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InvisibleFist
16th January 2005, 02:55
I've heard it mentioned in several places that several koryu schools such as the shinto-ryu have "ninjutsu" in their curriculum. What does the ninjutsu consit of in these schools? Silent walking? Rope climbing?

carl mcclafferty
16th January 2005, 15:57
I feel kind of weird calling you "invisiblefist" so whom ever you are, there was a prior discussion on this, it should be in the archives.

Carl McClafferty

nicojo
16th January 2005, 16:14
1. Real name in post.

2. Use the Search.

3. Bring a new question to the board.

4. Then maybe people will answer.

niten ninja
16th January 2005, 18:31
Where is it? I'm curious. A search didn't find anything.

InvisibleFist
16th January 2005, 23:57
I tried searching. All I found was a bunch of arguments about whether Bujinkan is koryu.

Ron Beaubien
17th January 2005, 12:33
Hello,


I've heard it mentioned in several places that several koryu schools such as the shinto-ryu have "ninjutsu" in their curriculum. What does the ninjutsu consit of in these schools? Silent walking? Rope climbing?

Several koryu schools do have "ninjutsu" for lack of a better word as you have said.

However, I think you will probably find that there are only a handful of people in each school that really know about these kinds of techniques and that those people aren't talking. Can't really blame them either. By their very definition, techniques of that nature are not usually given out easily.

The best you will probably get on a message board like this one is pure speculation, or worse yet, rumor.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

J. A. Crippen
19th January 2005, 17:10
Dave Lowry wrote of one instance in his book Persimmon Winds. It details a secret method of sneaking into a traditional Japanese house by urinating into the tracks of the outside sliding shutters. The pee lubricates the shutters and prevents squeaking. For details read his book.

Earl Hartman
19th January 2005, 19:44
Have I stumbled into the movie Groundhog Day or something? Haven't we done this to death in another thread somewhere?

A horny boyfriend peeing on the window runners so he can sneak into his girlfriend's room at night (the time-honored tradition of yobai, or "night-crawling") is not ninjutsu, dammit. Can we move on, please?

InvisibleFist
19th January 2005, 20:51
Not unless you're willing to post the location of the thread.

Earl Hartman
19th January 2005, 23:16
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=28131&highlight=Yagyu+and+Ninjutsu

shieldcaster
19th January 2005, 23:53
Man, I missed you guys over the holidays. It's good to be back into the swing of things:p

InvisibleFist
20th January 2005, 09:29
That thread is on a totally different issue: "Were the Yagyu clan ninjas?"

TSKSR has publically owned a Ninjutsu syllabus. I'm asking what that might mean.

poryu
20th January 2005, 10:27
Hi

Yagyu were not ninja and still are not.

A simple search in hisotry books and on the web you will soon discover that the Yagyu and associated schools were Kenjutsu schools. One of these specifically sword instructors to the Tokugawa shoguns. - Common knowledge.

As for the Katori shinto ryu.
A published or openly available ninjutsu curriculum doe snot exist. I also doubt that many members of the Ryuha today know of the actual contents of that section of the school, those that have studied that section and those that know of its contents will for the forseeable future ever consider exposing it. A breech of such ettiquette would never happen.These people have too much repsect for there Ryu and their soke/shihan.

I remember the one about the boy peeing on the door etc when visiting his girlfriend. My GF would murder me if I did that, guaranteed fact, you should have seen what happened to the dog whwn it puked on her bed yesterday.

InvisibleFist
21st January 2005, 01:02
Is it possible then that that syllabus does not exist? That TSKSR is just trying to add a little ooga-booga to their rep??

nicojo
21st January 2005, 01:48
You know that other forum you are on? Funny, we just had a warning about trolls from there.

I wouldn't think TSKSR needs any help on their rep. Seems like it usually goes the other way.

Earl Hartman
21st January 2005, 01:57
Whether it exists or not is really of no concern to anyone except members of the school. Besides, if it is really there, isn't the whole idea to not let anyone know, especially people who are not members of the school? It is for them to know and for you to find out. They have no obligation to let you know anything. But what better example of ninjutsu could there be than to plant in the minds of uninformed outsiders the gnawing suspicion that they have a secret ooga-booga curriculum that will mess you up from here to Hotzeplotz and back? Might make you think twice before messing with those dudes, huh?

My guess is that various techniques that some people might file under the category of "ninjutsu" exist in many schools.

Does this mean that they skulk around at night dressed in black throwing shuriken at each other, walking on water, flying through the air and making secret mudra hand signs and disappearng in puffs of smoke, only to miraculously reappear instantly hundreds of miles away?

Doubt it.

If they're real ninjas, you won't know. And by the time you do find out, it will be too late.

Look out! Behind you!!

Damn. I tried to warn him.

shieldcaster
21st January 2005, 02:54
For what it's worth, on Relnick's (yeah, I'm on a last name basis with the guy) website (one pager, by the way) it does openly list ninjutsu as one of the plethora topics that are covered in the TKSSR...err...TKSRK...umm...Katori Shinto-ryu curriculum. Not sure why you'd wanna keep it all a secret, then throw it down on the only (as far as I know) official website offering outsiders (potential insiders?) information.

It is public and open-source, so either they got it or they don't got it. I would imagine that the proof is in the pudding, as it were. But, that does beg the question: "Why would that bit of information be on the website?" TSKSR no doubt studies numerous aspects of classical Japanese warfare that are not listed on that site, so...?

I do not feel that anyone has the obligation to tell me anything, especially since I am not currently a member of said school. However, someone must've taken into account that the word which would garner the most gravity on that site (except for maybe 'KEPPAN'...wait, you need my blood?) would be that favorite of all bujutsu words: the infamous (that must mean more than famous) NINJUTSU.

Historian or not, once you get into this zaney twilight world of cloak and dagger ninja stuff--Booj or otherwise--you're gonna start hitting brick walls and gator pits. If you're really that curious, head on over to Narita (or Washington or Spain) and sign on up.

Also, I'd hardly guess that anyone in TSKSR would be so childish as to drop the ninja bomb on their website when there was no substantiation for it. An 'Intangible Cultural Treasure' (or however it goes) hardly needs to resort to such tactics.

Good luck in your search, though, Invis. The good news is that many....dear god, how many?....have come before you and would probably be willing to help you out.

fifthchamber
21st January 2005, 05:19
Hi All.
To be honest, none of this is about the TSKSR's search for students..It never has been. There is absolutely NO bonus for the school in "advertising" that it contains Ninjutsu. I would say that if anything, the reason that it is listed as one aspect of training is that it is the oldest school still extant in Japan and still teaching much of what it taught at its formation....It is ONE (And not the only) of the older schools that contains espionage techniques. What they are and how we would use them now are unknown to us...So that is a non issue. The Katori Shinto Ryu has more than enough students to carry on its succession, so THAT is a non issue, it lists "Ninjustu" as one of the sections that it teaches, but so what? Do you think that the people attracted by the "Ninjutsu" tag in modern times are the type that the school would want to teach? I doubt it honestly...
The ultimate answer I would guess is Otake Sensei's own and not ours to conjecture about...But when Draeger wrote "The Deity and the Sword" Ninjutsu was not well known anyway....And there is nothing in public about this aspect of their training. I wouldn't think that it is along the same lines as the Taijutsu taught in the various Ninpo kans...But who knows...What I DO know is that the school has NO NEED whatsoever to actively seek out students. It does not need that. That is not why they list it in the curriculum.
My own school lists several aspects of training in its websites...But there are several aspects not mentioned...Some are, some aren't..But the Shuriken Jutsu for instance isn't...And neither is the Kusarigama...Both of which could have been used to "sell" us in public. Bottom line is that my Sensei doesn't care enough about getting new students to list everything...Everyone who is there is there not because it is "cool" but because it's just Takenouchi Ryu...That, I would suggest is the same with the Katori Shinto Ryu.
Sorry for the tone...But this speculation gets us nowhere...And a lot of it is entirely out of place.
You want to know? Ask Mr. Relnick. I can't think of anyone else better placed to answer the questions you have.
Regards.

