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View Full Version : Brits, you are now allowed to defend yourself!



Evan London
1st February 2005, 15:58
Interesting... from http://story.news.yahoo.com/

Homeowners Can Even Kill Intruders - Guidelines

By James Kilner

LONDON (Reuters) - Homeowners in Britain will not be imprisoned for using "reasonable force" to fight off intruders even if they kill, under guidelines published Tuesday by the state prosecution service.

Britain's opposition Conservative Party has been calling for a change in the wording of the law after a series of high profile attacks so that people are only prosecuted if they use "grossly disproportionate" force

But Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites) said a change was unnecessary.

"What the Crown Prosecution Service and the police are saying is we don't actually need to change the law, what we need is for people to understand they are perfectly entitled to defend themselves against burglars in their own home,'" he told GMTV television.

But the new London police chief, Sir Ian Blair, appeared to disagree.
"I'm not sure the wording does go far enough ..," he told BBC radio before he had seen the new guidelines.

"'Reasonableness' is quite a difficult concept at 4 o'clock in the morning in your kitchen ..,"

The Crown Prosecution Service issued the new guidelines to try to clarify the law after increased public concern.

Farmer Tony Martin was jailed for manslaughter after he shot dead a teenage burglar in his remote farm in 1999. Two months ago, intruders killed a 49-year-old financier in his home off London's fashionable Kings Road and a few weeks earlier rock star Ozzy Osbourne had fought with burglars at his mansion just outside the capital.

"You are not expected to make fine judgments over the level of force you use in the heat of the moment," the guidelines said, "so long as you only do what you honestly and instinctively believe is necessary in the heat of the moment ... This is still the case if you use something to hand as a weapon."

They add that even if the intruder is killed, the homeowner can claim to have acted within the law so long as reasonable self-defense is proved.

But, the CPS warns, excessive force will be prosecuted.

The Nephilim
1st February 2005, 16:05
Oooh just in time as well. Nice to know those non sharp samurai swords I bought from the armouries may come in usefull after all. :laugh:

monkeyboy_ssj
2nd February 2005, 10:42
Yay! We can finally defend ourselves!

Seriously though, I still would even if it was illegal.

I remember one time some guys tried to kick down a mate's door for a laugh as his flat door was on the high street. He called the Cop Shop and they said to sit tight as all police are busy, they would be there in 20 minutes.

He said down the phone back "Don't worry, I've got a golf club, I'll sort it out, thanks anyway." and hung up.

The police were there in about 1 minute flat and arrested the drunks without my mate stepping out the door ;)

I think I'm a bit paranoid anyway, my garage got broken into once, but now it's very secure as well as my house due to the alarm system and double glazing.

Ruislip isn't that bad of a neighbourhood anyway, only have to worry about maybe a drunk fight but that is easily handled by throwing a Kabab down a stairway for them to follow...

I'm got my high power air pistol under my bed, AK 47 Bayonet at the head on my bed, Sword Rack to the side and in my rear room which looks other the garden and garage I've got my laser sighted AEG (Tokyo Marui SIG 552) with scope and silencer by the window. May not be a real gun but hurts like hell and makes you drop to the floor :)

The Nephilim
2nd February 2005, 20:59
Where are all the e-budo members complementing on the fact that Brits can now legally kill an intruder?

After all these threads on how we can do squat... suddenly all the advocates of self protection are now, it seems, silent.

Soulend
2nd February 2005, 23:45
Bravo, it appears that some recognize the most basic and self-evident of human rights - the right to protect your own life. Next up, Parliment shows support for the right to breathe.

Though I'm sure that it's wonderful that many women, elderly and infirm now have a confirmed right that they do not have the wherewithal to exercise.

The Nephilim
3rd February 2005, 08:24
Originally posted by Soulend
Bravo, it appears that some recognize the most basic and self-evident of human rights - the right to protect your own life. Next up, Parliment shows support for the right to breathe.

Though I'm sure that it's wonderful that many women, elderly and infirm now have a confirmed right that they do not have the wherewithal to exercise.

Well the UK has had it's fair share of silly laws and dumb ideas. We have had a glass tax. We even had a beard tax. And recently the poll tax (with no thanks to Mrs. T).

But there is just one problem with this new rule. We can not hurt them if they are attemting to run away:mad: Only if they are armed and they want to hurt you, then you can bounce their heads off of anything you want to.

I think I may go out and buy a shotgun (which is still legal in the UK) and claim that as a deterrent.

monkeyboy_ssj
3rd February 2005, 10:37
Originally posted by The Nephilim
Well the UK has had it's fair share of silly laws and dumb ideas. We have had a glass tax. We even had a beard tax. And recently the poll tax (with no thanks to Mrs. T).

But there is just one problem with this new rule. We can not hurt them if they are attemting to run away:mad: Only if they are armed and they want to hurt you, then you can bounce their heads off of anything you want to.

