New Logo

[MagicElvisaj]

Here it is the New logo!
It is a spinning Manji.
http://www.aaronjones.com/newlogo1.jpg
http://www.aaronjones.com/newlogo2.jpg

Aaron

[Ewok]

Well I dont like it, bland, indistinct and uninspiring.

[Tripitaka of AA]

Is it a Moebius strip... or a big fat Zero?

Are those dots in the corners of the tate?

Did they give much explanation Aaron? Was there a Designer from the Agency, ready to give the blurb on how it was chosen, developed and finalised?

Unity. Oneness. Never-ending path. Optical illusion. Love (as in the phrase used in Tennis for "zero"). Or is it meant to represent that open-mouthed blank expression that people often make when you say "Shorinji Kempo" to them... :eek:

Does it come with an animated GIF graphic for use on websites?

[Tripitaka of AA]

See the report (http://wsko.econ-net.or.jp/report/) on the WSKO page.

The new mark and logo are both registered trade marks. Use of either of these without express permission is an infringement of trade mark law.

Use of either trademarks will only be granted on application and agreement to a detailed contract specifying usage.

We will give you how to make application on our website in March this year.



So can I post this here? Before March? ;)

[MagicElvisaj]

The presentation for the new Logo was only about 20 minutes. They showed it and then played a video. In the Video they explained why they chagned it. As well they explained the maining of the Manji and then meaning of the new logo. Thats about all they did. After that they had some board meetings. I breifly saw one of the new dogi. The logo looks very nice on it.
They have now put a explaination about the new logo at the WSKO site. Here is the link to it. http://wsko.econ-net.or.jp/report/

[Tripitaka of AA]

From the report;


Shorinji Kempo was founded in the town of Tadotsu, Kagawa Prefecture of Japan by the founder Doshin So as a Gyo (discipline) to develop people to be | practiced to date.


I think there may be a line missing, at the point I've marked with |.

[Ade]

Dear All

Gassho

I would have liked to see the tate ken symbol adopted, or even the Shorinjikempo kanji writted onto the uniform vertically, but I think that this symbol is better than the manji which is unacceptable.

This is just a little strange at the moment, as my 7 year old daughter, 6th kyu, Millie said this morning:

"I preferred the old one, a little bit!"

Ade

PS The idea of the monopoly over uniform supply is a far greater concern to me.

PPS I still have 400 BSKF uniform badges, old style collectors edition, in my garage, anybody need one or 5?

[Ewok]

Originally posted by Ade
I would have liked to see the tate ken symbol adopted
Ditto, looks good and has a direct link to SK



or even the Shorinjikempo kanji writted onto the uniform vertically
A bit big and possibly a little tacky (on the sleeve would look alright though)



but I think that this symbol is better than the manji which is unacceptable.

Mmm... I'm still split on this one, yes, the manji looks like a swatstika but in the end its NOT a swastika. The reason it was chosen to be the logo for SK was that it had a connection. But slowly, bit by bit, SK is turning more into a business and moving away from its original purposes. The logo we have now was chosen more for commercial reasons and the unifying of the uniforms is only showing this more. :(

[Tripitaka of AA]

A quick Email to Hombu and the article is already tweaked. Those guys are FAST.

[Anders Pettersson]

Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
A quick Email to Hombu and the article is already tweaked. Those guys are FAST.
She is fast, that is Uebayashi Hidemi san of the WSKO Secretariat that maintains the WSKO website.

Even if Duncan was involved in getting the English correct (both you and I got an email from him) it is Uebayashi-san that do most if not everything on the WSKO homepage.

I am not a native English speaking person but I think of men or boys when someone uses "guys".

/Anders

[satsukikorin]

It's simple, bold, direct, based upon the spinning manji (not too closely, but enough), and has clear meaning within our philosophy. In fact, one could argue that it more effectively expresses our philosophical tenets, although it doesn't carry any historical gravity as does the manji. Overall, I don't think I could ask for much more.

Again (for, like, the fourth time), I liked the old manji. But I think it's been clearly established that "I like it" is not a good enough reason to keep it. It offends and even frightens some people?\enough people that it does not advance our cause. All this rationalization ("Yeah, but it SHOULDN'T offend them!") is self-centered and gets us nowhere. It is our responsibility to meet people halfway. The manji is obviously a big part of our history, and we can introduce and explain and explore it AFTER we have secured the confidence of our audience. It's a sure bet that the topic will come up sooner or later in every kenshi's studies.

