PDA

View Full Version : Motobu Choki



Troll Basher
29th January 2005, 10:54
Journal of Combative Sport, February 2000
Master Choki Motobu, 'A Real Fighter'
By Graham Noble
Text and images copyright Graham Noble © 1986, 2000. Annotations copyright Joseph Svinth © 2000. All rights reserved.
Ed. Note: This article first appeared in Fighting Arts International, and is reprinted by permission of Graham Noble. Noble says that while he has since collected more material on Motobu, to include a copy of a recently reprinted Watashi-no-karate-jutsu, "it is almost all in Japanese, so before I do any rewriting I need that translated. Hopefully computer programmes will sort that out in a few years." Some editorial annotation has therefore been added, and a couple of now outdated paragraphs relating to boxer Piston Horiguchi have been deleted. Readers with additional information are requested to contact the editor at jsvinth@ejmas.com.


Choki Motobu in Japan
Motobu was born in Shuri, the old capital of Okinawa, in 1871. He had considerable local fame in Okinawa as a fighter-strongman but it was only after he moved to Osaka in 1921 that he became known in Japanese martial art circles.
What brought Motobu to the attention of the Japanese was his victory over a western boxer in a kind of all-comers challenge match. In the earlier part of this century such bouts were occasionally held in Japan pitting western boxers against judo or jujutsu men. (Karate was unknown in Japan around this time.) [EN1] These were not "official" bouts for any sort of legitimate title, but something more like sideshow attractions. Boxing historians for example are fond of pointing out that, back in 1928 in Yokohama, top bantamweight Packy O'Gatty KO'd a Japanese jujutsu man named Shimakado in 14 seconds. That 14 seconds included the full count, by the way. E.J. Harrison also mentioned in passing a couple of boxing vs. judo shows in his book The Fighting Spirit of Japan, first published in 1913. Few of the fighters in these events were champions in their sports, but the shows did arouse interest in a certain section of the populace.
Anyway, this was the background to Motobu's victory that so delighted the people back in Okinawa when they heard about it. Soon after Motobu settled in Japan he went to watch a boxing versus judo show in Kyoto. A boxer taking part beat several judo men rather easily and then issued an open challenge. Moreover, the challenge was issued in a boastful and derogatory way. Choki Motobu, who was sitting in the audience, stepped up onto the stage (or ring) and in the ensuing battle he knocked the boxer out -- probably with a punch, or series of punches, to the head. That is about as much as we can say about it since no contemporary reports of the fight exist. [EN2]
I knew that the Japanese magazine Kingu ("King") had published a story on Motobu and the boxer back in 1925, but when I finally tracked this down and read the translation, I found that it was a piece of imaginative, popular journalism rather than an accurate blow-by-blow report. However, the importance of this feature lay not in its accuracy as a fight report but in the publicity it gave to what had previously been an obscure event. Kingu was the major general interest magazine at the time with a circulation of over a million and this is how Motobu's exploits came to be widely reported. For the record, the Kingu story states that Motobu knocked the boxer unconscious with a rising palm heel strike. On the other hand, Seiyu Oyata, a modern day Okinawan karate expert, states that Motobu won the fight by kicking the boxer in the solar plexus and finishing him off with a strike to the neck. Shoshin Nagamine (Shorin-ryu) says that the knockout came in the third round from a strike to the temple. Motobu hit the boxer so hard that he was knocked out and blood came from his ears. Nagamine was told by Motobu that he had won a hundred yen by betting on himself. [EN3]
There is no doubt that Choki Motobu was a formidable fighter. Hironori Ohtsuka, the founder of Wado-ryu, knew Motobu in the 1930s and recalled that he was "definitely a very strong fighter." Ohtsuka remembered seeing a fight, or maybe it was more of a sparring match, between Motobu and a boxer named Piston Horiguchi. Motobu blocked the boxer's attacks and Horiguchi was unable to land a single clean punch. [EN4]
Choki Motobu was over 50 years old when he defeated the western boxer! People on Okinawa used to say that he liked to fight more than anything else, and certainly he did not seem to mind a good brawl. In 1932, when he was 60 years old, a group of expatriate Okinawans brought him to Hawaii to face the fighters there, presumably boxers and judomen. However, no bouts took place because the Hawaiian immigration authorities considered him an undesirable and he had to leave almost immediately.
Motobu was born into a high-ranking family at a time when education and privilege were reserved for the first-born son. Consequently, as a third son, he was rather neglected. His elder brothers, however (and particularly Choyu Motobu, the eldest) were good karateka and he may have learned something of the art from them.
As a young man, Choki Motobu's ambition was to become the strongest man in Okinawa. To fulfil this ambition he trained himself every day, lifting stone weights and hitting the makiwara (striking post). There are stories that he would hit the makiwara a thousand times a day, and even if this is an exaggeration it illustrates the importance he attached to this training drill. Nagamine recalls that Motobu would sometimes sleep outside, (when he slept inside the dojo he would lie on the hard wooden floor, without a mattress), and if he woke up during the night, rather than turning over and going back to sleep he would get up and hit the makiwara. Motobu was also very agile and quick and he got the nickname "Motobu-saru" (Monkey Motobu) not only because of his rough behaviour but also because of his remarkable agility in climbing trees and moving from branch to branch as nimbly as a monkey. In his youth at least he seems to have been a good natural athlete.
He was a good runner, too, and Japanese karate expert Hiroyasu Tamae writes of one occasion when Motobu was fighting attackers then ran off, jumped nimbly onto a roof and began tearing off the roofing tiles and throwing them at his assailants, beating them off in this way. Tamae makes the point that Okinawan roof tiles are secured very strongly to withstand typhoons, and it requires powerful hands and arms to tear them loose, but for a man reputed to be the best fighter on Okinawa it still seems a strange way to act. I guess Motobu's behaviour was just eccentric at times. Gichin Funakoshi used to say that he never knew what Motobu would get up to next.
One time when Choki Motobu was watching the bullfighters in Shuri he constantly blocked the view of the spectator behind him. The man became increasingly agitated and finally shouted at Motobu and struck him with a walking stick. Motobu turned, grabbed the stick from the man and struck him back across the head -- knocking him unconscious. He may not have intended this but he was rough and heavy-handed and probably didn't realise his own strength. After he knocked several of them down however the rest ran off. It was incidents such as this that gave rise to Motobu's other nickname of "teijikun" -- "real fighter". (This story is from Richard Kim's book Weaponless Warriors.)
Choki Motobu's idea of a good training session was to go down to Naha's entertainment district and pick fights. This area was well known for street fighting and Motobu picked up valuable experience in this way. Being bigger and stronger than the average Okinawan he usually won these fights but there was one occasion when he tackled a man called Itarashiki and was well beaten. This Itarashiki was a karate expert and the defeat only made Motobu more determined to train hard and learn more about karate.
At this time around the turn of the century karate was just beginning to emerge from generations of secrecy and the senior masters were sensitive about the image of their art. They looked upon karate as a physical art, building health, strength and character and they did not approve of Motobu's exploits in the rough areas of town. Nevertheless he was able to get instruction from several leading experts. (Seikichi Toguchi has said that because of Motobu's upper class birth, many karate masters found it difficult to refuse him instruction.) Motobu originally studied karate with the famous Ankoh Itosu (1830-1915), the leading master of Shuri-te. However he came to feel that he was not learning enough, and growing dissatisfied with Itosu's teaching he later studied with Tomari-te's Kosaku Matsumora (1829-1898) and with Master Sakuma. However, Motobu's karate always seemed to bear his own distinctive stamp, arising no doubt from his independent nature and his fighting experiences. He always emphasised practicality and in time many people came to regard him as the best fighter on Okinawa. True, he was beaten in a shiai (contest) by Kentsu Yabu (1866-1937), Itosu's senior student and a tough character, but we don't know the full circumstances surrounding this. Yabu was Choki Motobu's senior in karate by several years, and at the time of the contest Motobu may have been a comparative novice. [EN5] This is something that needs clarification; but anyway it is a fact that Motobu was famous in Okinawa for his fighting ability.
I first read about this colourful figure years ago in Peter Urban's book Karate Dojo. Although this has remained one of my favourite karate books, it has little value as a historical source and Urban describes Choki Motobu as a giant of 7 foot 4 inches "with hands and feet like monstrous hams" an early Okinawan version of the Incredible Hulk in fact, who was almost impossible to hurt and who "preferred to grab his enemies and chop them to death." A couple of years later the American karateman, Robert Trias, trying to inject a note of reality (?) into the subject, told an interviewer that the accounts of Motobu's size had been exaggerated and that actually he was "only 6 feet 8 inches" tall.
All this was rather hard to believe and at one time I wrote to Richard Kim, the famous authority on karate history, about it. He kindly replied, stating that Motobu was a little under 6 feet tall and solidly built, weighting around 200 lbs. This sounded reasonable, yet as I learned more about Choki Motobu I had to constantly revise the estimates of his height downwards. In fact the existing photographs, taken in the 1920s and 1930s, show him to be no bigger, and in some cases smaller, than his training partners. The article in the old Kingu magazine gives his height as 5 feet 3 or 4 inches and I would think this is correct. He was thus only a little bigger than other early pioneers of Japanese karate such as Funakoshi, Mabuni and Konishi, although of a much heavier build.
The photos we have of Motobu show him in middle age when he had put on weight and thickened appreciably round the waist. He had a sturdy, robust appearance but for a reputed strongman, the muscular development of his arms, chest and back does not look particularly impressive, at least by today's standards.
Another myth about Motobu is that he only knew one kata, the Naihanchin (Tekki in the Shotokan version). This is incorrect. He also knew Passai -- evidently there is a rarely seen Motobu version of this kata -- and Gojushiho, and although he may not have practiced them he was aware of the major kata of each style -- Shuri-te, Naha-te, and Tomari-te. (He provided a list of the major kata in his book.) It would be true to say, however, that he did become attached to Naihanchin, and for all the talk about him not being good at kata, the photographic record shows that technically his performance of Naihanchin was quite as good -- if not better -- than Gichin Funakoshi's.
Choki Motobu was not against kata but he did require that they relate to combat. In Naihanchin for instance his students were taught to pay attention to various technical points. It seems that the nami-ashi ("wave returning" foot movement) in Naihanchin was originally interpreted as a stamping movement to attack the opponent's leg (now it is usually taught as a foot block against a kick) and consequently many karateka would crash their foot down noisily on the floor while doing this technique. Motobu however, although he did the movement strongly with a kiai, always kept good balance and put his foot down lightly. It wasn't that his technique was weak, because he once broke an opponent's leg with this stamping waza (technique). He explained to his students however that if the technique was brought down with a big crash then you might find it difficult to maintain your defence throughout the movement. According to Yasuhiro Konishi, Motobu thought about every detail in the kata in this kind of way.
However, where Choki Motobu really differed from other leading karate masters such as Funakoshi, Mabuni and Miyagi was in basing his style on the study of kumite.
Kata seemed to occupy a secondary position with him. His karate stressed alertness, sharpness, and practicality, and his experience in brawls and street fights showed through in his techniques, which were straightforward and effective. Some of his kumite-waza were shown in his book Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu. Kumite ("The Okinawan boxing art of karate-jutsu. Sparring techniques"), published in 1926. Incidentally, Motobu could not speak or write mainland Japanese at all well and it is thought that someone else must have written it under his direction, or possibly he dictated it. But at any rate the book's philosophy is his and he posed for all the illustrations.
Judging from this book, Motobu used a natural stance and it is noticeable that when blocking or striking he did not pull his other hand back to the hip (the action of hikite) but held it across his body as a guard, where it could be brought into action more readily. He also stressed training the weaker side of the body to bring it up to the natural side. For instance, in hitting the makiwara he recommended doing more repetitions with the weaker, left hand, if you were right handed. And he also frequently told his students to "Defend the centre of the body and attack the centre of the body," an early form of centre-line theory in fact.
Motobu also made full use of the lead hand for striking. This was rather advanced for that time, when the orthodox method was to block using the forward hand and to counterattack using the rear hand. Motobu taught that the forward hand, being closer to the opponent was quicker in action and should be used for striking effectively.
Choki Motobu relied mainly on hand techniques, with the feet and knees being used in a supporting -- but effective -- role, aiming his kicks at the stomach, groin and knee joints. He often liked to grab and he also used basic techniques of covering or checking the opponent's hands and arms. His attacks were directed not only to the face and midsection, but also to the groin (striking with the knee or foot, or grabbing the testicles) and knees (with stamping kicks). The forefist, backfist, elbow, and one-knuckle fist seem to have been his favourite weapons. According to Shosin Nagamine, Motobu attached some importance to the one-knuckle fist (keikoken), and he would train this technique on the makiwara, striking with full force. Over the years he had found that at close quarters the orthodox forefist punch might be smothered or unable to generate sufficient power and that in such situations keikoken could be very effective. "No other karateman in the history of Okinawan karate," wrote Nagamine, "has ever matched Motobu in the destructive power of keikoken."
As for training equipment, Motobu stressed the use of makiwara, and also recommended the use of the chishi and sashi, the traditional tools for building the strength of hands and arms. He also used to practice a crude form of weight lifting, lifting a heavy stone weighing say 130 lbs., to his shoulders daily.
Motobu sensei was actually the first of the Okinawan karate masters to settle in Japan, preceding Gichin Funakoshi by a year or so. He came to Osaka in 1921, but his purpose in coming to Japan may not have been to teach karate. He may simply have moved because, like many Okinawans, he believed Japan offered greater opportunities to make a living. In 1879 the Ryukyu Islands were made a prefecture (Ken) of Japan, and from then till 1945 this Okinawa-ken was Japan's poorest and most neglected prefecture. [EN6] Consequently, many islanders emigrated to Japan and it was estimated that by 1940 over 80,000 Okinawans were living there. This was out of an Okinawan population of something over half a million.
Motobu had been living in Japan a couple of years when he made the acquaintance of a judo teacher named Doi, who encouraged him to try and teach karate in Japan. Motobu subsequently began giving demonstrations and teaching in the Kobe-Osaka area, but development of the art was slow. After a couple of years he thought of giving it all up, but then in the mid-1920s interest in the art slowly began to grow. In 1927 he moved to Tokyo where he probably saw greater potential. [EN7]
When Motobu came up to Tokyo, Gichin Funakoshi had already been teaching there for several years, and a certain amount of ill-feeling arose between the two men, who had known each other back in Okinawa. It was something like a question of who was to assume the leadership of karate in Japan, but really, the two men were incompatible personalities. Gichin Funakoshi for instance seemed to feel that Motobu did not really understand the true nature of karate. Funakoshi, a man who valued propriety and culture, criticised Motobu's lack of education -- he called him an illiterate -- and his rough behaviour. For his part, Choki Motobu said that Funakoshi's art was just imitation karate, not much more than a dance. A Japanese karate teacher named Fujiwara has also pointed out that in the rigid social ranking system of Okinawa, Choki Motobu was two classes higher than Gichin Funakoshi was and so it was impossible for him to regard Funakoshi as his superior in any way.
I don't know if much ever came of all this, but there were rumours. Yasuhiro Konishi, who studied with both masters, heard that one time when the two men met, they began comparing techniques of attack and defence, as Okinawans often do. In demonstrating a movement Funakoshi was unable to block Motobu's thrust completely and moreover was knocked back several feet by its force. Konishi heard that Funakoshi was resentful about this. There was also a rumour that Motobu had challenged Funakoshi to a match and when the two met, he swept Funakoshi to the floor and followed up with a punch to the face, which stopped a couple of inches short -- just to show who was boss, I guess. Konishi could not vouch for the truth of this, and it may never have happened. Reading all the available material on Gichin Funakoshi, he does not come over as the type of person who went in for challenge matches -- just the opposite in fact. However, if the two men ever had met in a serious contest then (this is just my opinion) Motobu would probably have won rather easily. For one thing, Funakoshi, who was only 5 foot tall, was slightly built and would have been heavily outweighed. For another, Funakoshi never became involved in fights, whereas Motobu had the experience of numerous street fights behind him and was a fighter by nature.
But anyway, the years rolled by and "the leadership of karate", if it could be called such a thing, did pass to the Funakoshi school. The Motobu method does not seem to exist today as a distinctive style. Funakoshi organised his teaching well, he had energetic helpers (including his brilliant son, Yoshitaka), and influential friends such as Jigoro Kano, the famous founder of judo. Funakoshi's first book Ryukyu Kempo Karate (1922) contained forewords by such people as Marquis Hisamasa (the former governor of Okinawa), Vice Admiral Chosei Ogasawara, Count Shimpei Goto, and so on. Choki Motobu, however, never sought out such patrons, and in fact, according to Hironori Ohtsuka he was quite a solitary man. This agrees with the view of Konishi, who was quite close to Motobu for several years and never once saw him in an actual fight. Konishi felt that, although Motobu was obviously an exceptional fighter, he would never provoke trouble and was actually a very quiet person. So it sounds as if Choki Motobu grew calmer as he grew older. He seems to have been a straightforward, intelligent, but uncomplicated type of person who lacked Gichin Funakoshi's education and knowledge of Japanese culture and etiquette. Motobu did not speak mainland Japanese very well -- the Okinawans had their own dialect which was often incomprehensible to the Japanese -- and even when he moved to Tokyo he had to use Yasuhiro Konishi as an interpreter.
Choki Motobu spent nineteen years in Japan, teaching karate for most of that time. In 1940 he returned to Okinawa and died there in 1944.