I think I may go out and buy a shotgun (which is still legal in the UK) and claim that as a deterrent.

Surely they are not running away if you are running after them and you are gaining on them since they are not getting 'away'?

Well, that's what I'll use as an excuse anyway :D

Sharp Phil
3rd February 2005, 11:31
It's too bad you're not allowed to possess any and all implements that might facilitate the killing of an intruder.

The Nephilim
3rd February 2005, 11:54
Originally posted by Sharp Phil
It's too bad you're not allowed to possess any and all implements that might facilitate the killing of an intruder.

Wrong. For years you could have legally owned a shotgun that can be used to kill. It is that the UK in general do not like the thought of some idiot taking a load of guns to school and killing children (Columbine and Dumblaine for example).

The Tony Martin case was a typical case of shooting an innocent while owning a shotgun. The only reason he was found guilty is that the child that was shot my Martin, was in no way attacking, but commiting a trespass violation.

Matt Molloy
3rd February 2005, 12:23
Originally posted by Sharp Phil
It's too bad you're not allowed to possess any and all implements that might facilitate the killing of an intruder.

Rubbish. You think we cut up bread and the Sunday roast with a non-sharp plastic knife?

There was also a case recently of a man fighting off some burglars with a wallhanger katana and he wasn't prosecuted.

Not to mention that I believe the object is to defend ourselves, not to kill the intruder.

We have always been allowed to defend ourselves, regardless of the scare stories, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we can own a load of automatic weaponry to do so, nor would we particularly want to.

Also, I believe that there is still a law hanging around on the statute books that obliges all Englishmen to undertake regular training with the bow and arrow on a Sunday under the watchful eye of a minister of the church or some such.

Kyudo anyone? ;)

Cheers,

Matt.

The Nephilim
3rd February 2005, 12:36
Originally posted by Matt Molloy

Also, I believe that there is still a law hanging around on the statute books that obliges all Englishmen to undertake regular training with the bow and arrow on a Sunday under the watchful eye of a minister of the church or some such.



That law was relaxed in the 1920's. But it is still one of the most dangerous weapons we brits have that is still legal. Even a crossbow is legal and is if not, far more dangerous than a longbow.

Matt Molloy
3rd February 2005, 12:43
Originally posted by The Nephilim
That law was relaxed in the 1920's. But it is still one of the most dangerous weapons we brits have that is still legal. Even a crossbow is legal and is if not, far more dangerous than a longbow.

Thanks. I didn't know about the crossbow. We'll have to re-instate the practice somehow. Knock on the door of the churchmen and remind them of their duty. :D

I can imagine the reaction.

Cheers,

Matt.

The Nephilim
3rd February 2005, 12:52
Originally posted by Matt Molloy
Thanks. I didn't know about the crossbow. We'll have to re-instate the practice somehow. Knock on the door of the churchmen and remind them of their duty. :D

I can imagine the reaction.

Cheers,

Matt.

Like Father Ted, they will do anything to get out of Mass. :laugh:

Sharp Phil
3rd February 2005, 13:53
but that doesn't necessarily mean that we can own a load of automatic weaponry to do so, nor would we particularly want to.

Statements like these illustrate why you don't understand the issue. Don't get me wrong; I'm glad your legal system has at least given lipservice to the idea that you're allowed to defend yourself. I just don't consider it the ringing affirmation that you do.

Matt Molloy
3rd February 2005, 15:15
Originally posted by Sharp Phil
Statements like these illustrate why you don't understand the issue. Don't get me wrong; I'm glad your legal system has at least given lipservice to the idea that you're allowed to defend yourself. I just don't consider it the ringing affirmation that you do.

And statements like your own show that you understand the British legal system very little if at all.

And as to the issue, it is home defense. That's all.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that you can post about "killing an intruder" with such a casual attitude. I just don't consider it the ringing affirmation of civil rights that you seem to.

Cheers,

Matt.

The Nephilim
3rd February 2005, 16:53
This is why when I asked whereare all the comments from the Americans over this, after this thread being a few days old, that they seemed to not really bother with it. Yet before hand the detracters of our "non fight back against intruders" threads seemed silent. Now that we can defend ourselves to a point, it seems that Phil wants us all to be like America and go all Gun mad at any creak the floorboards may care to offer in the night.

Phil, if you knew the British legal system in full, your comments will not be so outlandish and ignorant to the facts that is our system.

We have always had the right to defend ourselves, but we did not have the right to protect our homes from an agressor wishing to do harm. We can legally own a shotgun, but not harm enough to kill. We can own swords as they are the most common weapon of our Isle. And if the Government decide to ban swords, they are banning the cross of Christ as the sword is also historically seen as the cross. Longbow is still legal as it is considered a tool in the defense of the country.

We can legaly own a longbow of any poundage and use it legally. So a 120Lb pull longbow will cause more damage to a person that a 9mm round from a pistol in the drawer. Even a shotgun is more deadly with rocksalt (See the Tony Martin case and the thread nearly 2 years ago).