Mekugi
21st January 2005, 05:34
<golf clap>


Originally posted by Ron Beaubien
Hello,



Several koryu schools do have "ninjutsu" for lack of a better word as you have said.

However, I think you will probably find that there are only a handful of people in each school that really know about these kinds of techniques and that those people aren't talking. Can't really blame them either. By their very definition, techniques of that nature are not usually given out easily.

The best you will probably get on a message board like this one is pure speculation, or worse yet, rumor.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

Mekugi
21st January 2005, 05:42
Mr. Relnick's (that's Relnick Sensei to me) website is here:
http://tenshinsho-den-katori-shinto-ryu.org/ .

Incidentally, if you ever ask him about this you will get no respose as it is not anyone's business. Just like what Earl said.


Originally posted by shieldcaster
For what it's worth, on Relnick's (yeah, I'm on a last name basis with the guy) website (one pager, by the way) it does openly list ninjutsu as one of the plethora topics that are covered in the TKSSR...err...TKSRK...umm...Katori Shinto-ryu curriculum. Not sure why you'd wanna keep it all a secret, then throw it down on the only (as far as I know) official website offering outsiders (potential insiders?) information.

shieldcaster
21st January 2005, 06:03
Ben,

I never (at least in my opinion) insinuated that TSKSR was out to recruit students. Actually, I think I said they weren't:

(Me) "Also, I'd hardly guess that anyone in TSKSR would be so childish as to drop the ninja bomb on their website when there was no substantiation for it. An 'Intangible Cultural Treasure' (or however it goes) hardly needs to resort to such tactics."

And, these are not actually my questions, they're Invisible Fist's. I really do not care either way if TSKSR teaches ninjutsu, basket weaving jutsu or how-to-pick-up-trashy-women jutsu--alright, I might be down for that. But still, these are questions that were raised by Invisible Fist, and I was only attempting to cyphon them a bit for the sake of his getting hateful replies here. With only three (is it?) schools open to the public here on good ole planet earth, I would hardly disagree that TSKSR is not on the lookout for expansion.

I agree that most ol' skoolz probably have at least some form of espionage/clandestine activity training--at least in their densho. Who could hardly blame them for keeping it hush hush since the flashy days of Sho Kosugi and books and movies with 'twilight' in the title?

If I did care about this, I would contact Phil Relnick and beg for some info, or I would just call the guy I actually know who trains TSKSR--not that he'd know anything, but we could use the time to catch up all the same. Or hell, maybe I'd see what I could do to join the club...

To be honest, I f*ck*ing hate getting into these discussions about TSKSR--they always get so damn cumbersome. Otake Otake, talk to Otake. Draegar, Schmaegar. The only reason those guys were even broght into this is that they are the ONLY koryu [that I know of] that OPENLY 'advertises' (or at the very least even has the balls to freakin mention that they do ninjutsu--and they could be pissing on doors for all I care). I'm actually far more interested in their astronomy and meteorology than anything else, but not enough to pick up a phone or post in here only to get a 'read your Draegar'. I'm busy enough as it is with my own studies (which thus so far do not include any door-pissing espionage). Not to mention, those damn Draegar books are ubsurdly expensive.

Sorry if that sounded a bit on the acrid side, Ben. It was only intended to let anyone who may have misunderstood, that I am well aware that:
a) Otake-sensei is the final authority on anything involving TSKSR
b) Draegar's books, though theoratically informative, are over-priced (You'd think someone would do something about that, but what do I know? I would imagine that a warrior-scholar like him would perhaps not want his work so limited in disemanation by b*llsh*t peddlers trying to make more money.)
c) Relnick's website (the one-pager) does list ninjutsu (and astronomy)
d) this is an unfortunately sh*tty topic that should be far more academic (this=ninjutsu other than Booj or Booj related, AND/OR TSKSR conjecture when you are not a practitioner)
e) join the ranks of the, dare I say, weekly instigators of this type of topic, Invisible Fist
Finally,
f) (this is absolutely not directed at you Ben) on a website like this, I would argue that the whole reason for its existence is to help further the understanding of the various facets of martials arts training, philosophy and history, etc., so why the hell is there always an old crow in here who tells some newbie that they should read a four hundred dollar book or contact a soke to get some information? WTF? If I have missed the point, someone please clue me in here--and I'm on a limited budget.

PS-Yeah, thanks, Russ.

nicojo
21st January 2005, 06:32
I've had a few curious thoughts (but that's all they were--curiousities) on this sort of subject and reading through posts here and in other sources elsewhere basically made me consider that what wasn't being said by those who would know was as important as what was being said. 'Nuther words, if they aren't going to tell others, I won't bother asking. So I stopped wondering about that particular subject. Not to get all taoist...guess it works for me though. At least at this time in my studies.

fifthchamber
21st January 2005, 06:52
Hi Matt.
I know mate. Don't worry. We can all get flustered over this..And still never get close to the bottom line.
I realised a moment ago on a fourth read-through that you weren't saying that...But I had waited too long and the 15 minute window had shut...Sorry. I did not mean to snap either..But if you get into these discussions it only leads to madness..
I had a great one with Steve while he was here...It's long but much the same points were covered and neither party felt the answer had been answered...I guess it's just nature to be a cold hearted b'stard about these things..
As for the rest...Well..The problem is that SO often we get trolls or kids asking questions that have either already been answered (Or not) or just trying to poke us where it hurts..It's always hard to tell...The phrasing of the question helps I guess..But in this case it was looking like the guy just wanted to say his bit rather than ask.
I hate getting involved in these things....And there is no point.
My post was rash.
Other people had and have since said far better things about this than I have.
I apologise for the rushed reply.
Yours.

poryu
21st January 2005, 07:07
Originally posted by InvisibleFist
Is it possible then that that syllabus does not exist? That TSKSR is just trying to add a little ooga-booga to their rep??

I cant believe you just made a comment like this.

May I make a little suggestion to help you understand before you start posting comments like that again.

go away do some research like everyone else has done,

you know, like read some books, maybe surf the web a little, try and find the answers yourself with out posting crap like that.

If you took some time to read up a little on Koryu and martial arts school in general then I think you wouldnt need to ask question like the one I have quoted above.

Too many people are getting so lazy today. "I havent a clue what i am talking about so i will just run over to e-budo or some other forum and ask any old brain storming question. I dont need to see if there are any web sites that contain history of ryu or the origin or martial arts because I am so lazy every one will be bending over backwards to answer my crappy questions".