"When Human Bullets Clash: Great Contest Between Karate and Boxing"
The story of Choki Motobu's contest with the boxer was featured in the Japanese magazine Kingu (King), in the September 1925 issue (No. 9), pages 195-204. It needed quite a bit of detective work to track this down and I must thank Mr. R.A. Scoales of the Japan Society of London and Mr. Kenneth Gardiner of the British Library for their help. It was Mr. Gardiner who finally located a copy of the article for me. I am also deeply grateful to Kenji Tokitsu, an authority on Japanese karate history now living in Europe, who made the following translation of the article.
***
In 1921 in Kyoto a series of contests was held between boxers and judoka. These gave rise to much discussion and drew many enthusiastic spectators. The fights were often extremely violent and surprised even those onlookers who regularly attended the annual [judo and kendo] contests at the Butokuden.
During the action someone with the appearance of an old countryman went over to the organisers and asked if a late entry to the fighting would be allowed. The following conversation occurred.
"Mmm. Who is it you wish to enter?"
"Myself."
"What? You? Are you a judoka, then, or a boxer?"
"No."
"Well, what have you trained in then?"
"Nothing special. But I think I could manage this type of contest. So, will you let me enter?"
"Yes, let him enter!" cried the onlookers who had been following all this with interest. "Everybody would want to see a surprise entrant."
"But he says that he doesn't do judo or boxing. I wonder if he does some form of provincial wrestling."
"It doesn't matter. Since he wants to enter he must have learned something. If not, he's an idiot. Let him enter!"
"Well, okay," said the promoter. "Do you know the rules?"
"Rules?" replied Motobu. "What rules?"
"It's forbidden [for anyone but the boxer] to strike with the fists and feet." [The boxer meanwhile could not grab or throw.]
"Mmm. What about an attack with the open hand?"
"That's alright."
"Fine, let's get on with it."
"Wait a minute. What uniform are you going to wear?"
"I'll just wear my ordinary clothes."
"Those you're wearing now? You can't do that. I'll lend you a judogi."
The promoter brought a judogi, and looked at the man, still trying to make him out. As he stripped a murmur of surprise arose from the onlookers. Although his face was that of a man well over fifty, the muscular development of his arms and shoulders was impressive and his hips and thighs looked extremely powerful.
Motobu was asked who he wanted to fight, a boxer or judoka. He replied, "Whomever you like," and the organisers decided to send him in against a boxer named George. [No surname or nationality is given in the article. The name may be invented.]
As the contestants entered the arena a cry rose from the crowd. "Look! A surprise entry!" "Who is this Motobu? I've never heard of him." "He looks like an old man. What's someone like him entering a contest like this for?"
The contrast between the two men was striking. Here was a boxer seemingly brimming with vitality against a man of fifty who stood only 5 feet 3 or 4 inches. As they began, George took up a boxing guard and moved about looking for an opening. Motobu lowered his hips, raising his left hand high with his right hand close to his right cheek. The spectators thought this looked like some kind of sword dance (karate was more or less unknown in Japan at this time) but actually it was the opening position of the Pinan Yodan kata.
George, the expert boxer, seemed surprised by the ability of the opponent whose guard presented no weak spot. He contented himself with searching for an opening, continually moving his fists around and feinting. Motobu kept his position.
George's breathing grew less steady and, realising that he might tire himself out if things continued like this, he edged forward and sent out a fusillade of blows to the face. Everyone expected to see the end of Motobu but without moving his position he parried the blows with his open hands and forced his opponent back.
Growing more and more frustrated as the fight went on, George steeled himself for an all out attack. He drew back his right hand and threw a punch with all his strength at Choki Motobu's head.
Just at the moment when it seemed as if Motobu's face would be crushed he warded off the punch with his left hand. The force of the parry unbalanced the boxer, forcing his hips to rise, and at that instant Motobu struck him in the face with the palm of his hand. George, struck on the vital point just below the nose with the rising palm strike fell to the ground like a block of wood.
Everyone was shouting! What had happened?
The organisers went to look for someone to help George, who was still unconscious. "What a formidable character!"
Various people who went to talk to Motobu were astonished by his hands, callused and almost as hard as stone. Even a blow with the open hand would be terrible, they thought.
"Ryukyu karate," said one. "Hmm. I didn't know such an art even existed. In fact, you have such trained hands that you don't need to be armed. The hands themselves are terrible weapons."
Spectators and contestants continued to talk for hours about the events which had taken place.
***
A few observations on this old article might be worthwhile. As I said, when I first heard about it I thought it might give an accurate account of the contest, but although it obviously relates to the events which occurred, both the descriptions of the action and the dialogue are imaginative. The author, someone writing under the pseudonym Meigenro Shujin, does not give his sources but he had done some basic research and probably had talked to some of the spectators or even Motobu himself. He may have even been at the event, but somehow I get the impression that he was not an eyewitness. In any case the article appeared four years after the events described (if the date of 1921 is correct) and by then people's memories may not have been too clear about what actually happened.
One point of interest is that the artist who did the accompanying illustrations (K. Nabashima) confused the two karate masters teaching in Japan at that time -- Choki Motobu and Gichin Funakoshi -- and drew the illustrations as if it had been Funakoshi and not Motobu who had defeated the boxer. I wonder what Choki Motobu thought about that when he saw the article?
For other source material the artist and author must have used Gichin Funakoshi's Rentan Goshin Karate Jutsu, published the same year (1925), as the illustration for "the guard of Pinan Yodan" is copied directly from that book. Of course the posture shown is not an "on guard" stance but an intermediate position of defence before a counterattack is launched. The writer probably chose this stance because it looked very "karateish", but it is hardly conceivable that Choki Motobu would use it. Kenji Tokitsu has pointed out it is unlikely that Motobu knew the Pinan kata, and even if he did know the order of the movements he did not practice them sufficiently to apply the techniques in combat. Anyway, we know that Motobu's fighting stance was much more natural and orthodox than this. One point that does emerge from the story however is that Motobu fought without the use of gloves and struck the knockout blow with his bare hands -- whether with the palm or closed fist we can't really be sure. It does not seem that Motobu used palm strikes much at other times.
The nationality of the boxer is not given but there is a tradition that he was German or Russian. His identity will probably never be known, and even if it was, it probably wouldn't mean very much to us. He was probably a White Russian who found himself in Japan and was making some money knocking over judomen. That he was the German heavyweight champion on his way to the USA to fight for the world championship, as has been suggested, is extremely unlikely. There simply was no German contender for the title at that time. The top European heavyweight was the Frenchman Georges Carpentier who did fight for the world title in July 1921 and was stopped by Jack Dempsey in four rounds. The first German boxer to acquire international reputation was Max Schmeling but he didn't win the German title until 1928, when he beat Franz Diener. [EN8]
As for him being the "Russian Heavyweight Boxing Champion" (per Bruce Haines in his Karate's History and Traditions), the Russians did not even have an organized boxing movement until after the Second World War, when they began competing internationally in all sports. [EN9]
All this is not to put down Choki Motobu's achievement, but just to try and introduce some kind of perspective into the stories which have grown up about this contest. I think that, sitting there watching the action, Motobu must have realised he had the measure of the boxers, but it still took courage and confidence to step up in front of a skeptical crowd and accept the challenge. When the fight actually began, he did what had to be done -- and he did it at an age -- fifty -- when most people today are happy to spend their time in front of the television or down at the pub. What a fascinating character he must have been.
Just a few words too about Kingu magazine and its publisher, Seiji Noma, the founder of Kodansha. The magazine was launched in 1925 and its circulation soon passed a million. It was the largest circulation general interest magazine of the time and martial arts featured frequently in its pages, mainly judo, kendo and samurai tales. Apart from the Motobu story, karate was rarely, if ever, featured in its pages.
In his younger days, Seiji Noma had been a teacher and in the years 1904 to 1908 he was an instructor in Japanese and Chinese classics at the Prefectural Middle School in Okinawa, the Ryukyu Islands. He wrote in his biography The Nine Magazines of Kodansha (1934) that "there could scarcely be a more remote outpost than Okinawa," and like most home-island Japanese he regarded the Okinawans as little more than peasants. However, he liked them a great deal and believed that this period was, "in a sense, the time of my life."
What is interesting, though, is that Noma mentions karate (called tekobushi) in his book, in what is one of the very first references to the art published in English. He writes:
The Ryukyuans are a pacific people, but like all those given to strong drink and leading a primitive life, they would commit acts of nameless cruelty if their blood was stirred. The Ryukyuans had developed through centuries of practice the peculiar art of self-defence and aggression known as tekobushi, which consists of making incredibly deft and powerful thrusts of the fist after the fashion of jujutsu or even boxing. This was the only possible mode of self-defence for the Ryukyuans, who had been prohibited the use of weapons by their double rulers of China and Japan. A Ryukyuan expert in this deadly art could smash every bone in his victim's body with the thrusts of his arms, as if he had struck with a giant hammer. Not infrequently poor victims were found dead by the roadside bearing marks of terrible blows from naked fists. Near Tsuji at night there were always gangs of roughs supposed to be skilled in tekobushii who were ready to pick quarrels with unwary strangers.
Noma was clearly relying on rumour and hearsay in writing this description, which would seem to show that before World War II there was little real awareness of karate among the general public, even in Okinawa. Noma also uses an old term for the art, meaning "warrior's hand" (te meaning hand and bushi meaning warrior). It is a little surprising that he was unaware that karate had actually been introduced into the Okinawan education system in a limited way while he was there -- especially as he was an enthusiastic budoka himself (he practiced kendo), and a schoolteacher too.


Some related matters
The Motobu family had its own martial art, which had been handed down through several generations. In the last century Chomura Motobu headed the family and he taught the system to his eldest son Choyu (1865-1927). The two other sons, Chosin and Choki, however, were not taught the art. As mentioned earlier it was customary for education to be centred on the eldest son, but Choyu Motobu himself also refused to teach his younger brother Choki because of the latter's rough behaviour. That is the story anyway.
An Okinawan named Seikichi Uehara was taught the art, though. He later began teaching and in 1961 formed his own school, calling it Motobu-ryu. Motobu-ryu is not to be confused with Choki Motobu's karate, and in fact it is not even a karate system. It is closer to jujutsu or aikijutsu, concentrating on locking and throwing techniques.
During Choki Motobu's period in Japan he taught such Japanese as Yasuhiro Konishi, Tatsuo Yamada, H. Ninomiya, S. Uejima (Kushin-ryu) and Hironori Ohtsuka (Wado Ryu). He also taught such Okinawans as Chozo Nakama and Shoshin Nagamine, and his influence can occasionally be seen in the teachings of these masters.
Yasuhiro Konishi, who died a couple of years ago, was one of our last links with the heroic period of Japanese karate. (A feature on Konishi, plus an exclusive interview, appeared in Fighting Arts, Vol. 4, No. 6.) It seems that Konishi knew anybody who was anybody in the martial arts. He originally practiced jujutsu and kendo but then in 1923, met Funakoshi and his assistant, Hironori Ohtsuka, and began studying karate. He was also a friend of Kenwa Mabuni, the founder of Shito-ryu, and one of the first students of Choki Motobu when Motobu settled in Tokyo. Konishi also trained with aikido's founder, Morihei Ueshiba, and he believed that, of all the experts he had trained with, Ueshiba was the greatest, a true master.
When Konishi left Funakoshi's school and began to study karate with Motobu, Funakoshi regarded him as a heretic. Motobu was so poor at this time that he was thinking of returning to Okinawa but Konishi helped him out by organising a kind of support association.
The bad feeling must have died down within a few years because Funakoshi was grateful when Konishi helped him enter the illustrious martial arts association, the Butokukai. Funakoshi was given the grade of Renshi, and later Tashi, and it is ironic that Konishi was on the Butokukai's karate examining board, since of course he was actually Funakoshi's student.
Konishi remembered the original group of Motobu's karate students in Tokyo. It included such people as Seiko Fujita, a jujutsu and martial arts expert who is remembered in some quarters as the "last officially recognised ninja" (i.e., the last to see active service), Lion Kamemitsu, and Tsuneo "Piston" Horiguchi, a western boxer -- and a colourful group it must have been.
In a little Japanese-language book called Talks on Karate, Konishi also reminisced with Hoshu Ikeda about Tatsuo Yamada, one of the earliest of Motobu's Japanese students. Yamada later founded "Nippon Kempo Karate" and I think he experimented quite a lot with bogu kumite (sparring with protective equipment). He was a tough, uncompromising character -- Konishi seemed to think he was something like "a boss of gangsters" -- and he called other karateka "dancers." Yamada was a friend of Hironori Ohtsuka and stayed with Ohtsuka during one period. Every time Ohtsuka went out to do a demonstration of kata, Yamada would say something like, "Oh, you're going out to dance again." Ikeda and Konishi agreed that Yamada was interested in a kind of precursor of kickboxing. Konishi told Ikeda that at that time (the 1930s) Tatsuo Yamada was one of the karate radicals. ("You can say that again!" Ikeda responded.)
Incidentally, Yamada was also an early student of Gichin Funakoshi, and Mas Oyama once said that he was the best karateman Funakoshi produced. This is not a view that many people would take, but Oyama may have seen in Yamada an early version of himself -- someone who stressed realism, conditioning and hard kumite; a radical who did not blindly follow tradition.
Piston Horiguchi was referred to earlier in this article, when his sparring match with Choki Motobu was mentioned. In fact, during his classes, Motobu would often tell Horiguchi to get up and spar with him.
A western-style boxer was something of a rarity in Japan in those days. [EN10] A fighter would frequently have to give away weight, and as an attraction boxers were occasionally known to fight sumo wrestlers. (They were not the grand champions, but still…) Not surprisingly their careers were short.
But what fighting spirit they had! Japanese boxers today are known for their courage, but the few veterans who can remember the pre-war days say that the modern fighters are soft by comparison -- although admitting that the modern fighters are better athletes and much better boxers.
Credits
Information on Choki Motobu and the other early masters of karate is scattered and difficult to trace. I am grateful to the following for their invaluable help: K. Gardiner, R.A. Scoales, and Kenji Tokitsu for help with the old "King" article; Mr. and Mrs. Brian Waites and Ron Ship for translations or help with translations; and Henri Plée and Terry O'Neill for material from their collections. Photos are courtesy Graham Nobel.
________________________________________
Editor's Notes (hit your back button to return to the text)
EN1. The first known Japanese-language karate book was Gichen Funakoshi's Ryukyu Kempo Karate (1922). In Ryukyu: A Bibliographic Guide to Okinawan Studies (Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press, 1963), Shunzo Sakamaki wrote that Karate Goshin Jutsu (1917) and Karate Goshin Hijutsu (1921) by Myuoken Kensai were earlier. However, this is not accurate, as the two earlier books described a jujutsu-based system of empty-handed combat rather than an Okinawan variant of southern Shaolin. This was confirmed by the National Diet Library of Japan in a letter to Graham Noble, and visually verified by a visit to the stacks by Mitchell Ninomiya.
EN2. This is not to say that there might not be something in the Japanese sporting press of the period, but like early issues of The Ring and Police Gazette, such documents are collectors' items even in Japan.
EN3. During the 1920s, the yen was worth about US $.45, and in October 1925 a Japanese laborer earned about ¥2.15 per day while a Chinese earned ¥1.24 and a Korean earned ¥1.2. So, assuming Motobu was working as a security guard, this sum represented around two months' wages.
EN4. The 19-year old Tsuneo "Piston" Horiguchi started boxing in Tokyo during the winter of 1932-1933. As he weighed about 125 pounds, Horiguchi usually fought featherweight. (I say "usually" because Japanese promoters tended to match fighters by their ability to please the crowd rather than their actual weights.) During most of the 1930s he was considered the Japanese national champion, but based on his international results the highest he was ever ranked internationally was third best in Hawaii. For further information, see Joseph R. Svinth, "Tsuneo 'Piston' Horiguchi," on this site.
EN5. It is possible that the contest was actually in Ryukyuan sumo (tegumi) rather than karate. For the discussion, see Joseph R. Svinth, "YABU Kentsu, 1866-1937: Karate Pioneer," Journal of Asian Martial Arts, forthcoming.
EN6. Okinawa's financial backwardness relative to the rest of Japan continues to the present.
EN7. The influence of judo founder Jigoro Kano on the spread of karate must not be underestimated. In 1922, he personally encouraged Gichin Funakoshi, and in 1927 the kind words he had for Chojun Miyagi and Kenwa Mabuni helped convince those two teachers to introduce their karate styles into Japan. For details, see Gichin Funakoshi, Karate-do Kyohan, The Master Text, translated from the Japanese by Tsutomu Ohshima (Tokyo: Kodansha International, 1973), 11; Gichin Funakoshi, Karate-do Nyumon: The Master Introductory Text, translated from the Japanese by John Teramoto (Tokyo: Kodansha International, 1988), 26-27; and Graham Noble, "Master Funakoshi's Karate: The History & Development of the Empty Hand Art," Dragon Times, 4 (1995) 7-8.
EN8. Although German Americans such as Otto Flint, Rudi Uzhols, and Adam Ryan boxed professionally in the United States during the early 1900s, when English promoter Jack Slim tried introducing Queensberry rules boxing into Berlin around 1910, he found little interest in an activity most Germans associated with brawling. Then, during World War I the YMCA introduced German prisoners-of-war to the sport. After the war some German veterans continued boxing, and this led to the establishment of a Deutschen Reichsverband für Amateurboxen in 1919. Over the next several years, boxing clubs were established throughout Germany and Austria, and by 1921, members of the German right wing were claiming that boxing and similar combative sports provided the "moral antidote needed to save German youth from further moral ruin now that the [mandatory] military service has been abandoned."
EN9. At an international level, this statement is correct, but during 1922-1923 the Bolsheviks introduced boxing as a mass sporting movement into the Soviet Union, and by 1934 the All-Union contests in Moscow were drawing about a hundred fighters. In Japan, the Russian boxers were mostly White Russians and Czechs who had been evacuated from Vladivostok in October 1922. Yujiro Watanabe, the father of Japanese professional boxing, fought several of these men and said that they were not real boxers, but instead men who had never seen gloves before coming to Japan. This was not hyperbole, either, as in The Ring in November 1924 Dan Walton described Ivan Karloff, a 25-year old White Russian who had started boxing in Yokohama during 1923. "A crack athlete in Russia, Karloff took up jiu jitsu and boxing while in Japan and his first boxing contest resulted in a four-round kayo victory over Jack Anson, a giant negro sailor." Technically, said Walton, Karloff "showed promise, although naturally his ring tactics were by no means polished."
EN10. Although there had been boxing versus jujutsu matches in Japan as early as the 1890s, the country's first gloved boxing match between recognised professionals took place in Tokyo in May 1922. The Japanese participants included Yujiro Watanabe and "Young Togo" Koriyama, both of whom had learned their trade in the United States before 1920, while the American participants included the California fighters Charley "Young Stanley Ketchell" Mitchell and Spider Roche.

