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ultrajohan
16th November 2000, 10:17
I read in another thread someone mention that there were different definitions of Aiki in Aikijujutsu, aikido and judo etc.

Can someone please tell how Aiki is defined in these different styles and maybe differences between different Aikijujutsu styles?

Regards
Johan Svensson



[Edited by ultrajohan on 11-16-2000 at 05:56 AM]

MarkF
16th November 2000, 11:09
That is the question of the year, it seems. BTW: Welcome to the forums at E-budo!:)

The answer is given in another thread concerning Kondo S. new book, and the translated interviews with the late Takeda Tokimune S. at http://www.koryu.com .

Since aiki is apparently found in most tai jutsu Japanese fighting styles, each one defines aiki on its own terms. The definition, and apparently, the aiki practiced by the daito ryu is found only in DR, but aiki no jutsu is practiced only by those of DR, as a separate and distinct form from jujutsu, even though the DR school incorporates jujutsu independent of aiki no jutsu, and together with same. Aiki technique is practiced by DR, but others have a curriculum of aiki no jutsu as well. Aiki of judo isn't so different in "feel" than other aiki, but the main difference is in "softening" the style of judo, so as to "feel" aiki. While there is no aiki no jutsu in judo, there definitely is aiki, and can be practiced, but not independently of the jujutsu of judo. But since judo is "a way of life," according to the founder, and aikibudo is really "jutsu," then independent practice of the same aiki no jutsu is not possible. However, it is possible to do DR jujutsu without incorporation of aiki no jutsu, but it seems that aiki is a goal rather than jujutsu.

Eeeow! Does this make any sense? I haven't had my ice cream yet.:wave:

Mark

Nathan Scott
16th November 2000, 18:55
Eeeow! Does this make any sense?

Ummm... O.K.

Not a subject that is easy to discuss, that is for sure.

Following are some notes I've taken for an (investigative) essay that I've been meaning to write on this subject, fWIW:

<p>Takeda Tokimune Soke, Nidai Daito ryu Aikijujutsu, defined Aiki in "Daito ryu
Aikijujutsu" / S. Pranin, pg. 53:</p>

<p>"Aiki is to pull when pushed, and to push when you are pulled. It is the
spirit of slowness and speed, of harmonizing your movement with your opponent's
ki. It's opposite, Kiai, is to push the limit, while Aiki never resists."</p>

**

quoted from e-budo.com, Aikijujutsu forum by Mike Campagna 4/2000:

I will now present to you the three principles of [Daito ryu Aikijujutsu] Roppokai aiki (as explained by Okamoto Seigo Sensei).

<ul>1. Conditioned response (uke)</ul>
<ul>2. Circular motion</ul>
<ul>3. Controlled breathing</ul>

**

Okamoto sensei says, "aiki is when you and your opponent become one". But what does that mean? One in what way or ways? (e-budo.com/Keen)

**

"Aiki, the core concept of aikido, can be traced back to martial arts literature of the Edo era. According to "Toka Mondo" (trans: Candlelight Discussion), written by the master of Kito-ryu Jujutsu in 1764, aiki means that two fighters come to a standstill in a martial arts bout when they have focused their attention on each other's breathing."

Prof. Fumiaki Shishida, Waseda University

**

Aiki as described by Katsuyuki Kondo sensei, of Daito-ryu, is off balancing at the moment of contact. So the very second the uke or the attacker makes any sort of contact with you, they should be off balanced already. When they strike you, the instant your hand touches them with a block, parry, or other such defense they should be off balanced. Many times with very small taisabaki the uke will be pulled off balance, and straight in to a punch or other atemi. So
Ate-waza is very important in Daito-ryu aikijujutsu to create instant off balancing, which Kondo sensei calls aiki. This might be a dumbed down concept, Kondo sensei gave us just to make learning easy, I don't know. I susspect that
aiki in Daito-ryu is far more complex then that.

(e-budo.com)

**

Aiki in our school can be defined as "those methods or techniques that decieve or effect the opponent's senses". In a philisophical sense you can say that these technique off-balance the opponent mentally. But physical contact is
not necessary. - Yanagi ryu, Don Angier Soke

(e-budo.com/Richard Elias)

**

Ki is "bioelectricity" - Dr. Yang-Jwing Ming


If anyone has any quotes to add to these, I'd be happy to have them. Also, if your quoted here or know who is and I've not properly credited them, please let me know.

Hope this helps,

Nathan Scott

Cady Goldfield
16th November 2000, 19:27
This is reminding me about the old Indian tale of the 5 blind men and the elephant. Each felt a different part of the pachyderm's body, and thus believed that an elephant was, respectively, like a snake, a rope, a tree trunk, a huge piece of flat leather, and a piece of polished stone.

Perhaps aspects of aiki can be described as all of these things and more, but until you get a holistic exposure to the breadth and depth of its applications, you ain't gonna see the entire elephant, only discrete bits and pieces.

Cady

jzimba
16th November 2000, 19:43
I've noticed the folks associated with the Roppokai branch tend to keep bringing up the points about breath
There's the quote from Brently, and Howard making the coment about breath taking the shape of the technique.
I'd enjoy hearing more about this, both from them and from other schools
thanks,

Joel

Mark Jakabcsin
16th November 2000, 22:03
Cady makes a good point but I still find the discussion interesting. Here are a few quotes for whatever they are worth:

- Morihei Ueshiba explained it this way, “Aiki is the power of harmony, of all beings, all things working together.” Page 19 of The Spirit of Aikido, by K. Ueshiba.

- Kenji Tomiki wrote, “Aiki means making your spirit ‘fit’ with your opponents. In other words it means bringing your movements in accord with your opponent’s. After all it means the same thing as the ‘principle of gentleness’, for it is an explanation of the principle from within.” Page 101 of Judo and Aikido, by Kenji Tomiki.

- Gozo Shioda described it this way, “ Harmonizing of energy, means to lose your own ego; it is the technique of submitting to the natural flow of the universe.” Page 17, Total Aikido the Master Course, by Gozo Shioda.

- “Aiki means united life force or spirit. This union refers not only to the act of coordinating one’s own body and spirit but to blending with and dominating an opponent as well. In the modern interpretation, aiki usually refers to the act of physically blending with and opponents attack, then using leverage to upset his balance and dominate him.” This was written by Forrest Morgan in his book titled, Living the Martial Way.

