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MarkF
16th November 2000, 08:30
Kano Jigoro has been quoted as saying "...."Today randori is not practiced as it should be. In tournament competition the basic natural posture is being abandoned for stiff defensive postures. The resulting contest style judo is far from ideal..."

So what is the problem then? If Mr. Kano noted this seventy or more years ago, what style of randori has taken its place?

Mark

Arashi
16th November 2000, 12:02
Hi Mark.

We can only try to guess, isn't it? I believe that he is talking about those that being technicaly equal try to use strenght to overcome or to prevent the other fellow.
What do you think? Ganbatte.

Toni Rodrigues

maney
16th November 2000, 12:47
I think he meant that instead of responding naturally with economy of motion and energy, that now (then really though I suspect it is even worse now) judoka "fight" from assumed, unnatural, positions which are better designed for competition buteffectively degrade the nature of judo as well.

fpsm

MarkF
18th November 2000, 10:52
"...Practicing in the natural posture, points never to be neglected are: never use excessive force, always put strenght in shoulders, hips and limbs only as required, and always perform movements harmoniously in a controlled manner, according to your own volition.

"A second reason for current practices is that with the growth in the numbers of people practicing judo, there is a lack of qualified instructors world wide and standards have been compromised. Reinstitution of Kodokan style randori is surely one of the most pressing tasks facing the judo world today..."

I'm not sure if this is the word for word quote but I have used it so much that I'm sure it is very close.

"Harmoniously in a controlled manner." It doesn't really sound like judo at all, does it.


Actually there is a growing resurgence of "soft" judo on right now, and more and more teachers are teaching kata, both hard and soft, or, to borrow a term, "GoJu." But in a search for the softer side of judo, learning most kata, such as go no kata, or even the non-Kodokan kata called go no sen no kata, there must be balance. While there are fewer and fewer kata contests these days, John Cornish not only teaches kata, but he believes, as most koryu or aiki arts, that the soft side of randori can only be learned through a process of "randori no kata."

So what really is the problem then? With more and more potential or current students wanting to do original judo, the traditional judo does lean toward the way of ju, and less on the hard style.

I think many people regard judo as a sport, and that is fine with me, and therefore do not take it seriously, or do not stick around long enough to discover the ura, or the more serious side of this MA.

I think even more than a return to Kodokan randori there are many recent questions and newly discovered "old judo" which needs to be taught. The problem is of time. As in aiki arts, it is said one needs many decades to even open the door. There is no secret here, but ask the average person what he thinks judo is, and then open up a book, and show him the go no sen empty handed against sword attacks and suddenly the pages are being turned.

Professor Kano and the original builders of the curriculum laid it out in an order in which much thought went, and basically, the syllabus was laid out with nage no kata being the prime part of judo (as well as ukemi waza), then they said newaza was second, and atemiwaza was last. This isn't to say the three ways had to be done as such, but this was the order of importance, but no where is kata to be forgotten entirely. I've found most teachers taught randori because it was easy, but randori no kata, is not. "If there is only one choice then nage waza must be this choice. (slightly paraphrased).

Rant over, for the time being.:) I used to challenge myself to play randori and to time how long or how many times I could perform a throw without repeating myself. This is a real challenge, as it makes for good questions, and a reason for everything in balance. I also have found that most teachers teach with little pieces of kata, as there is rarely another way.

Perhaps this newly found interest in old judo is for the best. Most blame it on the Olympics, but the blame is still exactly where Kano says it was. If you look, on the net there are more and more sites dedicated to old judo. Try http://www.kanosociety.org . It is fairly new but is dedicated to the preservation of traditional judo. Contest judo is still there, as this played an important role in the beginnings of judo. Certainly the contests were not about winning at all costs, but championships are.

Take a look at the harmony of judo and ask again if it is "martial sport," or "sport judo," etc. It is there no doubt, but it doesn't have to be all pervasive. I think twenty years of cometition have not harmed anyone, but there is another store out back and someone has to run it.:up:

Any comments?

Mark

MarkF
25th February 2001, 19:33
I bumped this thread because I wanted to get more answers to, especially what Fredrich Maney said:


I think he meant that instead of responding naturally with economy of motion and energy, that now (then really though I suspect it is even worse now) judoka "fight" from assumed, unnatural, positions which are better designed for competition buteffectively degrade the nature of judo as well.