JCS Feb 2000



Choki Motobu:
Through The Myth...To the Man
By Tom Ross
Introduction
by Christopher Caile
This is the first of a two articles exploring the truths and misconceptions about Choki Motobu who was arguably one of Okinawa's greatest early twentieth century karate masters, and the most colorful. He was also the least understood and probably the most maligned.
Motobu was the third son in a great Okinawan family that had enjoyed privilege and landed nobility (Motobu peninsula), but which was largely ended by Japanese annexation of the island, modernization and social reorganization. A strong ox of a man with a will and ego to match, Motobu preferred the tough and tumble, practical karate over the pure practice of kata. Like many of his day, Motobu was not raised speaking Japanese nor was he schooled in the mainland's sophisticated etiquette and ways.
When he traveled to Japan this worked to his detriment and contributed to misunderstanding about him. He was at a comparable disadvantage to the like of Gichen Funakoshi, an educator, who spoke Japanese and was well versed in Japanese social skills. The two could not have been more different, like oil and water, with no love lost among their adherents. Funakoshi had been selected to give the first official demonstration of karate in Japan and whose intellectual approach gained him notoriety and a dedicated following. In contrast Motobu was more concerned with effective technique and fighting skills. And while he influenced many karateka in Japan, he never developed a large karate organization around his teaching as did Funakoshi.
The Time Period
Twenty five years or so into the new twentieth century found Japan rising to the drumbeat of nationalism. Her victories over China in 1895 as well as Russia in 1905, followed by the official annexation of Korea in 1910, set the stage for militarism and pride in all things Japanese.
The Karatedo that Gichin Funakoshi had brought from Okinawa and had begun to teach in the Japanese capital was developing strong roots, and by April 12, 1924 he had awarded the first dan ranks in Karatedo (Sells 1996) to those who would serve as his cadre. It was a difficult task for this Okinawan gentleman, teaching what was essentially a foreign martial art on mainland Japanese soil. But with the aid and inspiration of Jigoro Kano (the founder of judo) and later the Dai Nippon Butokukai (Great Japan Martial Virtues Association founded in 1895 to preserve and promote the martial arts and ways), Karatedo would find its history carefully sanitized and the art repackaged in the image of Judo, Kendo and many other art forms. This was necessary for its acceptance into the Japan of the day. Karatedo would now be a gentleman's art whose ultimate purpose was self-cultivation. There was no room for the Bushi (samurai) of yesteryear, nor the heavy handed.
The Man
Choki Motobu was born on April 5, 1870. His father Choshin was a descendent of the sixth son of the Okinawan King, Sho Shitsu, namely Prince Sho Ko, also known as Motobu Chohei (Iwai 1994). Due to this lineage the male members of the family were permitted to retain the "CHO" character in their given names (Sells 1996). Young Choki, as third son to Choshin, was regarded by the Okinawan culture of the day as the rough equivalent to a feudal lord in social status. It has been stated by the noted historian Kinjo Hiroshi that although Choki was fathered by Choshin, Choki's mother was not his wife, but a courtesan. Choki was thus only a half brother to his elder Choyu, the eldest son in the family. It has been further suggested that he was consistently reminded of this fact as a child, and this may have contributed to his temperament.
Choki's eldest brother Choyu, in the Okinawan tradition, was given a fine education. He was also taught the family's secret "Ti" (fighting art) tradition that was only passed on to the eldest son. Young Choki was never allowed to participate. By some accounts, however, Choki secretly looked on at his elder brother's training and picked up many rudiments of the art.
Choki grew up with his mother. He was considered a strong child with a willful and fiery temperament, but athletically gifted and agile. His agility eventually earning him the name "Motobu no Saru Umei" (Monkey Motobu) for his ability to climb and swing in trees. At the age of four Choki was forced to begin attending school, but by his own account he hated studying and would often sneak off to play with friends (1).
Contrary to popular myth the legacy of Karate jutsu (karate whose emphasis is focused on effective technique) left by Choki (as distinct from his family tradition passed down through his brother) is alive and well, having been preserved by his son Chosei. It is through the works of Tsukuo Iwai, a top student of Chosei and a historian in his own right, that we obtain further glimpses passed down about the early years of Choki Motobu. Choki and his two brothers would often hit the makiwara and practice karate by imitation beginning at a very early age. Initially his training came via a relative who frequently visited the home. This Kobujutsu Master known as Ufuchiku (an old term roughly equivalent to police superintendent) would be immediately greeted at the door by Choki, who would say "let's practice Ti!" (Iwai 1994).
Ufuchiku was none other than the legendary Sanda Kanagusuku, a very close friend of Bushi Matsumura (the best known karate master of his time and teacher of Itosu). It is perhaps through him and his vast experiences in law enforcement that gave the basis for Choki's appreciation of the practical side of Karate.
Upon reaching his teen years Choki and Choyu both began training under Itosu (the great karate teacher who first introduced karate into the Okinawan school system, although the karate historian Mark Bishop states that he was eventually asked to leave because of his attitude of always trying to prove himself. Some sources also say he was a student of Bushi Matsumura. But despite his training, Choki could never seem to best his brother at "hindi" (2) (an older term for Kumite) which caused Choki to devote himself even more to training (Iwai 1994).
As reported in the 1934 journal, Karate no Kenkyu, Choki explained, "I was interested in the martial arts since I was a child and studied under many teachers. I studied under Itosu Sensei for seven to eight years." He went on to train with Matsumura Soken, Sakuma of Gibo and Kosaku Matsumora of Tomari (Iwai, 1994).
The common tales referring to Choki Motobu as a student of "no one," are thus less than accurate. If we take at face value that Choki spent two years living and training with Matsumora of Tomari (Sells 1996), then Motobu had nine to ten years of formal training without even considering the time spent with Kanagusuku (as a child) Sokon Matsumura and Sakuma of Gibo!
I have the impression however the greatest amount of time and the greatest impressions upon Motobu were made by Itosu, Sakuma and Kasoku Matsumora, for it is these men that he mentioned when asked during the 1936 meeting of the masters (Trans. McCarthy 1994).
The Search Begins
Having been exposed to so many brilliant masters of the day and at such a young age, Motobu's concepts of martial applications must have grown by leaps and bounds. It is through the research of Shoshin Nagamine in his book, "Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters," that we know that Motobu at the age of about seventeen approached a well known wrestler by the name of Komesu Magi (then thirty two and considered to be the biggest and strongest wrestler on Okinawa), asking him for a match.
Komesu was apparently very reluctant to engage someone of Motobu's high social standing, but relented when Choki insisted he merely wished to compare the differences between Karate and wrestling techniques. Motobu is said to have come away from this experience having learned about the strengths and limitations of Karate technique. If this account can be accepted as true, and there is no reason to doubt it, then Choki at the tender age of seventeen had a pretty fair knowledge of karate technique and was beginning his journey of self discovery.
Following his twentieth birthday, having gained confidence in his skills and perhaps motivated by his budding manhood, Choki visited the Tsuji Machi (known as the Red light district) to test his skills against those of similar ilk.
It is here where Motobu reputedly suffered perhaps his only real defeat, against Itarishiki (Iwai 1994), a fight that he would review night after night in his head. Nevertheless return Motobu did, and he would later recount, "I started having real fights at Tsuji when I was young and fought over a hundred of them, but I was never hit in the face" (3). According to Nagamine, Motobu was never known to start a fight, but was also never known to run from one. From these matches Motobu gained tremendous experience and adopted many practical techniques into his repertoire of skills.
Perhaps we should not judge Motobu so harshly, for in the words of Kenei Mabunie (the son of the great karate master and founder of Shito-ry karate): "In his younger days many people would challenge my father to Kake-dameshi (challenge match) or an exchange of techniques after they heard he was practicing Te. He accepted these challenges and would choose a quiet corner of town for the match."
Kenwa Mabuni himself recalled, "A young man he taught himself to fight independently as he had no Sensei for this. He attempted to prove himself by challenging many famous Sensei. Of course the Sensei would all refused his challenge and he returned home proud that these teachers were all afraid of him, not realizing they refused for his sake!"
While these accounts are interesting and obviously designed to discourage violence, it appears that they may be less than totally honest. It would be slightly naive to believe that no Kake-dameshi between two men trying to prove themselves ever escalated or that blood was never drawn. While Motobu was certainly no saint he was perhaps unjustly vilified for failing to conceal a part of his past that perhaps many more are guilty of than care to admit! It is further interesting to note that if Motobu was truly the barbaric anomaly he is often portrayed to be, by 1918 he was a respected member of an informal study group comprised of his brother Choyu, Chojun Miyagi, Shinpan Gusukuma and Chotoku Kyan (Sells 1996).
Part 2 of Choki Motobu:Through The Myth...To the Man
Footnotes:
(1) As noted in the text "Motobu Choki Sensei:Goroku" by Hashihiko Nakata 1978
(2) This brotherly competition was the most likely source of rumors in regard to fights between Choyu and Choki. There is nothing to corroborate them as being anything more serious and this was further regarded as Highly implausible By Seikichi Uehara as mentioned by Richard Florence in Vol 5 Number 3 1996 in his personal interview with Richard Florence M.A.
(3)As noted in the text "Motobu Choki Sensei:Goroku" by Hashihiko akata 1978.

Choki Motobu:
Through The Myth...To the Man
Part 2
By Tom Ross
Editor's Note: This is the second of a two articles exploring the truths and misconceptions about Choki Motobu who was arguably one of Okinawa's greatest early twentieth century karate masters. Part one discussed Motobu's childhood, family, education and early karate training. Part two discusses the kata Motobu knew and practiced, his move to Japan, rivalry with Funakoshi, accomplishments and his continuing legacy.
The Kata Of Motobu
Although it is often alleged that Motobu knew only the katas Naihanchi Shodan and possibly Passai, in light of recent developments this appears to be a complete misinterpretation of Motobu's knowledge and method of teaching. It was quite a common practice in the old days to begin a student training with Naihanchi kata and only when he mastered it to a degree considered sufficient was a new form taught. This seems to be corroborated through the words of Konishi Yasuhiro (as told by Yamazaki Kiyoshi in an article on Konishi) (4):
"Konishi Sensei considered Motobu to be a martial genius and made every effort to train with him. Motobu Sensei's favorite Kata was the Naifanchin kata (another pronunciation of Niahanchi). As a teacher he knew many Kata, but would only teach them once the student had mastered Naifanchin."
Given Motobu's vast knowledge of Naihanchi, the applications of which were forged through actual altercations, it likely took a significant period of time to progress to another kata with him. Thus many of the modern stories which recount Motobu as knowing or having shown only the kata Naihanchi are told by those having trained for less than a year with him!
Further proof of Motobu's knowledge of other Kata comes inadvertently from Motobu himself. Motobu is quoted by Nakasone Genwa as describing a visit to Itosu Sensei (Itosu was perhaps the most famous karate teacher of his time) as follows:
"I visited him one day near the school, where we sat talking about the martial arts and current affairs. While I was there two to three students dropped by and sat talking with us. Itosu Sensei turned to the students and said 'Show us a kata!' The Kata they performed was very familiar to the Channan Kata that I knew but there were also some differences. Upon asking the students what the kata was, he replied, 'It is Pinan no Kata!'. The students left shortly after that, upon which I turned to Itosu Sensei and said 'I learned a Kata called Channan, but the Kata that those students just performed now was different, What is going on?" Itosu Sensei replied, "Yes, The kata is slightly different but the kata that you just saw is the kata that I have decided upon." (Nakasone 1934)
While it has been speculated that Motobu never learned the Pinan kata (sometimes known as Heian), it appears now that this information may be correct. Motobu learned from Itosu before Itosu had fully developed the Pinans, a time when the katas were still practiced in their prototype form.
We further know that Choki Motobu passed on a significant array of kata which are part of the curriculum as maintained by his son Chosei. They include Naihanchi Shodan and Nidan, Channan (the predecessor of the pinan kata which within the Motobu system are called Shiraguma no Kata), Passai, Wanshu, Wankan, Chinto, Kusanku, Chinti and others. This demonstrates that Motobu was far more knowledgeable in terms of the kata than many have given him credit for.
Move To Japan
In 1923 (Iwai 1994; other sources say 1921), perhaps in an effort to find greener pastures, Motobu moved with his family to the city of Osaka on mainland Japan. Not long afterwards he returned briefly to Okinawa for three months which he spent training with his brother Choyu. This was when a nineteen year old student of Choyu by the name of Seikichi Uehara first met Choki. Uehara recalled having Choki for a training partner: "Every time I punched Choki hit my arm before I could touch him. He hit it so hard he almost broke my arm" (Uehara 1992).
Soon after Choki returned to Osaka, he obtained a job as a security guard. This was no small feat for someone who reputedly never learned to speak Japanese in any fluent fashion. We must remember, however, that Motobu was nobility by birth and perhaps as an act of personal defiance (which was not unheard of in those days, something also done by the karate legend Hohan Soken), he refused to humble himself and learn what was to him a foreign tongue.
In November of 1924 (Iwai 1994) an event would took place which brought Choki to the attention of many on mainland Japan. On his day off from work at the factory, Choki and his landlord saw a sign advertising a challenge match with boxers in Kyoto and decided to go. Having viewed several matches where the boxer (reputed to be a European boxing champion) defeated several judo people, Motobu accepted the challenge himself. He entered and felled the much larger boxer.
Motobu would later recount to students: "When I fought the foreign boxer in Kyoto, he was taller than me so I jumped up and punched him in the face. This is effective against people who are taller than you." (5) This did much to stimulate Motobu's reputation (according to Iwai) and many began to seek him out for instruction.
Another source (Choso Nakama quoted in the book, "Okinawa Karate" by Mark Bishop) recounted that Motobu had at first just dodged the boxer. But in the second round the boxer came on strong. Motobu hit him (after jumping up) with a typical "Ti" (old term for karate) technique, a knuckle strike behind the ear.
At fifty-two years of age and after putting his honor and reputation on the line, Choki finally began to attract the attention he truly deserved. Choki formed the Society for the Promotion of Toudijutsu (an old term for karate).
It certainly must have been a shock to Motobu, however, when in the following September (1925) an article appeared in Kingu magazine describing his bout with the boxer.