People out there, this forum has so many knowledgable people that frequent this forum who may even practise the schools you are asking about. Not one of them will help you unless they see you are actually doing something to help your self first. One of them is either crying right now or has choked on his soba laughing too much.

Do some homework and they will then be more than happy to help you


Originally posted by InvisibleFist
That TSKSR is just trying to add a little ooga-booga to their rep??



OOGa BOoga - how rude can you get

InvisibleFist
21st January 2005, 08:14
I am neither a kid nor a troll.

The TSKSR has PUBLICALLY STATED that their curriculum contains ninjutsu. What they mean by that is a reasonable, obvious, and inevitable question.

Asking questions is the purpose of a message board.

Responding that such secrets are far too holy for the eyes of the profane is pompous obfuscation. That is to say: "ooga booga. "

I've done extensive searches in the archive and came up snakeeyes.

The outright rudeness and snobbery (all in the name of ettiquette) apparent on this thread conforms to the stereotype of JMAers.

InvisibleFist
21st January 2005, 08:20
<i>(Me) "Also, I'd hardly guess that anyone in TSKSR would be so childish as to drop the ninja bomb on their website when there was no substantiation for it. An 'Intangible Cultural Treasure' (or however it goes) hardly needs to resort to such tactics."</i>

That may be so. I'm in the dark about what the motivation of Koryu is. There are other reasons than recruitment, to prop up ones rep.

Koryu appears to resemble a secret society. Secret Societies thrive on hinting that the upper echelons posess dark and powerful secrets.

The martial arts community has been arguing over the nature of "ninjutsu" for 25 years now. It seems that TSKSR could settle the matter once and for all, but won't.

Steve Delaney
21st January 2005, 08:58
Originally posted by InvisibleFist
Koryu appears to resemble a secret society. Secret Societies thrive on hinting that the upper echelons posess dark and powerful secrets.

The martial arts community has been arguing over the nature of "ninjutsu" for 25 years now. It seems that TSKSR could settle the matter once and for all, but won't.

Why should TSKSR do that? It's not it's place or responsibility to do so. Why should one ryuha just reveal it's gokui so that it matters and definitions about ninjutsu can be settled once and for all?

Since we aren't members of the ryuha, it's really none of our business. Just observe, appreciate and thank whichever deity that you have faith in that it is still in existance.

shieldcaster
21st January 2005, 11:26
Ben, no prob, mate. Speaking of being poked where it hurts, you should check out the funny JET blog thread...

Invis, you can aparently hold your own here...cough...cough...so please allow me to step away from this one and let you continue on. Douzo.

And, the particular art that I study--which is koryu--is nothing like a secret society. Hell we don't even have a handshake--or, at least, they haven't taught me one yet. And, most importantly, they teach you all of the ooga booga (as you so astutely put it) on the first day or so of training. It's up to you to piece it all together after that.

For the record, you are seriously misinformed about koryu and JMAers. There are far too many ryuha and far FAR too many kobudoka out here to be layin down judgements on people--which happens to include me, a person who was tryin to grease the gears for you here. You do need to do just a little bookwork before you go chargin in, ya know. It doesn't reflect positively on you when you act like a third grader--unless, of course, you are a second grader. Even if you do use words like 'pompous' and 'obfuscation' properly in the same sentence.

With regards to your present situation, I rescend my comment about old crows in here (though it still does happen unjustifyably at times). We are all more than willing to help those who are willing to help themselves.

Later.

Dan Harden
21st January 2005, 12:38
Mr. Ryan

Please be mindful that you are asking questions about things that are inherently kept closed and are individual to the various ryu's. It is simply the way of things. It comes from a time when guarding ones secrets meant life. Think of it this way. I've no wish to see our spec ops in Iraq teaching the Iraqi troops to fight using our methods. We may have to fight them again some day. I would much rather have us face them in their baggies running around with their rifles flailing all over like they do.
While it is not as relevant anymore, in Koryu perhaps people are just preserving a tradition as it was and helping to keep it alive today. I see no reason they should share that knowledge with all and sundry for the simple reason that they "asked."
Do you?

Below are some of your quotes. Please review your views as presented in the questions asked. They are quite telling.

For me, your words
"Recruitment", "Props, and reps", "Too holy for thow", "pompous", "ooga booga" and last outright "snobbery"; are not the things I have seen in Koryu. I have seen sharing, one-on-one teaching, much laughter..OK maybe to much laughter, and very nice down to earth people, and a brotherhood.
I am sad to hear that is not your experience. Take it in stride if you are frustrated in your search. Be nice! talk to people privately, get out and about and meet Koryu folk. But I warn you...
Your going to laugh allot and quite possibly make friends. You may even get your questions answered.

Cheers
Dan


Quotes
That may be so. I'm in the dark about what the motivation of Koryu is. There are other reasons than recruitment, to prop up ones rep.
Asking questions is the purpose of a message board.

Responding that such secrets are far too holy for the eyes of the profane is pompous obfuscation. That is to say: "ooga booga. "

I've done extensive searches in the archive and came up snakeeyes.

The outright rudeness and snobbery (all in the name of ettiquette) apparent on this thread conforms to the stereotype of JMAers.

Moriki
21st January 2005, 17:32
Originally posted by InvisibleFist
TSKSR has publically owned a Ninjutsu syllabus. I'm asking what that might mean.

I'm not sure of an actual syllabus existing in the TSKSR but when I visited Otake Sensei a few years ago, I was certinally impressed with his Deep knoweledge of Ninjutsu methods and techniques, actualy we talked for several hours on the subject. Maybe Ninjutsu is kept in the ryu as Kuden, as I`m not a member of the ryu I'm not sure, but what I do know is that Otake sensei sure knows a lot about the Ninjutsu side of things.


yours

Earl Hartman
21st January 2005, 17:43
Originally posted by InvisibleFist
Responding that such secrets are far too holy for the eyes of the profane is pompous obfuscation. That is to say: "ooga booga."

Ooga-booga it is then, Jack. Get used to it.

As Sam Spade said to Wilmer, "People lose teeth talking like that. If you want to stick around, you'll be polite."

A traditional ryu is a closed society. It owes nothing to outsiders, especially people who think that if they just say "Show me your secret stash" the ryu will go "OK".

The TSKSR website says that it teaches ninjutsu. Doesn't that answer your question then? Why do you think you have a right to know anything more than that and that anybody is obligated to tell you squat?

Most of the people who have responded to you on this thread are not members of TSKSR. We don't know anything about it. We can speculate about the ninjutsu curriculum of TSKSR until Hell freezes over, but it don't signify. The only people who know about it are members of TSKSR, and you can rest assured that other than perhaps saying yes, no or maybe if you ask them about the existence of ninjutsu in TSKSR, you aren't going to learn anything, especially if you accuse them of "ooga booga" when you don't instantly get what you want.

George Kohler
21st January 2005, 18:32
If you want to know about certain aspects of Katori Shinto-ryu and not wanting to join them, you will have to learn it from someone that has left the school. But, you will have to hurry, because he will receive the wrath of Marishiten, the "Goddess of the Pole Star."

InvisibleFist
22nd January 2005, 00:01
Originally posted by shieldcaster

Invis, you can aparently hold your own here...cough...cough...so please allow me to step away from this one and let you continue on. Douzo.