Since the word fight is in quotes, and that he said that judoka "fight" from assumed, unnatural, positions which are better designed for competition buteffectively degrade the nature of judo as well.

If anything, judoka do not fight from assumed and unnatural postions. The minimum effort does not allow this, nor was it designed for competition per se, but the everday fighting and contests held by koryu which had a huge jump in numbers of contests amoung koryu, but with Resoration or meiji, came a time to put down the swords and move it inside. Judo was never degraded (i'm not speaking of internation judo, but this too, is fighting), it simply replaced the battles which took place.

Do you think that randori/shiai or just "fooling around" is lost to us? Isn't randori classified as a combative art by Dr. Karl Koiwai (his exact term was "judo is a combative sport like boxing"). I don't think so. Randori is the closest most will get to the practical aspect, and no part of judo has ever been degraded, except perhaps, in the rules of international shiai. It may be judo, but it is fighting. Taking hard throws over the years causes damage, unless on is another K.Mifune, therefore it is much like boxing, but it is still judo. All and more of judo is still alive, but in the concept of kata.

Mark

Yamantaka
25th February 2001, 20:30
Dear Mark San,

I know that's a sensitive point and I congratulate you for bringing it on focus.
I watch many competitive fights in Judo and my conclusion is always the same : Unnatural, defensive postures and the excessive use of force. I'd say that the situation is worst now than in Kano's time. Kano was an intelligent man and when he said that the trend he observed would kill judo, he had his reasons.
Another problem is, as it was correctly pointed out, TIME. When you practice for competition (as the great majority does), you have no time for a balanced study of judo(Kata, Randori and weapons). The concentration is in training for competition.
You say there's been a return to kata and "the old ways". WHERE? Apart from the Kano Society(which few people know about) and one or two old-timers who love kata, where is that "trend" towards the roots of old judo? I really don't see it. If you train judo as a martial art (in all its aspects), you'll lose consistently in competition. You have to put emphasis in competition to win in competition. A balanced training will produce a more artistic form of judo, but not a competitive one, in my opinion. The arena of competition is an unnatural one, that demands unnatural training. You do not find the competitive conditions of a match in everyday life.
Also, in the old times, many of the first judoka had experience in jujutsu, atemi and weapons, so there was no need to teach every movement to them. After so many years of competitive judo and the withdrawal from kata training, we have to rediscover the wheel : learn weapons and correct atermi. Today's kata, in my opinion, is poorly executed, with bad atemi and bad weapons' use. Also, kata is not executed with combative spirit but in an automaton-like way. The last time I saw a good kata (Nage no Kata, at that) was in a demonstration by a group of the Japanese Navy and in a demonstration in Japan at a dojo in the Imperial Palace(Koshiki no Kata and Itsutsu no Kata). That was about 1975. Since them, all other demonstrations that I saw were very poor.
Concluding, I sincerely believe that competition has really spoiled Judo and also that in his late years, Kano Sensei (already left out of Kodokan decisions) lamented the way things were going. I don't believe there's a return to the old ways (as you propose). To really change, in my view, Judo would have to do the opposite thing : abandon competition (as kata was abandoned in favor of competition) to rebuild the study of judo along the lines of an art and later seek balance. Otherwise, Judo will keep in its way, emphasizing competition and getting weak in all other points. And competition is getting monotonous to the public (no risks, no derring-do, no emotions...), with the "danger" of Judo being expelled from the Olympics.
That's my honest opinion. What you guys do think?
Best

will szlemko
26th February 2001, 06:51
Hi all,

Perhaps the goal of randori is to not fight but to co-operate. Where I train in Jujutsu we start beginner randori by having them pair with a yudansha. At first the yudansha gives them opening so that they get used to seeing and moving when an opening is present. The next phase is for the yudansha to move and let them find their own openings, however the yudansha still lets them get the throw. Next phase is to stop letting them throw you and to rely on movement, sensitivity and balance to be unthrowable. The next step is to have the yudansha begin countering. Finally full randori. This process takes longer to produce good results but som of the benefits are that both sides are actively learning. There is no competition and technique can be made much cleaner. When I have randoired with jodoka I typically have a much more upright posture as well as a much more relaxed grip. Despite what I am told are grave disatvantages in randori I am often more difficult to throw than those judoka who assume defensive posture. Perhaps randori is not about competition but only learning and improvement.

will

MarkF
26th February 2001, 11:23
Thank you Ubaldo and Will for responding. Yes, the so-called return to what I call "original judo" is small, nevertheless, it is happening. The events of late in Louisiana say so in part, as they did/do have kata tournaments.

