Is Testing Really Necessary?

[Tetsutaka]

That comes along with the perceived performance objectives. I put my expectations on a per-student basis. If I see that they are not challenged, I set the bar higher for them.

I could get into anecdotes, but I think you know what I mean. You have to understand your student "comfort level" and quickly move them out of it. Public testing helps.


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Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[KenpoKev]

Great Topic!

In one dojo I trained at, stripes were awarded during class reviews, however testing was formalized.

In my dojo, I do not charge tuition (donations only) and I do charge a nominal fee $15-$25, which includes membership in a national sactioning organization at the 4th Kyu. I do group testing (partners) through our 6th Kyu, and from that point on it is an individual test basis.

I have not promoted a Shodan as yet, but that will be a very special event and there will be no fee. I intend on making that promotion something they will never forget!

My Professor structured my Shodan test in an unusual (I think) manner. For the month leading up to the test "date", I had gruelling evaluations with our chief instructor and with Professor. These usually consisted of 3-4 hour sessions covering every element of our system, with me having to perform the material and explain it (as if teaching). When the test date finally came, our chief instructor called me in the morning and told me to relax and enjoy the experience that evening. Yea right! My Uke and I prepared for a crucible evening, yet Professor had me do maybe 30 techniques, 6 kata and answer some questions, largely on the subject of teaching. An hour and a half later, I was presented with my belt and the admonition that "now you know this much" while Professor mimicked holding a grain of sand in this fingertips. (I agree!)

Sorry, I digress. However, those "evaluations" I was put through, were really the test! The "test" was really just a formality. I like that approach, especially for Shodan and above.
Respectfully
Kevin Schaller

[MarkF]

Is a test for invancement or grading in rank really ncessary? Does anyone not test, but instead promotes on the basis of observing the students training level? Is a fee really necessary above and beyond monthly fees? How many of you have failed a student when they have paid the apppropriate fees?
I though of this while replying to a post concerning making a living from martial arts.

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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[hyaku]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MarkF:
Is a test for invancement or grading in rank really ncessary?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In a word, "no". But I think it would be rather difficult explaining to people that Dan grades are were not originally part a parcel of martial arts.

I think Japanese people can sometimes be the worst offenders. They are so materialistic nowadays. "If I do this what do I get from and what do I stand to gain?" How much money do you get from this?. Nothing! Then why do you do it?

I took a Buddhist priest to Hyoho Niten Ichiryu tonight.
After he finished practice he asked how much the fee would be. When he was tol "We don't talk about money" he was dumbfounded
...............................
Hyakutake http://www2.saganet.ne.jp/sword

[Tetsutaka]

Considering that so much of the Japanese monetary ethos can range from mercenary to monastic, I don't think we can look to them for lessons in how ot conduct business in the US.

Inasmuch as we [in the US] can't always understand their way of doing things in Japan, so they do not necessarily understand the nature of doing business in the US. There are exceptions of course, but that only proves the general rule.

For everything you do [or don't do] in your dojo business, have a reason. Be able to explain it clearly to your students. Treat your studnets like clients, not like family. That is an easy way to avoid abuse from either side of the relationship. Forget oyabun/kobun here in the US. Leave that for the Saturday matinee movies...

As Harry Truman said, "If you want a friend - get a dog."

If you don't want to be taken seriously as a professional - please ignore my advice and do whatever you want.

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Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[Tetsutaka]

...and another thing...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MarkF:
Is a test for invancement or grading in rank really ncessary?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that depends...

The idea of testing is giving the student a concrete point of evaluation. The objective of martial arts is teach things that the student did not know how to do before. With that new knowledge, there should also be an expected level of performance. There should be concrete established expections on performance that the student should understand going in. This should be established on a per-student basis. This is not a one-size-fits-all kind of thing.

The test itself can also be helpful in aloowing hte studnet to work through a stressful event - the test itself. While it is not the same thing as being mugged, it can give them the adrenal state that can show them they can previal in a less than ideal circumstnace.