Ade, you may have mentioned in the earlier thread when we discussed our own ideas for a new logo, but please indulge me: what is it that you like about the tate ken?

[tony leith]

OK, I admit that compared to the deformed palm tree masquerading as a manji that I thought we might end up with (see earlier thread on the topic), it's not that bad. It is fairly striking and distinctive visually. I still would probably have preferred the more recogniseable 'swirly manji', but I can live with that on my dogi.

Tony Leith

[erikboman]

I have been looking forward to the release of this logo for a long time, and I must say that in my humble opinion it looks very good. It is, as stated by Colin May, a clean, distinct design with a relevant symbolism (at least as far as I understand it) of the essence of Shorinjikempo (in fact, I thought the "palm tree leaves-symbol" posted earlier was good too, although it was of course completely different).

One interesting thing is the absence of any Japanese text symbols (at least any that I have ever seen), I wonder if that is a conscious decision in order to make it even more appealing to potential members outside of Japan? Not that I think that any Japanese letters or symbols on it would scare anyone away, it just made me wonder.

Also - and this might just be me - I find it very traditional and, in want of a better metaphor, kind of "samurai-like". Not traditional as in stagnant or old-fashioned but just…I don't really know, kind of distinguished and historical.

[tb055]

I'm afraid to say it, but it's terrible. I would have rather had the spinning 'palm tree' :(

[Tripitaka of AA]

One thing is the use of the entwined circles (ovals) within the word Shorinji Kempo. This has an interesting linguistic reference too as in certain romanisation methods you could see that written as "Shourinji" or even "Shoorinji", as the "o" is meant to be a long sound (as in "horse" or maybe "toast", but not "pot" or "rot").

Uebayashi-san and Duncan Sensei have my respect and admiration for their response and the high quality of work on the Website. The WSKO site is just so much better than so many other sites. Uebayashi-san deserves much praise for the high standards she shows.

Anders, yes, the "guys" term would normally indicate a group of men, but it has softened its use in recent years and can be used as an informal reference to a mixed-sex group (that would be a group of men and women, not a group of hermaphrodites :eek: ).

[David Dunn]

Like 'toast'? Only if you've lived in Yarkshire for too long :)

[jonboy]

I'm afraid to say it, but it's terrible. I would have rather had the spinning 'palm tree' Couldn't have phrased it better myself.

[satsukikorin]

Can we have some reasons, Jon and Ross? At least someone earlier commented that it looks like a couple of zeros.

C'mon now, specifics are good...

[jonboy]

Can we have some reasons, Jon Quite simply, I want something that says 'Shorinji Kempo' to me. This doesn't.

And it's just not pleasant on the eye - bad use of colour.

[Omicron]

I like it! I think it's pretty tasteful, and is much less commercialized than I had feared. I definitely look forward to wearing it on my gi knowing that all kenshi worldwide will be doing the same.

[MagicElvisaj]

I breifly saw one of the new Dogi's as I was leaving the Hombu on Sunday and I have to say the new logo looked good on it. I did not get a chance to take a picture of it though. I have a class tonight and there is a chance we will have to the new patch. If we do I'll get a picture of it.

Aaron

[dax]

I am curious as to how we will differentiate branch masters, godan and above, etc. if the colors of the logo are not changed based on specific levels of SK?

[Ade]

I have heard, please God no don't let it be true, that everyone will wear different coloured sleeve tapes denoting Nationality and rank/position.
If so I'm going to get my old boy scouts uniform out and put my fire-lighting and underwater knife fighting merit badges on there as well, but the quandry is where to put my woggle?

[erikboman]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a sleeve tape?

/ Erik :)

[Tripitaka of AA]

Originally posted in another forum by MagicElvisAJ (Aaron)
I am doing the Shikoku 88 temple pilgrimage and the the two circle thing appears at some of the temples so I take it that it is an already established symbol.


That's an interesting point Aaron. Does anyone have any info about this "old" symbol? DOes it have a name? I would assume that as part of future Howa it will be necessary to explain this image...