And, the particular art that I study--which is koryu--is nothing like a secret society. Hell we don't even have a handshake--or, at least, they haven't taught me one yet. And, most importantly, they teach you all of the ooga booga (as you so astutely put it) on the first day or so of training. It's up to you to piece it all together after that.


Later.

Matt:

Sorry if I offended you. You've been nothing but civil. And I probably was out of line by generalizing about JMAers in general. My apologies.

Your Koryu may in fact be nothing like a secret society, but from what I've seen, TSKSR seems to be (including a blood oath) .

For the record, no offence was meant either by the comparison to secret societies or by the phrase "ooga booga". I am in fact a memeber of a secret society (the Ordo Templi Orientis, formerly the rite of Memphis Mizraim). I'm trying to comprehend something that I don't quite understand in terms of something that I do.

InvisibleFist
22nd January 2005, 01:56
Originally posted by George Kohler
If you want to know about certain aspects of Katori Shinto-ryu and not wanting to join them, you will have to learn it from someone that has left the school. But, you will have to hurry, because he will receive the wrath of Marishiten, the "Goddess of the Pole Star."

I'm not sure if this is a joke or not.

Mekugi
22nd January 2005, 02:06
Nope. She'll kick your butt.


Originally posted by InvisibleFist
I'm not sure if this is a joke or not.

Steve Delaney
22nd January 2005, 07:07
No Joke.

Brian Owens
22nd January 2005, 07:42
Originally posted by InvisibleFist
I'm not sure if this is a joke or not.

It's not.

When one joins TSKSR part of the keppan says that you will follow the rules or the ryu, and if you violate them you will submit to the judgement of Marishiten.

As to what that means, well... that's kind of like asking what TSKSR's ninjutsu is.

Soulend
22nd January 2005, 09:55
Ahh, Marishiten. And you thought Rosie O'Donnell was frightening.

Mekugi
22nd January 2005, 10:04
Yawp. She makes Rosie look like June Cleaver.

"Ward, don't you think you were little hard on the Beaver last night?"


Originally posted by Soulend
Ahh, Marishiten. And you thought Rosie O'Donnell was frightening.

Brian Owens
22nd January 2005, 13:12
Originally posted by Mekugi
Yawp. She makes Rosie look like June Cleaver.

"Ward, don't you think you were little hard on the Beaver last night?"

"Gee, Wally; if Marishiten finds out we've been talking about this stuff, do you think we'll be grounded?"

"I dunno, Beeve. We'd better ask dad."

:D

Douglas Wylie
22nd January 2005, 13:24
I wouldnt mock the powers of the world.

Some ooga booga are legitimate and other ooga booga are make believe.

Unless you know the difference you might get booga-ed in your ooga!

nicojo
22nd January 2005, 14:28
Bringing it only slightly back to earth:
Zack,

Here's an article posted recently in the JSA forum about mudras in TSKSR. I had read it a year ago, but the recent posting made me think it may have a few things to do with your questions, namely esoteric teachings in koryu and the responsibilities and teachings of them.
Furyu link (http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/mudra.html)
One of my favorite lines from the article runs something like "giving a loaded handgun to a baby." You probably already know what mudras are; if you don't you will find out. Also the article discusses kiaii and so forth.

Here is a link (http://www.koryu.com/library/dlowry12.html) to Koryu.com's article by Dave Lowry about, among other things, Marishten and fox possession. Again, I put it here as a sort of resource by analogy: Sometimes I tell my own english students that if they can't find much research on their papers about a given topic, they may need to develop some fair analogies. Not that I think YSR or TSKSR teach ninjutsu of handwaving and POOF! Marishten appears; I don't have any way of knowing. But since this is advanced knowledge in the ryu that MR. Lowry is talking about, perhaps again some of the rights and responsibilities of learning ninjutsu--other advanced knowledge--are similar.


----
Well I hope that's not too much speculation or pompous obfuscation, but HTH anyways.

nicojo
22nd January 2005, 14:33
Mr. Sharples, Mr. Snowden,

I think in your posts you write that the author of Deity and the Sword is Don Draeger, but I see that Otake sensei is the only listed author. Did Draeger coauthor or help on the english translation or something?

And by the way, this four-hundred dollar "comic book" may be presented as a rather more affordable reprint sometime in the fairly near future for us koryu/hoplos neophytes who aren't grey enough to have an original copy. :D How do I know? Guess you could say a little ninja told me and that I really don't know/can't tell much more. But I'd be patient.

niten ninja
22nd January 2005, 16:15
The pole star and strategy... yeah you can see the link...

George Kohler
22nd January 2005, 16:26
Originally posted by nicojo
Mr. Sharples, Mr. Snowden,

I think in your posts you write that the author of Deity and the Sword is Don Draeger, but I see that Otake sensei is the only listed author. Did Draeger coauthor or help on the english translation or something?

Donn Draeger translated the books into English. At least that is what my books say.

CEB
22nd January 2005, 17:54
Originally posted by Douglas Wylie
...

Unless you know the difference you might get booga-ed in your ooga!

I wouldn't want that to happen. That don't sound good. :D

nicojo
22nd January 2005, 17:59
Donn Draeger translated the books into English. At least that is what my books say. OK, when I checked on the books at Amazon, Otake sensei was the only listed author, and when I saw the books a few weeks ago in a store I didn't notice Draeger's name. TY.

Brian Owens
23rd January 2005, 11:36
Originally posted by nicojo
OK, when I checked on the books at Amazon, Otake sensei was the only listed author, and when I saw the books a few weeks ago in a store I didn't notice Draeger's name. TY.

From the title page:

1977 by Risuke Otake

Translated into English by:
Donn Draeger ( in Japan)
Terue Shinozuka
Kyoichiro Nunokawa

glad2bhere
23rd January 2005, 18:37
Ah, this is about the ump-teenth string I have been a witness to where there is some kind of rough feelings between the idea of early traditional ("koryo"?) and late tradtiional ("gendai"?) and I, for one would like to know where the disconnect is. Ordinarily if people don't understand a term, well, I can understand this. What I am getting from this PARTICULAR disconnect is that somebody doesn't WANT to understand (or accept, maybe) an alternative line of thought. Ordinarily I wouldn't say too much about this but we practitioners of Korean arts have a kind of similar situation with people calling what they belong to a "kwan" when they have a very fuzzy idea of how a kwan works. Now if all of these vague comments are a matter of someone not understanding what a Koryo is would someone please come forward and be honest enough to say they don't know and ask someone who knows more than I do? On the other hand, if its a matter of "bad blood", may I say that all these back-handed comments get rather tedious for those of us who only come here to know more about other traditions. Its like being curious about the institution of Marriage, and constantly being exposed to couple who bicker, know what I mean? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

nicojo
23rd January 2005, 20:06
My rough feelings have nothing to do with ninjutsu as practiced way back when or today, or koryu/gendai or really anything apart from trollesque questions and comments in this thread and the "ninjutsu real or fake" thread he started in the ninpo forum, as well as a general lack of appreciation for the knowledge posted here or in other texts by those who have dedicated their lives to something for which he expects easy answers. Or, as some of us keep saying, the deliberate absence of such knowledge.

A more complete answer to your thoughts, Mr. Sims, would take a bit more time than I have now, and I'd rather let others speak for themselves.