If that kind of preparation is not he goal of your martial art, then perhaps testing is not necessary.




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Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[Simon Fraser]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tetsutaka:
...and another thing...

The test itself can also be helpful in aloowing hte studnet to work through a stressful event - the test itself. While it is not the same thing as being mugged, it can give them the adrenal state that can show them they can previal in a less than ideal circumstnace.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree completely, with all of what you say, but I wanted to follow up on the point above. Have you ever encountered anyone who wasn't nervous about a grading or test? If they're not anxious about it, is it a sign that the test is not hard enough, or perceived as too easy?

[Gil Gillespie]

Hmmmm. Showed up, tested,then disappeared. A frequent baffling phenomenon. Originally I shared the view that testing and promotion were unnecessary & "not why I was training." I also shared a white belt's near sightedness.

I now see testing as a rhythm or a pulse in a dojo. As testing approaches even instruction has a different flavor. From sensei to lowest kyu there is a sharper focus and sense of expectation.

We just completed testing again this week. One of the fellows hates testing and promotion. But in discussing his test with the board afterwards there took place an exchange of perspective and observation that would not have transpired in the course of normal training.

In our dojo testing for ikkyu and shodan is only done when the senseis perceive readiness. Students may discuss their readiness but no one merely accumulates hours and advances. This policy was implemented to ensure that growth in spirit, focus, reishiki, and personal demeanor were keeping up with technique.

[Paul Mathews]

As a professional educator I have learned that a test is itself a learning experience. I agree with the above thoughts about the need for the experience of the stress that testing brings about. Testing also offers opportunities for the student to discover that those "little things" that I have been harping about during their training are important and can screw up their technique when it is performed under duress.

I charge a fee for testing/promotion for two reasons. First, it covers the cost of their new obi and diploma. Second, western mentality dictates that the more something costs, the more important it is. Our fees are not exorbitant, but they do indicate to the student the importance of each testing. I generally take the fees before the testing begins, however, in the unlikely event that the student fails the test (unlikely because they don't test until I'm sure they are ready) I return the fee. The purpose of taking the fees before testing is to ensure that the student is serious about the test. I have had students in the past who showed up, tested, then disappeared.

Paul

[Aric]

&lt;sigh&gt;... I guess I'm not professional or taken seriously...

Even though I have a group of 7 dedicated students who ARE like family. And about a dozen others in my dojo who aren't as regular. They all pay dues.

They do not pay 'testing' or 'grading' or 'promotion' fees. They are tested. They are always testing too. That's what the idea of observing for evaluation is. Constant testing.

And then in fact there is a formal test. It may be 30 seconds or 20 minutes. But it is standardized for each kyu. And people often fail. Because they are hard tests.

The student then buys himself a new belt (if necessary... we only use white/green/black). He is formally congratulated on passing. A 'congratulations' and a handshake or a hug (or both) clinches the deal.

In our dojo (as passed to me by my instructor) testing is about using a certain aspect of your *skill* to react to a pressure situation. Each kyu has a particular level of skill and strategy that is expected, in addition to the memorization of techniques or curriculum.

The 'pressure' portion of the test isn't known to the students before hand. It's always a mystery. It isn't always explained afterward either.

Aric Keith

[MarkF]

I underatnd your reasoning, but I am really wondering what value it has when you know the student ot be ready. I have never promote a studnet based on a test. If I could work one which is tailored to the individual, but I can't. it is like going to the inner city and testin students on books they not only don't enjoy, but have never live out sied his own neighborhood. Could it not be possible to see the students advancement, and character in the ten years it might take to promote a gifted student who is being ranked shodan, after ten years study without the need for the test? Isn't he deserving if he ahs never asked for this or indeed mentioned it? A completely selfless individual would rank something after that amount of time of steady shooling in judo, wouldn't he?

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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[Aric]

I disagree somewhat with your analogy, Mark, but I think your approach here is very good. The approach I use is the one I like, and certainly not the only valid one.

It also depends on what rank means to you, your students, your teacher, your organization.

