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Jody Holeton
8th June 2000, 22:02
Dear all and Mr. Powers,

I was reading up on Toyama-ryu again and came up with a question. During its creation at the Toyama Gakko, in China and in Korea, did it ever get to see live combat training against opponents armed with blades (Chinese soldiers with Temple swords or some such).
There is alot of information about sword work and atrocities but I've never read anything about real 1 on 1 fencing matches.

Hope to hear something soon--Jody

ghp
8th June 2000, 23:44
Dear Jody,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>During its creation at the Toyama Gakko, in China and in Korea, did it ever get to see live combat training against opponents armed with blades (Chinese soldiers with Temple swords or some such).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, not sword v. sword. However, Kirikomitai (special assault units) would assault rifle-armed Chinese forces, who were said to have dropped weapon and run when the Japanese were within 100 yards. Now, I doubt that *all* Chinese troops dropped their weapons and ran -- but I have heard this from a former member.

That being said, I do not want to give the impression that the sword was a force-multipler on the battlefield; it was not. I would say that they were seldom used, but for a news article Joe Svinth provided me. The article was about a Japanese government contracted sword smith who went to China to repair all the broken swords. I think he said something like 30,000 -- and remarked how poorly forged most were. So, if that many were broken, they must have been used for more than opening ration boxes or chopping firewood.

Chances are, the 30,000 (or whatever the number was) broken swords occured while committing war crimes. Even Nakamura sensei -- a former army teacher -- said the "swordsmanship of that period [China/Pacific War] was of the "satsujin ken" variety." That is, the "murdering sword" was employed.

It is wrong to wax romantically over supposed "battlefield hand-to-hand" combat with the Japanese sword. It is an injustice. When we do so, we tend to ignore the harsh reality of what actually happened -- thus, tacitly sanctioning (by ommission) the war crimes committed. When my students become shodan, I require them to view horrific photographs of Chinese murdered by Japanese soldiers using swords (and bayonet). I want to ensure my new swordsmen understand the difference between katsujin ken and satsujin ken -- and trust that this knowledge will plant the seeds of honor and respect for life.

The Jews say of the Holocost, "Never Again." I also want to echo that sentiment.

Regards,
Guy


------------------
Guy H. Power
http://www.trifox.com/aux/kenshinkan

ghp
9th June 2000, 06:22
Toby,

Thanks for the kind words. I wish I had the opportunity to meet your late sensei. I am sure he has already crossed "Sanzu no Gawa" (the Japanese version of River Styx) and is probably giving instruction on the other side.

Regards,
Guy


------------------
Guy H. Power
http://www.trifox.com/aux/kenshinkan

ghp
9th June 2000, 06:26
My thanks to Joe Svinth -- "Historian Extrodinaire."
=========

Swordsmiths Rush to Chinese Front to Mend Broken Blades

Japanese-American Courier, Seattle, Washington, June 4, 1938, 1

Ed. note: This article first appeared in Japan Times.

TOKIO -- Swords are still a prime necessity in war time, despite airplanes, armored tanks, machine guns and repeating rifles. It has been found, and the government has taken special steps, to see that officers
have blades which will suit their needs.

However, the blades they carry these days are not up to the standards of olden times, according to Hikosaburo Kurihara, expert swordsmith, who recently returned from the Shanghai area, where with a party of smiths he
has repaired 15,000 swords for Japanese officers.

So great was the need found for this repair work that the master smith has gone to the North China area, where he will attend to the needs of the officers there.

Manchurian steel has been found the best material for blades as proved by experience of officers in the Shanghai district, the expert said, and he recommended to the War Ministry that metal of that kind be used in future whenever found available.

"We mended about 15,000 swords in Shanghai," the swordsmith said at his home in Hikawacho, Akasaka-ku. "Blades of good steel do not snap easily, as did some of those we found. I recommended to the War Ministry that
they make available Manchurian steel to all the swordsmiths in the country. It is about as strong as any we know of."

"An officer with a damaged sword, and who expects a battle next day is a pitiful sight. I saw many of them working late at night on their weapons, which may mean life or death to them."



------------------
Guy H. Power
http://www.trifox.com/aux/kenshinkan

9th June 2000, 16:22
Guy,

Excellent Post. Takamura Sensei would have been very pleased with the explaination of katsujin ken, satsujin ken you just posted.

Respectfully,

Toby Threadgill

Nathan Scott
10th June 2000, 00:33
Wow,

Interesting article.