Dan Harden
23rd January 2005, 20:49
Hi ya Bruce

Bickering??
Please bear in mind that unlike your comment about a bad marriage no one IS bickering much from within- only from without. The crux is usually the desire for some knowledge of either technique, or tradition and those who may be in a Koryu not being forth coming. It is all rather simple, and really rather silly. Much of what they want to know regarding tradition can be found elsewhere from multiple sources, and technique can only be learned from doing them exhaustively for years.
The various comments about snobbery, elitism and most recently the ooga boogas, are from sources that by and large speak for themselves.
The people I have met in Koryu are just plain folk of all types and backgrounds who share a common bond. That they mostly behave like family, keep things to themselves, and cherish the trust speaks for itself as well. And that makes them..........just good people. And you can find them everywhere, not just in Koryu, but in Gendai arts, and in your local chess team.

Perhaps holding the party line in the face of questioning, coupled with an unwillingness to answer to those outside the fold seems untowered, but from years of reading the questions and the way they are asked I have found myself growing increasingly understanding of why things are withheld.
At the end of the day it always pays to be nice. Just look at you and the way you comport yourself. You have no trouble because you are so nice. It doesn't matter what art we're in. Simple courtesy and good manners go a long way. There is so much less to regret and it increases the odds of finding answers to things you would like to know through relationships.

Cheers
Bud
Dan

InvisibleFist
23rd January 2005, 21:25
Lets just review what happened here.

1) The tktsr website announces that they teach "ninjutsu".

2) I ask what that means.

3) I am told that this is a big, big, secret and I am out of line for even asking.

4) I speculate that perhaps, since they cannot or will not produce the curriculum that it may not exist.

5) This offends people for some reason.

Honestly, I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't know much about koryu, and I don't practice Budo. I'm a practicioner of Chinese martial arts.

I can tell you right now that if I were to go into a forum for CMA and suggest that "You know, guys nobody's ever actually seen the Southern Shaolin Temple. Maybe its possible that it never existed...that its just a legend to give an origin to the Southern martial arts. " Nobody would call me a troll and threaten to knock my teeth out.

You guys are demonstrating terrible Mo Lum Yat Ga.

Steve Delaney
23rd January 2005, 22:23
Erm, ooga booga. :D

glad2bhere
23rd January 2005, 22:33
Thanks, Dan.

".....At the end of the day it always pays to be nice. Just look at you and the way you comport yourself. You have no trouble because you are so nice....."

Yeah, thats me, alright--- "Mr. Congeniality". I do just fine as long as I don't listen to the voices and never touch heavy or pointy things if I have missed my medication. :D

But I serious do thank you for commenting. Its hard for people on the outside of these things to know where actual differences stop and simple differences of opinion start-up. There was a guy named Kim who I tried to get more information about since I took his last name to be Korean. Couldn't figure out what a Korean was doing teaching Nin-jutsu. Gawd, what a s-storm THAT started!! Now I always check these things out.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Brian Owens
23rd January 2005, 23:23
Originally posted by InvisibleFist
...4) I speculate that perhaps, since they cannot or will not produce the curriculum that it may not exist.

5) This offends people for some reason.

...I were to go into a forum for CMA and suggest that "You know, guys nobody's ever actually seen the Southern Shaolin Temple. Maybe its possible that it never existed...that its just a legend to give an origin to the Southern martial arts. " Nobody would call me a troll and threaten to knock my teeth out.

The difference is that the Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto Ryu -- unlike the Southern Shaolin Temple -- still exists, has currently active students from around the world, has an unbroken lineage going back to its origins in the 15th century, is recognized by the Japanese government as an Intangible Cultural Asset, etc.

Furthermore, since the current master of the ryu has said that ninjutsu is a part of the curriculum, for you to say that maybe it doesn't exist is to say maybe Otake Sensei is a liar. That's a lot different than arguing about the fact or fiction of an old Chinese legend.

And for you to say that you've offended people "for some reason" says to me that you are either incredibly dense socially, or are being incredibly disengenuous.

You've been given the answers to your questions: yes, ninjutsu is part of the curriculum in TSKSR; no they don't tell outsiders exactly what that means; if you want to know more then maybe you should ask the only person who is authorized to say more, a fully licensed master teacher of the ryu.

El Guapo-san
23rd January 2005, 23:26
Originally posted by glad2bhere
Now if all of these vague comments are a matter of someone not understanding what a Koryo is would someone please come forward and be honest enough to say they don't know and ask someone who knows more than I do?

Isn't Koryo the North Korean national airline?

Heh heh heh, boo.

BTW, it does seem that ninjutsu is, well, fake. Yup, yessir, quite, quite fake. Zack, there's your dualistic, determined answer. On the other hand, a unitary answer would have a hard time being understood as to a line between some koryu and ninjutsu, were such a thing to exist. That is assuming you believe in a separate existence, which means that you were looking for a dualistic, and quite un-Japanese, answer in the first place. Non?

J. Vlach

BTW- For Sword & Diety fans there was a French edition recently.

nicojo
23rd January 2005, 23:34
There was a guy named Kim who I tried to get more information about since I took his last name to be Korean. Couldn't figure out what a Korean was doing teaching Nin-jutsu. Gawd, what a s-storm THAT started!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Man, I can imagine. Funniest thing I've read today.

Brian Owens
23rd January 2005, 23:45
Originally posted by nicojo
...And by the way, this four-hundred dollar "comic book" may be presented as a rather more affordable reprint sometime in the fairly near future for us koryu/hoplos neophytes who aren't grey enough to have an original copy.

One of the great "tragedies" of my life is that I had an original set. Nicely hard-bound in blue fabric, and with glossy, photo-covered dust jackets. Unfortunately they were water-damaged beyond recovery some years ago, and at the time -- when hard-bound sets were still available -- I didn't have the means to replace them.

I have a soft-cover set now, but they don't hold up as well.

Oh, and I've only got a few grey strands mixed with the brown; at least in what hair I still have. :(

Douglas Wylie
24th January 2005, 04:36
Originally posted by InvisibleFist
Lets just review what happened here.

1) The tktsr website announces that they teach "ninjutsu".

2) I ask what that means.

3) I am told that this is a big, big, secret and I am out of line for even asking.

4) I speculate that perhaps, since they cannot or will not produce the curriculum that it may not exist.

5) This offends people for some reason.



Have you considered that if they say x is true and you say x is not true it is the same as calling them a liar. Coupled with the fact that such things are "need to know only" and you dont "need to know" but insist on questioning anyway, can you see how you are irritating them.

It is not the job of anyone here to educate you, this is something I dont think you have considered fully. In fact, ANY information someone gives you is a bonus since the alternative is to spend time in lots of dojos in Japan to obtain the info for yourself.

There is, however, an extremely arrogant group of folks in the US who think that a few years in Japan makes them expert and have no problem talking down to those outside their group and about members of their own group when they are not around, this is unique to this particular group and their cohorts(every high ranked Japanese teacher that I have ever met in several different arts were very humble).

I think that elements of that group are antagonizing you, since all they have to do to keep a secret is not say anything, instead of telling you off. Kind of a grown up version of "Nah nannie boo boo".

I dont want to wrestle with you on this so I'll sit the rest of this one out.