Aric Keith

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MarkF:
I underatnd your reasoning, but I am really wondering what value it has when you know the student ot be ready. I have never promote a studnet based on a test. If I could work one which is tailored to the individual, but I can't. it is like going to the inner city and testin students on books they not only don't enjoy, but have never live out sied his own neighborhood. Could it not be possible to see the students advancement, and character in the ten years it might take to promote a gifted student who is being ranked shodan, after ten years study without the need for the test? Isn't he deserving if he ahs never asked for this or indeed mentioned it? A completely selfless individual would rank something after that amount of time of steady shooling in judo, wouldn't he?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Mitch Saret]

I have studied in dojo where, all of a sudden at the end of class, new belts were handed out. I have also studied in dojo where we were formally tested. Personally I liked the formal testing better.

In my school we test on a regular basis. The test results are held off until the next class, anticipation is a wonderful motivator.

As far as the fees, colored belts are so cheap that I can't see charging a testing fee for them. Diplomas for kyu grades are done on my PC, but I can get them from the association for $12, again not enough to charge for.

If you really need the amount of money you would get from a kyu grade test, assuming you are just covering costs and not ripping the students, add the total of a years worth of tests, divide by 12, and add that amount to your monthly dues. That serves the same purpose without the students having to come up with more money every few months.

At shodan and above, however, we do have a testing fee. This covers the cost of a high quality embroidered belt, a hand brushed certificate, a video tape copy of the ceremony, and usually a small dinner afterwards. No one has ever complained about the hefty dan fee, but I am positive many would for underbelts.


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With respect,

Mitch Saret

[MarkF]

I just dont think testing shows anyone anything except pride in accomplishment. If one understands that this promotion is coming, and everyday in he dojo he is tested somehow, how would a formal test and high-quality certificate do anything except lift self-pride for the moment? Would not a test over time be a truer test than one done on one day?

I think how a person handles themselves with others, including his fighting spirit to be a better, but longer process. I don't think a test, as such, does anything except to separate levels of training. If this is the true meaning of advancement (as J. Kano had always maintained), might it not move a student on to even greater things if this were truly an unknown? This seems similer to Walden University and others like it (schools without walls), or grading on a pass fail system. Testing all students on the same techniques would seem not to bring the best out of him/her, but rather would water down the gifted student to be "a master of none." All have talent in different areas so shouldn't this be exploited instead of the generalized test given to all students? I believe the test is an on going thing in the dojo with the student having full knowlege that he/she is being tested at all times. Someone who knows waza better than another does not make a better student, just a different one. Some are just better at being good.



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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[Gil Gillespie]

To repeat what I said above, I used to agree with you, Mark, but time lead to an adjustment in my view. Above pride and ego, which we try to avoid, testing enervates the entire dojo like cherry blossoms coming in or trees turning do to the natural world.

Testing pushes the wallflower budoka into the spotlight where s(he) goes through self-examination as well as exam before the board.
And sometimes people don't pass! Two of the best budoka I know were asked to retest for their ikkyu years ago.

If it's true that budo reveals character as much as building it, that goes even more for testing. Last year a quiet young woman tested so beautifully, powerfully, and gracefully for nidan that the entire budo comunity was energized for weeks. Similarly years ago a wealthy budoka failed his nidan test and instead of "woodshedding" he took his toys and opened his own dojo where he is now a godan in 2 arts!!!

All the above nagatives such as ego, exhorbitant fees, etc. are potential but the worth of testing is born out by the spirit of the dojo and of the budoka.

[MarkF]

Thanks all for the replies. I all ready think I knew what the responses would be, but I didn't know why. It does make one wonder. In judo, I have seen or known of tests, such as: "If you can throw these five judoka, you have your sandan." I have seen people promoted in the locker room (really just notified that he would be promoted) and I, myself, have gone through both. If one can fail, then it is perfectly logical. If one can't, then those are easily inderstood, as well.

Someone on another thread (I can't remember which) asked, or stated, that no one fails. It is indeed nice for those to be honest about it. Now that we know people fail these tests, are there any out there who have failed grading tests?



