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Timothy.G.B.
13th January 2005, 20:22
Has anyone out there seen video footage of different schools doing Kakie (i.e., hooking hands etc.). I know of a white crane practitioner who does a form of kakie:

http://www.fujianbaihe.com/fujianbaihe/jiandan1_pushhands/index.html

and I am also interested in karate people (regardless of style) doing kakie on the net.

Thanks in advance!
Tim Black
Kokusai Shinjinbukan

Timothy.G.B.
15th January 2005, 21:46
It seems as though no one has seen anyone in karate doing this kind of kakie on video on the web.

So, maybe I can ask if anyone out there actually does kakie that looks anything like the "push hands" that is posted on the above link?

If you do kakie and it looks like the stuff on the white crane link, I would be curious to know: who did you learn it from and who did they learn it from? If you do kakie training in your karate and it looks totally/slightly different from the white crane stuff, what are the biggest differences?

Best,
Tim Black
Kokusai Shinjinbukan

2groggy
16th January 2005, 02:35
Tim,

We don't do kakie often, but I'd say that it looks similar. We do both "circles" much like the push/parry on the video and also a "hills and valleys" - this really burns out the triceps.

After we tire everyone out, we start trying to slip in an attack such as a push to the shoulder, a joint lock, trapping the opponent's arm against his chest or something like that.

We also do a version with two hands where the objective is to trap both of the opponents arms under only one of your own for just long enough to slip in a light friendly smack. Is there a Japanese term for "bitch-slap"?:D

I'll check on the lineage if your interested. But it is definately Goju Ryu.

Troll Basher
16th January 2005, 11:59
Originally posted by 2groggy
Is there a Japanese term for "bitch-slap"?:D



Yes.... "beechu-srapu" ;)

dsomers
16th January 2005, 14:59
I found this footage a while ago :
http://www.burlingtonkarateandkobudo.ca/kakie.htm

tsurashi shondo
17th January 2005, 03:16
Originally posted by dsomers
I found this footage a while ago :
http://www.burlingtonkarateandkobudo.ca/kakie.htm

I know nothing about Goju-ryu or the purpose of kakie in that system, but I found that clip interesting in so much as the drill looked very rigid and "muscular" as opposed to the relaxed flow and sensitivity oriented push-hands work I've seen in CMA. Can anyone comment on whether that is the norm in Goju for that kind of exercise? What are the aims of that drill in Goju?

CEB
17th January 2005, 04:10
Can be a very muscular. Not always but it often is. Strength matters and strength training in conjunction with karate training is an effecient use of time.

Kakie should not be rigid. Savoy can afford to be rigid in the clip because he is a pretty strong guy. When you are old and weak like me you need to flow.

In the basic pushing kakie you push in the direction of the strength of Sanchin Dachi which is pretty much a straight line that passes through both feet. You push and recieve with your legs also, which should be flexed, not just with your arms. If your arms get tired and/or you are paired up with some really big and strong guy like David then you push with an assisting back hand that is in front of your solar pelxus (else you don't go anywhere). It is good to work with someone stronger than you because it teaches you that you can not be rigid and makes for a good workout.

There are other types of goju kakie also. This a basic pushing one.

Other ones include a push and parry one that was mentioned and an up and down hook and pull one where you push between the kake and ura kake uke pulling positions. I can't describe this stuff in words at all.

These exercises are done with one and two hands. And we also do kakie kumite working waza off from the exercise.

What Martin works is closer to Goju Kakie than what I have done with the Taiji and Wing Tsun folks but it is still different. IMO principle goals look to be the same but the kihon is different.

The differences begin with the feet and work up to Dan Tien.

Disclaimer Warning: I'm just an old judo player.

GojuMaster
17th January 2005, 04:15
"Rigid" and "muscular" should, according to my teachers, be only the first level of the training, which should eventually cover many areas:

-Strengthening the body
-Training the root
-Training the waist
-Training for pushes and throws
-Training footwork
-Training for entering and applying Chin-na and anti-Chin-na

Best Regards,

Russ Smith



Originally posted by tsurashi shondo
I know nothing about Goju-ryu or the purpose of kakie in that system, but I found that clip interesting in so much as the drill looked very rigid and "muscular" as opposed to the relaxed flow and sensitivity oriented push-hands work I've seen in CMA. Can anyone comment on whether that is the norm in Goju for that kind of exercise? What are the aims of that drill in Goju?

CEB
17th January 2005, 04:27
PS - The biggest muscle in your body is your butt! You gotta use it. You aint got a thing if it aint got no swing. :laugh:

tsurashi shondo
17th January 2005, 06:10
Originally posted by CEB
PS - The biggest muscle in your body is your butt! You gotta use it. You aint got a thing if it aint got no swing. :laugh:

Funny but true. And so frequently overlooked. Swing/Rhythm is key to maintaining fluidity and evasiveness.
Ed and Russ, great responses. I've been working on this kind of training lately and finding this thread was a treat. I was unaware of this training in Okinawan styles. Fascinating to see common principles interpreted through the "style window" of another art.
Would this kind of training be incorporated into the tanren( I hope I have that right) part of the system ?
At what level of training is this taught?

Timothy.G.B.
17th January 2005, 18:54
Doug:

Thanks so much for the link. The kakie demonstrated looks very much like the Goju Kakie that I have seen elsewhere. In the Okinawan Karate Video Series with Senaha Sensei's Ryusokai, their kakie looks very similar.

I am amazed at the similiarities between the goju kakie and the white crane. You always hear about the connection between Okinawan karate and Chinese styles, but I always find it more interesting when you can see the similiarities first hand.

Most of the kakie that I am trying to learn is definitely in the less rigid/muscular and more "fluid" category. The hips play a much bigger role as well.

Best,
Tim Black
Kokusai Shinjinbukan

dsomers
17th January 2005, 20:12
It's David , but no problem . Maybe , me & Russ could do some Kakie some time , & put it up on my new site . What do you say , Russ ?

Timothy.G.B.
17th January 2005, 20:25
Hi David:

I apologize about calling you Doug. I was replying and scrolled down to check your signature, but it only said dsomers and I took a guess and guessed wrong. I am sorry.

If you and Russ were to put something on your site that would be great!!

Let us all know if that gets worked out!

Best,
Tim Black
Kokusai Shinjinbukan

Timothy.G.B.
18th January 2005, 01:10
Just came across another video link to kakie:

http://www.iogkf.it/video/video.htm

Best,
Tim Black
Kokusai Shinjinbukan