- Lastly, in Donn Draeger’s work, Modern Bujutsu & Budo, the Martial Arts & Ways of Japan Volume III, he quotes two very interesting sources on pages 142 & 143. “The most profound and mysterious art in the world is the art of aiki. This is the secret principle of all the martial arts in Japan. One who masters it can be an unparalleled martial genius.” This was taken from Budo Hitketsu-Aiki no jutsu (The Secret of Budo the Art of Aiki) published in 1899. Also Mr. Draeger writes the following quote from Jujutsu Kyoju-Sho Ryu no Maki (Textbook of Jujutsu, volume on Ryu) published in 1913: “Aiki is an impassive state of mind without a blind side, slackness, evil intention, or fear. There is no difference between aiki and ki-ai: however, if compared, when expressed dynamically aiki is called ki-ai, and when expressed statically, it is aiki.”


mark

Cady Goldfield
16th November 2000, 23:11
We are human beings, subject to the laws of mechanics, hydraulics and pneumatics. The more I read quotes alluding to spiritual forces and mystertious energies, the more it seems to me that those individuals making the comments either don't know anything, or else know plenty and are covering it up with pseudospiritual crappola so as not to leak precious knowledge.

Let us contemplate our navels and meditate on the concept of ki...Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm :laugh:

R Erman
17th November 2000, 05:15
I've known some people who describe aiki as perfect timing, and that timing causes the ability to blend perfectly. Aiki can also be referred to as finding the "sweet spot" in the technique, giving the nage the feel of effortlessness. There are obviously several other mundane explanations of aiki, and they are valid. But, the physical is not the only aspect to aiki, and certainly not to ki.

I think that it is a gross simplification to lump all the "nonphysical" explanations as mysterious, or spiritual, mumbo-jumbo. Ki or chi has been the province of mystics for millenia. Probably, because those people are the ones who spend the time mastering the self, and training intention(as ki is directed through intention and breath control). But, that does not mean that ki has to stay exclusively with spiritual types. Kirlian photography(invented in 1939) is one type of scientific medium that possibly validates some of this bioelectric "mumbo-jumbo".

Even more recent explanations of ki are coming out of modern physics. Zero-point energy being one of these areas of study, coming out of quantum physics. It postulates that every cubic cm of space contains enormous amounts of energy existing in perfect equilibrium, which is why we cannot normaly feel it. But intention might be able to alter that equilibrium(I know, sounds like the force, young Skywalker).

Another branch of physics, called superstring physics, theorizes that the entire universe is connected by vibrating...strings, for lack of a better term, that are trillions of times smaller than an atom. This could also lead to an explanation of ki. This theory is making some real headway in uniting electromagnetism, gravity, and nuclear forces.

With branches of modern physics getting closer to explaining some of the real life "mystical phenomena" that humans experience, and with western medicine beginning to see validity in TCM(Traditional Chinese Medicine), which is based in the flow of bioelectric chi(ki), I don't think we should be so quick to scoff at seemingly "New Age flights of fancy", or "mystical nonsense".

My two cents,

(p.s. some of the information on physics above was drawn from a book called The Way of Aikido: Life Lessons From an American Sensei, by George Leonard. I don't remember chapter or page, but I didn't want to be accused of plagarising[sp?])

[Edited by R Erman on 11-17-2000 at 07:24 AM]

the Khazar Kid
17th November 2000, 05:24
"...mechanics, hydraulics, and pneumatics"

Yes, and pneumatics is the study of the flow of pneuma, which is also called ki.

Jesse Peters

kenjgood
17th November 2000, 06:12
I am with you on this one Cady. No mysterious forces, although I do marvel at the forces.

There are a few threads on the on other popular forums dealing with the specific topic of “ki” and for the most part most the rhetoric is ethereal in nature.

I am doing the “un-Aiki” thing already by ducking, because I know this will draw some fire downrange!

It seems from my limited exposure to the “Aiki”, the entire human operating system must be functioning at peak levels before any hope of achieving total harmony with a determined opponent can be realized.

One’s entire worldview must be scrutinized almost daily to function with peak efficiency using an “Aiki” operating system to solve problems.

What is the human operating system? IMHO Body, Mind and Spirit is an accurate model. The three cannot accurately or neatly dissected and separated.

I leave out spirit in the traditional “good” and “evil” sense, because it would be difficult to argue what a “good” or “bad” spirit is in relation to combat. If an individual was truly “evil”, would that nullify their ability to blend with a punch, redirect that energy to off-balance the attacker and send them to the next world by inverting them to facilitate a neck break?

If you will allow me, I am going to substitute Spirit with Breath as they are often interchanged in the many notable spiritual texts.

The Aiki principles and explanation of these principles seem to be tied together by a strong bond of operating in perfect union with an opponent intents and physical movements. The end result of this temporary union, can vary greatly depending on the desire and skill of the Aiki practitioner, scaling from a simple redirection to catastrophic injury or death to the attacker. In order to achieve this type of union, one must physically move in harmony with energy that is known to travel in waves, a scientific, repeatable and definable fact. I personally believe this energy transfer system was created by intelligent design. True or not, the energy is here and can be harnessed and directed for our use. What we are doing through training is merely learning to apply the immutable laws of the physical universe with and to the human body in motion.

Of course to do all this, one must have exceptional skills in perception, the ability to identify rhythms, and possess a keen understanding of timings, while operating in a compressed timeframe.

When some folks achieve this type of skill, those down the food chain tend to aggrandize or spiritualize the methodologies simply because they cannot easily explain the results through “normal” cause and effect.

Perception seems to be a master key.

1. If one perceives that in order to successfully neutralize an attack or move an opponent, one must lever, contract large muscle groups or apply extended, vigorous physical contact, one’s mind and body will mirror that perceived reality. This same individual will train accordingly.

2. If one learns to successfully neutralize an attack or moves opponents in very “soft” ways, but explains the results couched with spiritual terminology, students may believe and embrace the explanation as he or she has just seen or felt something not previous experienced. If one holds this worldview, anything happening must be done through some type of inner pool of energy or spiritual power. The perception is carried forth through successive student/teacher relationships.

3. If one perceives that one can move an opponent by doing “almost nothing” and understands the bio-mechanical and mental triggers to lead an opponent to move him or herself, the mind, body, training, defense and offence will mirror that perceived reality.

I quote from a previous post:
Aiki in our school can be defined as "those methods or techniques that deceive or effect the opponent's senses". In a philosophical sense you can say that these technique off-balance the opponent mentally. But physical contact is not necessary. - Yanagi ryu, Don Angier Soke

(e-budo.com/Richard Elias)


None of this perceived reality would do you any good if you do not have exceptional technical prowess, which comes from intelligent guidance, patience, and a cultivated awareness.

All Aiki systems deal stress the importance of breath, but vary its usage during the application of technique.

Since our body is part of the matrix is must remain in balance and in a state of adaptable fluidity. In order to achieve this state of being, one must control the mind. In order to keep the mind in control, the breath must be in control, plain and simple. The three (body, mind, and breath) in this sense are inseparable.

If the breath is chaotic and non-controlled, you can be certain the body and mind will follow this pattern. If you are out of control, how can you expect to control your opponent?

Any world-class athlete will have breath control.

No contemplation of the navel required…..Good instruction, quality training, and an intense desire to see what is already been placed here should suffice.