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Mark F. Feigenbaum

[Tetsutaka]

I have seen a test where someone was graded to be *nearly* qualified, but did not pass the test. They were then notified that they would be allowed to test at the next interval for the next level belt. In essence, they could test through two levels at the next test date.

The stipulation was that they would have to go thoroughly through both levels at time of test *after a regular class*. Yikes. This was an effort to allow them to continue training on the next level, and complete their skills for the present level. But, they would have the distinct disadvantage of having to perform two complete levels when their "gas tank" was on empty.

Since this was a kyu test, I thought it was very fairly administered, and it was put in a light that allowed the person to know that they could progress, but the next test was going to be THOROUGH.

Ouch...

http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[This message has been edited by Tetsutaka (edited 06-18-2000).]

[Joseph Svinth]

Somebody asked whether anyone went to a test without stress. I did that once. Shodan, actually. I'd been getting a professional massage and it ran overtime, and so I almost skipped the promotion. (You can always get promoted, you can't always get a good massage.)But then I decided what the heck, I'd go watch my buddy get promoted instead. Anyhow, I showed up late with a smile on my face, and I guess Great Grand Poohbah was annoyed because he immediately called me up front to be his uke for some technique for which he said there was no known defense. With this preamble and no clue what he was going to do, he told me to throw a reverse punch at his head. (A stupid way to start a fight if you ask me, but what do I know, I just do what I'm told.) So he did whatever he was doing and I was nice and relaxed and just flowed with it and as a result he pulled my right elbow into his head so hard that he fell down and they had to have him go lie down awhile. Meanwhile I just stood there wondering what all the fuss was about, as all I'd done was what he said. (Remember, he said, "Throw a reverse punch at my head," he didn't say "Tank for me.")

Anyway, they told me to go sit down and didn't have me do anything else for the rest of the afternoon. Afterwards my instructor, who was still trying hard not to laugh, came up and told me to go buy a black belt, I'd been promoted.

That said, I must admit that the certificate was signed by my instructor rather than Great Grand Poohbah. Which I thought pretty neat, as my instructor's signature didn't cost me anything, while Poohbah's you had to pay for... (Rank's okay, but between us, I'd much rather they gave me money instead.)

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Joe
http://ejmas.com

[szczepan]

All these ranks and testing - what a nonsense - are we practice martial arts or going to school?

How you want to test understanding The Way?
Someone needs testing his skills under stress? - no prob, go on the street and fight for real - don't cheat and play big fighter in the dojo.

When you practice martial art seriously you are testing every second of your life.Doesnt matter there are 5 millions ppl around or you are alone.

regardz


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Szczepan Janczuk

[MarkF]

Saucepan,
It sure is nice to have you around. Mabe we could start a thread called, is there aiki in gendai?:D

[szczepan]

Originally posted by MarkF
Saucepan,
It sure is nice to have you around. Mabe we could start a thread called, is there aiki in gendai?:D

hi MarkF,

My name is Szczepan.Do you understand how to use copy/paste function on your pc if spelling is too difficult? :rolleyes:

I didn't mean to kill topic, but more I practice, more honest I am.Sorry.

regardz

[Osoto2000]

Hey Saucepan,
I think you missed Marks point there, didn't you? :rolleyes:

[Tetsutaka]

Uhhh... is this a test of resistance to thread drift? ;)

[MarkF]

Szczepan,
It was a mild attempt at humor and, considering how people have slaughtered my name over the last forty-nine years, a bad one, I admit that. I happen to like what you post, and notwihtstanding my purposeful misspelling of your name, one I thought you would see. I apologize for hurting you. I do, in fact, agree. I see testing as a waste of time, providing your egeo doesn't need that boost by timely testing.:(

Here is a little test we all might learn from, and it comes with a little saying: "Patience is a virtue." If all this training is making one an insufferable bore, than what has one learned from the training? Nothing, probably.