Kano was out of the loup by 1930 but was concerned about the lack of good teachers being the reasons for "non-Kodokan" randori. With the growth spurt, this is not a surprise.

Kano believed also that when working out for the shiai on the weekend (or whenever) that if one sticks with learning the waza, one will lose through probably half of one's shiai "career." But he also said that by improving your waza, eventually one would win more often. Mifune believed that in the kata is the winning form for randori/shiai.

And Will, your way of teaching randori or nage waza through matching a beginner with yudansha, and your description is not so far removed from the way I and many others do it.

I have always believed practice of the techniques in randori, to be a give and take kind of thing, while one should move with correct tsugi ashi, kuzushi, etc., I also don't have regular resistant uke style randori. Instead, it is a give and take, so that both players get the feel of the waza, both as tori and uke.

My resistance randori, usually takes place in the little intra-squad shiai at the dojo. Not everyone can fight every night, but observing is also important, and when done well, it can be acknowledged with ippon or wazaari awasate ippon, or whatever the outcome.
It doesn't mean it is always like this, as when practicing certain throws, katamiwaza, and combinations of such, transition is practiced as would one on the shiai basho.

I completely leave international and most national tournaments out when I speak of competition. When a player must look to the referee to hear/see the call, well it is just too complicated and much has been erased.

But believe it or not, as Will can attest in what he teaches, there is a return, or a semblance of this today. Only about one-quarter of my class competes, and most can fit in my car to go to a tournament.
*****
I was really speaking of judo itself, not judoka, or teachers, because if looked on in that way, then yes, there is little, but much more than, say twenty years ago.

Traditional means to me "do like this" then doing it, or trying. The traditional teacher does this because he knows no other way. I prefer it to be original judo, and little by little, it is slow, but an attempt to do it as they did it.

Most teachers who are my peers, teach by showing the nage, for example, in steps, and building this steps into a good technique, eg, kata, or pieces, anyway.

So my question wasn't necessarily how it affected the judo player, but how it affects judo. Observers of Kanos early classes, wondered at the matchups of two players, from one room to the other, and "wrestling" jacketed, throwing each other with great force. I doubt Kano was ephasizing strength in his judo, or was, but in the way of minimalizing it.

Yukio Tani performed his judo on the stage against all comers, and the rumor was, that he was never defeated. He accomplished that with the principles of ju, but probably was not the best of venue to do so.
*****

In Kodokan judo (I think it is still in the newer versions), randori was one of seven kata, randori no kata. If performed and practiced as such, does it really matter what others do or believe, think?

I was always taught that Kano's "club" was for a minority of people, and why he generalized it for anyone willing. Yes, there are ony the few attempting this return to original judo, but does that really matter? Woudn't it not be better to attract those students from the four nage dojo by the example one sets and by egoless practice of judo? Certainly, there are few, but I don't think the club was really meant for these numbers, but only those willing to put in what they can, however they can.

So when a statement about this return, may indeed be small, how else do you find these fine players? Aikido has been the "flavor of the month" for a long time, so how many are really doing it as it was meant? Probably a small percentage, I imagine, and so it is with judo.

I have a tape with English explanations for many, many waza, with most of the demonstrations first done by two in perfect motion, then it is shown, by judoka such as Yasuhiro Yamashita, Yoshimi Masaki and Hitoshi Saito, amounst others, demostrating the same waza in shiai. These guys knew judo, and Yamashita in particular, as big as he is, the technique is a thing of beauty.