I did enjoy the ooga booga, though. :D

InvisibleFist
24th January 2005, 05:55
Furthermore, since the current master of the ryu has said that ninjutsu is a part of the curriculum, for you to say that maybe it doesn't exist is to say maybe Otake Sensei is a liar. That's a lot different than arguing about the fact or fiction of an old Chinese legend.

OK, fair enough. However, nobody seems to have mcuh problem with saying that Hatsumi sensei or Takamatsu Sensei is a liar...and these are the ones that can actually demonstrate ninjutsu techniques.

Its also possible that although they are advertising their ninja-knowledge, it may exist, but be unimpressive...a few snippets of the "pissing on the doorway " variety.

Again, I'm out of the Koryu loop. Fraud however, is rampant in the Martial Arts...especially when the "N-word" pops up.

"Intangible Cultural Treasure" isn't worth much as far as truth telling goes. Korean Shamans are also Intangible cultural treasures, and they aren't above faking miracles with sleight of hand.

What seems to be going on here is that one group of martial artists is asserting priviledge over another. "Otake Sensei couldn't be lying because he's Otake Sensei."

The reason the question came up for me at all is that I was searching the archive to try and sort out the whole Bujinkan-legitmacy thing. I came on several posts that said essential that the Booj is fake, but that there is real ninjutsu and it is part of the TSKSR.

WHat sort of thing that might encompass, is a rather obvious question. I'm not asking to see anybody's secret stash. Is it combat techniques? Advice on camoflauge patterns? Mudrayoga? What do they mean when they say "Ninjutsu"?

The fact is nobody here seems to know. Instead of just saying so, or politely informing me that this info is secret, we get into all this confucian BS.

The fact is, I bet if I through some turn of events were to meet Otake sensei, and I --ignorant of proper Japanese Mo Duk, were to say, "Otake Sensei...whats up with that Ninjutsu?" He'd probably either say "sorry, son...that's confidential" or just out and out TELL ME... which is what appears to have happened when Brian Carpenter met him.

InvisibleFist
24th January 2005, 06:01
Originally posted by Moriki
I'm not sure of an actual syllabus existing in the TSKSR but when I visited Otake Sensei a few years ago, I was certinally impressed with his Deep knoweledge of Ninjutsu methods and techniques, actualy we talked for several hours on the subject. Maybe Ninjutsu is kept in the ryu as Kuden, as I`m not a member of the ryu I'm not sure, but what I do know is that Otake sensei sure knows a lot about the Ninjutsu side of things.


yours

Hi Brian!

Congratulations for being the only one to actually contribute real information to this thread.

It appears that you discussed Ninjutsu with the man itself. You should then be in a position to answer my question:

When the TSKSR talks about ninjutsu, what is it that they are talking about?

P.S. Are you on the yahoogroups Shinto list? They are currently discussing worldmate. Your contribution as a member would be welcome.

fifthchamber
24th January 2005, 06:54
Hi Zack...
I don't believe anyone here has attempted to say that they DO actually know...All you can see if you look back over the thread is various people (Myself included) being entirely forthcoming over the lack of information we have...No one here knows. The few people who DO know may or may not reply to you. But they are not and have never been contributors to your thread...Once again, if you WANT to know..ASK THEM.
As for the assertations of Ninjutsu being invented by the Ryuha to boost (What exactly?) attendance (????), sir...You are SO far away from understanding this issue that it would be a brave man who attempts to explain your errors to you.
The exact reason for Otake Sensei NOT lying is EXACTLY that...He IS Otake Sensei..Head instructor of the oldest Ryuha extant in Japan. He is there because of many things, one of them being his dedication to the school...And it would be precisely that dedication that would make his lying about this unthinkable.If you cannot understand what that means look back over this thread...And read a lot more.
Failing you doing that I cannot suggest anything else....
By all means...Come and talk to Otake Sensei..He is a very nice man from all I have seen and heard of him...Just be aware that your answers (And especially with the way that you have put them here) will NOT be answered to the depth you seem to expect...You want to get deeper? Join the school...Train your arse off...And then, maybe you will told something relevant to this discussion...But I know you can't even think of doing this...
Koryu is NOT what you seem to think it is.
Nor are those of us doing it.
Sorry not to have been any help.
Regards.

El Guapo-san
24th January 2005, 07:57
Originally posted by InvisibleFist
Fraud however, is rampant in the Martial Arts...especially when the "N-word" pops up.

WHat sort of thing that might encompass, is a rather obvious question. Is it combat techniques? Advice on camoflauge patterns? Mudrayoga? What do they mean when they say "Ninjutsu"? The fact is nobody here seems to know.

The fact is, I bet if I through some turn of events were to meet Otake sensei, and I --ignorant of proper Japanese Mo Duk, were to say, "Otake Sensei...whats up with that Ninjutsu?" He'd probably either say "sorry, son...that's confidential" or just out and out TELL ME....

Here's the point. In order to understand what some people are saying here, you have to understand a bit of Japanese culture. If you're discussing Shinto, well, go further in that direction. Look at the history, etc. etc. If you get further into shinto, you may find yamabushi to be, well, kind of out there, but well connected to Shingon. Look at some of the connections (I saw this on another thread, dunno if it's true or not) between religion/ philosophy and budo, like Ueshiba's Aikido and his shinto.

What is ninjutsu? Well, there are some books out there- Ninpiden, etc. Have a look at those, maybe translations if need be. Once you have an idea as to what ninjutsu, in whatever form it may have existed in the past, may have encompassed because of skills needed at that time, your question may be partially answered. Few people have the need to cross castle moats anymore and scale walls. If you want that kind of info, well, you can probably figure out how to do it if you spend enough time.

I can tell you that even if you are in the Bujinkan for quite some time that unless you have access to a high-ranking teachers (10 dan+) on a regular basis, you're not going to pick up the freely available small stuff. That can be a certain sword grip to generate power, generate resistance or set up the sword for a change in grip.

It's that small stuff which you seem to think makes it a different martial art- like aikido or kenpo. Be that as it may, the most contexts that I have heard it referred to in speak of it as something which comes at an advanced stage after other budo. (Hence my smarty comment about dualism versus unitary, opposition versus continuation.) Gyokushin being a kind of advanced Gyokko, ninjutsu (whatever that is) being in the advanced curriculum of Katori Shinto, i.e.- grammar class before conversation class, structure before breaking it up and using it.

One of the things taught in the Takamatsu-den is to use angles. Your question was very oblique, and anticipating an oblique answer. Inevitably you are going to be disappointed with the responses.

J. Vlach

InvisibleFist
24th January 2005, 08:14
Your question was very oblique, and anticipating an oblique answer. Inevitably you are going to be disappointed with the responses.

J. Vlach [/B]

My question was very specific. What is being referred to when they say the word "ninjutsu"? How would we know it when we saw it?

El Guapo-san
24th January 2005, 11:42
If you knew, then you would know. Otherwise, you would not. And you didn't read my answer, so therefore you probably would not. Or maybe you could spend some time with Ashida Kim or Yo Sato. I am sure that they would tell you if what you were seeing was or was not.

J. Vlach

cxt
24th January 2005, 15:29
Invisable fist


In reading thu the thread my impression is that NO answers are going to satisfy you.

I say this because my read of your posts so far indicates that you are far less interested in getting answers to your question than you are in "stirring the pot" so to speak.