[Edited by MarkF on 06-21-2000 at 02:50 AM]

[szczepan]

Originally posted by MarkF
Szczepan,
It was a mild attempt at humor and, considering how

[Edited by MarkF on 06-21-2000 at 02:50 AM]

:o oops....I'm 5th kyu in English-jutsu....

[MarkF]

Szczepan,
Yeah, its on of those "forbidden waza."

[Walt Harms]

Good discussion, I have tested in more than one art and more than one country. I myself don not enjoy testing: taker or giver. I think that a minimal test is ok but, If given the same test and the same criteria should apply for all, and if there is no pass/fail it shouldn't be given. Being tested I have always felt that if some one obviously fails and is still promoted it reduces the value of my belt.
Thanks

[Dojorat]

Greetins,

There was a "Rank Testing and Promotion" at an affiliated school of ours in another town. In attendance were two Ikkyu (Brown belts approaching Black). One (we'll call him "Buck") had moved away from town and, while working our basic style requirements on his own, had joined and was predominantly "cross-training" in another system since he had no access to a club of our particular style. He'd heard we were having this event and decided to "come on down!" The other (we'll call her Florence), in addition to dedicated daily practice with the club, had organized an exhibition at a local special camp for children suffering serious illnesses such as leukemia, heart ailments and others. Unfortunately, the demo was scheduled for the same day as the "testing" so she was compelled to leave the testing for a couple of hours while she, and some classmates she had organized, did the demo. She had asked me to participate. We had a great time and the kid's smiles and delightful fascination with what we were doing (especially when you consider what they faced in their daily struggle with life and death) truly made that day an "Emersonian" success, if there ever was one. Getting back to the "reality" and returning to the "THE TEST", Florence had difficulties which were obviously compounded by her distraction with the demo. Buck (who didn't take part in the demo, by the way) went through "THE TEST" like I would expect with his natural ability and skill. He performed well and did everything expected.

Who should've gotten advanced in rank at the end of the day?

What does that say about what we're trying to "promote" with the practice of martial arts?

Please advise.

Cheers,

Joe Montague

[Chuck Clark]

In Jiyushinkai we do not have "tests" as such. Instructors and teachers evaluate students at all times. We have a set of guidelines for required knowledge and minimum time in grade which everyone should meet at minimum standards. The instructor lets the student know that they are being promoted soon and should prepare to do a public demonstration. This serves to help the student learn how to deal with the jitters, etc. and also serves as a "right of passage" so juniors can see what a new shodan (or whatever) should look like. It also serves as a tool for the seniors to use to learn what they need to work on in their instruction. It always turns out to be a celebration.

We do not have testing fees, only a nominal charge for promotion.

[Gil Gillespie]

Chuck

That's nothing but wonderful! I try to encourage our white belts to not think of testing, but that they are merely "demonstrating" how far they've come along the Path, How "good" they are as the peptalk goes. Your dojo's philosophy is exemplary. It combines the long term observation promotion with the focus and dojo community emotion of testing. It must indeed be a celebration. I love the whole concept!

[MarkF]

Chuck Clark originally posted:We do not have testing fees, only a nominal charge for promotion.

__________________
Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
http://www.jiyushinkai.org







BBRRRRRRRaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazz.aaaaaaaaayyyyyyaaaah

[Chuck Clark]

Mark,

I must admit that I don't understand your last communication.

[MarkF]

Chuck,
The most honest answer is that it made me laugh. The fact you don't charge for testing, but charge for the promotion is thought to be the same thing. Sorry I found it funny.:(

[Paul Mathews]

Joe,
I understand your frustrations. I have had similar experiences where very dedicated students tested at the same time as a less dedicated but more physically talented student. I think the point that you should consider centers on whether the test is the sole criteria of promotion.

While we have been discussing the relative merits of testing we may not have paid enough attention to where the testing fits into the scheme of things. For my part, a student doesn't test until I think they are ready for promotion. The test is much like a right of passage. It is just one more hurdle which I hope brings some closure to the period of training for a certain rank while opening up thepossibilities inherant in the training for the next rank. It is a benchmark. This is especially true at the higher mudansha levels as well as for shodan.