I wonder how hard it would be to track down Mr. Hikosaburo Kurihara of Hikawacho, Akasaka-ku, or perhaps some of his family or possible apprentices.

I'll bet he would have alot of interesting first hand information to share.

Regards,



------------------
Nathan Scott
Shinkendo & Aiki Buken Honbu dojo (http://www.shinkendo.com)
Tsuki Kage dojo (http://www.tsuki-kage.com)
Japanese Sword Arts Discussion Forum (http://www.swordforum.com/jsa)

Paul Steadman
9th October 2000, 11:04
Hi all,

Could Powers-Sensei or anyone in the know out there help me with any information on Yamaguchi Yuki-Sensei of Toyama Ryu Iai Kempo as utilised by members of Hontai Yoshin Ryu.

I used to train with the Ozzie Hontai Yoshin Ryu branch from time to time and the Toyama Ryu techniques bore some resemblence to the Toyama Ryu of Nakamura-Sensei, but maybe had less footwork/movement. Very similar kata pattern though. And in the manual of Yamaguchi-Sensei the names of the kata are the same (ie: Ipponme- Mae no Teki etc) but the names of the cut were different.

Can anyone help with this? All the best.

Regards,

Paul Steadman

Paul Steadman
10th October 2000, 08:09
Thanks again Daniel,

The discription fits the identity of the man in the photographs I have from Hontai Yoshin Ryu.

All the best.

Paul Steadman

ghp
10th October 2000, 19:39
Hello Paul.


Could Powers-Sensei or anyone in the know out there help me with any information on Yamaguchi Yuki-Sensei of Toyama Ryu Iai Kempo as utilised by members of Hontai Yoshin Ryu.

I've done in-depth research and comparrisons amongst Nakamura-ha, Yamaguchi-ha, and Morinaga-ha Toyama Ryu iaido. Suffice it to say that they are all about 90% similar with few changes in actual execution. In addition to comparing their different texts, I've actually been able to compare techniques with two different students of Yamaguchi-ha.

Yamaguchi-ha and Nakamura-ha are very close, except that Yamaguchi sensei uses the pre-1935 kata for #5 -- however, he reverses the order. Originally, #5 was cut, then thrust; Yamaguchi changed it to thrust, then cut. Additionally, he emphasizes the "kissaki manipulation" so his #5 really looks like Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu chuden-level "Iwanami."

Another difference is that for #8 "Itto Ryodan" Yamaguchi sensei teaches a jump cut instead of remaining soundly planted on the ground.

Regards,
Guy

Paul Steadman
11th October 2000, 00:19
Thanks Guy,

I knew you'd have some info for me. I've actually read somewhere about the different Toyama-ryu Batto-jutsu/Batto-do federations in Japan. Thanks for your help.

Regards,

Paul Steadman

shinja
28th October 2000, 05:20
As of late, I have become intrigued with Toyama Ryu. I would like to ask a few questions.

Is the rather abreviated system of Toyama taught on it's own or is it usually taught in conjunction with another sword art?

Was there a similar abreviated fencing (ala kendo) system developed along the same line as Toyama ryu?

And is possible to recieve instruction and teaching status in Toyama Ryu?

Are there instructors here in the US teaching this system?

Please forgive me if these sound like silly questions.

Stéphan Thériault
28th October 2000, 06:51
Well, at the top right hand side of the Swords Arts Forum there is a list of recommended sites. The one by mr. Guy Powers is the place to go. Mr.Powers is licensed in Toyama-ryu under mr.Nakamura's branch. If I am not mistaken there are currently 3 branches of Toyama-ryu in Japan. Hope this helps.

Hans Andersen
28th October 2000, 06:52
Steven,

Check out Guy Power's website for a wealth of information about Toyama Ryu, Nakaumura Ryu, and the history of the Toyama Academy.

http://www.trifox.com/aux/kenshinkan/

ghp
28th October 2000, 07:17
Shinja,


Is the rather abreviated system of Toyama taught on it's own or is it usually taught in conjunction with another sword art?

It is taught on its own within the 3 major Toyama Ryu Iaido federations. These organizations are each headed by 3 former instructors of the Toyama Academy.