[MagicElvisaj]

The new logo is called ƒ\?[ƒGƒ“?@(Souen). I have tried looking it up on the web but have failed find it under that name. It may be a custom name. But I am not sure. Next time I am at a temple and come across the linked rings I'll get a picture.
Aaron

[satsukikorin]

I'm guessing that's ‘o‰~ or ‘oŠÛ in kanji, which would have the crazy, off-the-wall meaning of ... a pair of circles. Wow, fancy that.

[Mäki-Kuutti Vesa]

Greetings to the double-circle fans.

This is the sixth 6th) time the logo on my dogi is chancing
If you are interrested, I put pictures of all of them
on mu homepage about manji. It is unfortunately in Finnish but
understandable.
(http://personal.inet.fi/koti/vesa.maki-kuutti/docs/manji.htm)
Manji 1978 green was for kyu.
Manji 1980 Black for Dan. Text country
Manji 1982 we get the French Lilly around. Text Branch
Manji 1984 and then the outer circle Text country and Branch
Manji 1992 Ken and the colours Text Branch and Country
Manji 2000 Ken norms of size.

Some one asked about the sleeve badges: Coach, Branch Master and
Assistant etc. have had these for many years.
You can see the pictures on this page:
http://wsko.econ-net.or.jp/sale/

I have not been so happy about these logo changes during the years,
we always lost a few kenshi with these changes, beacause people feel that the tradition of Shorinji Kempo is also seen by the signs it uses.

Also the Branches and the kenshi have always had to put some extra money in these things.

And Finally about the manji. The colour effect is too much black, it
looks like there is something dark in the background and the circles
in the middle on red basis look quite feminine, and soft. The back and the middle are arquing each other - where is the harmony-.

The black and white circles remind me first of rings of marriage or
"Lord of the Rings", why not. The second association of the middle is due to two eggs. This leads to an old Finnish myth of how the earth was born. A big bird called "Sotka" flew in the darkness
and laid a white egg that became the sun and a black egg that became the earth...

The problem with these logo:s is that all people and all nations have their own associations to any visual symbols. We have to remake
the new manji with positive associations in kenshi and in the society around us. That will again take years of work.

Conservatively Onegaishimashu.

[David Dunn]

Well, we got a mention in the national press for this:
http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/12/wbul12.xml#4

[satsukikorin]

Jesus Christ! Who wrote that article? A kenshi? That's one of the most succinct and accurate characterizations* of us that I've ever read. Brilliant.


*That's "characterisations" for you Brits. :D

[David Dunn]

Not sure Colin, it isn't attributed.

Let me assume the grammar pedant mantle. The spellings with 'z' and 's' are both correct UK English usage. I know this because academic journals have a house-style, and will favour one or the other.

[chizikunbo]

I think the WSKO should have kept the manji but not going to get that started in this thread :)

[Ade]

Originally posted by David Dunn
...Let me assume the grammar pedant mantle. The spellings with 'z' and 's' are both correct UK English usage. I know this because academic journals have a house-style, and will favour one or the other...

We're not missing kehoe, don't fill his shoes!

As for the manji being acceptable as our symbol, ask Prince Harry what he thinks about that!

Ade

[Ewok]

Originally posted by Ade
We're not missing kehoe, don't fill his shoes!

As for the manji being acceptable as our symbol, ask Prince Harry what he thinks about that!

Ade

The difference being that he was wearing a swatstika, on a red armband, wearing a brown military style uniform with WWII german badges at a fancy dress party, and we wear a manji, the same symbol found on temples and shirnes the world over that are hundreds and sometimes over a thousand years old.

[chizikunbo]

Originally posted by Ewok
The difference being that he was wearing a swatstika, on a red armband, wearing a brown military style uniform with WWII german badges at a fancy dress party, and we wear a manji, the same symbol found on temples and shirnes the world over that are hundreds and sometimes over a thousand years old.

hmmm sounds exact to me...