Respectfully,




[Edited by kenjgood on 11-17-2000 at 12:16 AM]

Mark Jakabcsin
17th November 2000, 13:00
Ken,
Good post and thanks for sharing, I enjoyed reading your thoughts. I believe I understand what you are saying about breath and agree but take a slightly different view I would like to bounce off of you.

You wrote: "If you will allow me, I am going to substitute Spirit with Breath as they are often interchanged in the many notable spiritual texts. "

Certainly breath plays a large role in the use of aiki but I tend to see it as one component of spirit and not an entire replacement. To me, spirit is more along the lines of 'intent or focus' of both uke and tori. Breath is one element that can be used to change or further focus that intent. However, breath is not the only element that can be used to change that intent. I agree, that as breath relates to tori, one must maintain control of their breathing and relaxation or they have little hope of successfully using aiki to control their attacker.

To study aiki I see three parts or sub-groups that must be studied. First, one must have control and understanding of mind, body, and spirit (intent) as it relates to themselves (tori). Secondly, one must understand how aiki (mind, body, spirit) relates to their attacker (uke) and thirdly, the dynamic relationship that exsists between uke and tori. If I understand a great deal of aiki as it relates only to myself and I stay relaxed, focus, empty minded, etc but I don't understand how aiki works/affects my attacker it is unlikely that I will have much success. This is one of the reasons that to learn an aiki art one must be a very realistic uke, this is when one learns a great deal of the art. Another example would be if I have a good understanding of how aiki relates to myself and uke but can not put it into a context/relationship that is affective, i.e. don't have the skills or perception to bring that knowledge to bear.

Simply put aiki is the changing/controling of your attackers intent while maintaining your own and directing the resulting relationship to your own desires. I hope I haven't gotten to far of the beaten path, plus I tried to keep this reasonably short so I glossed over alot of stuff. Let me know what you think.

mark

R Erman
17th November 2000, 13:37
Mark, you beat me to it!

I agree with alot of what Ken said, you have to have a very solid physical foundation to apply aiki. Remember, however that the physical must be balanced by the mental and spiritual. Also, I agree that intention is the key(ki).

I do feel that meditation is necessary for harnessing the self, and that sefl-mastery alows us to be open and in tune with the subtle energies around us. I've met MA's whose technique was atrocious, "but darnit, they spent alot of time developing ki, and that's all they need". I think that view is more off-base than the "physical technique and hard training is all you need", opinion.

Lastly, I want to make clear that I am not saying ki will make you unstoppable. It's referred to as subtle energy for a reason. It can enhance sensitivity, as well as day to day living. But I don't think that it will turn you into a superhuman or a pseudo-Jedi.

Cheers,

Cady Goldfield
17th November 2000, 13:38
Interesting comments, Ken. I would go further to offer that the forces at work on the body in motion need not be split down to sub-molecular level such as are quantum physics, but,rather, recognized as good old Newtonian principles. Breathing, timing, mechanics and biomechanics fall within the realm of the non-mystical, although there are those who can evoke a sense of spiritual mystique for anything and everything.

If you want to ascribe mystical forces to the act of learning to drive a car, fine by me, but IMO that's a willful desire to *not* see the forest for the trees.

Cady

Mark Jakabcsin
17th November 2000, 16:55
Cady wrote: "Interesting comments, Ken. I would go further to offer that the forces at work on the body in motion need not be split down to sub-molecular level such as are quantum physics, but,rather, recognized as good old Newtonian principles. Breathing, timing, mechanics and biomechanics fall within the realm of the non-mystical, although there are those who can evoke a sense of spiritual mystique for anything and everything. "

Certainly the physiological aspects are of the utmost importance and everything can be explained mechanically, however, I believe it is equally important to look at the psychological aspect as well. Since the attacker is an unwilling body in motion with his/her own intent we can change that intent by using physical force, psychological manipulation or a combination of both. This psychologial manipulation is what Okamoto Sensei refers to as conditioned response.

My personal spin on this is that conditioned response can be broken down and studied in two sub-categories I call them conditioned reflex and adverserial response. Conditioned reflex would be the natural reflexes that we are born with plus the ones we are conditioned to with time. Maintaining our balance falls into this category, it is not something we are born with but we learn very early in life and it becomes part of our programming, to the point of becoming a reflex. Each of us constantly makes adjustments, without thinking, to maintain a steady upright position. When our posture is disturbed we make adjustments to correct it (could mean taking a step, adjusting our weight, leaning, etc). If our balance is disturbed to the point we can't recover we fall down, but we still make a reflex like action to the intial stimulus.

Adverserial response is a reflex like actions that occurs when we feel threatened or perceive a dynamic rapidly changing environment. Target tracking is an example of this. When one decides to strike or grab an opponent with real intent, the eye will focus on the intended target and if that target moves within certain parameters the attackers focus will automatically follow the target. There are several exercises to demontrate this but I will skip those for now to keep this a little bit shorter. This automatic tracking of the target can be used to manipulate the attacker's body/posture, i.e. make them over commit there balance then the sudden reflex to regain their balance. We can get two predetermined reactions out of our attacker that we can use aggainst them. Also note that many of the conditioned reflexes are hightened or exaggerated in this adverserial environment (the reflex to maintain balance is greatly enhanced here).

By understanding the affects of conditioned responses and how to use them against an opponent, one can change the attackers intent without physical contact, align the attacker's body in a position for a successful counter attack, use the attackers own muscles/energy to cause them harm, etc. This knowledge coupled with the physiological knowledge of body mechanics, physics, etc leads to tremendous results and is at the heart of aiki, IMHO.

mark

Nathan Scott
17th November 2000, 18:01
Hi guys,

Some really well thought out posts here.

Mr. Good - welcome to the forum! Glad to have you here.

A couple of things occur to me from reading these posts that I'd like to toss in the salad.

Neil Y. and I were just yacking in PM yesterday about researching aiki. Personally, I like to seperate (to some degree) the massive subject/controversy of "ki/qi/chi" from "Aiki". Yeah, I know they can't literally be seperated, but to discuss and/or define ki is a helluva undertaking, and I believe to give it justice thorough research and experience in related Chinese arts is required (which I don't have nearly enough of, personally).

However, Aiki is a Japanese term (though it can be seen in non-Japanese arts, under a different name), and as such I think it is a little more comfortable for most of us here to try to tackle - judging from the fact that your all posting on this forum.

When speaking of Ki, you often here "mysterious" type references; and perhaps when discussing Aiki as well. It occurs to me that there are two wide schools of thought regarding aiki:

-those that believe that aiki is based on explainable, logical concepts. Refined manipulation of the opponent's body and movement, physical sensitivity, and perhaps a degree of reliance on "predictable human reactions". I believe traditions like Yanagi ryu and others would fall into this school of thought. It could be argued that the term "aiki" was coined because it was the simplest way to define a complex concept that requires a high level of sensitivity in one word: "harmonized energy". In other words, maybe "aiki" is not to be thought of quite so literally.