Your questions all seem to stem from some sort of anger towards people who you claim have mistreated Hatsumi.

(they also are not "good" questions in that they are generally fallicious in nature, worded so as to preclude legit answers, or your asking the wrong guys--dude most folks here are spending their time getting the basic teachings down (which in case you don't know is a pretty big cirrculem (sp)) have not had the time to dig into areas beyond the main core.)

Don't practice ninjutsu and generally don't follow the threads.

But I would suggest that you take it up with those speciific folks and those specific issues.

You are not really going to get anywhere in building up Hatsumi by trying to tear down the Katori ryu.

(since most the things you imply about "lying" can ALSO be asked/implied about Hatsumi--and he has far less "back up" about his claims than does the katori ryu)

And yes, thats exactly how your coming across.

(Show me a "korean shaman" thats listed as an "cultural asset?")

More to the point, as others have mentioned.

Otake sensei is a decent guy (so I have heard) that seems willing to answer polite, respectful questions.

My advice is to ask him, maybe you will get your answers the seek.


Chris Thomas

Brian Owens
24th January 2005, 15:55
Originally posted by InvisibleFist
My question was very specific. What is being referred to when they say the word "ninjutsu"?

Otake Sensei has defined it, and Donn Draeger translated it, as "espionage art."


Originally posted by InvisibleFist
How would we know it when we saw it?

You probably wouldn't see it unless you were a student, and if you were a student you'd recognize it.

That's about as specific an answer as I think you're going to get anywhere on E-Budo, so can we please move on?

InvisibleFist
24th January 2005, 17:07
Originally posted by cxt
Invisable fist

I say this because my read of your posts so far indicates that you are far less interested in getting answers to your question than you are in "stirring the pot" so to speak.

I am in fact quite interested, or I wouldn't have asked. My impression is that the pot was stirred before I got here.

Its true that I'm probably enjoying this a little more than I should.




Your questions all seem to stem from some sort of anger towards people who you claim have mistreated Hatsumi.

(sigh) Once again...I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm an interested observer.

For the record, I entered this discussion convinced that Hatsumi was a fraud and that TSKSR was the real deal. I'm not going to say I've come full circle, but I'm seriously reconsidering, based on what I've learned in this discussion. (A group of people who take blood oaths and threaten each other with divine retribution....lets just say there's a credibility gap.)



(they also are not "good" questions in that they are generally fallicious in nature, worded so as to preclude legit answers,

OH COME ON!!!

My question is specific and to the point. You're just mad because you don't know the answer.



Clearly. However, Brian appears to have asked the man himself... I hope he'll shed some light on the issue.



You are not really going to get anywhere in building up Hatsumi by trying to tear down the Katori ryu.

I'm not trying to tear down the Katori ryu. I just don't think the Katori ryu walks on water. Human nature is the same everywhere...even enlightened tulkus can stretch the truth occasionally. And again, I wasn't making accusations...just idle speculation. Since Ninjutsu appears fake in one place (where it can actually be produced) its not to far a leap that their may be fraud where it cannot. Again NOT AN ACCUSATION. For all I know Otake Sensei is the reincarnation of Amida Buddha himself and posesses Kuji Kiri powers. Or maybe he's just a guy.







(Show me a "korean shaman" thats listed as an "cultural asset?")

http://starbulletin.com/2002/04/19/features/story1.html




My advice is to ask him, maybe you will get your answers the seek.

I did fire off an email to the TSKSR address of record on their site. So far nothing back.


Chris Thomas

InvisibleFist
24th January 2005, 17:15
You probably wouldn't see it unless you were a student, and if you were a student you'd recognize it.

That's only true if it contains Martial techniques. Its true that I couldn't tell a "ninja" sword kata from a hole in the ground.

However, my guess is that it's very specifically "sneaky" techniques...possibly stealth walking, low crawling, maybe assasination techniques...how to take out sentrys, use poisons.

Again it may be a few odds and ends of the "door pissing" variety.

From Brian's account, the much vauntted scerecy on the issue doesn't seem to exist. ..Otake Sensei is perfectly forthcoming on the issue.

I've spent a fair amount of time poking my nose into ooga-booga secret places. In my experience people who KNOW secrets, either answer your questions, or very politely tell you that they cannot answer them. They don't answer in pseudo fortune cookie riddles.

InvisibleFist
24th January 2005, 17:23
Here's the point. In order to understand what some people are saying here, you have to understand a bit of Japanese culture. If you're discussing Shinto, well, go further in that direction. Look at the history, etc. etc. If you get further into shinto, you may find yamabushi to be, well, kind of out there, but well connected to Shingon.

I rather thought that the ninja/ yamabushi connection had been discredited. The yamabushi are still alive and kicking aren't they?

InvisibleFist
24th January 2005, 17:30
Originally posted by Earl Hartman


As Sam Spade said to Wilmer, "People lose teeth talking like that. If you want to stick around, you'll be polite."



The cheaper the gunsel, the gaudier the patter.

cxt
24th January 2005, 17:32
Invisable Fist.

No, I am not "mad" I was speaking litterally.

And no, I have no problem saying that I don't the answer to some of what you ask.

I was speaking quite litterally, the way you posed some of the questions make its very hard to actually answer the question--as asked.

Case in point, you mentioned that a "korean shaman" can be listed as an intangabile culture asset.

As the SPECIFIC distinction of "intangable cultural assest" is one used SPECIFICALLY BY THE JAPANESE GOV--it would kinda hard to extend that to a "korean shamen"--whatever regard the said shaman may be held IN KOREA.

See, thats an apples and oranges kinda thing.

The japanese gov is in no position to issue an opinion to korean shaman--they are in position to issue opinion as to JAPANESE arts.

Big difference.

Again, your chacterzation of the katori folks as being "a group of people who take blood oaths and threaten each other with divine retrobution"

Is a mis-cast of the group--a purposeful one which merely supports my contention of your antipathy.

See, oaths, "blood" or otherwise are pretty common in the koryu.

So thats not something you can spin just at the katori guys.

Plus not sure that you can actually support the "threaten each other with divine retrobution"

Part of the oath--but "threaten each other" is simply not on point or accurate.

Another area that needs work, as far a fallicious questions and statements is "I just don't think the Katori walks on water"

See, NO-ONE SAID THAT IT DID--other than YOU.

So you make a statement attacking a position THAT NO-ONE SAID/HOLDS--(that for the folks that missed class that day)--IS A STATEMENT THAT FALLS INTO THE EFFECTIVE RANGE OF FALLICIOUS.

Make sense?


Chris Thomas

InvisibleFist
24th January 2005, 17:39
Originally posted by Brian Owens
[B]The difference is that the Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto Ryu -- unlike the Southern Shaolin Temple -- still exists, has currently active students from around the world, has an unbroken lineage going back to its origins in the 15th century, is recognized by the Japanese government as an Intangible Cultural Asset, etc.

Furthermore, since the current master of the ryu has said that ninjutsu is a part of the curriculum, for you to say that maybe it doesn't exist is to say maybe Otake Sensei is a liar. That's a lot different than arguing about the fact or fiction of an old Chinese legend.

Just read this again. First note the incredible ethnocentrism: Shaolin? "Old Chinese Legend" TKSKR?...STILL EXISTS.

I can guarantee you that Southern Shaolin has more students then TKSKR.