*****

My opinion, then, on how randori should be done, is to do it, working over and over on a single waza, or free randori, and give and take some. Waza improves because only the places specified originally will have it only when necessary, and will not be filled with brawn and muscle. Degradation of judoka, certainly. Degredation of Judo? No. It is still there, for those who are attracted to the best by the best. No trophies in the windows of these judoka. They may participate, but if one is only judged by how good he is today, then what is the reason for conitinuing? You have to love it to do that. Certainly all these dojo serve a higher purpose, and that they will produce one or two meant to do it well, so that is my explanation for a return to good judo. Just a few? Of course. No one is promised the entire ball of wax, it must be felt.

Chuck Clark
26th February 2001, 16:14
Hello all,

The problem is that most judoka in the West have never spent enough time with a teacher of sufficient skill and experience to learn to randori. Most think randori is "shiai-but-not quite."

Many see ukemi as losing and subconsciously don't want to lose. Ukemi is a large part of learning judo (or aikido).

Randori is paradoxical in that both people should be trying to throw and counter one hundred percent of the time, but no one really cares who gets thrown as long as the waza was good. Both sides learn from the experience. Randori is a managed, competitive form of training which allows those taking part to create problems to be solved.

There are also drills which might look like randori to some, but are just training methods to reinforce certain aspects of training. For example, Shido geiko when a senior "leads" a junior in new areas or gives openings for the junior to catch and make techniques. Butsukari geiko when the junior attacks repeatedly to try and throw the senior who counters (this is quite exhausting for the junior!). This can also be done by taking turns in the senior roll by judoka of relatively similar skill levels.

Randori can be done at various levels of energy, speed, and power. From very slow to all out, how ever, the partners never really care who makes the throw because both learn from the experience.

As mentioned by several knowledgeable people already, proper posture, movement, and intent to make ippon waza are of great importance.

Good randori with someone who knows how to do it is one of the real joys in life.

Regards,

Yamantaka
26th February 2001, 20:55
Originally posted by Chuck Clark
Hello all,
Randori can be done at various levels of energy, speed, and power. From very slow to all out, how ever, the partners never really care who makes the throw because both learn from the experience.
As mentioned by several knowledgeable people already, proper posture, movement, and intent to make ippon waza are of great importance.
Regards,

YAMANTAKA : Thank you very much for your post, Sensei! My point (perhaps badly done...) was exactly that :
a) I don't believe the majority of today's judoka are really careless about WHO makes the throw and are only seeking to learn from the experience; and
b) I also do not see a lot of preocupation about proper posture, movement and intent to do good waza.
That's not to say that judo isn't a very good art or that there aren't very good teachers (very few, but very good...)
My best regards

MarkF
28th February 2001, 11:33
Well, if I could state my point[s], I wouldn't need you two.:)

Bob Steinkraus
28th February 2001, 17:49
Much food for thought in all of this.

My $.02 worth? Good randori does not depend on posture or use of force, but on attitude.

Good randori is practice designed to bring about good judo. Good judo is that which effectively implements the principles of "best use of energy" and "mutual welfare and benefit".

Good randori can be done from jigotai, and I frankly think Kano's idea of everybody "making nice" and never using force is not the best preparation for shiai or the street, or even when you do randori with a strong beginner. Some people are going to use strength, and we teach them to do better not with talk but by demonstrating that power is but one part of the triad (power, technique, and a well prepared mind).

That having been said, certainly do-or-die, turn-out-of-every-throw, do-the-same-techniques-as-I-have-for-years randori is not as much fun (for me) as randori with people who are determined to do their best, but are willing to try new things for practice, even if they get countered the first few times, and don't lose sleep if somebody else brings off a good technique.

One of the reasons I quit competitive shiai, frankly, is that randori (in the spirit I have described) is more fun than shiai. The dirty truth of it is, competition just isn't any fun unless you win, and one loss cancels out a lot of wins.

I frankly never practiced kata until shortly before my shodan exam, and never even was taught any katas beside nage-no-kata and katame-no-kata. I have seen ju-no-kata performed, but that one (and koshiki-no-kata and itutsu-no-kata[sp?]) just never appealed to me as preparation for anything much. And that "physical education" kata whose name slips my mind strikes me as just silly. Nobody punches like that, and if they do, they are going to get clobbered.

I am sure there is some deep inner meaning to all those katas that I don't know about, but if I want to prepare for shiai, or the street, or even club randori, give me a hundred moving uchikomi over a hundred repetitions of three-step uki-otoshi anytime.