While I feel that testing is an important part of the process, it is not a conundrum for me as to who deserved the promotion more. It is obvious from your post that you agree that the young lady was more deserving.

Paul

[Chuck Clark]

Mark,

Many organizations charge for testing (even if you fail) and then also charge for a promotion fee. We only charge for the promotion and it is a way of getting some funds to run the organization. I believe in keeping costs to a level that just about anyone can afford them.

There's no such thing as a "Free Lunch." If you have a patron who pays the bills...that usually "costs" in hidden ways too. As I said before, I've found that most people do not value things that don't cost something. The trick is in keeping it ethical and equitable.

[MarkF]

Hi Chuck,
I agree with you. That is not why I found it funny. Without a little more explanation, it just struck me so. It was not a put-down, or anything else of how you do things. I also agree that certain things do require a show of value, and today, money, unfortunatly, is the only clear way. I don't test as such, but students know they are being "tested" and that I place more importance on a students general "wa" than how they might fare during a given test. That is how many with whom I came up, see the matter as well. As far as the fee, I tell them immediately after promotion how much and the reason for the charge, IE, the cost of the obi. If one knows everything he does and the goal of promotion (I rather like the term "grading" a students level of training), s/he will understand this from the get-go, and the ones who stand around with their thumbs hooked on to the belt around h/her waist, is not going to advance frequently.

So if you are offended by my first glance at the wording of how you charge for the thing, I apologize, but please do not take any offense. I happen to like your website and in general, I agree with you on most points. As it was brought up in koryu, I think highly of your abilities. Is the invitation still good for a chance to visit and "see more of the elephant?:D

[Chuck Clark]

No problems, Mark.

I understand how those of us who've been around "awhile" get a bit like the folks from Missouri about budo claims.

Anytime you're in the area, give us a call.

[D. Chopper]

I find points on both sides of the coin to be valid. but in general, I think some rite of passage is in order--something that gets the nerves up, as it were.

Money, well, we charge to cover the cost of the belts, plus a little--maybe 10 bucks total. We don't charge for dan grades. By that time, the student has paid enough. And we furnish the belt. Not a fancy silk one. Just black and cotton like the rest. No embroidery. It's all very plain.

But I think that one of the most important things to remember is that the test is also for us as instructors. It's generally agreed that we wouldn't "test" a student without their being ready. But we have all seen our students not live up to our own expectations--or just perform less-admirably than usual.

This gives us an idea of what we need to teach and whether we need to make adjustments in the curriculum. As teachers, we should also be seeking the most efficient way to extract the most efficient performance from our students.

In karate,


D. Chopper

[MarkF]

This, indeed, was a post well worth the effort. Even if I do not agree, and in nanka in Los Angeles, most did not test. Certain aspects of performance were, as an example, how you performed at shiai was always one of the criteria, a major one, but not the only one. If you were a serious competitior, there for nothing but getting into the Olympics and world championships, then it counted heavily. If it was more fore the self-defense, then you were expected to perform kata well. There are many others, and it is not a perfect system by any means, but when comparing notes, if seems it is about even with those who test. probably the only real difference was a certain change in attitude when one knew testing was coming, but I also made note of something similar in the way I do it. It took me ten years to be graded for dan, so it does say something about the teacher, and, no doubt, me;)

[kenshorin]

In re: to Mark's statement...

I underatnd your reasoning, but I am really wondering what value it has when you know the student ot be ready



The main reason I run tests isn't so much for myself... I know in advance who I am going to pass, because if they aren't ready I don't put them up for it. It is more or less a demonstration than a test... I make it mandatory that the students bring someone with them to the "test" so that they can build confidence doing karate in front of others who aren't part of the dojo. secondly, there is always this feeling of accomplishment the student takes away, even if there was no way i would fail them based on a test alone...

[D. Chopper]

I think you may have missed my point a bit. As I said, it seems that none of us would put up a student who was not ready to test. However, it is usually the case when someone tests that they don;t perform quite as well as during the day-to-day dojo training. The comfort level has gone down.