1. Dai Nippon Toyama Ryu Iaido Kai (Osaka). Founded by Morinaga Kiyoshi sensei (d. ca 1986). This system teaches the original 5 kata implemented in 1925, plus the 3 additional kata introduced in 1939 (original #5 was deleted). Morinaga sensei served several assignments at the Toyama Military Academy, starting as a second lieutenant. He is the one who sent the Army's request to Nakayama Hakudo, asking his help in making combat effective army sword techniques. Throughout Morinaga sensei's army career -- as a captain, major, and lieutenant colonel -- he taught kenjutsu at Toyama Academy. Then, as a lt. col., he became the Director of Fencing at the academy and incorporated some changes and added kata in 1939. Tsunami Videos (http://www.dragon-tsunami.org) sells a video of these waza, performed by Tokutomi Tasaburo sensei [if you saw "Budo: The Art of Killing" you saw Tokutomi sensei in the end, performing kumitachi with my teacher, Nakamura Taizaburo].

2. Zen Nihon Toyama Ryu Iaido Renmei (Yokohama). Founded by Nakamura Taizaburo sensei (b. 1911). This system uses the 8 Toyama Ryu Iai kata as they were taught in 1939 -- when Nakamura sensei attended the academy. After graduation, Nakamura sensei was dispatched around China teaching "Combat Budo" including kenjutsu (Toyama Ryu), jukenjutsu (bayonet), and tankenjutsu (dagger/dismounted bayonet).

3. Zen Nihon Toyama Ryu Iaido So-Renmei (Sapporo, Hokkaido). Founded by Yamaguchi Yuuki sensei (b. 1900). Yamaguchi sensei was also an instructor at the Toyama Academy. His teachings are very similiar to what Nakamura sensei teaches (1939 version), except Yamaguchi sensei has interjected a neo-Shinto religious aspect into the art [similar to what Uyeshiba Morihei did when he wrapped Daitoryu aikijujutsu into a neo-shinto religion to create aikido]. Hontai Yoshin Ryu jujutsu has recently (well, around 1980) added Toyama Ryu Iai to its training.

4. Nakamura Ryu Battodo. Founded in 1953 by Nakamura Taizaburo. Toyama Ryu Iaido is the foundation for Nakamura Ryu Battodo. Tsunami Video sells Nakamura sensei's video tape which includes the 8 Toyama Ryu kata.


Was there a similar abreviated fencing (ala kendo) system developed along the same line as Toyama ryu?

I don't understand your question.


And is possible to recieve instruction and teaching status in Toyama Ryu?

Yes. However, understand that "teaching status" is not the same as "blackbelt" rank. There are 10 rank grades in Toyama Ryu, and there are 3 teaching certificates: Renshi, Kyoshi, and Hanshi. This is true in each of the three autonomous Federations. These certificates are not automatic. A person can test for the first license, Renshi, when he or she reaches 5th dan. When the person is 7th dan, he or she may test for Kyoshi, and when 8th dan one can test for Hanshi. There are time-in-grade factors, as well as age criteria involved. A person can be a 7th dan without even testing for Renshi. That doesn't mean a 6th dan is unqualified to teach, assist, or run a dojo.


Are there instructors here in the US teaching this system?

Yes.

Nakamura-ha:
1. Guy Power. Renshi, 6th dan. San Jose, CA
2. Peer Halperin. 6th dan. San Diego, CA
3. Ron Zediker. Renshi, 5th dan. Assigned to England
4. John Vincent. 4th dan. Detroit, MI
5. Bob Elder. 4th dan. Orlando, FL
6. Ted Petit. Unranked, but leading a study group in Palmdale, CA.

Another teacher will be announced soon, but it's not official yet.

Yamaguchi-ha:
1. Dr. Steve Fabian. 3rd dan. Hanover College, IN (Hontai Yoshin Ryu US Representative)
2. Deleted on 10/29; incorrect information provided.

Morinaga-ha:
Unknown

If you have further questions, please visit my web site (below); if you still have questions after that, then ask and I'll attempt some answers.

Regards,
Guy


[Edited by ghp on 10-30-2000 at 12:30 AM]

shinja
28th October 2000, 20:46
Guy,

Thanks for the info! I must confess to complete ignorance when it comes to Japanese sword arts.

I have recently taken up study in Hakko Ryu jujutsu and thought that training in kenjutsu would make for a well rounded martial education.

My question concerning an abreviated fencing was from a lack of understanding. Does the term iaijutsu strictly refer to fast draw and cutting? And does the term kenjutsu refer to sword against sword fencing?