Or so it seems to me, from my limited experience, mediocre ability, and complete lack of national or international success.

MarkF
1st March 2001, 10:51
Hi, Bob,
Kano never said not to use strength at all, and what you read in the Kodokan's "committee book" Kodokan Judo is not what Kano said, but what the Kodokan says.

"Making nice nice" as you say is not a one way street, but what he actually said was to "take care of business and get out of there" in BOB-speak.:D

Kano also said he could teach you (very general you) to kill, he just didn't recommend it if you were to apply the lessons of judo to your life.

And on strength (I'll let you find it, I'm not going to tear another page of my classic Kodokan Judo), Kano said that there were; first, not enough good teachers (implication here is that there are too many students to teach correctly), second; that contest judo is largely using strength to overcome or to come over, and that a return to Kodokan (IOW, his randori) randori was of prime importance. He also never meant that no strength was necessary, but the proper strength put into only the shoulders and hips (and hands. If you read descriptions of early judoka, some had stubby and bent fingers from gripping [or as Dr. Dai Soke Grandmaster Irving Soto and, well Gene LeBell said, "grippling"] ).

In other words, hara or center is where the strength comes, and to be a "soft judoka" until precisely necessary to place the strength where it belonged. Jon Bluming is kudan in Kodokan Judo and he did what he did with weight training as did Donn Draeger (remember the Imperial Palace incident?)

He was also misquoted. It was the government who insitutionalized judo into the public school system. That quote, or the translation of it is way off.

The point was minimizing the use of strength, and the "making nice nice," was only to an opponent, or other "player" as he called judoka, but has never been quoted saying it should be applied even when it isn't safe to do so. His only point was to get it over and get out while both still were breathing, if possible. (Mark-speak)

Another misconception is that he approved of Judo as an Olympic Game because "judo is not a game."

MarkF
1st March 2001, 11:13
Here is a link you should read if you haven't all ready, just so you don't think I've always been so defensive about judo. I played the shiai circuit for nearly twenty years because it was fun to meet up with old opponents, and because it felt good throwing people through the floor.:up:

http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=3658

Mark

BTW: Don't be mislead by the title or how it begins.

edg176
17th March 2001, 20:30
Hi,

I've followed this thread with great interest since it started, since although the bulk of my practice is Hapkido and Eskrima Serrada, I've also worked out with the U.C. Berkeley Judo club to "cross-train" over the last year or so. So please forgive me if my question is a little simplistic.

Throughout this thread, the general consensus seems to be that competition is destroying/destroyed the ideals of Kodokan judo. I can follow the logic, but I'm a little confused because it doesn't seem to reflect what I (and I admit my experience is limited) have seen. At our club there are a few guys who also train at Cahill's in San Francisco and compete on a national level. There is also a gentleman who played at the collegiate level in Japan.

When I watch them randori, it doesn't seem stiff or "strength oriented" at all....it seems quick and efficient. Yes they often end up in what looks like a 60/40 sidestance (for lack of a better term) but it seems to be only a momentary transitional stage. Also, the power they generate isn't just local arm strength but instead
is clearly coming up from the legs as a sort of "whole body" endevor. Which, to me, (and again, what do I know?) seems to be a model of efficient use of force.

So I'm a little bit confused....is that wrong? What should it look like? And if it is "wrong" where can I go to see "right"? I don't want to come across as disrespectful to all the experienced practitioners on E-budo, but I'm really curious/confused.

Respectfully,
Tim Fong

MarkF
18th March 2001, 11:18
Major problems are with the international scene concerning championships at the world's, Olympics, etc., but it doesn't have to be like that in a local area. Rules are so cluttered that it doesn't allow for the great waza from decades past, and even then, those who are still around from the pre-war judo days, or were relocated during that time say judo has never been the same.

I just noticed that I didn't say in my post that it wasn't a paraphrase, so if that is the problem, I apologize for that. He did say it, but I didn't look for the exact quote.

This is what he did say, although you must understand that there isn't much that is purely quoted from him these days concerning this.