-those that believe in the above explainable elements, but also believe that the literal flow of "ki" is also manipulated to a point where it's successful use is a mojor part of performing "aiki". The use of such ki force seems to be difficult if not impossible to explain, and not widely understood if it does exist. so this principle remains "mysterious".

It would be interesting to know which styles consider themselves a part of which catagory. These two major schools of thought, BTW, may or may not have anything to do with the similarity/differences between DR aiki and classical aiki. Don't know.

On another point regarding kokyu,

I don't know about anyone else, but I went through a time where I looked into various methods of kokyu and asked seniors I knew of their opinion. One of the better sources I found was an article in Journal of Asian Martial Arts in which the author researched breathing methods of various martial arts from various countries.

His conclusion, as was mine, seemed to be that breathing should be done "naturally". (Duh, right?). If you move in "harmony" with your opponent (aiki), then the timing of the breath will adjust naturally if the execution of waza is performed correctly. In other words, if you train correctly for long enough, your breathing will naturally adjust to best aid the requirements imposed on your body - just as your muscles do. The spirit becomes stronger, the body becomes stronger and conditioned to the movements performed repetitively over a long time, and the timing and method of the breath also adjusts to give allow your body to operate as efficiently as possible.

Of course it's important to be instructed at some point in how to breath naturally, from your lower abdomen ("like a new born child"), and when possible to inhale through the nose and exhale through the mouth. But aside from proper method of breathing, the rest might be learned naturally through years of correct training. Since I'm not an aiki-master, I can't say if this natural approach is sufficient or not to achieving a high level or aiki. But to my knowledge and experience so far I do not have reason to believe otherwise.

You inhale to expand your body (think iriminage/sayunage/sokumen irimi etc. or tenchinage), and exhale to contract your body.

Some people say that when you "kiai", you exhale, and when you use "aiki", you inhale. You exhale when you do things like striking or receiving body blows. But you inhale often when (at least) initiating an aiki technique.

It may be as simple as exhale when you wish to use the power of contraction, and inhale when you want to use the power of expansion.

That's just what I've come up with so far. What do you think?

PS. Mark-san, thanks for the quotes. I nabbed 'em for my "investigative essay in progress". :)

Cady Goldfield
17th November 2000, 18:59
Mark,
While I agree with your statement that there are psychological influences involved (there most certainly are), IMO the psychological is part of the physical -- part of the organic and biological. One cannot separate the psychological from the physiological, because the former is a product of the latter.

As many people realize, the mind *is* of the body. It is the result of neurochemical, organic "transactions" of a complex -- yet still biological -- nature. Furthermore, human psychology and behavior, while complex, are predictible, measurable and finite, just as the behaviors of dogs and horses are (after 40 years of studying horsemanship, I can pretty much predict everything a horse will and can do in a given situation, and so could most cowpokes). An individual who makes a long and deep study of human nature can pretty much predict how "people" will respond to a variety of stimuli pretty much all of the time. Not an easy task given the complexity of the human brain, but do-able.

So, to make a long story shorter, when you speak of psychology as a separate function from mechanics, I see them as part of the same equation. It's just that the knowledge of mechanics of the human body are far quicker to learn than its myriad physiological-psychological responses and tendencies!

Cady

Mark Jakabcsin
17th November 2000, 19:59
Cady wrote: "While I agree with your statement that there are psychological influences involved (there most certainly are), IMO the psychological is part of the physical -- part of the organic and biological. One cannot separate the psychological from the physiological, because the former is a product of the latter. "

Cady,
You are correct and I agree that you can not 'really' separate the two, however, to simplfy and create a process that enables one to study the total affect I have found it useful to break them down and look at them individually, then study how they work together (wow, what a long sentence). I acknowledge that this process certainly has the potential pitfall of not being able see the forest from the trees but I also acknowledge that attempting to see all of the forest in one glance is equally impossible. The forest is vast and hides many of it's treasures for those that seek them out. Personally, I train using both processes, although not at the same time. I switch between the two based on my needs and interests at my time of training. My purpose in opening this can of worms was to ensure that everyone understood that there is more than just mechanics. Thanks.

mark

Cady Goldfield
17th November 2000, 20:10
No arguement there, Mark.
Holy cow! Did I just agree with Mark?! :laugh:

Cady

Mark Jakabcsin
17th November 2000, 20:15
"No arguement there, Mark.
Holy cow! Did I just agree with Mark?"

You take that back right now!! LOL.

mark

Cady Goldfield
17th November 2000, 20:24
Hmph! We'll settle this on the mats someday, buster!

Cady

R Erman
18th November 2000, 01:26
Cady,

We could easily let this develop into a forum that goes on forever. I acknowledge and respect your opinions here, and on other posts/forums, so I don't want to offend, but there is more than just the obvious "physical", IMO. I don't buy into "pseudospiritual crappola" unless it is something replicable or something that I've experienced personally. And I do feel that all of this talk of energy/ki/chi/prana...will someday be enveloped by science(probably when we have the instrumentation to "see" it). I think the last thing we need to do is to argue over something that neither will budge on(I did that enough already with another member on the inaccuracy of the bible). So lets agree to disagree...agreeably.

BTW, I look at the forest and the trees. I feel that the workings of the "mysteries" are often found in the mundane. I think now I'll go contemplate that navel that you spoke of.

Dream True,

Cady Goldfield
18th November 2000, 01:42
Rob,
I went through the whole shebang of exploring "chi" and all of the yin-yang spiritual stuff when I first came into the arts. As a neophyte I was fascinated by everything, but as yet ignorant of everything. As time went by, things described to me as possessing spiritual attributes became less and less plausible to me as the commonsense side of me came to understand and recognize the very cogent, earthly causes.

My academic upbringing includes grad studies in physical anthropology and biology, and my lifelong pursuit of natural history and the natural sciences must obviously influence the way I see the world.

As I've said in earlier threads, the spiritual mind that is not informed by true scientific knowledge, and the scientific mind that is not informed by experience with the spiritual, do not represent fully balanced perspectives. I have my spirituality, but my perspectives are informed by a pragmatic knowledge of the natural world. When people start ascribing mystical forces to what are already known to be physical ones, it just reminds me of the importance of a well-rounded exposure to the natural world.

Mark Jakabcsin
18th November 2000, 04:22
Nathan wrote: "His conclusion, as was mine, seemed to be that breathing should be done "naturally". (Duh, right?). If you move in "harmony" with your opponent (aiki), then the timing of the breath will adjust naturally if the execution of waza is performed correctly. In other words, if you train correctly for long enough, your breathing will naturally adjust to best aid the requirements imposed on your body - just as your muscles do. The spirit becomes stronger, the body becomes stronger and conditioned to the movements performed repetitively over a long time, and the timing and method of the breath also adjusts to give allow your body to operate as efficiently as possible.