I took a look at your website. Very informative.

Meik Skoss
29th October 2000, 14:09
Guy,

Thanks for the great breakdown of the groups training in Toyama-ryu. That was very helpful. I didn't realize that it was Tokutomi S. who was in the "Enaru Budo" film. That's a looooong time ago, huh? I recall seeing it in Kabuki-cho, sitting in a nearly empty theater and wondering who the guy was who was pounding on the railroad locomotive as though it were a makiwara. I guess that's real "training," huh?

However, your statement about Chip Armstrong being graded in Toyama-ryu, is incorrect. He has a background in various styles of Japanese/Okinawan karatedo, Tatsumi-ryu bujutsu, Owari Kan-ryu sojutsu, Hikida/Yagyu Shinkage-ryu kenjutsu, as well as several Chinese types of chop-sockey, but he has never done Toyama-ryu to my knowledge.

Have you heard anything about a new product, the Battojutsu Vegematic? "It slices, it dices, it cuts eight ways. It's a very personal statement, portable and convenient -- you can carry it on your hip. Two sizes: a large and a small. Get the complete set and you'll be ready to appear on 'The Iron Chef'."

I wonder if there's a telephone number or an e-mail address where I can get one for a Christmas gift. Have you any idea?

ghp
30th October 2000, 06:27
Meik,

Long time, no hear!!! Thanks for responding. I must have mistaken Chip for someone else (Nyle Monday??).

Speaking of both Chip and Toyama Ryu in a single breath, he wrote, "...Toyama-ryu battodo, for example, is a modern sword-drawing, test-cutting system. While quite effective at what it was designed for, i.e., sword-drawing and test-cutting, it has little or no battlefield application...." (Koryu Bujutsu: Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan, "The Koryu Budo Experience," p.7).

Any idea why he thought it had "little or no battlefield application" when it was actually taught for the battlefield?

And the guy pounding on the locomotive ... was that Kuniba Shogo? Back in 1970 a former student of his told me that Kuniba sensei used to pound on trains and slice bottle necks -- I just assumed that person in Einaru Budo was Kuniba sensei (he does appear with Hayashi Teruo in the movie).

And speaking of Einaru Budo [Eternal Martial Ways] ... isn't it great how the title translated into English so well ... "Budo: The Art of Killing." Nakamura sensei said the film did not receive the Monbusho "seal of approval" for two reasons: (1) it included professional Sumo, and (2) because he cut someone's head off at the end. And by the way -- it was Mr. Obata Toshishiro's head!

Regards,
Guy
Skoss Budo Ranch Wannabe (current?/former?)

Yamantaka
4th November 2000, 20:54
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ghp
[B]Meik,

Long time, no hear!!! Thanks for responding. I must have mistaken Chip for someone else (Nyle Monday??).

YAMANTAKA : Uh...I'm a bit confused...Guy Power first talked about Stephen Fabian(if I'm not mistaken) and Meik Skoss corrected it as Hunter (Chip) Armstrong. Was there some confusion or am I (as almost always) the confused one?
With all due respect
Yamantaka

ghp
5th November 2000, 03:24
Yamantaka,

You're just slightly confused. Dr. Stephen Fabian is ranked in Hontai Yoshin Ryu jujutsu and also practices Yamaguchi-ha Toyama Ryu iaido.

I *thought* that Hunter "Chip" Armstrong was also a practitioner. Meik corrected me and I deleted my original comment.

Regards,
Guy

Yamantaka
5th November 2000, 09:15
Originally posted by ghp
Yamantaka,

You're just slightly confused. Dr. Stephen Fabian is ranked in Hontai Yoshin Ryu jujutsu and also practices Yamaguchi-ha Toyama Ryu iaido.

I *thought* that Hunter "Chip" Armstrong was also a practitioner. Meik corrected me and I deleted my original comment.

Regards,
Guy

YAMANTAKA : Thank you, Guy San! When I read this thread, your observation about Armstrong was already deleted and as you told that Hontai Yoshin Ryu has included Toyama Ryu, I made the confusion. I stand corrected.
Best regards and good keiko

Jody Holeton
15th November 2000, 19:34
Dear Shinja,

Here in Michigan I believe we have a couple of instructors of Toyama-ryu Battodo.