1925 King Magazine article showing Funakoshi, not Motobu, defeating a boxer in a challenge match.
The picture accompanying the article, however, was not of him. Instead it was a drawing of none other than Gichen Funakoshi, shown as felling the boxer.
It was rumored by those close to Motobu that he was angry about this misrepresentation but felt quite helpless against the resources of company the size of Kodansha (which owned Kingu). Perhaps he felt Funakoshi himself or one of his collage student Karateka (where many journalists began) was behind the error.
In any event there was certainly some bad blood between them and this incident may very well have played a part in Motobu's decision to go to Tokyo and seek out Funakoshi.
Although many stories exist about a confrontation between the two (6), I am unable to find any confirmed accounts giving specifics of the battle. David Chambers, however, in a Tsunami video tape, "Wado Ryu the way of peace and harmony," claims that: "Yasuhiro Koneshi reported that a newspaper carried the story of a fight that took place between the two in 1930. When Funakoshi finally faced his nemesis, his feet were instantly swept from beneath him and he suffered the indignity as he lay at Motobu's feet of having his face menaced with the latters enormous fist."
Whatever the facts of this story, Motobu was beginning to attract attention. Several judoka and wrestlers sought him out to learn fighting skills. Two of Funakoshi's top students (Hironori Ohtsuka and Koyu Konishi) also left to train with Motobu. The defection further added to the deterioration of relations between the two teachers. Another karateka to seek out Motobu was Kose Kuniba (known as Kosei Kokuba in Okinawa).
Interest in the testing of karate fighting skills was perhaps understandable since in Japan at that time, judo (a synthesis of old jujutsu self-defense systems) and kendo (old warrior sword arts modified into a sporting form) had been adopted into the Japanese education curriculum and were popular. Both offered competition formats. The attraction of practice fighting thus naturally bled over to many young karateka who sought to test their skills or develop effective technique in their own art.
The true feelings between Motobu and Funakoshi may never truly be known. But, it can be assumed that Funakoshi (a well educated school teacher who spoke Japanese and was well versed in Japanese social customs) may have regarded Motobu to be densely illiterate. He was also probably irritated by the fact that Motobu was higher placed in the old Okinawan class system. Motobu in turn probably regarded Funakoshi as a mere confidence man, someone who had learned only the most superficial aspects of karate and kata and was not a strong fighter.
If Motobu's intent in traveling to Tokyo was to drive Funakoshi out, he didn't succeed. Funakoshi had been there a bit too long and Motobu's lack of linguistic ability surely limited his ability to communicate.
To Motobu's credit he did manage to author two rather excellent books on Karate. It has been put forth by Chozo Nakama (a disciple of Chosin Chibana) that these works were dictated and translated into proper Japanese for publishing. This is only logical since Motobu didn't speak more than pigeon Japanese.
The first book, "Okinawa Kempo: Karate-Jutsu On Kumite" was published in 1926. It came just four years after Funakoshi produced the first published book on karate. Funakoshi's book (1922 and updated with photos instead of drawings in 1924) illustrated mostly kata and formalized self-defense. The two books couldn't have been more different.
Funaksohi's book reflected his own personal preference of kata as a principal teaching method and his opposition to focusing on sparring. He considered it detrimental to karate practiced as a martial way.

Motobu's book was just to opposite. Its focus was on fighting -- effective close-in skills as illustrated in this photo. Featured were a series of practical responses to variety of attacks. Utilized were a variety of punches, vital point and unbalancing techniques accompanied by grabs, blocks, knees and strikes using both arms. Kicks, it should be noted, were minimal.

In 1932 Motobu published a second book, "Watashi no Karatejutsu" ("My karatejutsu") which served as a natural complement to his first. This book focused on illustrating his favorite kata, Naihanchi, along with many applications, some of which had been adopted and illustrated in his first book. Notice that this photograph from his book illustrating a move from the kata Naihanchi (Tekki in some Japanese systems) illustrates the same stance and technique as used in a fighting technique (above photo) illustrated in his first book.

Coming Home
Choki Motobu returned to Okinawa several times, most notably for the 1936 meeting of the masters sponsored by the Ryukyu Shinposha (Okinawa newspaper company). The purpose of this meeting was to discuss the promotion and future development of Karate (McCarthy 1994).


Other attendees included such other karate masters as Chojun Miyagi, Choshin Chibana, Chomo Hanshiro, Shinpan Gusukuma, Juhatsu Kiyoda and Chotoku Kyan. (7)
Motobu was respected both as a person and a martial artist during his lifetime. After his death, however, negative rumors and stories circulated (perhaps propagated by those who feared him in life). He is often described by those who actually knew him, however, as a quiet man who presented the very picture of dignity.
Choki Motobu passed from this life on August 1944.
Concepts of Toudi (karate)
The following are but a few of the noted concepts Choki Motobu expressed to his students and are recorded by Hashihiko Nakata as overseen by Kenji Marukawa (a direct student of Choki Motobu) from the 1978 essay "Motobu Choki Sensei Goroku" (Collection of sayings by Choki Motobu) as partially translated by Joe Swift.
"Everything is natural and changing.
Kamae is in the heart, not a physical manifestation.
One must develop the ability to deflect attack even from behind.
In a real confrontation, more than anything else strike to the face first, as this is most effective.
When punching to the face one must thrust as if punching through the head.
Kicks are not all that effective in a real confrontation.
When blocking kicks, one must block as if trying to break the opponents shin.
One must try and block the attack at its source (Block not the attacking hand but deeper on the arm).
Karate IS Sente
One can not use continuous attacks against true Karate. That is because the blocks of Karate make it impossible to launch a second attack."
Motobu's Legacy
While Motobu never became as famous as Funakoshi, around whom Shotokan karate and its many offshoots developed, he did leave a rich karate heritage in the Osaka, Kyoto and Gunma areas of Japan. While he never organized his own system, he did play a positive role in the development of several karateka who went on to become famous in their own right. This included Yasuhiro Konishi (who also studied with Funakoshi) who founded Shindo Jinen Ryu in 1934 and Kose Kuniba who founded Seishinkai Karatedo in 1934. Another student was Hironori Ohtsuka (also a well known student of Funakoshi) who went on to found Wado-ryu karate with a curriculum that stressed practice fighting, something that reflected Motobu's influence.
Choki Motobu's son, Chosei, also continues to teach his father's tradition of karate. The style is known as Nihon Denryu Heiho Motobu Kempo and the name of his individual dojo is the "Daidokan."
Between the publication of his second book and his return to Okinawa in 1936, there is little information, but there is one fascinating reference. It is recorded that he traveled to Hawaii in March of 1932 and encountered visa problems.
Refused entry, for about a month he was detained at Honolulu immigration station before being returned to Japan.
While in Hawaii Motobu began to instruct Thomas Shigeru Miyashiro, a resident who tried to help Motobu with his visa problems. This started a continuing relationship with Motobu, who is reported to have asked both Mizuho Mutsu and Kamesuke Higashionna to continue to help train Miyashiro when they traveled to the island the next year. This relationship was later continued by Choki's son. Chosei (along with Takeji Inaba) visited Hawaii Karate Seinenkai on April 25, 2001.
It is my sincere hope that in the future additional facts will come to light about this great man and that he will be given credit not only as a talented Karateka but as the Martial Genius I believe he truly was. It will only be through the objective observation of the facts and accounts of those who knew Choki Motobu that we will be able to see "Through the Myth to the Man."
Acknowledgments
Special Thanks to Joe Swift for his friendship, encouragement and translations as well as his intense dedication to Karate which allowed me to obtain the substance to back my thoughts and without whom this search for the truth would not have been possible. Thanks also to Christopher Caile whose editing, addition of pertinent historical facts and historical photo collection added much to this article series. Thanks also to Patrick McCarthy for the images from the 1925 King Magazine article which depicted Funakoshi, not Motobu, defeating a boxer in a challenge match and the picture of Motobu's 1932 book, "Watashi no Karatejutsu," which he is currently translating.
Footnotes
(1-3) Footnotes found in part one of this two part series.
(4) As recounted in a special article for Dragon times Vol. 9, The Origins of Karate-do, "Shindo Jinen Ryu Karate," Yasuhiro Konishi Sensei's contribution to Karate by Howard High (Note: The Dragon Times in its printed version of its publication erroneously attributed the authorship of this article to Kiyoshi Yamazaki, an error corrected in the Web version of the article).

(5) As noted in the text Motobu Choki Sensei: Goroku" by Hashihiko Nakata 1978.
(6) In Nakata's 1978 book, which was overseen by Choki's direct student Kenji Marukawa, Motobu recounts the following statement: "When I came to Tokyo, there was another Okinawan there who was teaching Karate quite actively. When in Okinawa I hadn't even heard his name. Upon guidance of another Okinawan I went to the place where he was teaching youngsters, where he was running his mouth, bragging. Upon seeing this, I grabbed his hand, took up the position of Kake kumite and said "What will you do?" He was hesitant, and I thought to punch him would be too much ' so I threw him with Kote Gaeshi at which he fell to the ground with a thud. He got up, his face red and said "Once more" so we took up the position of Kake Kumite again, and again I threw him with Kote Gaeshi. He did not relent and asked
for another bout, so he was thrown again for a third time."
(7) It was at this meeting that the masters agreed to the change of the first character ("Kara") in the name karate to mean "empty," rather than "Chinese" (both characters are pronounced the same) which had been the most widely used meaning up to that time. This was an important change because "empty hand" was a much more acceptable meaning of the term karate in Japan than "Chinese hand. This change was an important factor in the widespread adoption of karate on the Japanese mainland.
References
Koden Ryukyu Karatejutsu (Tokyo Airyudo 1994) by Iwai Tsukuo (partial translation by Joe Swift)
"Channan: The 'Lost' Kata of Itosu?"

Timothy.G.B.
30th January 2005, 17:54
Hi Robert:

Thanks for posting the articles on Motobu Sensei. Great pieces of information and enjoyable to read.

One part that I noticed was reference in one of the pieces to hindi which the author describes as an old way of saying kumite. Our Dai Sensei talks about findi (or hindi) not as kumite but as "change hands".

I had never seen it referenced as kumite before. So, I found that interesting.

Best,
Tim Black
Kokusai Shinjinbukan

seskoad
7th February 2005, 11:03
Is there any motobu ryu nowadays? If not, then what was his really style

shisochin#1
7th February 2005, 11:15
There are several styles that were influenced by Choki Motobu including Motobu ha Shito ryu , Matsubiyashi Shorin ryu , and there is a Motobu ryu. Which Choki Motobu's son is spreading around the world now . He has a video out that I believe you can get at dragon tsunami .

chizikunbo
7th February 2005, 16:41
Originally posted by seskoad
Is there any motobu ryu nowadays? If not, then what was his really style
Sikichi Uehara Sensei was the inheritor of the system from Choyu Motobu, Choki's older brother. He has several videos you can get as well.

Thansk fro the artical, by the way.

Troll Basher
7th February 2005, 20:55
Originally posted by chizikunbo
Sikichi Uehara Sensei was the inheritor of the system from Choyu Motobu, Choki's older brother. He has several videos you can get as well.

Thansk fro the artical, by the way.

What Motobu's son and what Sekichi Uehara teach are different.

chizikunbo
8th February 2005, 17:09
Choki Motobu's son?
I was answering in regards to Motobu-ryu not Choki's system. :smilejapa

robertmrivers
9th August 2005, 13:54
Hello all

Motobu Chosei, son of Motobu Choki and nephew to Motobu Choyu, is Soke of BOTH Motobu Ryu KEMPO and Motobu Ryu UDONDE...the imperial style led by Uehara Seikichi. Uehara Sensei passed the style to Motobu Sensei before his death in 2004. The official ceremony honoring Motobu Sensei as the new Soke is in September 2005.

Rob Rivers

robertmrivers
9th August 2005, 13:57
The two styles are different and the systems are kept separate and taught separately. There are of course several legitimate off shoots of the Udonde including Shian Toma Sensei's group which you can find here in the US.

Rob Rivers

Luisan
15th August 2005, 06:01
I am also deeply grateful to Kenji Tokitsu, an authority on Japanese karate history now living in Europe, who made the following translation of the article.

:)

Trolly gla
d you liked something from Kenji Tokitsu.

RobertRousselot
16th August 2005, 21:08
:)

Trolly gla
d you liked something from Kenji Tokitsu.


You should try reading before you post. It says "By Graham Noble".

hectokan
17th August 2005, 00:35
Does okinawan karate have a Motobu bad !!! of today willing to step into the MMA rings of Japan?Or was the Motobu fight with a boxer eons ago all she wrote ?

RobertRousselot
17th August 2005, 07:35
1) Does okinawan karate have a Motobu bad !!! of today willing to step into the MMA rings of Japan?Or was the Motobu fight with a boxer eons ago all she wrote ?

1) Don’t know and don’t really care. Plus I don’t know every okinawan karate person.

You seem to like to ask this type of question a lot. Any special reason why?
Also, what art do you training in? Do you fight MMA? If so then what’s your MMA record and have you fought any big names?

Maddog Mitchell
17th August 2005, 09:56
Robert,

Hector is a former Boxer and Kickboxer who has also done Muay Thai and currently sits on the Florida Boxing Commission as one of only two certified Mixed Martial Arts Judges in Florida who travels the state to judge events. I'm not quite certain of his record but I'm willing to bet it was a winning record in all three.

He is also an active Judo Yudansha under Sensei Jack Williams and an active Purple Belt in BJJ. He has also won quite a few tournaments in both venues. He was a former Yudansha in Shotokan Karate and Kenshokai Goju. I say former as he no longer practices Karate, however he was well known in the Traditional Karate circuit for his fighting.

I'm pretty much nobody, but in my book Hectors a bad arse and you'd never know it meeting him as he's a gentleman and an all around nice guy. He does like to stir the pot Karate wise.

Regards,

Mike Mitchell

RobertRousselot
17th August 2005, 12:02
Robert,

Hector is a former Boxer and Kickboxer who has also done Muay Thai and currently sits on the Florida Boxing Commission as one of only two certified Mixed Martial Arts Judges in Florida who travels the state to judge events. I'm not quite certain of his record but I'm willing to bet it was a winning record in all three.

He is also an active Judo Yudansha under Sensei Jack Williams and an active Purple Belt in BJJ. He has also won quite a few tournaments in both venues. He was a former Yudansha in Shotokan Karate and Kenshokai Goju. I say former as he no longer practices Karate, however he was well known in the Traditional Karate circuit for his fighting.

I'm pretty much nobody, but in my book Hectors a bad arse and you'd never know it meeting him as he's a gentleman and an all around nice guy. He does like to stir the pot Karate wise.

Regards,

Mike Mitchell

Mike,


Kool. Thanks for the information.

I have been working out with some Muay Thai, PRIDE and Shoot Fighters, ….a guy named Gomi Takanori (PRIDE Champion for his weight class), Takeya Mizugaki and a few other guys that just turned Pro. It takes a little more effort to spar/work out with someone that actually fights as their job as opposed to sparring someone that just does it for “fun”. ….it kicks it up a notch that’s for sure…especially when they are 20 years younger than you are.
It’s fun and interesting but at 40+ years of age I don’t see myself turning “Pro”. Getting older sucks sometimes.

A couple of shots of Gomi beating Luiz Azeredo and Jean Silva.

hectokan
17th August 2005, 12:21
1) Don’t know and don’t really care. Plus I don’t know every okinawan karate person.

You seem to like to ask this type of question a lot. Any special reason why?




Robert,
you might not know or care But I think Motobu would of cared.The MMA scene IMO would have been something right up Motobus alley as he was a fighter at heart.

I ask this question because IMO it is a valid one.Motobu was a karate practicioner who was also known for being a ruffian that liked to brawl.he even fought in a ring in Japan against a so called boxer.

You don't need to get your feathers all ruffled because I ask a direct and valid question.The reason I asked this question is simple...for as long as I have read your posts you seem to always put Japanese karate in a bad light....why?.......Are the okinawan martial artists superior in race or their fighting arts?Remember I have nothing but respect for all arts including Okinawan karate but from reading your post they "okinawan karate" seem to have this profound knowledge of the fighting arts that unfortunatley in your eyes was not passed down to the Japanese.I beg to differ I think the Japanese wanted to add their own flavor to it,like they do with everything else they import.Remember they had fighting arts way before karate even came to Japan.


Okinawa has an old wrestling art that the natives like to play and since MMA is just a game/sport (in somepeoples eyes)with no carry over benifits whatsoever for any real fighting it should not be a big deal for any okinawan karateka to just do it for fun.I am willing to bet Motobu would have done it.