<Unfortunately, in many dojo today randori is not practiced as it should be. One reason is the stress on training for competition. In tournament competition, participants tend to abandon the basic natural posture and assume stiff defensive postures. The resulting contest-style judo is far from ideal.
Practicing in the natural posture, points never to be neglected are: never use excessive force, always put strength in shoulders, hips, and limbs only as required, and always perform movements harmoniously in a controlled way, according to your onm volition.
> A second reason for current practices is that with the growth in the number of people practicing judo, there is a lack of qualified instructors world-wide and standards have been compromised. Reinstitution of Kodokan style [read as original style] randori is surely one of the most pressing tasks facing the judo world today.>

I do not think Mr. Kano was speaking of even that day's Kodokan Judo, but what he and the other founders had described as "proper." With the shiai being put in the foreground as the most important accomplishment in judo, it forced them to teach or do judo by "muscling" as this did not take nearly so long to achieve. The problem here, too, is that most international judo coaches only teach about seven nagewaza, and all for the competitor to use to his advantage, or favorite (tokui waza) throw[s].

Most are out of competition by age thirty (yes, there are still some "masters" competitions, but it still isn't the same, IMO) and muscle wears quickly. Since the principal of "maximum efficiency with minimum effort" was the crux of good judo, as it was thought one could, if practiced this way, never to tire, as the need for strength was miniscule. Patience wears thin, though, when weight training and other not so traditional methods are used to get in shape. The founders thought by practicing waza, by kata and randori, that this efficiency comes naturally, and why judoka such as the late Mifune Kyuzo played judo with very good results well into their final years.
*****

So this may be the way of those you have seen practice, practicing good kuzushi, centering, or the "hara" and particularly, being relaxed until the moment one needs said strength which should come from the hips and shoulders, only (and the hands for gripping).

Weight training does get you there more quickly, but the three or for nage one uses to success in shiai doesn't hold up well in later years, at least that is the opinion of Mr. Kano, Mr. Mifune, and others well up into old age.

Anyway, I hope this helps, Tim.

Oh, and welcome to E-budo!:wave:

Mark

indomaster
29th March 2001, 23:50
Originally posted by MarkF
"...Practicing in the natural posture, points never to be neglected are: never use excessive force, always put strenght in shoulders, hips and limbs only as required, and always perform movements harmoniously in a controlled manner, according to your own volition.

"A second reason for current practices is that with the growth in the numbers of people practicing judo, there is a lack of qualified instructors world wide and standards have been compromised. Reinstitution of Kodokan style randori is surely one of the most pressing tasks facing the judo world today..."

I'm not sure if this is the word for word quote but I have used it so much that I'm sure it is very close.

"Harmoniously in a controlled manner." It doesn't really sound like judo at all, does it.


Actually there is a growing resurgence of "soft" judo on right now, and more and more teachers are teaching kata, both hard and soft, or, to borrow a term, "GoJu." But in a search for the softer side of judo, learning most kata, such as go no kata, or even the non-Kodokan kata called go no sen no kata, there must be balance. While there are fewer and fewer kata contests these days, John Cornish not only teaches kata, but he believes, as most koryu or aiki arts, that the soft side of randori can only be learned through a process of "randori no kata."

So what really is the problem then? With more and more potential or current students wanting to do original judo, the traditional judo does lean toward the way of ju, and less on the hard style.

I think many people regard judo as a sport, and that is fine with me, and therefore do not take it seriously, or do not stick around long enough to discover the ura, or the more serious side of this MA.

I think even more than a return to Kodokan randori there are many recent questions and newly discovered "old judo" which needs to be taught. The problem is of time. As in aiki arts, it is said one needs many decades to even open the door. There is no secret here, but ask the average person what he thinks judo is, and then open up a book, and show him the go no sen empty handed against sword attacks and suddenly the pages are being turned.

Professor Kano and the original builders of the curriculum laid it out in an order in which much thought went, and basically, the syllabus was laid out with nage no kata being the prime part of judo (as well as ukemi waza), then they said newaza was second, and atemiwaza was last. This isn't to say the three ways had to be done as such, but this was the order of importance, but no where is kata to be forgotten entirely. I've found most teachers taught randori because it was easy, but randori no kata, is not. "If there is only one choice then nage waza must be this choice. (slightly paraphrased).