We have John Vincent here in Michigan, but we have a couple more people teaching Toyama-ryu around here. One of the top ones is John Viol who has a shihan menkyo in Yagyu Shingan-ryu Iaijutsu and some sort of teaching degree in Toyama-ryu. John Viol is also supposed to have a whole bunch of teaching degrees in Karate, kobudo etc. etc. A couple of Viol's students also teach Toyama-ryu like Kevin Hough and Frank Neppert.
Isnt there supposed to some sort of American Iado federation thats supposed to keep track of instructors?
I thought there were alot more instructors of Toyama-ryu here in America?

Just my 2 cents worth---Jody Holeton

Animo
15th November 2000, 22:15
Bob Elder just put up a web site for his dojo at http://www.toyamausa.com. His main dojo is in Orlando Florida with branches in Melbourne FL, Tallahassee FL, and Pittsburgh PA.

Nathan Scott
15th November 2000, 23:36
(2) because he cut someone's head off at the end. And by the way -- it was Mr. Obata Toshishiro's head!

Funny, huh? Obata Sensei said that he was supposed to participate in the film, but had been called off to teach somewhere or somthing (I forget exactly what happened). At least he got beheaded. It would have been interesting to see him contribute to that film - classic, and one of the very few decent documentary's on Budo.


Isnt there supposed to some sort of American Iado federation thats supposed to keep track of instructors? I thought there were alot more instructors of Toyama-ryu here in America?

Ha ha ha!

I think that's Guy-san your referring to! There were already alot of people here in America that had learned "Toyama ryu" from video tapes and books (incorrectly) by the time Guy announced the formation of the USA Toyama ryu federation. That can't be an easy thing to clean up or regulate after that fact.

Not implying that the people Jody-san mentioned are a part of that group, just that it must be hard to keep all the Toyama ryu instructors in America straight. Sure has caught on here in the states.

Regards,

Jody Holeton
16th November 2000, 03:05
Dear all,

I studied Toyama-ryu a bit when I was younger. Is there anyway someone could answer some questions I have?


From the top.

Toyama-ryu Iaido is really a battodo?

It is a gendai art?

Nakamura Taizabura and a board of instructors at the Toyama Gakkou combined styles to make Toyama-ryu for new officers?
What styles does Toyama-ryu come from?

Toyama-ryu can be practiced in regular keiko gi (pants)?
Which way is the blade worn? From pictures I've seen Japanese officers wear it blade down....

Toyama-ryu actually has real combat experience? But not against other swordsmen?

I've been told that batto-do practicioners start training with a live blade right from the start. I've seen some schools do that but other schools train consistantly with a bokuto or bokken.

What are other styles of battodo? Dont most other iaido/iaijutsu styles do test cutting?

Any input would be appreciated--
Thanks,
Jody Holeton

Hans Andersen
16th November 2000, 04:46
It's only a matter of time before Guy shows up and answers most of your questions, but until then, there are lots of great info at an earlier e-budo thread on Toyama Ryu:
<A HREF="http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2679">earlier thread</A>

<B>Toyama-ryu can be practiced in regular keiko gi (pants)?
Which way is the blade worn? From pictures I've seen Japanese officers wear it blade down.... </B>
Several people at the Kenshinkan dojo wear "regular" pants during training, but most of us wear hakama. We always wear swords with the blade edge up.

<B>I've been told that batto-do practicioners start training with a live blade right from the start. I've seen some schools do that but other schools train consistantly with a bokuto or bokken. </B>
Since I started, I've seen several new people who use live blades from the start, but not everyone does this - I have used iaito from the start; it's a lot less scary to learn noto that way.

ghp
16th November 2000, 05:04
Joey,

I'd be interested in knowing from whom you studied. Most of your questions will be answered on my website (link at the top right of the Sword Arts forum header "Kenshinkan Dojo").

If, after reading my information, you still have questions unanswered, I'll be happy to answer them. I could answer them now, but that would make it too easy on you.

Suffice it to say that Toyama Ryu was established in 1925. Nakamura sensei was teaching kendo, jukendo, etc. in the army since he joined (as a 3rd dan) in 1932 until 1945. In 1935 he was teaching at a middle school "attached" to the Toyama Academy. In 1939 he attended and graduated Toyama Academy.

See also:
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2679
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2308
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=252 -- actually, you started this thread
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=1837

There were other threads, but I can't find them.

Regards,
Guy


Moderator note: Edited to changed the path of the links.

ghp
16th November 2000, 05:28
Sheesh, okay ... I'll answer the questions now .... but only briefly. I still want Joey to do his own research now that he has the information.