PS: Mike,thanks for the kinds words although I trained in Muaythai,I never rreally fought under full Muaythai rules.

hectokan
17th August 2005, 12:23
Cool pictures "GOMI" is one of my favorites.

RobertRousselot
17th August 2005, 13:04
Robert,
1) The MMA scene IMO would have been something right up Motobus alley as he was a fighter at heart………I ask this question because IMO it is a valid one.Motobu was a karate practicioner who was also known for being a ruffian that liked to brawl.he even fought in a ring in Japan against a so called boxer.

2) You don't need to get your feathers all ruffled because I ask a direct and valid question.
3) The reason I asked this question is simple...for as long as I have read your posts you seem to always put Japanese karate in a bad light....why?.......
4) Are the okinawan martial artists superior in race or their fighting arts?Remember I have nothing but respect for all arts including Okinawan karate but from reading your post they "okinawan karate" seem to have this profound knowledge of the fighting arts that unfortunatley in your eyes was not passed down to the Japanese.
5) I beg to differ I think the Japanese wanted to add their own flavor to it,like they do with everything else they import.
6) Remember they had fighting arts way before karate even came to Japan.


7) Okinawa has an old wrestling art that the natives like to play and since MMA is just a game/sport (in somepeoples eyes)with no carry over benifits whatsoever for any real fighting it should not be a big deal for any okinawan karateka to just do it for fun.I am willing to bet Motobu would have done it.


PS: Mike,thanks for the kinds words although I trained in Muaythai,I never rreally fought under full Muaythai rules.

1) Yup. I agree. My own teacher used to like to “get it on” as well when he was younger and in Okinawa.
2) Sorry if it seemed that way. I wasn’t ruffled or annoyed.
3) For the most part I can’t respect a punching or kicking MA that doesn’t allow contact…..like the JKA/JKF style Karate. To me those 2 organizations typify “Japanese Karate”. You’re a judoka so could you imagine a judo match where you weren’t allowed to throw your opponent? That would be stupid right…or a boxing match where you weren’t allowed to hit the other guy.
4) Race has nothing to do with MA ability as we all should know by now. However there are still a few dojo in Okinawa that practice “the old way” of fighting full contact but those are sadly getting fewer and fewer.
5) They most likely did.
6) That’s kind of debatable.
7) He probably would have. Times change, peoples ideas and values of what’s important also change. Not that long ago (1940s/50s/60s) karateka in Okinawa would go around to other dojo and ask for a chance to spar full contact. Not as a direct challenge or insult to the other dojo but to improve themselves and their skill. Nothing like sparring someone you don’t know to improve.
Anyway, those days have gone and now it’s all “ego”, “money” and “rank” with none of the old values like “respect”, “perseverance”, “self realization” and “hard work” that were gained from getting a good butt kicking by someone that could walk the talk.

RobertRousselot
17th August 2005, 13:06
Cool pictures "GOMI" is one of my favorites.

He is a nice guy.... very shy too. I think I have heard him say about 3 sentences.
And he is fast!!.......REAL fast!

Bustillo, A.
17th August 2005, 14:33
Hector is a former Boxer and Kickboxer who has also done Muay Thai and currently sits on the Florida Boxing Commission as one of only two certified Mixed Martial Arts Judges in Florida who travels the state to judge events. I'm not quite certain of his record but I'm willing to bet it was a winning record in all three.

He is also an active Judo Yudansha under Sensei Jack Williams and an active Purple Belt in BJJ. He has also won quite a few tournaments in both venues. He was a former Yudansha in Shotokan Karate and Kenshokai Goju. I say former as he no longer practices Karate, however he was well known in the Traditional Karate circuit for his fighting.
Regards,

Mike Mitchell

Hector,

They need to update your bio in a couple of MA books.

robertmrivers
18th August 2005, 14:39
Hey gang,

IMO, after spending a week with Chosei Motobu, this thread really hits home with me and has brought a couple of interesting thoughts which we can all learn from.

First (no slight on anyone) Motobu was not a ruffian or brawler...he was like all of us when we were young and thought we knew everything... he , however, just could not seem to get rid of his reputation he developed in his youth. I think we were/ are all brawlers in our youth but it would probably annoy us all if we were always referred to as such in a less than flattering way in our senior years when we are trying to shed the actions of our youth.

As far as the boxer goes, he wasn't a guy "trying to box"...he was an international champion (I have full press photos of him...he was huge). Also, Motobu didn't just fight him...the boxer died from his injuries days later.

I believe Motobu trained and developed his martial art to fit the time period and the way very skilled people were fighting at the time. To compare it to nowadays would not even be possible. However, the deep principles of Motobu Ryu are in fact what makes MMA so good today...he simply was applying them to what the fighting style of the day demanded.

Martial Arts must evolve. I like to think Motobu Sensei would have completely supported the direction MMA has gone. Your stuff has to work in a real fight which is what it is all about. It is possible to assume that he might not agree with the attitude of certain celebrities and organizations in the sport (as many do not) or the fascination with violence that some of the youth and others are gaining from competition, but that comes with the territory. He was, afterall, an Okinawan Karate exponent. The important things in Okinawa are to keep your art to yourself and only use it to defend yourself, your family or other innocent people... not for competition. But as far as the training and the focus of MMA practitioners everywhere goes, he is probably up there smiling.

Best


Rob Rivers

Harry Cook
18th August 2005, 17:54
I'm interested in the photos of the boxing champion Motobu fought. What is his name, and what championships did he hold.?
Harry Cook

robertmrivers
18th August 2005, 19:52
Will post one tomorrow...the pic is at home...

Rob Rivers

hectokan
18th August 2005, 21:21
yeap pidi yup yuppiddy yup regardless of wether the boxer was simply just a boxing practioner or boxing champion(I doubt it).

will we have to wait for the next asteroid to hit planet earth before it happens again?or does karate get the braggin rights for a fight that happened over 75 years ago against a boxer that no one ever seems able to verify his credentials?


*just stirring the pot a bit guys*

Cam Briggs
18th August 2005, 21:43
Hector
Did you have any negative circumstances in your early karate training?


Cam Briggs

robertmrivers
18th August 2005, 22:37
Hey Guys and Gals...

Don't read so much into it... the deal is a 50 + year old karate guy beat a professional boxer (some of you sinics are funny...won't believe anything until someone actually produces a corpse of this boxer... I'll post the picture tomorrow) in an era where nobody in Japan really knew what this "karate-stuff" was.

The event was simply a screen shot of history. Professional boxer or not...karate master or not...karate was introduced to the world that day. You need to appreciate the history of it...boxers were beating most Judo people of the day every day...and up walks Motobu with a Judo gi on...surprise! Everyone there knew what Judo was and nobody knew what this "Karate" was. Whether it was the most effective Navy Seal/ CRT/ MMA/ Krav Maga/ BJJ / yadayada art ever devised is irrelevant (it wasn't). It was simply historical. Many people make the comparison "Boxing versus karate" and use this event as an example and I think it is silly. Use a modern comparison... Frank Shamrock in the ring with most professional boxers with no rules and it'll be over pretty quick.

Motobu Ryu is an old art for old times. Some of us enjoy preserving it for the sake of preserving it. But those who are even thinking one way or the other about this arguement and really getting worked up or taking it too seriously are all on the wrong wavelength completely. It is like teaching someone with a Jitte and wooden armor to disarm a SWAT Team operator with an MP-5. ...it just doesn't work. Makes for interesting conversations though...

I am completely devoted to traditional Budo. But, I agree and anyone with any high degree of training in anything has to concede that today's martial artists in the professional MMA field would overcome most masters of yore in an unarmed refereed full contact sporting match. No question. The arts have evolved...and the old masters would approve of most of it...

Rob

Robert M. Rivers

hectokan
18th August 2005, 22:38
Hector
Did you have any negative circumstances in your early karate training?


Cam Briggs



cam,

As of matter of fact I do....karate became very popular around 1973-74 with the Bruce lee craze.At the time I left judo as a kid to take up karate.

So as you can see I have always had ressenment towards karate for taking away(atleast for a while) the first love of my life.

PS:I will never forgive karate for that........LOL.

RobertRousselot
18th August 2005, 22:51
……….. It is like teaching someone with a Jitte and wooden armor to disarm a SWAT Team operator with an MP-5. ...it just doesn't work. Makes for interesting conversations though...



Or like teaching the Police to use an Okinawan tonfa…..er um I mean a “PR-24” ;)

hectokan
18th August 2005, 22:52
nice post Robert

RobertRousselot
18th August 2005, 23:05
………Motobu Ryu is an old art for old times. Some of us enjoy preserving it for the sake of preserving it. …….

I disagree.
It’s weird…the older I get and the longer I train the more I see that most things have a potential use if you understand how to use it.
New arts can be useful and old arts can also be useful….
I have met some Karateka that couldn’t use their technique in a realistic manner, and I have met many that can. I have met MMA guys that were the same way….some can, some can’t. It’s never the “arts” fault if you lose….it’s yours.

Cam Briggs
19th August 2005, 00:29
Hector,
It's ALL Good! Hell,if you have been in a particular system for a while you will eventually find a way to make it work. Even Aikido.

I'm sorry to hear that karate"ann" took you from judo"sue".

Cam Briggs

P.S. Will you ever forgive or go back to karate"ann" ?

hectokan
19th August 2005, 04:05
Hector,
It's ALL Good! Hell,if you have been in a particular system for a while you will eventually find a way to make it work. Even Aikido.

I'm sorry to hear that karate"ann" took you from judo"sue".

Cam Briggs

P.S. Will you ever forgive or go back to karate"ann" ?


Cam,

Most of the time I like to talk tongue & cheek.I do respect karate remember "it's all good". I just don't like to adhere to all of it's older training methods most of the time.Hell come to think of it I don't agree with all of judo or even all of boxing training methods either.No I don't consider myself a jack of all trades master on none but I have seen many so called life long masters of one art that don't have any real answers for situations that arise outside of their particular system.

Will I ever go back?What for?I took what is useful for me and moved on you can do this with most arts but you need to establish a very good base first and foremost or fear of running into the crapola syndrome.If someone shows me something in the future from karate that i find useful for me I will take it and try to absorb it,regardless of wether you call it karate or kakake.


Getting back on topic with Motobu,maybe Mr.rousselot can answer this.......if Japan sportified karate to the point of removing all of it's real life threatning techniques.why did some okinawans groups(Motobu included)needed to expirement with bogu equipment?weren't the older methods good enough?kata,makiwara,basics,go down to the local neighborhood bar and get into a altercation with a nobody that later as time grows it becomes an exageration tale of epic prorportions.

I mean why would Motobu along with all the other early okinawan Bogu equipment pioneers need to mess around with a sportive idea such as bogu ?I mean think about it?Sakugawa,Matsumura,Itosu never needed any sportive type bogu equipment in their life time.

Why change older methods? Simple if you don't change you die,similar to the war we are fighting in the world today with terrosim.If we don't change we die.Who knows maybe Motobus new 'SPORTIVE" bogu training methods was the key and determining factor in helping him defeat the unknown boxer.

RobertRousselot
19th August 2005, 07:48
1) Getting back on topic with Motobu,maybe Mr.rousselot can answer this.......if Japan sportified karate to the point of removing all of it's real life threatning techniques.why did some okinawans groups(Motobu included)needed to expirement with bogu equipment?weren't the older methods good enough?kata,makiwara,basics,go down to the local neighborhood bar and get into a altercation with a nobody that later as time grows it becomes an exageration tale of epic prorportions.
I mean why would Motobu along with all the other early okinawan Bogu equipment pioneers need to mess around with a sportive idea such as bogu ?I mean think about it?Sakugawa,Matsumura,Itosu never needed any sportive type bogu equipment in their life time. Why change older methods? Simple if you don't change you die,similar to the war we are fighting in the world today with terrosim.If we don't change we die.
2) Who knows maybe Motobus new 'SPORTIVE" bogu training methods was the key and determining factor in helping him defeat the unknown boxer.

1) In Motobu’s times if people wanted to test their skills they had to go get in a street fight or challenge another karateka to a match.
It may be only my opinion but I think bogu training was introduced so people could practice safer with more realism and less criminality.

2) I think his sportification stuff came after the boxer defeat. That was in 192X and the sportifing didn't come around until later.
I think the reason he beat the boxer was because of several things.
A) Karate type techniques were for the most part unknown at that time. For example they could have told the “hey this is a karate guy” and I doubt it would have registered. You could compare it to the Gracies when they first came on the seen. Nobody knew much about them and they won a lot of matches. Now everybody knows what they do and have adapted and the Gracies don’t win so much like before. Sakuraba is a good example of how people have figured out the Gracies stuff and used it against them. Sakuraba made Royce look pretty bad.
B) Motobu was a tough SOB anyway and had no qualms about kicking butt.

hectokan
19th August 2005, 13:26
1) In Motobu’s times if people wanted to test their skills they had to go get in a street fight or challenge another karateka to a match.

Reply by Hector,
Wow,since most okinawans are pretty humble to begin with I am left to wonder how often did this really happen?Did all the Okinawan teachers aprove of this attitude?It just does not seem like an effective way to maintain a consistent training routine for an art that mostly attributes it's essence to no violence unless needed.

Quoted By Robert,
It may be only my opinion but I think bogu training was introduced so people could practice safer with more realism and less criminality.

Quoted by Hector,
Wow,we finally agree.... realism is brought into the picture.

Quoted bt Robert,
2) I think his sportification stuff came after the boxer defeat. That was in 192X and the sportifing didn't come around until later.

Quoted by Hector,
Yes you are probably right,although I did find this posted on a website that indicates bogu for karate was in Japan way before the 50s and even before the Motobu/boxing exibition match.So who knows...

The history of Bogu karate the early years:
After Funakoshi opened his first full time KARATE dojo in 1922, Tokyo saw an explosion of new KARATE schools. Some KARATE students were unhappy with the way the art was being taught, especially when it came to combat. In most of the traditional schools, sparring was very controlled, and did not have any contact. In some schools there was no sparring allowed at all!
By the mid 1930’s a group of KARATE practitioners had formed a loose alliance, and trained together to develop full contact techniques. Most of these KARATE students had an extensive background in SHURI-TE. They used modified KENDO armor (BOGU) to give a degree of realism to their fighting. In 1940, this group was recognized as a new KARATE style, and KANBUKAN KARATE was born. KANBUKAN means "Korean Martial Arts Place," probably because the founder of the KANBUKAN was a Korean schoolteacher named Geka Yung who learned SHURI-TE from Kanken Toyama. Toyama was a student of Yasatsune Itosu, and he would later form the All Japan Karate Federation in 1946. Some famous KARATE men were instrumental in the early years of KANBUKAN, including:
· Hiroyasu Tamae: a student Shiroma Gusukuma and Chosen Chibana, Tamae also trained Chinese KEMPO in Beijing, China before World War Two and NAHA-TE in Okinawa.
· Hwang Kee: Hwang Kee would create his own academy when he returned to Korea in 1946 - the MOO DUK KWAN - and taught what he called T'ANG SOO DO.
· Yoon Byung-In: Yoon Byung-In disappeared during the Korean war in the 1950's only to resurface in North Korea in 1995. Two of his students went on to found two of Korea's most important styles. Lee Nam-suk founded the CHUNG MUK KWON and Park Chull-hee founded KANG DUK KWON.
· Mas Oyama: Mas Oyama, the founder of KYOKUSHINKAI KARATE, is said to have trained at the KANBUKAN. This is not surprising as Oyama was actually Korean, and is reputed to have loved full contact fighting.





Quoted by Robert,
I think the reason he beat the boxer was because of several things.
A) Karate type techniques were for the most part unknown at that time. For example they could have told the “hey this is a karate guy” and I doubt it would have registered. You could compare it to the Gracies when they first came on the seen. Nobody knew much about them and they won a lot of matches. Now everybody knows what they do and have adapted and the Gracies don’t win so much like before. Sakuraba is a good example of how people have figured out the Gracies stuff and used it against them. Sakuraba made Royce look pretty bad.
B) Motobu was a tough SOB anyway and had no qualms about kicking butt.

Quoted by Hector,
Great,so we both agree that the Gracies themselves need to evolve if they want to improve and survive.... right?Then what makes karate so different?They must also evolve in order to survive.


PS:Maybe one day I will learn to use my Quote enhancer.

robertmrivers
19th August 2005, 14:04
Great Stuff!!

This is a really good thread. In regards to "staying traditional"

I did say this :

"However, the deep principles of Motobu Ryu are in fact what makes MMA so good today...he simply was applying them to what the fighting style of the day demanded."

I am not saying "only do old style of karate just to do it..." You have to be able to apply the principles of the style to modern day tactics. This was already said , though, and I agree.