Just because they do quite well during daily training doesn't mean that they will do well when the "pressure" is on.

And that is what I mean by getting feedback about instruction. How do they perform under pressure? Diffrently? Then adjustments need to be. Eithe more intense session, or perhaps less-intense session.

My point is that as instructors we should constantly be looking to evaluate ourselves and improve what we do. A testing situation gives us some of that feedback. I wouldn't be so selfish as to have a student test merely to see whether I had done a good job.

But I will see where their shortcomings are. And if a majority of the dojo has problems with certain techiniques or concepts, then those need to accentuated.

That is what I mean that as instructors, we are tested, also.

In karate,


D. Chopper

[Paul Mathews]

Just to add to Mr. Chopper's comments above; one of the primary purposes of scholastic evaluation IS to determine just how well the educator has done his/her job. Unfortunately, in the classroom as well as in the dojo, too often the instructor takes the credit for outstanding performances while placing the blame for less than adequate performances on the student.

As I stated previously, testing should be an opportunity for learning. Sometimes I learn as much from the testing as the student does.

Paul

[Walt Harms]

all the comments have been insightful. My point however hasn't been truly addressed. Re-stated; if a test is given it should be a real test with pass/fail criteria, it should apply equally to all (the bar should be at the same height for all taking the test) lastly it should test what is taught.

Walt Harms

[Joseph Svinth]

One thing your test criteria fail to address, Walt, is how the student fires the teacher for incompetence. If a student fails, what corrective measures were taken beforehand to ensure he was qualified for the test? If the student fails twice, what remedial training was provided? And if several students fail, then the fault is almost surely that of the instructor rather than the student.

In the pre-WWII era in the US, the clubs had parental supervisory groups that got rid of instructors who didn't deliver the goods. Unfortunately, few modern MA schools have parental supervisory groups. Instead they are either clubs or businesses, and as a result the only restraints on the instructor are market demands and the law.

As for the organizations, well, let's get real -- in the MA, we don't fire the incompetents, we just put them in charge of the Yudanshakai.

Anyway, it is my belief that were we to get rid of the self-inflated balloons on top, then the problems of the club supervisors and their troopies should quickly resolve themselves. However, this is unlikely. Therefore the best that we as instructors can do is try to develop students who will not embarrass us or themselves either in public or in contests with students of their own relative ability.

The easiest way is to hold no promotions at all. That way everyone is a white belt, to include the instructor, and their are no expectations of prowess save what student/instructor can make work for him/her. If your white belt can throw the Japanese national champion, so? That isn't embarrassing for you or your white belt, is it? And if your 10-dan can't throw the white belt's grandma, well, who is more embarrassed? If I were in 10-dan's association, I would be humiliated.

If promotions are the issue, get rid of them. Contest goes as contest goes, beginner, intermediate, advanced, and national class. Tournament officials on duty wear blue jackets and are called Mr./Mrs. Coaches wear black belts and are called Mr./Mrs. Players are called players and wear white, brown, or black belts, depending on status. They get called by name.

Meanwhile party hacks,yudanshakai heads, and the rest of the politicians and hangers-on are charged full retail if they want admission to the event, and are otherwise given all the respect owed middle-aged fat men by their proctologists. If they aren't coaching, refereeing, or competing, then they are paying customers, and nothing more. (Old guys who offer something of value are one thing, but as a rule Congressmen are harder working, more ethical, and generally helpful to constituents than are MA politicians.)

[kenshorin]

in re: to d.chopper's statement...

Yes, but I feel the EXPECTATION of the instructor is that the student won't do as well on a test date as in class. Yes, it is a comfort level issue, but we as instructors would be doing our students a disservice if all we ever provided for the student was a comfortable environment. The student needs to have experience dealing with situations they are not quite as comfortable with. One of the reasons karate is taught is for self defense. What good are we doing teaching the student all these techniques, if they become paralyzed with fear in a situation where they are confronted on the street because they don't know quite how to handle discomfort? What are they supposed to say to their attacker... "Wait I can't fight you here... but if you fight me at the dojo I'll kick your ass!"