From the top.

>Toyama-ryu Iaido is really a battodo?

Some call it "battojutsu;" some "battodo;" and others "iaido." Nakamura sensei prefers "battodo" because the Chinese characters mean "extracting sword Way;" whereas "iaido" means the "Way of blending the existance." (Can you say "HUH???").

>It is a gendai art?

Yes. Established in 1925.

Nakamura Taizabura and a board of instructors at the Toyama Gakkou combined styles to make Toyama-ryu for new officers?

No. Nakamura sensei was only 14 when the Toyama Military Academy adopted the original 5 forms. The forms were developed by committee with the able assistance of Nakayama Hakudo sensei.

>What styles does Toyama-ryu come from?

Most people say "Omori Ryu iaido." I disagree. The forms feel more a part of the okuden level standing forms of Eishin Ryu (aka Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu). The possible confusion comes from the fact that Omori Ryu forms are the beginning level of Eishin Ryu. Nakayama Hakudo was the 16th master of Eishin Ryu in the Shimomura lineage.

>Toyama-ryu can be practiced in regular keiko gi (pants)?

Yes.

>Which way is the blade worn?

Blade up.

>From pictures I've seen Japanese officers wear it blade down....

They wore it suspended from a chain/strap attached to a leather (or canvas) swordbelt. When used during training, the sword was inserted into the strap, edge up. See picture of Nakamura sensei, below.

http://www.trifox.com/aux/kenshinkan/photo9911/sword_v_bayonet.jpg

1944, Camp Jinmu, Northern China

>Toyama-ryu actually has real combat experience? But not against other swordsmen?

Against both armed soldiers and unarmed/bound prisoners. Sensei taught the "Kirikomi-tai" -- a special attack group who used swords. Anyone receiving army sword training received "Toyama Ryu Iai" training. Many misused what they learned and tested techniques on unarmed civilians and prisoners.

>I've been told that batto-do practicioners start training with a live blade right from the start. I've seen some schools do that but other schools train consistantly with a bokuto or bokken.

Live blade or iaito may be used from the beginning. A bokuto (aka "bokken") is good only for safely showing how particular techniques work. A beginner can use bokuto while still considering whether to make Toyama Ryu a long-term committment. You can learn stances and grip, and cuts. But you really need a scabbard and blade to get the draw and resheathing right.

>What are other styles of battodo?

Too many to list. "battodo" and "iaido" can be -- and are often -- interchanged.

>Dont most other iaido/iaijutsu styles do test cutting?

No. But judging from the comments from most of the martial arts based bulletin boards, one would come to that incorrect conclusion. Tameshigiri is an adjunct even to Toyama Ryu. Most schools of iai don't practice tameshigiri; some do, but it is usually "extra-curricular."

Regards, and happy research,
Guy

ghp
16th November 2000, 05:47
Joey,

Mr. Viol has a ranking (3/4/5 dan??) in Toyama Ryu from Ishihara sensei in Osaka, but as far as I know, he does not have a teaching license. Teaching licenses are "renshi," "kyoshi," and "hanshi." Ishihara sensei and Nakamura sensei are associates of some sort. The last I corresponded with Mr. Viol -- about 2 years ago -- he stated he no longer maintains association with the Toyama Ryu Federation or its politics.

Howdy Nathan,


I think that's Guy-san your referring to! There were already alot of people here in America that had learned "Toyama ryu" from video tapes and books (incorrectly) by the time Guy announced the formation of the USA Toyama ryu federation. That can't be an easy thing to clean up or regulate after that fact.

Actually, I only represent the International Battodo Federation. The IBF is the organ for Nakamura Ryu Battodo -- and it also teaches Toyama Ryu. However, some of our TR waza differ slightly from the All Japan Toyama Ryu Federation (and Nakamura sensei founded BOTH organizations). So there's bound to be confusion.

Bob Elder (St. Bob the Elder) of Orlando fame has recently founded the North American Toyama Ryu Federation. Good luck, Bob.

Regards,
Guy

Carlos Estrella
16th November 2000, 20:23
Hans,

Didn't mean to scare you by starting with a live blade a few weeks ago :-) Seriously, I am impressed with the Kenshinkan Dojo and all those who were there the Sunday I attended class.

Guy Sensei,

Although I didn't initiate this particular thread Guy, I appreciate the insights here,and again thank you from the bottom of my heart for the sincere way you taught your class.