As for Bogu, how else are you going to hit each other full blast without having to go to the hospital every night. Bogu was all they had...it wasn't "sportifying" anything. One of my Sensei talked about coming home with bloody and broken fists from hitting the mask all night long... pretty cool.

Also, you can't lump Motobu in with all of the others who were experimenting with Bogu. He himself didn't use it. His students experimented with it very little. We've got Motobu urban legends getting mixed up with the truth. Its hard to distinguish truth from myth after 60+ years of development...

However, a student of Motobu, Hironori Ohtsuka, founder of Wado Ryu, really made a mark by putting competitive kumite on the map...and it wasn't this tap crap. It was very strong for what it was. I wouldn't want to get hit by them.

Remember, sparring in traditional Okinawan dojo and many Japanese dojo is pretty hard core...and they don't use Bogu anymore. Look at the Uechi Ryu, Goju Ryu and while most know about Kyokushin, there is also a style on Okinawa called Ryuseikan and they are very hard core. In fact, if some will remember, kumite was taken out of the Okinawan World Tournament for a while because someone was killed during the taikai. No gloves or pads and they hit hard. If they regularly grappled they would be fit for competition in most MMA tournaments.

They have all evolved, but in Okinawa especially they have instilled in their regular training practices the traditions that have been handed down for generations. Many call it a waste of time if it doesn't work, but for others it is a way of preserving history. But, things have to evolve. I'll keep the "archaic traditions" though... you never know what you're going to learn from them.

Best

Rob Rivers

RobertRousselot
19th August 2005, 14:08
Quoted by Hector,
1) Great,so we both agree that the Gracies themselves need to evolve if they want to improve and survive.... right?Then what makes karate so different?
2) They must also evolve in order to survive.
PS:Maybe one day I will learn to use my Quote enhancer.

1) They need to do something because people are reading them like a book these days. For example Royce used to like to lay on his back and let people try to take him out….however enough people have figured out that’s not how you beat him and have adapted.
2) That depends. If I meet someone in the street that doesn’t know me he won’t have any prior knowledge about me as in the case of Royce G above. He won’t know what techniques I prefer or am good at. He won’t even know if I have trained or not. If I want to go into the ring and sport fight that way then yes it’s better to evolve so your opponent won’t know what to expect even if he has watched your fight tape a 100 times.

RobertRousselot
19th August 2005, 14:19
Great Stuff!!

1) As for Bogu, how else are you going to hit each other full blast without having to go to the hospital every night. Bogu was all they had...it wasn't "sportifying" anything.
2) Also, you can't lump Motobu in with all of the others who were experimenting with Bogu. He himself didn't use it. His students experimented with it very little. We've got Motobu urban legends getting mixed up with the truth. Its hard to distinguish truth from myth after 60+ years of development...
3) Remember, sparring in traditional Okinawan dojo and many Japanese dojo is pretty hard core...and they don't use Bogu anymore.
4) Look at the Uechi Ryu, Goju Ryu and while most know about Kyokushin, there is also a style on Okinawa called Ryuseikan and they are very hard core.
5) In fact, if some will remember, kumite was taken out of the Okinawan World Tournament for a while because someone was killed during the taikai. No gloves or pads and they hit hard. If they regularly grappled they would be fit for competition in most MMA tournaments.


1) This is what I was eluding to. I have also stated this on a different thread about bogu.
2) I believe his student Konishi was one of the first guys from his dojo to try and make some sort of bogu.
3) I beg to differ on this point. I have seen countless dojo in Japan and Okinawa and for the most part they don’t make contact. In fact they even wear bubble masks as a safety precaution in some tippy tap tournaments. Look up Super safe products on google.
4) There is an Uechi group that train next to us and asked if I wanted to attend their tournament last month. They wear face masks (not bogu) and I asked if I can hit to the head….they said no and explained the rules….basically JKA type rules. So I didn’t go to the tournament.
5) Ya need to check your facts on this one. My friend competed in that tournament and it followed JKA type rules…(no contact) ..the guy died because of an accidental blow to the head.

Bustillo, A.
19th August 2005, 14:21
Does okinawan karate have a Motobu bad !!! of today willing to step into the MMA rings of Japan? Or was the Motobu fight with a boxer eons ago all she wrote ?
_________________________________________
(I have full press photos of him...he was huge). Also, Motobu didn't just fight him...the boxer died from his injuries days later.
Best
Rob Rivers
__________________


Looking forward to the full press photos and info on the Motobu vs champion Boxer(?) fight. But, whatever happened to the origianl question???

RobertRousselot
19th August 2005, 14:28
Looking forward to the pics and info on the Motobu vs champion Boxer(?) fight. But, whatever happened to the origianl question???


The only "photos" I have seen are these drawings that mistakenly show Funakoshi as the fighter.......I have yet to see a "Kodak Moment" of that fight but would love to since it would extremely rare.

Bustillo, A.
19th August 2005, 14:31
The only "photos" I have seen are these drawings that mistakenly show Funakoshi as the fighter.......I have yet to see a "Kodak Moment" of that fight but would love to since it would extremely rare.

Right, I agree, that's all I've seen as well.
He said he had full press photos ...we'll see. I certainly hope those drawings aren't what he means.

Cam Briggs
19th August 2005, 14:55
Can anyone post the rules of this famous bout? ( Motobu's)

Hector, as a MMA judge in Florida, can you please post the rules of an MMA event.

Cam Briggs

Bustillo, A.
19th August 2005, 15:07
Hector, as a MMA judge in Florida, can you please post the rules of an MMA event.

Cam Briggs

Haven't you seen a UFC or a Pride event?
BTW, there is a UFC Sat. , Aug 20th.

robertmrivers
19th August 2005, 15:13
3) I beg to differ on this point. I have seen countless dojo in Japan and Okinawa and for the most part they don’t make contact. In fact they even wear bubble masks as a safety precaution in some tippy tap tournaments. Look up Super safe products on google.

Not all dojo are the same...you have to look for the good ones just like in America. It is like anything...commercialism. Okinawa is not exempt. But the old school guys are still there...they simply don't have 300 students in the dojo so you never see their advertisments...watch "The Three Original Styles of Okinawan Karate". You get to see a small example of how some of them train. But I can't competely disagree with you that most schools anywhere have gone the way of the McDojo...

4) There is an Uechi group that train next to us and asked if I wanted to attend their tournament last month. They wear face masks (not bogu) and I asked if I can hit to the head….they said no and explained the rules….basically JKA type rules. So I didn’t go to the tournament.

Typical...but not old school Uechi Ryu...again you have to look for them. Sorry for your bad experience.

5) Ya need to check your facts on this one. My friend competed in that tournament and it followed JKA type rules…(no contact) ..the guy died because of an accidental blow to the head.

All I said was someone died at the tournament. Don't know what facts I need to check.

As for the original question...no, there are no Motobu bad @$% that would step in the ring.

As for the photos...you all are going to owe me a beer for this ;) I get off at 2PM and will send them when I get home. They are not the drawings from "Kingu" magazine. It is what amounts to a press photo/ head shot of the boxer posing with his medals...

Best

Rob Rivers

hectokan
19th August 2005, 15:33
Can anyone post the rules of this famous bout? ( Motobu's)

Hector, as a MMA judge in Florida, can you please post the rules of an MMA event.

Cam Briggs


Cam,

As far I know Most all state commisions have adobted the NJ state commision unified rules,including Las vegas.

http://www.state.nj.us/lps/sacb/docs/martial.htm


Some rules may have been updated since then but the least amount of rules governing MMA can be found in places like Brazil,some europeon countries and Japan.

In Japan the MMA organizations can usually get away with less rules like kicking a downed opponent,etc.

ZachZinn
19th August 2005, 15:57
Hi guys, first of all; let me say, all the threads i've read on e-budo in the TMA vs. MMA vein have given me a real respect for mma fighters, they are damn skilled guys. That said, i've known lots of skilled martial artists that would not go near an NHB event, for a variety of valid (and invalid) reasons. So basically what I want to ask the NHB guys is: Why does it matter that there is no Motobu-type to do this today? Why do you think he would care about this? Also, there have been some Karate guys, like Joe Pomfret who have done fine once they had the additional groundfighting specialization required for NHB. So, why are you asking this? Do you honestly want someone to do this? Do you think Karate 'sucks' and your'e calling it's bluff? Do you just think it's inferior to 'MMA' methods? I would argue all martial arts are MMA if so, please explain your position in more detail.

hectokan
19th August 2005, 16:00
Haven't you seen a UFC or a Pride event?
BTW, there is a UFC Sat. , Aug 20th.



Antonio,
Yes it is Sat and being that you are reffered to as the "BIG KAHUNA your invited for the gathering as always.A small sample in the house that night would include the ex-shorin-ryu man turned best bouncer of year.We got goju guys all over the place,not to mention the judo and jiujitsu afficionados.

Looking foward to it,who's says I can't get along with karate guys?

hectokan
19th August 2005, 16:39
Hi guys, first of all; let me say, all the threads i've read on e-budo in the TMA vs. MMA vein have given me a real respect for mma fighters, they are damn skilled guys. That said, i've known lots of skilled martial artists that would not go near an NHB event, for a variety of valid (and invalid) reasons. So basically what I want to ask the NHB guys is: Why does it matter that there is no Motobu-type to do this today? Why do you think he would care about this? Also, there have been some Karate guys, like Joe Pomfret who have done fine once they had the additional groundfighting specialization required for NHB. So, why are you asking this? Do you honestly want someone to do this? Do you think Karate 'sucks' and your'e calling it's bluff? Do you just think it's inferior to 'MMA' methods? I would argue all martial arts are MMA if so, please explain your position in more detail.

Zach,

First of all great Questions and yes there are some karate guys that have made the transition Bas rutten comes to mind as he has done well in the MMA scene.Although most would not consider Bas a traditionalist but that's besides the point.I think that most anyone that is able to early on in their career learn the offensive strategies or atleast counters to the most needed disciplines of the sport like wreslting,jiujitsu,Boxing,muaythai,etc, can always adapt.

I think that to answer all your questions you would have to put yourself in the place of a MMA eclectic practicioner that might not practice karate at all or anymore in the traditional sense and then listen to what he has to hear most of the time from a traditional perspective.


I for one would be a rich man if a had a nickel for everytime some "thinksheknowsitall" tells me that a MMA sport or even the training like it has no transfer skills whatsover once it carrys over into the real streets.ofcourse as stupid as I always am,I can't see how it cannot help you to some extent but that's just me.

Granted the streets is a different animal and no I don't plan on playing in my guard for 25 minutes until I eventually hook in my Omoplata(a submission)for a tap.Only to release it so that he can attack me again. LOL.

I do believe that the realism that is brought into the MMA scene has a lot of carry over benifits that develop certain skills that might come into play that cannot be learned any other way.

OH and no I don't believe you have to be a "Prizefighter" to discover and train effectivly with this realistic aproach.

Bustillo, A.
19th August 2005, 16:48
Hi guys, I would argue all martial arts are MMA if so, .

Not sure what you mean there, please elaborate on your comment about "...all martial artist are MMA....".

ZachZinn
19th August 2005, 17:32
Zach,

First of all great Questions and yes there are some karate guys that have made the transition Bas rutten comes to mind as he has done well in the MMA scene.Although most would not consider Bas a traditionalist but that's besides the point.I think that most anyone that is able to early on in their career learn the offensive strategies or atleast counters to the most needed disciplines of the sport like wreslting,jiujitsu,Boxing,muaythai,etc, can always adapt....

IMO all MA's are always adapting, the ones that don't are relegated to the dust bin, but this is up to the practitioners, at base a given MA is just a series of proscribed methods and principles, which quite often seem more similar than not.


I think that to answer all your questions you would have to put yourself in the place of a MMA eclectic practicioner that might not practice karate at all or anymore in the traditional sense and then listen to what he has to hear most of the time from a traditional perspective...

Yeah I totally can see this, like I said, my perspective has changed, I have a huge amount of respect for these guys, though im still bothered by the ones who seem in it for ego. As martial artists though, alot are top notch in my book now, it'd be insane to say it has no transfer to real fighting, i'd crap my pants if I had to fight a real NHB guy lol, note that i'd distinguish an actual NHB fighter from a 15 year old on a throw down video from Bull shi do.


I for one would be a rich man if a had a nickel for everytime some "thinksheknowsitall" tells me that a MMA sport or even the training like it has no transfer skills whatsover once it carrys over into the real streets.ofcourse as stupid as I always am,I can't see how it cannot help you to some extent but that's just me.

Granted the streets is a different animal and no I don't plan on playing in my guard for 25 minutes until I eventually hook in my Omoplata(a submission)for a tap.Only to release it so that he can attack me again. LOL.

I do believe that the realism that is brought into the MMA scene has a lot of carry over benifits that develop certain skills that might come into play that cannot be learned any other way.

OH and no I don't believe you have to be a "Prizefighter" to discover and train effectivly with this realistic aproach.

I agree 100%, my current teacher focuses hugely on using resistant opponents for almost everything, I didn't realize the difference until I started training with him. This is one criticism I will agree with about some (but certainly not all) TMA practitioners.

robertmrivers
19th August 2005, 19:36
Here is the picture of the boxer. Had to compress it pretty good to make it viewable...

Rob Rivers

Maddog Mitchell
19th August 2005, 20:06
Robert,

I guess I was under the impression you had pictures from the bout. That picture has been circulating for some time now.

Thanks for posting the pic, and great discussion guys.

Mike Mitchell

Soke Bouncer Ryu

Cam Briggs
19th August 2005, 23:11
Hector,
Thanks for posting the rules. MMA in the U.S. is a regulated sport with rules and weight classes. A referee and a ringside physician.Duration of rounds and mandatory groin prtection,mouth guards,hand wraps/bandages and gloves. Specific construction of a padded arena with a vinyl chain link fence.
Etc..Etc..
Hector the commission's section 13:46-24A.15 on fouls is extensive. You are eliminating the karate man's arsenal. The rules...the rules...the rules...
This sport and by the way a GREAT sport can never compare to a street fight anywhere in the World.

Would the Karate man take up your challenge? Who knows...

Thank you Hector.
It's All Good.

Bustillo, Yes I have seen every UFC,PRIDE,Hook-n-Shoot,King of Cage and AFC events to date.



Cam Briggs

RobertRousselot
19th August 2005, 23:27
1) Not all dojo are the same...you have to look for the good ones just like in America. It is like anything...commercialism. Okinawa is not exempt. But the old school guys are still there...they simply don't have 300 students in the dojo so you never see their advertisments...watch "The Three Original Styles of Okinawan Karate". You get to see a small example of how some of them train. But I can't competely disagree with you that most schools anywhere have gone the way of the McDojo...

2) Typical...but not old school Uechi Ryu...again you have to look for them. Sorry for your bad experience.

All I said was someone died at the tournament. Don't know what facts I need to check.

As for the original question...no, there are no Motobu bad @$% that would step in the ring.

As for the photos...you all are going to owe me a beer for this ;) I get off at 2PM and will send them when I get home. They are not the drawings from "Kingu" magazine. It is what amounts to a press photo/ head shot of the boxer posing with his medals...

Best

Rob Rivers

1) I think you are preaching to Noah about the flood here. Over the past 17 years of living in Japan I have been to/seen countless dojo in Okinawa.
2) My former business partner was a 6th dan under Kanbun Uechi….
3) You said the fighting was “hardcore” when in actual fact it was nothing more than JKA tippy-tap rules


“there is also a style on Okinawa called Ryuseikan and they are very hard core. In fact, if some will remember, kumite was taken out of the Okinawan World Tournament for a while because someone was killed during the taikai.1) No gloves or pads and they hit hard.2) If they regularly grappled they would be fit for competition in most MMA tournaments.”
1) They weren’t allowed to make contact so I am wondering how they could “hit hard”.
2) No, I have no doubt they would get their butts kicked by MMA guys.

Cam Briggs
20th August 2005, 00:02
Just a quick note guys:
The original name was Kanbukan. Kanbukan "Korean martial arts place". The founder of Kanbukan was a Korean school teacher and his name was Geka Yung. He founded this in Tokyo, Japan around 1940. He was the first head of the school to become known later as RENBUKAI "Training Martial Arts Association". The dojo was a small gym with different martial artist went to practice and exchange thoughts.

Many of you old timers may remember Ronald Lee Marchini, a well known karate fighter of the 60's and 70's and Renbukai stylist. Renbukai is one of several styles in Japan that practice fighting full contact with protective gear.

Cam Briggs

RobertRousselot
20th August 2005, 00:09
Just a quick note guys:
The original name was Kanbukan. Kanbukan "Korean martial arts place". The founder of Kanbukan was a Korean school teacher and his name was Geka Yung. He founded this in Tokyo, Japan around 1940. He was the first head of the school to become known later as RENBUKAI "Training Martial Arts Association". The dojo was a small gym with different martial artist went to practice and exchange thoughts.