"Of course it's important to be instructed at some point in how to breath naturally, from your lower abdomen ("like a new born child"), and when possible to inhale through the nose and exhale through the mouth. But aside from proper method of breathing, the rest might be learned naturally through years of correct training. Since I'm not an aiki-master, I can't say if this natural approach is sufficient or not to achieving a high level or aiki. But to my knowledge and experience so far I do not have reason to believe otherwise."

Nathan, I am surely not an aiki master either, but I have frequently been accused of being foolhardy and I hate to make a liar out of anyone so here goes:

As Mike Campagna mentioned on a previous thread and Nathan recently reminded us, one of Okamoto Sensei’s principles of aiki is controlled breathing. Controlled breathing does not necessarily limit one to ‘natural breathing, from the lower abdomen”. This is, imho, the best way to start someone in learning aiki because there are so many other facets to be learned. If someone focuses excessively on breathing too early it is unlikely they will learn much and become very frustrated. Besides, one can limit himself to ‘breathing naturally’ and have a lifetime of success doing so. IMHO, breathing opens tremendous possibilities and opportunities for new approaches to aiki but I do not believe that breathing is the sole, defining aspect of aiki.

Breathing can be used to change uke’s intent, disrupt uke’s equilibrium and even control uke’s own breathing. One can breathe naturally and use other methods to affect uke’s intent/focus, which is perfectly fine. Breathing is just one more method that can be used to gain control. Ken Good mentioned earlier that in order to apply aiki correctly one must be in control of their own breathing, which I imagine everyone agrees with. If we take that one step farther and we gain control of our attackers breathing do we not then deny them the full use of their body power?

I have always found the phrase ‘moving in harmony’ to be a bit misleading when applied in a martial context. If the end result is throwing, locking or doing other nasty things to our adversary then at some point we are no longer ‘moving in harmony’ with them. The idea as I see it, is to move in harmony and direct the attacker's energy/motion to the point that they can not adequately resist when I move to the finishing aspect of the technique. An attacker will not willingly allow himself to be thrown, right before it happens they will attempt to resist, but if tori has set-up everything correctly the resistance is futile and they fall. None the less, it wasn’t harmony that threw him; it was the change out of harmony. If both parties stayed in harmony, the result would be a continuous equilibrium. I bring this up because a change in breathing at the appropriate time is one of the more subtle methods to break the harmony and end the equilibrium in the manner tori decides.

Following are two basic experiments one can do to see various results in different types of breathing.

- Calmly walk up to a training partner without telling them what you are doing. Establish eye contact and possibly very light physical contact. Be very relaxed and non-threatening, possibly even smile, then suddenly suck in your breath very loudly through your teeth. Observe the reaction of uke; notice how it affected their breathing, body tension, and stance. Did uke move closer, farther or stay the same distance from you (minute amounts count)? Notice what happens to uke’s eyes. What was uke’s intent directly before you breathed in? What was it after?

- Ask the best attacker in your training group to stand 4-5 feet away from you then attack by grabbing for your chest with full intent. Relax your stance and eyes and see all of uke. Once you see that uke has gathered himself/herself up for the attack and is beginning the attack take a very large breath into your upper chest expanding rapidly upward. Watch very closely what happens. Starting this breath a fraction before the attack is launched is very important. What was uke’s reaction? What happened to uke’s breathing? Watch uke’s feet. Have uke do the same attack and don’t breathe. Is there a difference in the attack? The more committed your uke the more dramatic the results.

In each case breathing, invokes a conditioned response that can be used to change the dynamic of the relationship between uke and tori. This change may only last a fraction of a second but that is plenty of time for the one in control to begin a chain of actions, which keeps their attacker in control.

Breathlessly yours,
mark

R Erman
18th November 2000, 15:29
Cady,

As I said I respect your viewpoint. Experience defines perspective, and vice versa...I think. Any way I agree with much of what you say, about balancing spirit with science.

I don't think you were inferring this, but I am in no way new to the arts. And I do remember the seemingly impossible being discovered later as mundane autonomics. But some of what I have seen/done doesn't easily fit into any rational explanation, not yet anyway. But that's my view, and I in no way expect you to accept my word on my experience. Any way, as I said, no use in dragging this out. You made your point elegantly, as usual.

'Nuff Said,

wanax
18th November 2000, 22:26
Folks, despite my better instincts, I do want to get into this. Lots of good things said on the subject of chi/ki. Before I go on, my academic background is M.S. degrees in Chem Eng and Materials Eng, I was an Engineering Manager for General Dynamics, and am currently a research program manager for a university. THat said, within the last six years, I have definitely become a space cadet as well, and I am no longer sure what constitutes natural law. BTW, never have used drugs, no history of mental illness, no criminal record, tremendously physically fit, middle-aged and not easily fooled or carried away.
My kung fu teacher is John Chang, made famous by the documentary series Ring of Fire, where he uses chi to zap the anthropologists and light a newspaper on fire. THis is not a trick, he has done it under clinical conditions as well for quite a few scientists trying to figure out what is happening, myself included. The following paragraphs are a condensed excerpt of how I try to explain it in my book "The Magus of Java":
"Perhaps the clearest statement I can make regarding the power of electrogenesis displayed by Sifu John Chang is to say that it is most definitely not the result of electron flow. If it were, such electron movement could have been recorded as a potential or a current of some sort, and John would have been able to produce incandescence in a lightbulb. Nevertheless, anyone coming into contact with this energy will swear that he feels an electric current passing through his body. In addition, this energy is thoroughly transferable through conductors (metals, water), but not through insulators. If this "current" is not due to electron flow, then what is causing it?"
"I would like to take another shot in the dark at this point and propose that increased nuclear oscillation, or even nuclear fusion, may be the cause of this phenomenon."
"Several researchers (Kevran, Komaki, Pappas, Hillman, Goldfein) have suggested that electrically induced nuclear fusion (i.e. "cold" nuclear fusion) takes place inside the body at all times, and indeed, may be the driving force which fuels the sodium-potassium transfer inside the cell. I have chosen the word "transfer" carefully. The mainstream theory (called "the Sodium-Potassium Pump") proposes a mechanism whereby sodium is exchanged for potassium inside and out of the cell in an attempt to explain the transmembrane potential of the cell membrane. However, this model has never been validated and stumps today's investigators. Proponents of the biological cold nuclear fusion theory, on the other hand, suggest that sodium is nuclearly transmuted to potassium inside the cell, following this formula: 11Na23 + 8 O16 + Ä(Energy) = 19K39 , and that the process should rightfully be labeled "the Sodium-Potassium Transmutation." This model is, of course, outside the accepted boundaries of today's physics. Taking everything into consideration, however, it seems to me quite sensible to propose that John's yin-yang kung energy may be due to increased states of nuclear excitation. This energy is generated as a series of pulses, and is induced by the interaction of the solar yang energy with the "gravitational" or "dark-matter" force of the yin ch'i. It is this increased nuclear excitation (or fusion) that John's patients and students feel as "current." (The difference between my viewpoint and that of the aforementioned researchers is that I do not believe this fusion is electrically induced. Neither is it "cold", strictly speaking.)
"The reader will see that such a postulate is most logical if we look at things once again from a macrocosmic, astrophysical perspective. Our current science accepts the notion that, were it not for the dynamism of nuclear fusion serving as an expansive force, our sun would collapse under the force of its own gravity.
What this means is that all stars are battlefields between gravity and some force providing outward pressure.
Understanding t'ai-chi is easier once we redefine fundamental concepts to coincide with the archetype. Let's start with gravity. When most people think of gravity, they remember the basics learned in high school: that is to say, one mass exerts an attractive force on another, and it is this attractive force that keeps us on the planet's surface. Let's take this truism one step further and define things more precisely: gravity is that force in the universe that wants all matter to collapse into a single mass, and ultimately into one singularity. That is to say, gravity is that force that seeks to compact space and time into a single, massive black hole! It is this dynamism that absorbs energy and sends it into "nowhere". Gravity is precisely the intrinsic yin ch'i used by John Chang to achieve his spectacular, energy-absorbing demonstrations. (I must reiterate, however, that while gravity is a yin ch'i, the yin field is not limited to gravity. There are other aspects.)
"Solar fire, on the other hand, is the expansive force that defines space and time and keeps it extant. Western science calls this solar force nuclear fusion. The ancient scholars of China called it yang ch'i. It is one and the same. Macrocosmically the combat between the two forces of gravity and solar fire (yin and yang) define the nature of reality. Microcosmically their interaction fuels our life force. (It is logical to hypothesize that should such a contest comprise the fundamental natural condition of our universe, then our own bodies and our very life force would reflect it. The ancient Chinese, who knew nothing of black holes and red giants, experienced and deduced this struggle using other methods.)"
This is a condensed version, but it gives the idea. Let me put my neck on the guillotine and see how you folks respond. Feel free to flame on as long as it's kept academic. Comments such as "I don't believe you because my penis is three inches longer than yours" are unproductive and unappreciated.