Rant over, for the time being.:) I used to challenge myself to play randori and to time how long or how many times I could perform a throw without repeating myself. This is a real challenge, as it makes for good questions, and a reason for everything in balance. I also have found that most teachers teach with little pieces of kata, as there is rarely another way.

Perhaps this newly found interest in old judo is for the best. Most blame it on the Olympics, but the blame is still exactly where Kano says it was. If you look, on the net there are more and more sites dedicated to old judo. Try http://www.kanosociety.org . It is fairly new but is dedicated to the preservation of traditional judo. Contest judo is still there, as this played an important role in the beginnings of judo. Certainly the contests were not about winning at all costs, but championships are.

Take a look at the harmony of judo and ask again if it is "martial sport," or "sport judo," etc. It is there no doubt, but it doesn't have to be all pervasive. I think twenty years of cometition have not harmed anyone, but there is another store out back and someone has to run it.:up:

Any comments?

Mark






Hai mark,

judo is dynamic in this way it is not only soft but actually also 'hard'.
the movements must be soft and hard at the same time and here
is the problem, this is not an isue of original judo or sport judo or whatever.
It's still the human executing those techniques, if the person executing these
judotechniques can be soft and hard the same time than it's effective.
The question is ;how can I be soft and hard the same time??
Concentrate on the soft first(learn to accept the role as uke for a long time)
Besides learning breakfalls it teaches U to be soft and to feel the throw of tori.
After this stage...learning kuzushi is most important ,this can only be learned when the muscles
are relaxed otherwise feeling of balance is not possible.
Learning to attack is the next stage,here U learn to isue your energy in a technique.
Soft and hard in one movement is the result.
Besides ,in asia the meaning of the word 'soft' has a different concept.
Soft means knowing how to use your energy in a sensible manner,just like the money
in your pocket(I hope).
You can only spend your money in a sensible way when you know 'how much money'
you have to start...it's the same with your energy (how much do you have to spend??)
Sorry for my bad english(in Indonesia we don't speak english that often.)

By

eric kasanwidjojo

MarkF
30th March 2001, 08:22
"Hai" Eric,
Welcome to E-budo! Your English is just fine, and thanks for the "sensible" description of what I was trying to say.

It's true, what you do say, but unfortunately there is little time to cultivate proper "Ju" kuzushi, etc., if the prime target is the contest. I think most understand it, but as the age approaches when one wants to compete, "muscling" is the shorter, most oft used manner. And just when you are beginning to learn this, your competitive career is coming to an end, but then it never was meant to be easy.

So no arguement here, at least from me.:wave:

Mark

Ben Reinhardt
30th March 2001, 15:36
Mark wrote:

Thank you Ubaldo and Will for responding. Yes, the so-called return to what I call "original judo" is small, nevertheless, it is happening. The events of late in Louisiana say so in part, as they did/do have kata tournaments.

+++Ben Reinhardt+++
Mark and all,

Kata contests have been held at Senior Nationals for years...Kata contest was held at the Pan Am Games last year...Kata contests are not that unusual. The USJF holds a junior national kata contest along with their junior nationals.

Lots of people are doing judo kata these days, gentlemen. There has been a focus from the USJF and USJI to reestablish kata and standards for kata in the USA.

That said, most people focus on randori. Randori, according to my copy of Kodokan Judo, is supposed to be the focus of Judo training. Kata is supposed to be, what, 25% 30% ?

That said, too many folks turn randori into mock shiai. But it's funny, most places I go people realize this and emphasize the learning aspects of randori. I'm sure this varies around the country, and from country to country, however, most reasonably knowledgeable judoka I know DONT treat randori as shiai.

Randori can have various levels of intensity...from soft and "give and take" to very high intensity.

I will also say that most people who do judo today (in the USA at least) do NOT compete, certainly not on a regular basis. Most aren't registered with any organization, either.

Finally, the number of teachers who REALLY know what your are calling traditional Judo is TINY. Many claim, but few are really qualified. How many are left who learned from teachers how to incorporate atemin with throwing...I mean beyond the goshin jutsu and kime no kata ? How many REALLY know and UNDERSTAND the ura techniques that 99% of judoka have never heard of ? How many are just incorporating various karate atemi into Judo....and claiming it's "Authentic Traditional Judo". A lot, I reckon.