Many of you old timers may remember Ronald Lee Marchini, a well known karate fighter of the 60's and 70's and Renbukai stylist. Renbukai is one of several styles in Japan that practice fighting full contact with protective gear.

Cam Briggs


Yup, I remember Ron and a book on weight training in the MAs....I think Leo Fong was also in it as well.
Renbukai is not extremely well known in Japan but I have seen some of their tournaments.
Here is the kind of bogu they wear.

hectokan
20th August 2005, 00:24
Cam,

Think about this for a second the next time you complain about the rules of MMA.These rules have to be standarized for the well being and protection of all it's fighters,along with the responsibilty of trying to keep what can be interpreted as a uncivilized act from becoming barbaric..Now with that said,There is still no karate tournament in the world or even most sparring class formats that I know of that allows more pure karate techniques than a MMA competition.


Here is a list of some real karate techniques & rules allowed in MMA that are not allowed in the majority of all karate competitions.

1)Pulling,grabbing,throwing(remember hidden bunkai)
2)"Full force"aplication of strikes consisting of punches and kicks(not allowed in most karate tourneys).
3)No stopping the action ever to award any type of point(doesn't happen in the streets either)
4)Knee strikes another karate techniques forbidden in most classes and tourneys.
5)elbow strikes same here.

In other words everything that is done at any karate tournament in the world can be done in MMA and then much,much more.So if anything the karate guy should have more of his so called weapons available to be used.Now,we can sit here and complain about not having the eyepokes,fishooks and gouging allowed but to me those techniques are a given,besides if it were to come down to that some of these characters in MMA would be my prime candidates for a healthy administration of those deadly techniques without even blinking an eye.

It's clear to me what Motobu would have thought about MMA.

Cam Briggs
20th August 2005, 01:43
Hector...What is the best style? Who is the best teacher? Who has the best school? I mean, I read it in all the martial arts magazines the best style is this... the best school is here... the best teacher is so and so...
BEST for what? Non-contact,Point,Knockdown Karate,San Shou, WUKO,Boxing,Kickboxing,Muay Thai,Olympic Tae Kwon Do,Submission Grappling,BJJ,Judo,Wrestling,Greco-Roman,Sambo,MMA etc.Their has to be a best style? Best for something...BEST FOR WHAT?The rules and regulations DICTATE the training methods.Simple

MMA is a fantastic sport.Thats it,a sport.Can you transfer those skills learned in MMA for practical real World EMPTY HAND self protection. Absolutely,without question. The martial arts are about human energy transfer and understanding body movement.A bouncer,security guard,police officer,correctional officer,soldier(individuals that experience violence on a daily level) etc.will tell you that an MMA event is a sport. A street fight is not a sport.
Hector ponder on this: How would an MMA stylist do in a Boxing event? How would he do in a Olympic Taekwon Do event? How would he do in a fullcontact Karate match? In a Judo contest?

The rules and regulations dictate the training methods.

Cam Briggs

Cam Briggs
20th August 2005, 01:54
Robert, yes, an excellent book.

Cam Briggs

Maddog Mitchell
20th August 2005, 10:19
Cam,

I can tell you this from over 20 years of Karate and being a Bouncer in Miami that MMA is more than just a sport and offers you more for a street fight than Karate. Lets be honest in MMA you have several ranges of fighting as in Karate but with MMA you need to be proficient in all from grappling, to throwing, to kicking and punching. Yes you can't play your guard on cement, been there done that, but you have many useful techniques alot more than in Karate. Also with some of the older Ryuha you have time in grade and a certain syllabus you're following. You take a guy who does MMA for three months and put the same guy doing Karate for three months I'm sure he'll be able to say there's more variety in MMA.

Now on the flip side I've used many Karate waza in various situations. Bottom line it's all depending on what you want to get out of your training.


BTW Cam who do you train with in jacksonville? I lived up there for 6 years while in the Navy.

Regards,

Mike Mitchell

Cam Briggs
20th August 2005, 15:36
Mike we have a small study group. Around the Amelia city vicinity. I have lived here for about 2 years.In Dec. I will be moving up North again.
Were you in Mayport Naval Air Station or Jacksonville Naval Air Station?

Cam Briggs

Maddog Mitchell
20th August 2005, 19:04
Cam,

Ok I'll show my age I was at Cecil Field NAS with the A7 squadron VA-37. I then went to VR-58 at NAS Jacksonville but that was in 90 prior to Desert Storm.

Regards,

Mike Mitchell

Cam Briggs
20th August 2005, 19:11
Mike, thank you for serving my country. Your not that old. Besafe in those wild clubs down there.

Cam Briggs

hectokan
21st August 2005, 18:40
Hector...What is the best style? Who is the best teacher? Who has the best school? I mean, I read it in all the martial arts magazines the best style is this... the best school is here... the best teacher is so and so...

Cam Briggs


The russian psychic is the best.

Maddog Mitchell
21st August 2005, 18:44
Rick Hernandez has a pretty decent knife fighting system.

Regards,

Mike Mitchell

Cam Briggs
22nd August 2005, 04:47
Hector, your karate guy is the current UFC light heavyweight champion. Black belt in Koei kan karate and Chinese Hawaiian kempo. Chuck Liddell.

Mike, don't know who he is. Is he in Jacksonville?

Anybody with more info on the Motobu fight?

Cam Briggs

hectokan
22nd August 2005, 11:11
Hector, your karate guy is the current UFC light heavyweight champion. Black belt in Koei kan karate and Chinese Hawaiian kempo. Chuck Liddell.

Cam Briggs

Hi cam,

Yes, although Chuck Is a black belt in karate just as Bas rutten is,they both train almost exlusively with kickboxing methods in order to prepare for the striking portion of their fights.

ZachZinn
22nd August 2005, 16:53
Hi cam,

Yes, although Chuck Is a black belt in karate just as Bas rutten is,they both train almost exlusively with kickboxing methods in order to prepare for the striking portion of their fights.

What are "kickboxing methods", you mean they simply fight for training? Please elaborate, I think youre stereotyping what is 'karate training' and what is not, there is a HUGE range here. What is the point of this discussion anyway, are we just going to keep invalidating eachother? You seem really intent on pigeonholing all training of 'Karate' then invalidating it Hector, same could be said for Mike; if i'm missing something let me know. Not trying to be confrontational, but if you think karate training is worthless then be honest about it, if not than please clarify what this kind of thing means.

ZachZinn
22nd August 2005, 17:16
Anyway, sorry if this last post comes off as me being defensive, it's not; i've just been in too many "mine's better' discussions between tma and mma folks; and think it's important to figure out where one another stand.

robertmrivers
22nd August 2005, 18:55
Hope everyone had a good weekend...just one last post...

1) They weren’t allowed to make contact so I am wondering how they could “hit hard”.

IE: Ryuseikan...different dojo have different rules for fighting. Not everyone attends the same types of tournaments and some just keep the kumite in the dojo under their own rules. Ryu Sei Kan is essentially Okinawan Kyokushin...they don't tippy tap... and they only fight in full contact rules... similar to Kyokushin. Not saying how good they are one way or the other compared to MMA, but, they fight full contact.

As for TMA vs. MMA... depends on the school. I don't know how many times I have to say this...I am a TMA guy...but I concur the average MMA student will beat the average TMA student in a MMA match... There are, however, exceptions on either end of the spectrum. Nobody can argue with the need to have a grappling curriculum in order to compete...and TMA simply have a different focus.

Best

Rob

Maddog Mitchell
22nd August 2005, 19:48
Zach,

I still have and train with quite a few traditional karate instruments. I have chishi, nigiri game, sonobaku and three different types of makiwara as well as tetsu geta. No one will ever get me to stop training with these even if something is better or more useful I'd still add it into the above elements of my training. However that is incorporated in my heavy bag and AB band training as well.

It's just in my opinion MMA offers a better concept of all around fighting than Karate. I'm not putting down Karate in any way shape or form it's just my opinion. When some of the Bouncers want to train with me, they don't wanna learn kata, or practice kihon gyaku zuki with propper hikite so they can learn to generate power from their hips, these guys need to learn how to throw it down and MMA offers that IMO on a faster level that Traditional Karate. No time to analyze Kata and search for a potential technique.

Regards,

Mike Mitchell

ZachZinn
22nd August 2005, 20:27
Zach,

I still have and train with quite a few traditional karate instruments. I have chishi, nigiri game, sonobaku and three different types of makiwara as well as tetsu geta. No one will ever get me to stop training with these even if something is better or more useful I'd still add it into the above elements of my training. However that is incorporated in my heavy bag and AB band training as well.

It's just in my opinion MMA offers a better concept of all around fighting than Karate. I'm not putting down Karate in any way shape or form it's just my opinion. When some of the Bouncers want to train with me, they don't wanna learn kata, or practice kihon gyaku zuki with propper hikite so they can learn to generate power from their hips, these guys need to learn how to throw it down and MMA offers that IMO on a faster level that Traditional Karate. No time to analyze Kata and search for a potential technique.

Regards,

Mike Mitchell


Ah okay, this I'd have to agree with, it's funny when my friends have asked what I think is a good art to learn to quickly develop self defense skills I usually say either boxing or Judo, karate definitely is not the fast track, I agree there. I love my heavy bag, are there alot of Karate guys you know that only train with traditional implements? just asking as this hasn't been my own experience. MMA definitely offers what you talk about in a shorter time frame. I will say though, alot of what i've heard people describe as training in MMA doesn't sound that much different from some Karate classes, i.e. you go in, decide whether you want to work on drills, kata, bag, spar, etc, and the enviroment is 'freer', there are some dojo that operate in a similar fashion, though usually only after the 'beginner' level. Also I hear alot of people talking about how you don't learn grappling in karate, you certainly don't learn groundfighting in detail no, but a good deal of my Goju training has been learning 'clinch' and takedown techniques, etc, and defenses against the same.

RobertRousselot
22nd August 2005, 21:24
1) They weren’t allowed to make contact so I am wondering how they could “hit hard”.

IE: Ryuseikan...different dojo have different rules for fighting. Not everyone attends the same types of tournaments and some just keep the kumite in the dojo under their own rules. Ryu Sei Kan is essentially Okinawan Kyokushin...they don't tippy tap... and they only fight in full contact rules... similar to Kyokushin. Not saying how good they are one way or the other compared to MMA, but, they fight full contact.



I think you need to calm down and actually read what you have written and I have replied to. You said something about them and the Okinawan Tournament…….my point was that tournament forbid contact therefore they could not have “hit hard”

hectokan
22nd August 2005, 22:14
What are "kickboxing methods", you mean they simply fight for training? Please elaborate, I think youre stereotyping what is 'karate training' and what is not, there is a HUGE range here. What is the point of this discussion anyway, are we just going to keep invalidating eachother? You seem really intent on pigeonholing all training of 'Karate' then invalidating it Hector, same could be said for Mike; if i'm missing something let me know. Not trying to be confrontational, but if you think karate training is worthless then be honest about it, if not than please clarify what this kind of thing means.

Hi zach,

I believe Mr.Briggs originally was trying to make some sort of connection between Chuck liddel(UFC champion)being a karate practioner and maybe that having something to do with his succes in the cage or the ring.I tried to point out to him without stepping on anybodies toes around here that some practicioners could have had a previous Karate background but that original training has nothing to do with his succes in the ring today.


If we go back in time when Motobu supposedly fought the champion boxer.He "Motobu" trained specifically in karate techniques and won using predominently karate training methods.Therefore if he did win that match then the credit goes to the man himself first and foremost but the training methods and the art that he demonstrated in that match are always given much respect.This is why the Gracies and specifically Gracie jiujitsu became so popular.

Unfortunatley for pure karate practicioners in the world of the ring and cage sports of today with the exception of some of the kyokushin groups are just not having any success with transferring those technical skills very well for the sport of the ring.again we are having a friendly debate and I by no means mean to imply that karate is inferior.Wether karate was meant for real self defense and not for sport is irrevelent in trying to make this point.I don't mean to say this as a putdown in anyway but maybe it's skills set were just not meant for the ring or combat cage sports,as they just don't transfer over very well for them.

To answer your questions about training methods,by in large very few if any karate practicioners are having any type success in the ring or in the cage the way Motobu supposedly did using pure karate techniques and it's original karate training methods.The methods are easy to distinguish and differentiate from karate.The kickboxer/mma fighter mostly trains 24/7 using a boxing ring,16oz gloves,headgear for sparring,heavy bags,thai pads,mitts,speed bags, jump rope and shadowboxing exclusivley for striking.


So if a fighter might have originally trained in karate but specifically trains today and every day preparing for his fight using the routine mentioned above.I feel quite confident in saying,especially here on E-budo(the home of the karate historians)and the okinawan unarmed martial arts section of all places,that karate he is not practicing.

ZachZinn
22nd August 2005, 23:15
I believe Mr.Briggs originally was trying to make some sort of connection between Chuck liddel(UFC champion)being a karate practioner and maybe that having something to do with his succes in the cage or the ring.I tried to point out to him without stepping on anybodies toes around here that some practicioners could have had a previous Karate background but that original training has nothing to do with his succes in the ring today.

Hmmm, I think your drawing a distinction here where it's impossible to do so, if someone trains in Karate for say 10 years, they will have certain techniques and principles pretty ingrained, unless they go through 'untraining' everything they learned. What do you think of Joe Pomfret? I don't follow NHB closely at all, but he seemed pretty decent to me, does he fight anymore? Anyway, I think all he trained in was Uechi-Ryu and BJJ right? If you watch him fight, alot of his movements are 'karate like' for lack of a better term. Of course no one can go from 'normal' Karate training straight to the ring and hope for success, and I would think it would be tremendously stupid to try.


If we go back in time when Motobu supposedly fought the champion boxer.He "Motobu" trained specifically in karate techniques and won using predominently karate training methods.Therefore if he did win that match then the credit goes to the man himself first and foremost but the training methods and the art that he demonstrated in that match are always given much respect.This is why the Gracies and specifically Gracie jiujitsu became so popular.

Unfortunatley for pure karate practicioners in the world of the ring and cage sports of today with the exception of some of the kyokushin groups are just not having any success with transferring those technical skills very well for the sport of the ring.again we are having a friendly debate and I by no means mean to imply that karate is inferior.Wether karate was meant for real self defense and not for sport is irrevelent in trying to make this point.I don't mean to say this as a putdown in anyway but maybe it's skills set were just not meant for the ring or combat cage sports,as they just don't transfer over very well for them.


Hmm, i've seen alot of kickboxers who trained Kyokushin, again you're trying to present methodology and 'style' as one thing.... In fact i've seen enough fights (granted old ones) where the competitors trained karate to say it was probably at least a part of their arsenal, things you've train(ed) in don't just 'go away' when you start training something else, or when you amp up your regimen for professional bouts do they?



To answer your questions about training methods,by in large very few if any karate practicioners are having any type success in the ring or in the cage the way Motobu supposedly did using pure karate techniques and it's original karate training methods.The methods are easy to distinguish and differentiate from karate.The kickboxer/mma fighter mostly trains 24/7 using a boxing ring,16oz gloves,headgear for sparring,heavy bags,thai pads,mitts,speed bags, jump rope and shadowboxing exclusivley for striking.


What on earth is 'pure karate techniques'? If anyone goes into the ring -or- a fight trying to execute a perfect gyaku-tsuki from a zenkutsu stance on another fighter they're going to get layed out lol! Alot of the methods you describe are used in some karate dojo, everyone should do some form of 'shadowboxing' I would think.

So if a fighter might have originally trained in karate but specifically trains today and every day preparing for his fight using the routine mentioned above.I feel quite confident in saying,especially here on E-budo(the home of the karate historians)and the okinawan unarmed martial arts section of all places,that karate he is not practicing.

I disagree strongly, what you describe above is training specifically to be a professional fighter, two different things, that said, when I see a Karate class that spends all their time doing kata in a line never learning or doing techniques on eachother, or honing said techniques, I feel there is something missing. My first dojo was like this, and I really see the difference now, however that does nothing to invalidate karate as a martial art on the whole.
I would think anytime someone makes the jump to being a professional fighter they have to change their training immensely, whatever art they practiced previously; but this doesn't mean their previous training ceased to exist, does it?

hectokan
23rd August 2005, 02:09
Yes,I agree unlearning techniques that are not really condusive for ring fighting is not easy,especially the ones ingrained from years of previous karate training

One of the reasons why the style of kyokushin is more succesful for contact ring sports than other karate styles is because their unleanring curve is less dramatic.In other words they have less unlearning to do so that specific ring techniques that are required are easier to attain for success.

What on earth is 'pure karate techniques'?

I don't know maybe somebody else can answer that better than me.All I know is that if I were to describe the mechanics of the boxing Jab,the straight right hand and the hook,I would think that this detailed description would not be classified under the term karate.