However, the more experienced they are I think they should perform better during a test. Obviously, if a white belt does good during class, but does poorly during a test, that should be expected, but someone testing for a dan level should be given a lot less leeway.

I agree with Paul and Joeseph on the point that instructors should view the test as indicative of their teaching style, whether it is efficient or not. Very nice string from you two because, yes I find sometimes I focus a lot on the students during a test and don't always think of what I am doing wrong so yes this is definitely something we should all keep in mind.

Lastly, Joeseph, the only thing a student can do to "fire" an instructor who is lacking is to leave that school. There is plenty of competition, so as a customer (and that IS what students are) is take their business elsewhere, same as anything.

[MarkF]

Just a quicky remark to Ken's original remark. Sure, that is as good as any. I have demonstrations on a per class basis and I almost always have the students do them. Nothing at all wrong with that, in fact, that is part of my criteria, it is just that the criteria is not set in stone. I have a blind student and there are blind shiai (but only four blind judoka in the state), but I can't hold them to the same things we take for granted. Some are just better at doing kata and others are better at fighting in tournaments, and some want to learn mostly forbidden waza no kata. But all students come in knowing how I do things and that if they are not graded as fast as Joe or Bob, it has nothing to do with anything technical. I might see a flaw which a test cannot find, so yes demonstrations are all part of it. They all get in front of the class and do their thing, be it demonstarting a new throw to doing a basic kata. Kata is a little different in judo, but not everyone can be Anton Geesink or Conrad Thalhammer. That is why I don't test, but they know they are being tested everyday on the mat, at least that is my hope.



Tanks for responding, Ken

[kenshorin]

Mark -

well said. yes, demonstrations are quite an effective tool for handling this as well, and have found that they can help quite a bit. Also, I understand the comment about having handicapped students (we have a deaf student as well) so yes I can understand your point about having a different set of requirements. However, although I have a basic set of requirements, I do modify them for EVERY student, since every student is different. The only other thing I really use tests for is that it makes for a good forum to give feedback to a student. They tend to be more receptive to comments in a high pressure situation than when they are relaxed, and its hard to make comments while they are demonstrating, and a test is generally easier to make corrections than during class (I tend to have less students during a test than I would in a class.)

To refer to the original topic, "is testing really neccessary?" i guess the answer would be no, as you have shown. I just find that a lot of people tend to stress out on the negatives of testing, when it can be a great tool that a teacher can use as a positive.

Great insight in your reply, however, and I will definitely keep that in mind.

[efb8th]

Great thread everyone!

I came up in a college club in the late '60s and my Sensei had 150 students in credit classes. At the end of each class, he would say "Let me know if you're ready to test, so I can schedule it. I never asked for a test. I was just glad to be there. But when my blue and green belt brothers and sisters startetd coming to me as if I were Sempai, he would always sneak up on me with a rank. "Ed, Bill has bronchitis. Can you demonstrate Yawara and Nage at tomorrow's tournament?" Followed by a very public ceremony. He never gave it away, and I never caught on. The only time he personally, formally tested me was for Nidan in Judo and Shodan in Dan Zan Ryu on the same day. It took eight hours and three ukes, but we got through over 400 arts. His last test for me was a call from Missouri. He said he wanted to take me to Nidan in jujitsu. I told him I needed more work in advanced arts, could I have three months? He reluctantly agreed. That was the last time I heard his voice.

In my Dojo, testing was by invitation and private. No fee. Promotions were public celebrations for families and friends, with public demonstrations, many yudansha on the mat for congratulatory throws and pot-luck feasting. Old belts were exchanged for new (recycled) belts and the history of the obi was passed on as well (So a brown obi might have been worn by two or three dan graded dojomates.) All black obi were previously worn by me for at least a month and acccompanied by a weapon (usually a sword) when presented. I was never very good at the professional stuff, but it sure was fun!