Cady Goldfield
18th November 2000, 22:36
Oy, gevalt.

Dan Harden
19th November 2000, 01:17
Chuck

Many of the people here have been training for decades. We have been shown wonderful techniques that "appear" magical or supernormal (pick your term) HOWEVER, you will find that to a man, we have been taught definitively how to "do" it. I may add to this that several people here train under some of the finest exponents of “Aiki” in the modern world. Therefore, we do not run around looking for theories of cold fusion to explain highly refined, exacting, pragmatic, and thoroughly coherent physical principles. When the human body is in a relaxed state it has potential to cause extraordinary movement in another human body IF you understand how to make the connection and then utilize it.
Since people can do it and then teach others how to do it as well, I do not feel it fits into any sort of definition of supernatural. What is accomplished through the manipulation of the co-joined (Shite/uke) skeletal/muscular system is firmly routed in the physical realm AS WE KNOW IT. Moreover I wish to add that every man I have met who was able to use Aiki can teach others how to use it as well. It just takes decades of practice.
I firmly disapprove of anything that elevates martial technique to the supernatural or mystical. It does Budo a tremendous disservice and relegates us to the "New age mysticism" genre.
Perhaps you would do better posting this on a list that believes in “KI” as some sort of ethereal explanation for techniques they cannot do yet. The rest of us here know all to well the rational movements inherent in the mountain we are trying to climb.
In closing I want to emphasize that I have no wish to flame you personally. I simply do not believe in anything you are offering as explanation for rational movement in the human body. Much less anything useful to Budo. While I realize YOU believe this man is doing these things. I, on the other hand, most assuredly DO NOT. I watched the amazing Kreskin (famous for be-bunking charlatans) do much the same thing about ten years ago on the Tee Vee. Bent spoons, lit fires from afar, made people topple over without touching them, read minds..etc...etc.

Dan

[Edited by Dan Harden on 11-18-2000 at 07:27 PM]

Mark Jakabcsin
19th November 2000, 13:48
Chuck,
I found your post fascinating, although some of it was more than my dinosaur sized brain could follow. Also I don't understand how your post and thoughts relate to the discussion on aiki. Like Dan states, aiki isn't a mystic, unknown force, it is a combination of numerous known and explainable principles that when put together correctly have a tremendous effect. A discusion on whether ki exsists and what exactly it is, while interesting, really doesn't relate to a discussion on aiki as far as I can tell. If you feel there is a relationship please tie it together for me. Thanks.

mark

wanax
19th November 2000, 14:48
Dan, some of the people I have had the privilege of hanging around with are Nobel Laureates in physics. They are not convinced that they fully understand the workings of the physical universe or the human physical entity, and humbly admit to it; it is surprising that you yourself are convinced. If you claim that we know, in their entirety, the physical workings of the human body,I would suggest a more in-depth perusal of medical literature; you will find that what we don't know far surpasses what we do. In short, we do NOT know the physical realm completely; we do NOT know the precise nature of the force that causes life to exist. If we did, we could bring undamaged dead tissue back to life via electromagnetic and chemical manipulation. To date, we cannot. What I have found may be a link to the unknown force that does keep us alive. BTW, a little tidbit on John Chang, something I myself am not proud of: he was, for decades, the presidential physician of Indonesia under the Suharto regime. We all know what a nice man Suharto was (is); if John was a fraud he would have lost his head twenty years ago.
No problem with the flame, as I was expecting and hoping someone would.
BTW, I am quite familiar with the workings of the myoskeletal system myself, having done martial arts for thirty years to date, for many years in the Orient, and having seem much. (I am over forty, used to design F-16's for a living, and am not very easy to deceive by trickery.) But I will say this: I hope to God that you are wrong. It would be horrible, terrible, if the spirit of budo was just a series of mechanical movements; that would mean that there was nothing more to it than that typified by Iron Mike Tyson. If there was nothing beyond Iron Mike, I would rather play tennis or golf.
Mark, anyway you want to define it in the English language, the Chinese ideograms for aiki translate as "harmonious ki."
If you are discussing aiki without discussing "ki," you are ignoring the context that the original creators of the word wanted. You can call ki "energy" if you wish, and end it at that; but my standpoint, as a martial artist of thirty years and a degreed scientist of twenty, is that, in addition to the kinetic, electromagnetic, and chemical energy inherent to our own biophysical model, they are referring to something else - a "vapor" that rises from the pot (body) like steam, as the ideogram suggests. I hope to be able to prove it some day under academic criteria; should that time come, I will send Mr. Harden a bill for six Guiness stouts.
Best,

Cady Goldfield
19th November 2000, 16:10
Chuck,

The company you kept didn't happen to also include any Nobel laureates in biology, physiology or medicine, did it? Hanging around with physicists ain't gonna give you a realisitic view of day-to-day mechanics and reality. ;)

Humankind will be exploring the mysteries of matter and energy, and the nature of existance, for centuries to come.

