu or not.

comments please.


Rob



I have students aim for the protective equipment….other than that they can do what they want. I haven’t seen anyone get any serious injuries as of yet….no more so than regular weaponless bogu that is.


As for whipping strikes……they don’t seem to be very effective against another Bo…..at least in my experience.

Yes, the Bos are standard right off the shelf Shureido Bos.

CEB
26th January 2005, 15:44
I'm sure they are using common sense with the staves Rob. I mean there has to be some sort of control with some of the technique. Even with the men a full speed nage uchi would tear off someones head.

What kind of gloves are these? Hand protection for kumi bo could have good uses. I thought about hockey gloves. Doug recomended cricket gloves.

Thanks

Troll Basher
26th January 2005, 15:47
Originally posted by CEB


What kind of gloves are these? Hand protection for kumi bo could have good uses. I thought about hockey gloves. Doug recomended cricket gloves.

Thanks

Those are shin pads on their form arms and MMA gloves.....in the future I am going to use Hockey gloves.

I am trying to get a "Redman" suit that the MPs on Camp Zama use but they are damn expensive!..something like $1,000 bucks (not sure though) ..I hope a couple "fall off the back of a truck" and finds it's way to me some time.

CEB
26th January 2005, 15:49
Thanks again.

Rob Alvelais
26th January 2005, 15:59
Thanks Robert!

Rob

chizikunbo
26th January 2005, 17:35
Originally posted by Jim Logue
Thought you might be interested in my old men. This was purchased in Okinawa about 35 years ago and has been well used. It's still in use today, but may soon be retired.
http://www.kushu.com/images/men.jpg


Jim Logue

Thats Neat stuff, thanks for sharing Hanshi Logue.
I cant belive its lasted that long ^_^

chizikunbo
26th January 2005, 17:43
Originally posted by Troll Basher
If you are talking to the RyuTe® people then the answer is because we don't wear a Japanese style karate Gi, we wear what is called a “nobakama” ……which is a kind of Hakama.

Also sometimes refered to as Field Hakama or "O-Hakama"
It eliminates the need for the standard karate obi :)

Jim Logue
26th January 2005, 22:11
I'm just curious. Why do some of you guys tuck you jackets into your pants? Is it so you don't need a belt. Thanks.

Ed Boyd

The hakama style gi serves two purposes. 1st, because of the way it ties, it helps support the back. 2nd, it eliminates the use of a belt which can often be the source of ego.


Could you two comment a bit on the kumite with the bo?

Specifically, what strikes do you limit the kumite to and do you moderate the power of the strikes? Do you use the whipping type strikes that one sees in Yamane Ryu?

It looks from the pictures that you're using standard hardwood bo. I'd have thought that would cause some serious blunt trauma, bogu or not.

comments please.

Rob

If you are using a hardword bo, yes, you need to moderate the power somewhat. Depending on what type of do (chest protector) you are using, you may be able to apply more power; however, the men (head gear) and kote (gloves) limit the amount of force you can use and still remain safe.

I made practice bo by attaching two shinai together with pvc. I had to shorten the shinai a bit and slid the ends into the pvc pipe. A rubber covered pvc pipe works ok, but the weight and feel are not the same.

The "shinai bo" allows a little force to be used and keeps the weight of the bo more realistic. The shinai bo also allows for whipping actions to be applied; however, we usually practice short strikes to the arms, pokes to the body and head and trapping techniques.

With the bo, there are numerous traps, not just strikes. The strike (poke) sets up the trap and these are easily practiced using the bogu gear.

Jim Logue

Troll Basher
26th January 2005, 22:19
Originally posted by chizikunbo
Also sometimes refered to as Field Hakama or "O-Hakama"
It eliminates the need for the standard karate obi :)

The word “nobakama” means “field hakama” ………the “O-hakama” is actually something different…it is just a polite form for the word “hakama” as in the Aikido type.

chizikunbo
27th January 2005, 17:29
Domo Arigato Gozaimasu :smilejapa

Thanks for the correction ^_^

Troll Basher
30th January 2005, 12:51
Todays Bogu highlights

Troll Basher
30th January 2005, 12:53
punch2

Troll Basher
30th January 2005, 12:55
punch photo #3

Troll Basher
30th January 2005, 12:57
# 4

Troll Basher
30th January 2005, 12:59
#5

Troll Basher
30th January 2005, 13:01
# 6

Michael Bland
31st January 2005, 02:46
And that looks like it was his left. You should see his right cross. ouch. *smile*

chizikunbo
31st January 2005, 17:39
You all do alot of Kumite ^_^ Thanks for the pics

Troll Basher
31st January 2005, 22:18
Originally posted by chizikunbo
You all do alot of Kumite ^_^ Thanks for the pics


Almost every class......