So if you want to talk about home defense, tell us the laws in the UK that are legal from where you sit in front of your PC. Can you name them or tell us about them in detail? :D

MikeWilliams
4th February 2005, 10:58
Originally posted by The Nephilim
We have always had the right to defend ourselves, but we did not have the right to protect our homes from an agressor wishing to do harm.

Yes we did. The law hasn't changed. This is just a clarification with new guidelines for prosecution.

We have always had the right to use proportionate force to defend ourselves or others, up to and including the use of lethal force.

The Nephilim
4th February 2005, 12:36
Now that the guidelines have been set intothe proverbial stone, the average joe public can have a fighting chance in court. Before the clarification, it was a hit and miss over what you could and could not do. Should you hit an intruder making off with your DVD player or let him run?

Now we can say that he did try to attack. After all it is his word against yours. But that is for the average person in their property. We, on the other hand, have another problem. We are trained MA people. Should we hit them and risk a counter lawsuit filed against us as we are quite able to defend ourselves in this situation. Yes, it is the criminal's bad luck to enter the property of someone who can defend themself against attact, but as soon as you say I do this style of MA, the police would love to know how much you know, for how long, belt/rank, capability and so on.

So now we have a dilemma for UK MA people. Do we declare on the sopt and risk a few days or questions or should we not say and be damned later on? The guidelines are for the average man to defend himself against attack. 100,000 people a year in the UK (rough estimate as to the figure banded about over the last few years) have undertaken some MA type of training. So on avarage at least a few hundred thousand may either keep quiet over their involvement in MA and risk it, or say outright and get more questions on how you did it ETC ETC ETC

So now you see the dilemma. How do you see it now people?

MikeWilliams
4th February 2005, 14:06
I'd be inclined to keep it quiet, except that if the cops came round to my house to investigate, it would be hard to hide all my gis/training gear/books/MMA DVDs... :D

Even if I could stuff it all in a cupboard in time, the smell of my old gis would probably give me away...

judepeel
4th February 2005, 14:20
OK I realise I'm lowering the tone of what seems to be quite a serious dicussion

Chester Laws
You can only shoot a Welsh person with a bow and arrow inside the city walls and after midnight.

Hereford Laws
You may not shoot a Welsh person on Sunday with a longbow in the Cathedral Close.

York Laws
Excluding Sundays, it is perfectly legal to shoot a Scotsman with a bow and arrow.

Us English can be a bit zenophobic when it comes to out celtic neighbours apparently.

www.dumblaws.com

I do remember sleeping on a friends sofa and at 1am believing someone was breaking into the back door. I picked up the nearest weapon, a glow in the dark toy light sabre and crept up to the back door. It turned out to be the neighbour returning home (the back doors are adjacent) however if it had been a thief I wonder what he would have make of being attacked by a midget in a rug-rags Tshirt with a lightsabre......

Matt Molloy
4th February 2005, 14:55
Originally posted by judepeel
OK I realise I'm lowering the tone of what seems to be quite a serious dicussion

Serious? Not at all. The Brits on this thread are poking fun. Some of our American brethren seem to be taking it waay too seriously though.


Originally posted by judepeel
Chester Laws
You can only shoot a Welsh person with a bow and arrow inside the city walls and after midnight.

Hereford Laws
You may not shoot a Welsh person on Sunday with a longbow in the Cathedral Close.

York Laws
Excluding Sundays, it is perfectly legal to shoot a Scotsman with a bow and arrow.

Us English can be a bit zenophobic when it comes to out celtic neighbours apparently.

Many thanks for this. I couldn't remember the exact laws but I'd heard them before. *Goes off to restring bow.* :D

Cheers,

Matt.

The Nephilim
4th February 2005, 16:33
Originally posted by judepeel
OK I realise I'm lowering the tone of what seems to be quite a serious dicussion

Chester Laws
You can only shoot a Welsh person with a bow and arrow inside the city walls and after midnight.

Hereford Laws
You may not shoot a Welsh person on Sunday with a longbow in the Cathedral Close.

York Laws
Excluding Sundays, it is perfectly legal to shoot a Scotsman with a bow and arrow.

Us English can be a bit zenophobic when it comes to out celtic neighbours apparently.

www.dumblaws.com



Another one that site does not have is the one in Halifax, West Yorkshire. You can duel on a Sunday, if it is a genuine grievance upon the steps of the Peace Hall in Halifax.

Isle of Man: You can kill a Scottish man if he leaves the boat and set foot onto the shore if carrying a Claymore. It is classed as an invasion.

And to add to the York laws... You can only kill a Scottish man with the bow and arrow, but only if you are on a horse and he is behind you.

As you can see, we are legally entitled not only in law but also by the Church and God to legally kill in any way as it is a historical law. Breaking and entering resulting in a fight and if it includes death of the intruder is now legal (only if the person is wanting to kill you though).