[Ade]

Just in case you missed it you, and your blinkered ilk, appear to have been overtaken by a recent event:


Originally posted by Ade
Direct quote from Matthew White's website to whom I am eternally indebted.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm

"Second World War (1937-45): 55, 000, 000 Total Dead:

It's the most intensively studied event of the 20th Century, so the margin of error is not quite a wide here as for most of the other wars and oppressions on this page. Most historians agree that the death toll was about 50 million (including wartime atrocities). If you don't believe me, here's just a sampling of the books I have on hand:
Haywood: Atlas of World History (1997): 50M
Keegan, J., The Second World War (1989): 50M
Messenger, The Chronological Atlas of World War Two (1989): 50M
The Times Concise Atlas of World History (1988): 50M
J.M. Roberts, Twentieth Century (1999): >50M
Urlanis: 50M
Soldiers: 22.0M
Civilians
In camps, from Fascist terror: 12.0M
From hostilites, blockade, epidemics, hunger: 14.5M
From bombing: 1.5M
Dictionary of Military History (1994): 41M
Wallechinsky: 40-55M
Kinder, The Anchor Atlas of World History (1978): 55M
Hammond: 55M
Guiness World Records: 56.4M [http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/index.asp?id=46252]
Sivard, Ruth Leger, World Military and Social Expenditures 1986 (11th ed.): 38,351,000 (1939-45), not incl. 1.8M in Sino-Japanese War (1937-41)
Brzezinski:
Military: 19M
Civilians, "actual byproduct of hostilities": 20M
Civilians, Sino-Japanese War: 15M
Hitler's murders: 17M
TOTAL: 71M
Rummel:
European War Dead (1939-45): 28,736,000
Sino-Japanese War Dead (1937-45): 7,140,000
War-related Democides
Hitler: 20,946,000
Stalin: 13,053,000
Japanese: 5,964,000
Chinese Nationalist: 5,907,000
Allied Bombing: 796,000
Croatian: 655,000
Tito: 600,000
Romanian domestic democide: 484,000
Chinese Communist: 250,000
Hungarian democide in Yugoslavia: 78,000
[TOTAL: 48,733,000]
[TOTAL (1937-45): 84,609,000]
AVERAGE
The MEDIAN of these estimates is 50M.
If we add up the country-by-country medians (of total death tolls) we get:
LEVEL 1: 47.35M
USSR: 20.0M
China: 10.45M
Poland: 5.8M
Germany: 5.5M
India: 2.15M
Japan: 1.9M
Yugoslavia: 1.55M
LEVEL 2: ca. 3.8M
LEVEL 3: ca. 0.25M
TOTAL: 51.4M
The country-by-country medians for military personnel killed in the war are:
USSR: 10.0M
Germany: 3.5M
China: 2.05M
Japan: 1.5M
USA: 0.4M
Romania: 0.3M
Yugoslavia: 0.3M
UK: 0.28M
Italy: 0.23M
France: 0.21M
Hungary: 0.14M
Poland: 0.125M
TOTAL: 19.0M

Who to Blame:

Most history books break their WW2 numbers down according to whether the dead are military or civilian and which country they came from. Since I've done that elsewhere, let's try to break it down by guilt. Here are various estimates by various experts of the number of superfluous, non-military deaths during the Second World War.
Hitler:
Extermination of the Jews:
Reitlinger, Gerald, The Final Solution (1953): between 4,194,200 and 4,851,200 (this number is accepted by Kinder, The Anchor Atlas of World History (1978))
Brzezinski: 5,000,000
Chirot: 5,100,000
3,000,000 in death camps.
1,300,000 massacred.
800,000 by dis./maln. in ghettos
Rummel: 5,291,000
Grenville: 5-6M
Davies, Europe A History (1998): 5,571,300 (puts the minimum at 4,871,000 and the maximum at 6,271,500.)
MEDIAN: ca. 5.6M
Nuremberg indictment: 5,700,000 (accepted by Britannica)
Gutman, Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1990): 5,596,029 to 5,860,129
P. Johnson: 5,800,000
Wallechinsky: "nearly" 6,000,000
Urlanis: 6M
Individual Camps etc.
Auschwitz
Babi Yar
Belzec
Chelmno
Majdanek
Mauthausen
Sobibor
Treblinka
Soviet Prisoners of War killed:
Urlanis: 3,912,000
12 March 1995 Times-Picayune: nearly 3.5M
Our Times: 3,300,000
Rummel: 3,100,000
MEDIAN: 3.0-3.1M
Mazower, Dark Continent: 3M
Harper Collins Atlas of the Second World War: 3,000,000
Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (1960): 2,000,000 dead and 1,000,000 never accounted for, presumed dead.
Britannica: 2,600,000
Roma (Gypsies):
Hammond: 250,000.
Rummel: 258,000.
Mazower, Dark Continent: 200,000-500,000.
Porter: 500,000
Brzezinski: 800,000
Ian Hancock, "Responses to the Romani Holocaust" in Is the Holocaust Unique? (A. Rosenbaum, ed.) cites these:
US Holocaust Memorial Museum: 250,000
"several published estimates": >1,000,000
Pauwels and Bergier: 750,000
Financial Times (London): 500-750,000 in death camps and another million shot outside.
Homosexuals:
Chirot: 10-15,000
Rummel: 220,000
Euthanasia of Handicapped:
Hugh G. Gallagher: 275,000, citing Breggin (in Century of Genocide, Samuel Totten, ed., (1997))
Johnson: 70,000 insane and incurable Germans k.
US Holocaust Memorial Museum, Historical Atlas of the Holocaust: 70,000 k.in initial phase, 1939-41. 275,000 total k, acc. to Nuremburg Tribunal.
Air Raids
Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997): "an estimated 500,000 Soviet citizens died from German bomb attacks."
Belgrade
London
Stalingrad
Victims of Wehrmacht:
Acc2 historical exhibit curated by Hannes Heer: The common soldiers of the Wehrmacht murdered 1.5M Jews, 3.3M POWs + 5-7M non-Jewish civilians (17 May 1995 Agence France Presse; 22 Feb. 1997 AP)
General political prisoners:
Mark Mazower, Dark Continent: Europe's Twentieth Century (1998): over one million died in concentration camps, not counting those deliberately targeted for extermination.
Rosenburg, The Haunted Land: 26,000 political death sentences passed by German courts.
HITLER TOTAL:
Courtois: 25,000,000
Rummel: 20,946,000 democides
Brzezinski: 17,000,000
Urlanis: 15-16,000,000 (11-12M civilians + 3.9M POWs)
MEDIAN: ca. 15.5M
Our Times: 13,000,000 (6M Jews + 7M others)
Compton's: 12,000,000
Grenville: 10,000,000, including 2M children.
NOTE: These numbers only include outright murders, but keep in mind that some 18M civilians and 17M soldiers died in the European War. That's 35,000,000 deaths which can probably be blamed on Hitler to one extent or another."

In other words, out of a total of 55 million in total killed, at least 35 mllion people were murdered in cold calculation by an empire that used the swastika as it's symbol...

What it used to be is not what it is now.

Or perhaps the 55 million dead and countless more that suffered are wrong and you, with no relevant experience, are right.

So go now and tell hombu that all their deliberations are wrong, and that you are right.

Idiot.

Ade

[chizikunbo]

Idiot

hmmph, I have the right to an opinion no???

that does not sound like being very courteous to fellow e-budo members to me:p

[Ade]

You are either being deliberately obtuse or you are stupid.
Whilst I will defend to the death your right to have an opinion I don't have to agree with it.
What the symbol in question used to mean has no relevance now.
It has been overtaken by recent events.
Get over it.

[Anders Pettersson]

OK, let get back on discussing the new logo, not the old.

/Anders

[Tripitaka of AA]

Have you all seen Aaron's latest pictures on the Asian Martial Arts forum? See here (http://asianmartialart.proboards17.com/index.cgi?board=ShorinjiKempo&num=1105233640&action=display&start=0).

Aaron has done some intrepid temple visits (as part of the famous "Shikoku 88 temples" pilgrimage) where he noticed the paired rings as a symbol used to decorate the temple. He has pics.

[luar]

Looks like the Prince Harry incident has ony reinforced the idea that we needed a new logo.

It also puts extra pressure for me to redesign our web site and I don't know when I am going to find the time.