However, I doubt very much that what we will find involves humans shooting flames out of various body orifaces, or "extending energy" to cause things to happen at a distance. This is because the human body, wonderous though it is, is a finite organic device which operates on specific principles. While biochemical-electrical activity is what fuels the human neuromuscular system and drives life itself, there is a specific way in which it is utilized. We are, in effect, organic batteries in that respect, with the energy remaining self-contained to run our internal systems. Animals such as the electric eel have evolved to utilize this bio-chemical energy to emit electrical current outside their bodies, using water as the conductor to shock their prey or for self-defense. That is a different evolutionary development, and one which our species did not enter.

But this energy is quite defineable according to existing knowledge and structures. Anyone who has made a potato battery in high school chemistry class, or who has watched an Ealing film loop on electrochemical transmission between brain cells or neurons in biology or physiology class, has learned these basic principles.

When you get into quantum physics, you are departing from the principles that are at play here. We can split hairs and discuss human biomechanics and neurophysiology on a molecular or sub-molecular level, but it does not lend a different set of rules to what is happening when a bujutsuka is applying aiki to another human body.

Just because some guy like Ueshiba starts getting into Omotokyo and mystery, doesn't mean that he didn't get his waza from just plain having his teacher manipulate his body and nervous system mechanically, and show him how he did it.



[Edited by Cady Goldfield on 11-19-2000 at 10:26 AM]

wanax
19th November 2000, 17:00
Cady,
Glad to get your two bits, I was hoping you would nibble after reading your posts. While I am not a biologist or doctor, (and you're right, the people I know do need help to get dressed at this point - how did you guess?), like anyone trained in science and engineering, I can look at a phenomenon and attempt to analyze it. I gather you've studied biology - look up Louis Kervran's and Hisatoki Komiki's papers on biological cold fusion; both of them got screwed - lost their prestigious positions - for daring to voice to academia what I voiced on this forum.
Two hundred years ago, academics believed in phlogiston. One hundred years ago everyone was sure Newtonian physics were the end. Fifteen years ago no one knew what a prion was, which is why some a**hole decided it was alright to feed the bones of ground up dead cows to live cows. (I live in Europe.) My point is, we cannot be sure, at any time, that we are fully aware of all the equations and all the variables in the matrix that is life; if we were, we would be more than we are now.
Let's say for a moment that I 1) am not out of my mind, 2)have no ulterior motives, 3)am not as innocent as most and subject to trickery. John Chang emits something like an electric current. Thousands of people have felt this. Back when I was first exposed to the phenomenon I thought he was using some kind of conductive film or medium and pulling a fast one. Then I tried to measure the voltage and amperage he was issuing; I measured nothing, even though I was feeling a strong current in my body. I tried it with three different recorders at three different times. There is no voltage and amperage. Electrons are not flowing when he issues chi - the machines read zero. And yet, everyone who comes into contact with him can feel a current so powerful it is painful. What this means is that he is issuing some kind of energy with which we are not familiar. There are at present around ten people researching John from the States, brought in by various organizations. No one has been able to measure his energy with machines of today's technology - and no one has reached any conclusions.
I don't have any answers myself, and no real self-interest with these posts - it would be far more profitable to advertise my book on the qi and New Age circuit, as someone stipulated. At heart though, I am very much a pragmatic, rough and tumble martial artist - you can ask Lindsey and others at e-budo who know me - and I wanted to see how pragmatic budoka would respond to a new/ancient idea. The answer is, pretty much like pragmatic budoka ought to, and that is fine... for now. But I hope I have you guessing. Who was it that said "If I'm wrong, I'm just another man who was wrong, but if I'm right, then what....?"

best,

[Edited by Nathan Scott on 11-20-2000 at 11:12 AM]

Cady Goldfield
19th November 2000, 17:24
Hi Chuck,
You'll note that I edited my earlier reply to rephrase what I said about "physicists who need their wives to dress them." I didn't want to start the flames flaring among any lurking physicists here (although their wives might chuckle). :)

No, I don't consider you crazy or insane. It sounds to me that what you experienced with Mr. Chang is something that would naturally be described by the unitiated as "electrical current." This seeming phenomenon does exist and is practiced by people in some old systems in China and Japan.

I have felt it myself, once from a Chinese taiji/jigong master many years ago. I was at a total loss to explain the sensation and the power of it, until years later, when I found it again in another system and learned more. While I can't say more on the subject for a variety of reasons, I will say that I am quite certain that you could not register any amperage or voltage when you tested Mr. Chang because what he was doing was NOT electrical. It was mechanical manipulation that has the effect of upsetting the entire human body -- not just mechanically but neurologically.

Think of it the way you'd think of a so-called "magician." Magicians are, in fact, illusionists and/or prestidigitators. They can fool the mind, via the eye, into believing that one thing is being done, when in fact it is something entirely different that they are doing while you are distracted by one set of activities. Your eye becomes the magician's cohort in leading your mind. This is in no way mocking of the skills of prestidigitators; rather, I'm speaking out of great respect, as a true master can make you believe nearly anything is possible.

Then, think "Occum's Razor" (I know I spelled his name wrong...) and then, think of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's great detective, Sherlock Holmes. Whenever Holmes was asked why he didn't share the process by which he arrived at his brilliant deductions, Holmes always replied that if he did, they wouldn't seem so magical or brilliant anymore; they would appear "commonplace."

Of course, to the simple it would seem commonplace once described, while to those who appreciate the complexity and depth of the process, Holmes would ever be the true genius.

Thus it is with this seemingly mysterious ingredient --really a method, subtle and deep -- that we are discussing. Things are not always as they appear, or even as they feel.

Cady


[Edited by Cady Goldfield on 11-19-2000 at 09:01 PM]

Mark Jakabcsin
19th November 2000, 17:43
Chuck,
I am aware of the Chinese charater similarities but was hoping you could do better than that. Dan stated that with aiki all of the forces at play in the body are known and not mysterious. You then jumped off onto an unrelated tangent about how much is unknown about the human body. While this is true, it doesn't change Dan's point, that with regards to aiki, we know the forces that are in play. The unknown stuff you talk about is interesting but irrelevant when discussing aiki. You seem to want more out of aiki than there is and suggest that when 'they' talk of aiki there is a '"vapor" that rises from the pot (body) like steam' thing going on. I am not sure who 'they' are but I do note that Takeda Sokaku didn't but any stock in unexplainable ki forces. Neither did Horikawa Sensei, nor does Okamoto Sensei. These guys have pretty good reputations when it comes to aiki. My brief encounter with Angier Sensei leads me to believe that he is of the same mind (hopefully Toby or Richard can give his views). You keep trying to steer the discussion towards unknown/unexplainable physical forces and yet the folks that know aiki say there ain't any that relate to aiki. In short, if you want to include ki in a discussion of aiki you have to give us a great deal more than similarities in Chinese characters.

mark

kenjgood
20th November 2000, 05:17
It's "si" not "ki"!!!