As soon as work permits, I will be back, at least once a month. In the meanwhile, continue your shugyo and again, thank you.

Carlos Estrella

bobelder
17th November 2000, 00:15
Thanks for the kind words Mr. Power. Hey did you ever think of adding an "s" to your last name so everyone can get it right? Anyway, it may be a mistake to put me in charge of any organization since I am the most "un-politically correct" idiot you know. But they did. And now the Zen Nihon Batto Do renmei wants me to start an American sister group, the Zen Beikoku Batto Do renmei here. Or would that just be All American Japanese sword Cutting Association? I noticed at the last Machida tai kai that all the various competitors, ( speaking for the 4th dan and up division) , no matter what their style, did chuden kata. I was unable to decipher if that was the oficial chuden sei tei for the ZNBDR or some new Toyama Ryu thing. Maybe you know. The gent that won, ( and you know he had to) was a 7th dan MJER sensei with (either) 35 yrs. in the arts or studied since he was 35. I don't speak Japanese and sometimes .......wakaremasen. Anyway, as soon as I find out what is required for an American Batto assocition ( which would not be an American TOYAMA thing) like what members get for their dues, etc., I will get it registerd and open upi to anyone. Anyone that is except whiners and snivelers. I'm sure you've heard from some of the "left coast" guys about the tai kai we had here. Heh Heh! So, over and out! Bob Elder who goes by "sarge" or "coach" instead of "sensei." cause that's the way it is.

ghp
17th November 2000, 01:48
Howdy Bob


...And now the Zen Nihon Batto Do renmei wants me to start an American sister group, the Zen Beikoku Batto Do renmei here. Or would that just be All American Japanese sword Cutting Association?

I'd be careful about starting too many organizations ... they tend to take too much of your time, and they tend to grow their own politics, agendae, and heirarchies. Look at what happened in Japan. Nakamura sensei founded (1) the Zen Nihon Toyama Ryu Iaido Renmei, (2) the Zen Nihon Battodo Renmei, and (3) the Kokusai Battodo Renmei. He has influence in each, kinda-sorta (kaicho of #1 and #3 right now) -- but too many different pulls.

I forgot who told me, but it is true. If you have 3 Japanese, you get a Renmei. When you get a fourth Japanese, you get two Renmei.


I noticed at the last Machida tai kai that all the various competitors, ( speaking for the 4th dan and up division) , no matter what their style, did chuden kata. I was unable to decipher if that was the oficial chuden sei tei for the ZNBDR or some new Toyama Ryu thing. Maybe you know.

That sounds like the seitei-toho from Nakamura Ryu. I describe it as a "bridge" set that connects the Toyama Ryu waza to the Nakamura Ryu waza (and I've also referred to it as the "chuden" waza). If this is the set, there are 6 of them. Give this url a perusal: http://www.trifox.com/aux/kenshinkan/seitei.html


The gent that won, ( and you know he had to) was a 7th dan MJER sensei with (either) 35 yrs. in the arts or studied since he was 35.

http://www.trifox.com/aux/kenshinkan/photos/promzom.jpg
Hmmmmmmm ... that couldn't be Sato Shimeo sensei, could it? He's the white-haired gentleman in the Nakamura Ryu video (and above)? If so, he's a high-ranker in MJER, as well as hanshi, 9th dan in Nakamura Ryu (he's *my* choice for the nidai-soke if it comes to a vote). I'm not sure, but I think Sato sensei is the one who developed the Seitei-toho. And if this is the gentleman, he's been with Nakamura sensei for about 35 years.


...as soon as I find out what is required for an American Batto assocition ( which would not be an American TOYAMA thing) like what members get for their dues, etc.,....

Usually you get a nice photo ID, a copy of the Regulations, and the opportunity to test each year. That's it. Some organizations are really squared away and have quarterly (or even monthly) magazines. "Ken Shin" used to be the magazine for the Zen Nihon Battodo Renmei, but I haven't seen a copy in years.