[zasshu]

“we have decided to establish the new unified mark and logo that express the established self and sympathy toward others” –Web
_____________________________________________________________________
“Again (for, like, the fourth time), I liked the old manji. But I think it's been clearly established that "I like it" is not a good enough reason to keep it. It offends and even frightens some people?\enough people that it does not advance our cause. All this rationalization ("Yeah, but it SHOULDN'T offend them!") is self-centered and gets us nowhere. It is our responsibility to meet people halfway. The manji is obviously a big part of our history, and we can introduce and explain and explore it AFTER we have secured the confidence of our audience. It's a sure bet that the topic will come up sooner or later in every kenshi's studies.” -satsukikorin
_____________________________________________________________________

We have to remake
the new manji with positive associations in kenshi and in the society around us. That will again take years of work.- Vesa Mäki-Kuutti


First, I have always thought Shoringi was too cool for words, alas there was only jujitsu at the rec center.
Second, the Hombu’s actions and their sensitivity are a very nice gesture. Weather commercial or not. It takes a very unique group personality to make such a drastic change over such a thing as a logo. In my opinion very few people would be offended or frightened by that symbol. The sign of the enemy on the other hand seems to be gaining in popularity, i.e. Prince Harry.
Thirdly,(here is where I get in trouble) there are far too many holocaust Jews out there who choose to have no other affiliation to their faith beyond the holocaust. They are usually non religious and generally uneducated about their faith. But give them a whiff of anti-Semitism (real or imagined) and they self-righteously crap their pants with indignation. Prince Harry doesn’t need to go to Auschwitz, weather he is or isn’t a Jew hater, I done care. He is not an elected official, nor does he have a business I can avoid, so the hell with it. Speaking as an observant Jew many of my fellows need to get a life and worry about themselves.
Finally, there was a kosher place in Los Angeles called “Shalom Hunan” on the ceiling was an image of a dragon and a phoenix fighting over the pearl of wisdom, surrounded by manji ! I guess no one ever looked up.

[luar]

Originally posted by zasshu

Thirdly,(here is where I get in trouble) there are far too many holocaust Jews out there who choose to have no other affiliation to their faith beyond the holocaust. They are usually non religious and generally uneducated about their faith. But give them a whiff of anti-Semitism (real or imagined) and they self-righteously crap their pants with indignation. Prince Harry doesn’t need to go to Auschwitz, weather he is or isn’t a Jew hater, I done care. He is not an elected official, nor does he have a business I can avoid, so the hell with it. Speaking as an observant Jew many of my fellows need to get a life and worry about themselves.
Finally, there was a kosher place in Los Angeles called “Shalom Hunan” on the ceiling was an image of a dragon and a phoenix fighting over the pearl of wisdom, surrounded by manji ! I guess no one ever looked up.

As a sidenote, we have many Jews in our branch who are obviously not offfended by this. In addition, I know several superb senseis who are Jewish and obviously not offended by this. Nevertheless, this is not about them and what they want. This is more about what is good for this art if we wish to continue to grow.

[George Kohler]

I kind of like the new logo.

[zasshu]

Bravo, It is a nice logo. Sadly the evil done left a stain on an innocent image.
Be well.

[RichD]

I suspect it may be a reference to the Mandorla: an old symbol and has been used in both Christian and Buddhist religions (and like the manji probably has older roots). As other people suspected it does in fact allude to opposites (Heaven/Earth etc). The place within the circles also has a special meaning - I think it is where "we" are.

Early christians used this and other symbols - such as the fish to indicate their religion in a code the Romans could not understand.
Incidentally, the fish symbol is a pictorial acronym meaning (when tranlsated form the greek) something like "Jesus Christ God's sons saviour" which many people still put on the back of their cars today.

Sometimes in religious art you may see significant people framed in the intersection of the circles. Certainly anyone who has ever been into a church will have likely seen Jesus within the circle intersections - an almond shape (hence the word mandorla which is the Italian for almond), which incidentally can also represent "the feminine" - read Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code for lots of pagan/christian symbology/catholic conspiracy theory stuff related to this particularly phrase - and a cracking story ;)

I have no idea if the circles have any link to a spinning manji. Doubtless there is lots of info on the web about this, but here's one I just found:
http://www.kyrie.com/symbols/mandorla.htm

[chizikunbo]

Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
Have you all seen Aaron's latest pictures on the Asian Martial Arts forum? See here (http://asianmartialart.proboards17.com/index.cgi?board=ShorinjiKempo&num=1105233640&action=display&start=0).

Aaron has done some intrepid temple visits (as part of the famous "Shikoku 88 temples" pilgrimage) where he noticed the paired rings as a symbol used to decorate the temple. He has pics.
Saw it, its not bad, I like it, but in Hung Fa Yi there is no hope of it being changed. Good thing its not a huge widespread ma...yet...