All I am saying is that in order to reach the higher levels of any ring sport,the older previous training routines should cease to exist while you focus in on the specific proven ring techniques of the sport.We should both agree that the older techniques from the art of karate were not designed for ring sport effeciency.....or were they?

ZachZinn
23rd August 2005, 04:56
Yes,I agree unlearning techniques that are not really condusive for ring fighting is not easy,especially the ones ingrained from years of previous karate training

One of the reasons why the style of kyokushin is more succesful for contact ring sports than other karate styles is because their unleanring curve is less dramatic.In other words they have less unlearning to do so that specific ring techniques that are required are easier to attain for success.

What on earth is 'pure karate techniques'?

I don't know maybe somebody else can answer that better than me.All I know is that if I were to describe the mechanics of the boxing Jab,the straight right hand and the hook,I would think that this detailed description would not be classified under the term karate.

Do you think we all would punch from 'the chamber' in real life? That's for teaching proper form, and in bunkai 'the chamber' isn't a chamber at all, as far as i've been taught, I was taught hooks and jabs also, and they are 'in karate' IMO, I haven't seen many schools I thought much of that only taught seiken punch from one position, and again, I really think this sort of thing is indicative of the beginner/basic level karate training before you start 'putting it together' for yourself, but that's just my opinion, which is admittedly limited to what little i've seen.



All I am saying is that in order to reach the higher levels of any ring sport,the older previous training routines should cease to exist while you focus in on the specific proven ring techniques of the sport.We should both agree that the older techniques from the art of karate were not designed for ring sport effeciency.....or were they?

They could be if you wanted them to, is my feeling. But yes, obviously training for the ring is a specialized pursuit. What is your karate background again? Not trying to get inflammatory but your definition of Karate is different from my own and i'd like to know for comparision.

hectokan
23rd August 2005, 13:30
Quoted by Zach,
Do you think we all would punch from 'the chamber' in real life?

Quoted by Hector,
I don't know you could if you trained it thousands upon thousands of times.I know it happened to me.


Quoted by Zach,
That's for teaching proper form, and in bunkai 'the chamber' isn't a chamber at all, as far as i've been taught, I was taught hooks and jabs also, and they are 'in karate' IMO,

Quoted by Hector,
The conversation if I remember correctly is about how karate techniques can transfer to the ring for success and I can honeslty say that chambering is not proper form for the ring.If you ingrain it in your motor skills for many years it will be a terrible habbit to break.

As far as hooks and jabs being in karate they are similar but not the same as boxing and without putting either of them down,they both take a very long time to master so mastering one does not nessescarily mean you have mastered them all.what experience do you have with boxing that makes you believe they are the same?what style of karate do you train in that teach them like they do in boxing?


Quoted by Zach,
They could be if you wanted them to, is my feeling. But yes, obviously training for the ring is a specialized pursuit. What is your karate background again? Not trying to get inflammatory but your definition of Karate is different from my own and i'd like to know for comparision.

Quoted by Hector,
My only training in karate was really about 10 years of shotokan study.I know that is pretty much a beginners level for karate but for what it's worth I have also been in and around the karate scene for well over 30 years.without any boasting about myself,I was fortunate enough to be able to compete in karate tournaments all over the USA and around the world in places like England,Japan and south america.I also have trained and competed in boxing kickboxing,judo and BJJ.

So I feel that I can make a good qualified judgment when comparing the Jab,Hook and straight right hand of boxing and stating that it is not the same as the techniques found in karate.If by any chance all of the sudden they are the same then somebody has been seriously crosstraining.

ZachZinn
23rd August 2005, 14:52
As far as hooks and jabs being in karate they are similar but not the same as boxing and without putting either of them down,they both take a very long time to master so mastering one does not nessescarily mean you have mastered them all.what experience do you have with boxing that makes you believe they are the same?what style of karate do you train in that teach them like they do in boxing?.

I never said they were 'like boxing', where did you get that from? I have no boxing experience, I have however watched boxer throw said techniques and there are certainly differences, the point I was making is that such techniques are not foreign to karate, which you know. I train in Goju Ryu, as far as I know our curricullum is a blend of Jundokan and Shoreikan stuff.



My only training in karate was really about 10 years of shotokan study.I know that is pretty much a beginners level for karate but for what it's worth I have also been in and around the karate scene for well over 30 years.without any boasting about myself,I was fortunate enough to be able to compete in karate tournaments all over the USA and around the world in places like England,Japan and south america.I also have trained and competed in boxing kickboxing,judo and BJJ.


So I feel that I can make a good qualified judgment when comparing the Jab,Hook and straight right hand of boxing and stating that it is not the same as the techniques found in karate.If by any chance all of the sudden they are the same then somebody has been seriously crosstraining.

Ok, we covered that. Clearly you know more about this than me, I just thought you implied that they didn't exist in karate, I thought you were using terms and like jab and hook more generically than you are.

Well, whatever, the end of another 'mine's better' thread *sigh* what was the point of this again? The endless TMA vs. MMA debate drones on purposelessly as always lol. I'll just give it up, Motobu would've loved MMA and hated everything else in the world, ever. There, ya happy now???? :)

I get the feeling you generally were dissapointed by your experiences in Karate, do you feel you retained nothing of value from your training for the ring? If so I don't know what to tell you, you seem to have a low opinion of the efficacy of Karate technique, I disagree, but I suppose I haven't had the same experiences with these things as you; so it's hard to say.

hectokan
23rd August 2005, 15:27
I get the feeling you generally were dissapointed by your experiences in Karate, do you feel you retained nothing of value from your training for the ring? If so I don't know what to tell you, you seem to have a low opinion of the efficacy of Karate technique, I disagree, but I suppose I haven't had the same experiences with these things as you; so it's hard to say.


Zach,
No,not really I respect karate a lot and have a genuine respect for it's underlying theory of trying to perfect the character,we as humans tend to defend what we do,who we are and what we practice.I agree with you that these type of threads"Motobu fighting a boxer"always bring out the old MMA/TMA issues but hey they can be healthy and fun at times,if we converse about them without having to insult one another.I believe that is one karate value that I cherrish the most and try to uphold most of the time.

So did we finally come to the conclusion that Motobu defeated a legitimate champion boxer or what?

lol

Cam Briggs
23rd August 2005, 20:14
Georges St. Pierre is another karate man. UFC welterweight contender.

Any information on what specific technique beat the boxer in the Motobu fight?

Cam Briggs
I agree with Zack, MMA Rules.It's the best...LOL
It's All Good Hector

shoshinkan
23rd August 2005, 21:18
From the reports and research I have found it was a single knuckle fist to the temple. One strike.

Do I believe this, well I wasnt there so I will keep an open mind.

However OSensei Motbou was famous for the technique so its a possability, apparently the boxer couldnt land a decent punch and got sloopy, then wham its all over !

I love historical karate romance !

robertmrivers
23rd August 2005, 21:39
Robert

You had said...(I think you need to calm down and actually read what you have written and I have replied to. You said something about them and the Okinawan Tournament…….my point was that tournament forbid contact therefore they could not have “hit hard”)

I am perfectly calm, Rob-san, but the classic twisting of statements that naturally happens on long threads with multile topics has distorted what I said.
The "hit hard" statement was in regards to the Ryu Sei Kan group. I did not say they competed in the tournament. It was said previously that Okinawa or not, Okinawan practitioners still use gear and they still "tippy tap". I simply responded with the name of a group in Okinawa that fights full contact without gear. I understand that the rules of the tournament are essentially JKA rules and that the death was an accident. I think we have three different discussions going on at the same time and it is throwing some people off. No worries.

Rob Rivers

Trevor Johnson
23rd August 2005, 21:42
From the reports and research I have found it was a single knuckle fist to the temple. One strike.

Do I believe this, well I wasnt there so I will keep an open mind.

However OSensei Motbou was famous for the technique so its a possability, apparently the boxer couldnt land a decent punch and got sloopy, then wham its all over !

I love historical karate romance !


Does anyone know, aside from the photo, who the boxer was? I'm presuming he was a bareknuckles fighter of some kind, but who he was and where he was from might be interesting info to know. Also be nice to know what kinda rules he trained for. From my understanding, at that time it was the "noble art of fisticuffs," so primarily fists, not other striking surfaces of the hands or feet. However, if he were a savate guy, I'd find that interesting.

shoshinkan
23rd August 2005, 23:21
again dont quote me but memory is saying that the guy was a russian boxer, and a big bloke as well in comparison to the okinawans average height. Im it was reported that he wore gloves.

i have some articles and notes kicking about, I can ge tthem together and post if thats any good ?

shoshinkan
24th August 2005, 08:10
In fact the first post on this thread is of a very respect source and gives good detail, certianly far better than I could put together!

Bustillo, A.
24th August 2005, 17:56
Here is the picture of the boxer. Had to compress it pretty good to make it viewable...

Rob Rivers

Wasn't he one of the back-UP ousted members of the Village People.

johnst_nhb
24th August 2005, 18:26
Zach,

I still have and train with quite a few traditional karate instruments. I have chishi, nigiri game, sonobaku and three different types of makiwara as well as tetsu geta. No one will ever get me to stop training with these even if something is better or more useful I'd still add it into the above elements of my training. However that is incorporated in my heavy bag and AB band training as well.

It's just in my opinion MMA offers a better concept of all around fighting than Karate. I'm not putting down Karate in any way shape or form it's just my opinion. When some of the Bouncers want to train with me, they don't wanna learn kata, or practice kihon gyaku zuki with propper hikite so they can learn to generate power from their hips, these guys need to learn how to throw it down and MMA offers that IMO on a faster level that Traditional Karate. No time to analyze Kata and search for a potential technique.

Regards,

Mike Mitchell

Mike has pulled guard on the correct here. As a traditional karate guy, I practice for more than just fighting. But even some traditional guys know to cross train and use different methods to be better fighters. It really depends on how you approach your training. It is true that a person that trains for 3 months in a MMA gym will (likely) be a better fighter than someone who trains 3 months in a traditional karate dojo (this of course is a gross generalization to make a point, there are variables/exceptions).But that does not mean karate is worthless.

In my dojo, someone there for 3 months will have some basic fighting skills (standup, grappling) that, while may still not be taught on the level of a full time MMA gym, are still valuable and could be used for self defense...This is done by teaching and drilling basics in boxing, kickboxing, grappling and yes, some techniques from karate. In my dojo, new folks are first acclimated with basic boxing drills (pad work, partner drills, footwork, etc). They are (hopefully) taught to get some good basic punches and drill them until they have good speed and power...

I love karate but not afraid to incorporate other methods for best results...

j

Maddog Mitchell
24th August 2005, 19:24
Thanks John!

I was wondering when you were gonna jump in LOL

Regards,

Mike Mitchell

hectokan
24th August 2005, 21:36
If it looks like it,smells like it and taste like it.


IT MUST BE IT!

ZachZinn
24th August 2005, 21:53
If it looks like it,smells like it and taste like it.


IT MUST BE IT!


Huh? inside joke or what?

hectokan
25th August 2005, 00:12
Huh? inside joke or what?


NO,not at all Zach.I am just trying to find out what percentage of karate must one keep in their training routine in order to still be considered a karate man?

99%

75%

50%

20%

5%

?

ZachZinn
25th August 2005, 13:35
NO,not at all Zach.I am just trying to find out what percentage of karate must one keep in their training routine in order to still be considered a karate man?

99%

75%

50%

20%

5%

?


Im not sure it's cut and dried enough that you even could figure out what % of someones technique IS karate or something else if theyve trained multiple things, I would say if someone still finds value (for whatever reason) to practicing kata then they are still 'doing karate'.

hectokan
25th August 2005, 14:28
I would say if someone still finds value (for whatever reason) to practicing kata then they are still 'doing karate'.


Well I guess that makes it easy on all of us then,as these guys have just been eliminated off the karate list.

George st. pierre,Bas rutten,Chuck liddel,And maybe even E-budo own Maddog Mitchel has to go too.


Motobu 100% karate

RobertRousselot
25th August 2005, 14:34
Guys,
I don’t mind you discussing the pros and cons of Karate or whatever but this thread was started because of a historical article on Motobu…..nothing else.
So if you guys want to continue maybe you can start a different thread.

ZachZinn
25th August 2005, 15:10
Well I guess that makes it easy on all of us then,as these guys have just been eliminated off the karate list.

George st. pierre,Bas rutten,Chuck liddel,And maybe even E-budo own Maddog Mitchel has to go too.


Motobu 100% karate


I didn't say anything about what constitutes not doing karate, only about what I suppose does constitute doing it, I have no idea objectively what is and is not karate, as what is karate has changed immensely in the short span of time it's been called this, and I expect it to continue changing. It's a subjective thing anyway, meh. Anyway, on the off topic thing, I wouldn't be adverse to a thread where we can compare and contrast training methods etc, though i'd have no idea where it should go.

BTW...if you're doing shadowboxing you're doing something that is similar enough in my mind to kata (or maybe a subset of kata practice) that I wouldn't 'cross someone off the list', because they don't perform Seuinchin 10 times a day.

ZachZinn
25th August 2005, 15:42
Also, what do you mean "Motobu 100% karate"?
Yeah, I think we should have a new thread if possible, this discussion is important and actually I think i've learned a few things from it, I wouldn't mind continuing.

johnst_nhb
25th August 2005, 15:47
If it looks like it,smells like it and taste like it.


IT MUST BE IT!

Man, the tendency to compartmentalize and classify is really strong isn't it?

I am a "karate man" through and through. If I like and see value in methods that are not "100%" karate, what difference does it make? I still identify myself as a karateka and I also identify myself as a martial artist who has exposure to many different fighting methods. In my dojo, I see value in both and they do not collide. Big deal.

I like to paint too-arcylic to be exact. But I do like and paint with oils too. Am I an acrylic painter or an oil painter?

johnst_nhb
25th August 2005, 15:52
NO,not at all Zach.I am just trying to find out what percentage of karate must one keep in their training routine in order to still be considered a karate man?

99%

75%

50%

20%

5%

?

Hector, with all due respect-and I do respect you- what does this prove? What purpose would this serve? I get what you are saying, but my point is that trying to define what is [pure] karate is just kind of silly. If you were to take a look at my training and determine that its only x% karate, what bearing would that have on anything?

j

hectokan
25th August 2005, 16:31
Hector, with all due respect-and I do respect you- what does this prove? What purpose would this serve? I get what you are saying, but my point is that trying to define what is [pure] karate is just kind of silly. If you were to take a look at my training and determine that its only x% karate, what bearing would that have on anything?

j

John you are absolutely right,it proves nothing really except for the fact that we kind of end up debunking the old saying that" karate is kata and kata is karate".We also end up understanding what Zach mentioned previously about how people are different and how our own interpretations of karate could be inconsistent or different from most other karate circles.

I mean look at judo for example I have never heard of a judoka tell another judoka that he is not doing judo simply because he does not practice nage-no kata or even knows it.I have heard it from most karate circles over the past 30 years thou but never in judo.Is it a karate thing?So you see it's not just a flamming type of disscusion that always materializes and get's thrown at karate but a very legitimate one.

John looking at your routine(I think it's a great one), I am sure that you are also aware that most traditional karate practicioners do not even classify your training as true karate,Not that you care anyway.

Maybe it's me,maybe I just got hang ups for being called the black sheep of karate years ago for doing what seems like a ok thing to do today.

johnst_nhb
25th August 2005, 18:12
John you are absolutely right,it proves nothing really except for the fact that we kind of end up debunking the old saying that" karate is kata and kata is karate".We also end up understanding what Zach mentioned previously about how people are different and how our own interpretations of karate could be inconsistent or different from most other karate circles.

I mean look at judo for example I have never heard of a judoka tell another judoka that he is not doing judo simply because he does not practice nage-no kata or even knows it.I have heard it from most karate circles over the past 30 years thou but never in judo.Is it a karate thing?So you see it's not just a flamming type of disscusion that always materializes and get's thrown at karate but a very legitimate one.

John looking at your routine(I think it's a great one), I am sure that you are also aware that most traditional karate practicioners do not even classify your training as true karate,Not that you care anyway.

Maybe it's me,maybe I just got hang ups for being called the black sheep of karate years ago for doing what seems like a ok thing to do today.

Thanks for the clarification Hector. It makes sense.

You are correct that alot of Traditional karate folks would not see my routine as true karate. But then again I don't see [traditional] fat-asses who stand around telling their students how to "crack heads" (imagery taken from a local goju guy) to be any good. So I guess that's that! LOL.

I guess to me, I identify as a karateka because I adhere to my ryu insofar as kata and bunkai (bunkai being a whole other can of worms). But I also think there are some things that can be learned more efficiently (if fighting is one's goal) than through kihon and kata.

Good discussion, thanks!

j