As in sequence…

Most of the “mysterious forces” of associated with Aiki can be brought back to the proper sequencing of body movement in context of an opponent(s).

The sequence must be correctly formulated in the dynamic of conflict, which is not an easy proposition. The ability to create, duplicate and effectively apply proper sequencing must be relegated to the sub-conscious mind by conscious mind though constant, quality training.

Timing of and during the sequence is critical. The question is, WHEN do I:

Subtly shift my weight?
Move a small muscle group?
Touch some particular part of the opponent’s body?
Inhale or Exhale?
Expand or Contract?
Leave the Center – Maintain the Center?
And so on and so on….

The more proficient one becomes in a particular sequence, the smaller it will appear on the “outside”. The result from the outsiders point of view is often more visually dramatic, not to mention what happens to the attacker….he or she gets an “E” ride. We generally start big and then shrink it down, down, down. You know you are starting to travel on the right road, when outside observers are visibly getting upset. They “know” the Uke willingly participated in the fall or submission. The sequence has become so small and time-efficient; those that do not see the sequence can only explain it as some type of bogus demonstration. It is the proverbial “less is more” in action.

When folks are screaming, twirling, dancing, and throwing appendages around, then the gallery is satisfied that the response to the attack was effective.

IMHO, the study of Aiki (blending of the Breath, Mind and Body with the view to unbalance mentally and physically any opponent)is the quest is for efficiency and economy of motion based on a keen understanding of the human anatomy rather than a quest for some inner, non-describable power.

The “power” is already here. We “merely” need to recognize the fact that, acceleration, momentum, the force of gravity, centripetal motion, circumnavigation of pressure, pressure from behind as so on are governing laws and principles that cannot be abrogated in the current construct.

This recognition needs to be coupled with a well-developed sense of touch, regardless of the body part involved.

What makes some sequence uniquely “Aiki”? Maybe this question could be elaborated on in future posts. Masterpieces of artwork are not easily appreciated and evaluated utilizing a check the box framework.

Even without a totally clear understanding of all the elements that would define Aiki, at this point I can usually identify something as being from or not from the Aiki universe. Although I am not an artist or qualified art critic, I do know bad art when I see it.

So the journey continues with no potential end in sight. I wonder if Albert Einstein was an Aiki practitioner?


P.S. – Cady
"What can be done with fewer assumptions is done in vain with more"
- Ockham's Razor

- William of Ockham was an English monk, philosopher, theologian who provided the scientific method with its key principle 700 years ago. He said. That is, in explaining any phenomenon, we should use no more explanatory concepts than are absolutely necessary.

Repectfully,

Ken J. Good
http://surefire.com/institute.htm

[Edited by kenjgood on 11-19-2000 at 11:35 PM]

wanax
20th November 2000, 08:36
I'm not trying to convince anyone, folks, since what I am suggesting is beyond the bounds of convention and I have no hard arguments yet. Cady, interesting post. Was the qigong master you met able to pass this force through metal objects? Mine can, over a distance of thirty feet (a cable)and probably beyond; if this is mechanical/chemical transference, then it is one hell of a manipulation. Here's a little tidbit for you, since you are interested in the phenomenon: I have it on X-ray film; whatever he's using leaves a trace (a fog, dare I say a "vapor"?); if I can repeat the tests in a certified Western lab, that will be that for all to see. Hence my assertion of an unknown force, and a nuclear one at that. BTW, Kervran came to the same conclusion, and he was a Nobel nominee in human physiology (1975, I think; and no, his ideas were too extreme for him to win the Prize). Also, I myself like to believe in myths and legends come true; Troy was uncovered after all, by a fat German merchant at that who stubbornly ignored the assertions of the intellegencia of the day that "it doesn't exist" (it even appears that the names are accurate in the saga).
Mark, I was not trying to be a smartass, sorry to disappoint you. "They" refers to the chinese who drew the ideogram in the first place; the vapor rising out of the rice pot seems to me a very wierd way to refer to kinetic energy in a pictograph - unless they knew something we don't, or had developed a civilization based on the steam engine. I am aware of Takeda's views and disposition as well, but aiki is a word far older than this past century, and ki is a concept introduced into Japan, along with many other things, from China.
One thing people; I am not trying to stipulate that every innocent dreamer out there can control this energy or that what is taught in most schools is anything beyond the skilled use of myoskeletal function. Indeed, most people are deluding themselves into thinking that something is going on, when in fact nothing is. What I am saying is that our own biophysical model is incomplete, and that some people, very very very few, have developed techniques by which they can control an additional factor not covered by our theories today. You can believe that, or reject it, as you will. It will not make a shred of difference in your training or mine, or affect me in any way. My own purpose in posting here has been achieved; I wanted to see what people would say! It has been interesting.

Cady Goldfield
20th November 2000, 13:49
Chuck,
I was speaking only of human-on-human contact and effect. As Dan says, when you start talking about igniting objects at a distance, it enters the realm of hucksterism. As Dan said so succinctly, there are people who have made a career out of debunking this sort of thing. Thus far, no one who has done such things as Chang has been able to replicate the effects when made to do them in an environment which the individual has not been able to access in advance, nor place any accomplices (which, in some instances, have included seemingly legit scientists and guards!).

This sort of "medicine show" has been going on for centuries. Don't you think that, if it were for real, guys like Chang would have been abducted by military operations and secret government agencies a long, long time ago? :)

I'm afraid that until your friend is willing to submit himself to another trial, this time for those who have made a career out of "magic" and illusionism (such as the Amazing Kreskin, or the Amazing Randy, Blackwell Jr. and their associates) -- who probably would love to trade illusion method notes with Chinese counterparts who have had hundreds of years to refine their craft -- his methods remain shady.

Again, as Dan stated, many of us here have seen and witnessed the same sorts of things, and, like the great illusionists, know that the hand is quicker than the eye.

Cady




[Edited by Cady Goldfield on 11-20-2000 at 09:13 AM]

Cady Goldfield
20th November 2000, 15:19
Originally posted by kenjgood


P.S. – Cady
"What can be done with fewer assumptions is done in vain with more"
- Ockham's Razor

- William of Ockham was an English monk, philosopher, theologian who provided the scientific method with its key principle 700 years ago. He said. That is, in explaining any phenomenon, we should use no more explanatory concepts than are absolutely necessary.

Thanks, Ken. I was having a "middle age" moment and lost the spelling. But Ockham's words were apropos to the situation, and that's what I meant to imply. :)

Cady

wanax
20th November 2000, 17:19
Cady, I am aware of the requirements and procedures for clinical testing, as well as the methods behind producing illusion. I am also keenly aware of what it takes to go beyond convention - it is never easy. Thank you for the info on what you had witnessed - for a minute there you had me worried. As for the rest, well, I think we can all agree that it's my problem. Let's by all means end this string here - I doubt anything will come out of further discussion.