Regards,
Guy

bobelder
17th November 2000, 03:07
As Granny used to say, "you slobbered a bibful!" That pic of you with Sato Sensei, is that your official dojo recognition? I can't think of the name right now, had to much to drnk. Wow, that's as good as it gets. How many dojo owners have one? not many I'd guess. Anyway, adios Bb elder

Dogger
8th August 2004, 01:19
I have started Batto do/Toyama ryu and I have started with and all our students start with a dull, but pointy blade as bad noto will show you real quick. I now practice noto fifty times a night. We wear our swords ha up (edge up) and wear a hakama in practice. We have a TAI KAI coming up on August 28 in Orlando, FL and all your questions could be sought there. Good Luck

PS also try ECMAS.com

Carlos Estrella
8th August 2004, 01:41
I'll be at the Tai Kai, barring work commitments I'm REALLY trying to avoid.

FYI: Before anyone gets ugly about it <g>, you need to post with your actual name on the forums here, otherwise some folks get antsy about it (it's a rule too <g>).

If you are practicing noto 50x's a night, you're doing better than most, and it's a good thing. Make sure your instructor's checking your noto though, to ensure that you're not "burning in" bad habits... Elder Sensei in Orlando has caught me on a few habits I had/have, but my noto's gradually improving and if I can get to class more often than quarterly (sorry Saint Bob :D )I'll be ok.

Take care!

Carlos

Charles Mahan
8th August 2004, 04:17
In addition to posting your name Dogger, you might not want to hold your breath about getting many replies to your comments. This thread was nearly 4 years old when you dug it up.

George Kohler
8th August 2004, 14:49
Originally posted by Dogger
PS also try ECMAS.com

Dogger,

Welcome to E-Budo.

Please sign your posts with your full name. This is one of our rules on E-Budo.

George Kohler
8th August 2004, 14:59
I merged 4 threads together.

Nathan Scott
13th April 2013, 04:51
Hi all,

I know this is an old thread, but I thought I'd post here to consolidate related information.

Anyway, many of you may already know, but there is a full translation of Nakamura Taizaburo's book, "Nihonto Tameshigiri no Shinzui - Iai-Kendo Tameshigiri Nyumon". This was Nakamura Sensei's largest and most detailed book, published by Kodansha in 1980. The book is long out of print, and last time I checked was going for a few hundred dollars. But it has just been fully translated into English by Gavin Poffley, and published under the name "The Spirit of the Sword".

I haven't had time to read it yet, but the translator lists himself as being a professional translator, and the reviews on the book have been good. Since Nakamura Sensei was a senior exponent of both Kendo and Iaido, with practical experience using a sword, i would think this book would be valuable for just about anyone studying swordsmanship.

The translation looks good at first glance, which includes footnotes for clarification, and the photographs from the original book have been reproduced as well. The only semi-criticism I can see, if any, is that the photos are all black and white, and many of them have been shrunk down so small that they are almost not worth including since no detail can be seen. But for me, this is a small thing that is not nearly as important as having a full translation of this book (A LOT of work that I didn't have to do myself!). I picked up a new copy of it on Amazon.com cheap.

Anyone else out there read this book yet that would care to comment?

Nathan Scott
13th April 2013, 05:23
Oh, and in addition to a lot of information on tameshigiri, the book also has photo sequences with explanation of the Toyama-ryu kata and Nakamura-ryu kata, which is part of reason why I posted to this thread.

Kendoguy9
14th April 2013, 20:56
I think the book is a very good read. It has a ton of anecdotal information based on Nakamura sensei's many years teaching and training. I think his anecdotes are the most important part of the book. I think his stories serve as a frame of reference to swordsmanship of the time and the training officers received for combat.

His critique of other ryu is interesting and I'm not entirely sure I agree with his general premise that the old schools need serious revamping (see Kobudo and Shu-Ha-Ri) . The system he studied, taught and fought with was designed to fight a very different war than many of the koryu. Many koryu I think were designed for a medieval and pre-modern type of combat. I also think many ryu (such as Omori-ryu, a ryu that he seems to have some harsh critisim for) were not deisgned for the battlefield at all but rather a goshinjutsu sort of batto. Still it is a valuable book and I think some of his critisims aside I agree with a great deal of it from what little I know of Japanese swordsmanship.

The gunto soho is a very interesting sword training method as are Toyama-ryu and Nakamura-ryu. I think an interesting counter point to this book is a review of the much earlier 1909 "Kenjutsu Kyohan" and its use of the one handed western styled kyugunto (http://kenshi247.net/blog/2010/04/12/kenjutsu-kyohan-part-1-guntojutsu/). It really shows the change from the kyugunto to the shingunto and their respective applications.

Anyway great book and I would give it two thumbs up :)