As a hung gar student I am only 13 generations away from Monk Gee Sim. By theorizing that he never existed, I am in effect calling MY sifu a liar.

I just don't think of it that way. Maybe its the Taoist in me....helps me keep my cool when strangers ask inconvienent questions.

Wasn't TSKSR founded by a GOD?

cxt
24th January 2005, 17:48
Invisable Fist

Uh, dude way to make my point FOR me.

Pretty common knowloge that the CURRENT incarnation of the Shaolin Temple is pretty much a gov sponsed tourist site.

The majority of the "monks" are contempory wushu trained guys and are not a direct contenuation of the monks that lived and trained there "back in the day."

What Brian said relates specifically to THIS point.

Says NOTHING about the "uber" founder of your specifc art.

But you insist on spinning it like he did.

Again attacking statements THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT MAKING.

Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy.

And then turn it into a dig at the katori ryu.

1-weird since you say above "I have no dog in this fight."

2-Not all that on point. Spin on the story of how the katori ryu was founded.

(shaky ground for a guy that claims his arts can be traced back to some guy that esacped the burning of the Shaolin temple--which in and of itself claims that ITS arts can be traced all the way back to Boddidarma himself)

So its clear that you can't even keep track of YOUR OWN STATEMENTS, let alone craft belivable ones.

Maybe it would be more accurate if you said--"I'd like to have have a dog in this fight--but the only one I have is to small, weak, and unskilled to take part."

Just a suggestion.

One Taoist to another.

Chris Thomas

InvisibleFist
24th January 2005, 18:04
Again, your chacterzation of the katori folks as being "a group of people who take blood oaths and threaten each other with divine retrobution"

Is a mis-cast of the group--a purposeful one which merely supports my contention of your antipathy.

See, oaths, "blood" or otherwise are pretty common in the koryu.

So thats not something you can spin just at the katori guys.

Plus not sure that you can actually support the "threaten each other with divine retrobution"

Part of the oath--but "threaten each other" is simply not on point or accurate.




See, NO-ONE SAID THAT IT DID--other than YOU.

So you make a statement attacking a position THAT NO-ONE SAID/HOLDS--(that for the folks that missed class that day)--IS A STATEMENT THAT FALLS INTO THE EFFECTIVE RANGE OF FALLICIOUS.

Make sense?


Okey doke. That point's yours.

Specifically, that would be the "straw man" fallacy.


Originally posted by cxt
[B]Invisable Fist.


[quote]
Case in point, you mentioned that a "korean shaman" can be listed as an intangabile culture asset.

As the SPECIFIC distinction of "intangable cultural assest" is one used SPECIFICALLY BY THE JAPANESE GOV--it would kinda hard to extend that to a "korean shamen"--whatever regard the said shaman may be held IN KOREA.

See, thats an apples and oranges kinda thing.

The japanese gov is in no position to issue an opinion to korean shaman--they are in position to issue opinion as to JAPANESE arts.

Big difference.

You're missing the point. Classification as a "national living treasure" has absolutely nothing to do with whether they tell the truth, or what they have in their curriculum. All it means is that :

1) It's cool
2) It's traditional
3) It has National character
4) We'd like to see more of it, and keep it from dying out.

Specifically that means that there may be some government money for them, and they occasionally get to have tea with the emperor.

We have intangible cultural assets here in the USA as well. They tend to be toothless Appalachian storytellers. You'd be hard pressed to say that they are unimeachable.

Incedentally, I believe that Hatsumi got some kind of pin from the Emperor as well.



Again, your chacterzation of the katori folks as being "a group of people who take blood oaths and threaten each other with divine retrobution"

Is a mis-cast of the group--a purposeful one which merely supports my contention of your antipathy.

I don't hate the koryu. I just think its weird. ..of course grown men dressing up like samurai and playing with swords is pretty weird from the jump. (I include my self in that category....I've been known to do a little Iai in my time)

Honestly, I'm a little suspicious of it...it smells a little right-wing to me. Blood oaths, secret rituals with sharp swords...reminds me of t he German duelling fraternities. Of course I COULD BE WRONG. (this is of course off the current topic, but if you could enlighten me I would be fascinated to listen.)

In general I think that the entire Martial Arts community could do with taking itself a little less seriously, and this thread is doing nothing to dissuade me of that notion.



Plus not sure that you can actually support the "threaten each other with divine retrobution"

Check back in the thread for the business about Marishiten. (My quoting muscle's getting tired.)

Earl Hartman
24th January 2005, 18:14
Originally posted by InvisibleFist
The cheaper the gunsel, the gaudier the patter.

That's "the cheaper the crook, the gaudier the patter".

cxt
24th January 2005, 18:41
Invisable Fist

Actually if your counting, its MULTIPLE points for me.

And none for you.

(congrats on paying attention that day in freshman logic class--since you admit you KNOW what a straw man is--why not take the next step and stop using building them???)

You even mis-represent the "intangable cultural asset" thing.

Your right, classification as "Intangable asset" does NOT automatically mean that they tell the truth.

(but to suggest that anyone is lying based upon NOTHING--well that ain't "proof" either)

Hey, lets see how much you remember from class--

What form of fallicious reasoning are you using to insist that "it does not mean that they tell the truth" just because they are listed as a "intangable asset?

Heres a hint--its actually TWO forms.

It does however give considerable weight to the status and perception of the ryu on the part of the Japanese Gov.

You can second guess them if you like--just not sure that Japanese Gov really cares as about YOUR opinion.

Pesky Japanese Gov, they seem to feel that just because they actually live in Japan, speak the languge like "natives" (yes thats a pun) have had several 100 YEARS to research,look things over, compare contrst, have access to detialed record going back 100's or years.

They just don't understand that a YOU QUESTION THERE CONCLUSIONS!!!

Darn them!!

Perhaps they are simply unaware of your concerns.

Sheesh.


More errors.

"dressing like samurai"

Actually the keikogi are pretty much the "work out cloths" of many classes.

(heck I saw a woodworker in a keikogi the last time I was in Japan--maybe I should have you call and strighten him out as to the "proper" way he should be dressed)

The samurai dressed in a number of outfits that no-one currently wears.

"Takes itself too seriously"

Well thanks dude, don't know were I would be if you had not shown up to help me out with my outlook.

The irony of a guy that sees it as his job to tell other folks when THEY are "taking themselves too seriously" seems to have escaped you??

Oh, and by the way, AGAIN, the oath in the katori ryu is specific in the mention of "divine retrobution."

Very different thing to suggest that they "threaten each OTHER."

For that you would have to show me that Otake or someone pretty far up in the food chain has been "threating" folks.

To make that stick you would have to find multiple people doing it AND establish their relationship with the ryu itself.

Good luck with that one.



Chris Thomas

Joshua Lerner
24th January 2005, 18:46
It's good to see that folks here have finally gotten tired of arguing about Katori Shinto ryu, and have advanced to the more refined level of arguing about arguing about Katori Shinto ryu.

Since this is such a recurring theme, might I suggest that the moderators create a special Koryu: History and Tradition sub-forum entitled "TSKSR Lineage Arguments and Idle Speculation By Non-TSKSR Members" to provide a safe, welcoming home for these fascinating and lengthy threads?

George Kohler
24th January 2005, 18:59
I believe this has gone long enough.