I don't claim to know anything about the ura of Judo techniques and kata. The first time I ever heard about it was on the Judo-L, where Steve Cunningham has some good essays posted (his web site). There's a reason for that: Not many people REALLY know and have learned the authentic stuff from authentic teachers.

Judo is large, very large. It encompasses sport, goshin, recreation, etc. It'a all Judo, let's not for get that. We can all learn from each other, traditional, Olympic, or otherwise.

Ben Reinhardt

William F. Kincaid
30th March 2001, 22:42
Well it has been along time since I have posted here. This was mainly due to a back injury, rejoining the National Guard, and going back to school to get my Bachelors degree.

So forgive me I just breezed these posts.

As for what Kano meant by overly stiff and defensive postures could easily mean that maybe the Judoka are just too interested in winning to practice the Judo that Kano is talking about. I understand that Tourn. is about winning and not losing, and that one should play to win. I really have no problem with this but you must either draw the line between good Judo and winning, or come up with another idea.

My class on the other hand has come up with an interesting solution. Have class randori where the focus is on learning and not winning, and for the tourn. bound people extra time is spent on tourn. Randori to prepare them. The class randori focuses on true judo with trying out new techs. that a judoka has learned and to learn to blend tech. and transistion (sp) of techs. this type of Randori I will limit upper belts, limit Techs., slow down the pace, and so forthe. There I also do not put a gender or weight limit on this type of randori. Tourn randori on the other hand lets the Judoka work on his or her favorite techs. in prep. for a tourn. they are paired off near there own weight and gender and so forthe.

Hope that helps.

MarkF
31st March 2001, 09:10
Hey, Ben,
You won't get an argument out of me. Of course there has always been kata and specialists in that alone. Randori no kata is what I call "give and take." But yes, nicely covered in your post.

Will,
I used to play a game, something which I do try to instill on students today. This may be very common, I'm not sure, but I got it from music. I practice *atonal* exercises on the trumpet, making sure every note is a singluar one, not only in tone and octave, but in beat, style (double, triple tonguing, etc.), length (stacatto, marcatto), high notes, and low. While there are only seven whole notes, etc., all can be played with different intent.

Applying it to judo pretty much is the same. All nage has many variations, such as makikomi, different application to shiai from kata, left and right side, gaeshi, and this too can go on and on, if you think about it. It seems to help with transition even when going for the same nage, or the same osae, shime, etc., it can, for the more senior student easily take up the hour and a half of class time, with few repeated exactly the same way.

As mentioned by Ben, there are many ways of doing randori. Most don't go to shiai, that does seem to be a constant.

Mark

Ben Reinhardt
2nd April 2001, 15:22
Originally posted by William F. Kincaid
Well it has been along time since I have posted here. This was mainly due to a back injury, rejoining the National Guard, and going back to school to get my Bachelors degree.

So forgive me I just breezed these posts.

As for what Kano meant by overly stiff and defensive postures could easily mean that maybe the Judoka are just too interested in winning to practice the Judo that Kano is talking about. I understand that Tourn. is about winning and not losing, and that one should play to win. I really have no problem with this but you must either draw the line between good Judo and winning, or come up with another idea.

My class on the other hand has come up with an interesting solution. Have class randori where the focus is on learning and not winning, and for the tourn. bound people extra time is spent on tourn. Randori to prepare them. The class randori focuses on true judo with trying out new techs. that a judoka has learned and to learn to blend tech. and transistion (sp) of techs. this type of Randori I will limit upper belts, limit Techs., slow down the pace, and so forthe. There I also do not put a gender or weight limit on this type of randori. Tourn randori on the other hand lets the Judoka work on his or her favorite techs. in prep. for a tourn. they are paired off near there own weight and gender and so forthe.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for sharing !

This is all very reasonable, of course. I do the same things in my classes and in my own training. Personally I think that, especially for beginners, that "learning" randori, is the most important. Higher level people can go at it harder and still learn. I find that even my beginners do better in shiai (with other beginners) because they know how to throw from all the "learning" randori and nage drills I have them do. When push comes to shove, if you haven't been throwing in class, you won't do it in shiai.

Regards,

Ben Reinhardt