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pacman2323
12th February 2005, 15:07
hi i have a question i once saw a demo of a sword being used to apply a jointlock my question is are there any schools that specialize in this type of swordwork and how often was it used in kenjutsu?

-chi jonesone

Jeremy Hulley
12th February 2005, 20:11
We have a couple in Shinto Ryu..Mostly a chance to let the bad guy get away before killing him...

Shimura
13th February 2005, 05:19
Many sword styles have kumiuchi techniques in them, including some of the waza. I know our branch of MJER has it, as well as the branch of MJER I trained with in Japan.

fifthchamber
14th February 2005, 04:37
Hi there.
You could also look into the Yagyu Shingan Ryu, the Kukishin Ryu and Takenouchi Ryu for more on that...I think I remember seeing that you were based near Tokyo/Saitama? If so then there is more than ample opportunity for you to find out more on those schools...Tanemura Sensei as you know has some knowledge on the first two at least..
You could also try the video from Shimazu Kenji's YSR group...There was kumitachi demonstrated in that I recall...
Good luck...

Sean Townsend
14th February 2005, 19:55
Here is a pic of Sekiguchi Komei sensei demonstrating a joint lock found in Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v213/seant9p/WaltanSekiguchi041.jpg

don
14th February 2005, 23:00
Originally posted by Sean Townsend
Here is a pic of Sekiguchi Komei sensei demonstrating a joint lock found in Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu.

Very cool. Thank you.

Brian Owens
15th February 2005, 05:00
We had joint-locking methods in Seiki Ryu Kenjutsu/Jodo, at the higher levels.

Seiki Ryu is an Aikiken/Aikijo system, and as you may know Ueshiba Morihei held a menkyo in Yagyu Shingan Ryu among his many other accomplishments; I seem to recall that that was the root of some of our techniques.

Bruce Mitchell
15th February 2005, 05:17
Hey Brian,
My understanding is that ,

a) The Yagyu Ryu that Ueshiba studied us a jujutsu ryuha, and has no relation to the sword based Yagyu Ryu.

b) That Ueshiba's Menkyo is lacking an authenticating seal.

I believe that Ellis Amdur wrote an excellent article that is archived at www.koryubooks.com that strongly argues that the strongest link is between Kashima Shinryu and Aikiken. It is also my understanding that Ueshiba's Aikiken lineage is preserved int he Iwama branh of Aikido (sorry, but I don't know anything about the branch that you study, is it related to Saito's lineage?). Myself, I studied Chiba Kazou's line of Aikiken, which in it's early years was pretty much straight Iwama stuff, but later developed a strong influence from the Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido that Chiba Sensei studied.

Back on topic with the thread, I have seen some interesting locks performed with a naginata in Jikishin Kage ryu Naginatajutsu.

Brian Owens
15th February 2005, 05:38
Originally posted by Bruce Mitchell
My understanding is that...The Yagyu Ryu that Ueshiba studied us a jujutsu ryuha, and has no relation to the sword based Yagyu Ryu.

Yes, Yagyu Shingan Ryu is not the same as Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, the latter being the more well-known sword art.

Yagyu Shingan Ryu, however, is not only a school of jujutsu. Their curriculum includes taijutsu (jujutsu), kenjutsu, bojutsu, naginatajutsu, and iaijutsu.

fifthchamber
15th February 2005, 05:43
Hi Brian,

a) The Yagyu Ryu that Ueshiba studied is a jujutsu ryuha, and has no relation to the sword based Yagyu Ryu.
Well..Not really...The founder of the Shingan Ryu studied the Kenjutsu of the Shinkage Ryu before founding his own school..He was well enough respected by the Yagyu family that he was allowed to use the Yagyu name in his own system...The Shingan Ryu IS mainly a Jujutsu based Ryuha...But ALSO contains many other weapons...Including Kenjutsu, Bojutsu, and some fan techniques as well..There is a good DVD with Shimazu Kenji Sensei and his group training out there..The other lines of the school teach different things...The Sato Kinbei line focuses on the Taijutsu side I believe..And there are others out there..
The SHINGAN Ryu is NOT the Yagyu ShinKAGE Ryu (–ö?¶?SŠá—¬ as opposed to –ö?¶?V‰A—¬?j and the Shinkage Ryu is not the school in question.
The Shingan Ryu DOES have kata where the sword is used to restrain the Aite..I don't know about the Shinkage Ryu but would hazard a guess that it does as well....I couldn't say.
As for the Ueshiba Menkyo..I don't know about that either..The point would be less the Menkyo he held and more the fact that he may have trained in the sword kata using the sword to restrain the Aite..I should think...
Just to help thicken this convo out some..
Regards.

Brian Owens
15th February 2005, 05:50
Originally posted by fifthchamber
Hi Brian,
I think you mean"Hi Bruce."

You and I seem to be on the same page here.

fifthchamber
15th February 2005, 05:54
Hi BRIAN!
Yep...Śä–Ć?I Sorry....Bit too many B's spoiling the broth...Or something.
We are. I had just posted and saw yours after.
Regards.

Bruce Mitchell
15th February 2005, 05:59
Thanks for the info Brian and Ben,
I guess the point that I was trying to make is that the evidence of a link between Yagyu Ryu and Aikido isn't really all that strong. I once attended a lecture by Stanley Pranin and asked him about how strongly Ueshiba's studies outside of Daito Ryu influenced him (i.e. how much experience did he really have) and was told, informally, that really everything outside of daito Ryu and the Omoto Kyo religion could be discounted.

I am not saying that your art (Brian) has no connection, just that the jury is still out on Ueshiba.

Vile
15th February 2005, 09:21
Originally posted by Bruce Mitchell
I believe that Ellis Amdur wrote an excellent article that is archived at www.koryubooks.com that strongly argues that the strongest link is between Kashima Shinryu and Aikiken.

Hello Mr. Mitchell,

I believe the article was written by Mr. Meik Skoss and it argues that the link is between Kashima ShinTÔ ryű and aikidô, not Kashima-Shinryű. While the names are rather similar, the two ryűha in question are not that similar.

http://www.koryu.com/library/mskoss3.html

Hope this helps!

Brian Owens
15th February 2005, 12:53
Originally posted by Vile
...I believe the article was written by Mr. Meik Skoss and it argues that the link is between Kashima ShinTÔ ryű and aikidô, not Kashima-Shinryű....
I, too, have heard that some of our sword techniques were developed from a Shinto Ryu foundation.

But I am still pretty sure that our "joint-manipulation with the saya" methods were based on Yagyu Shingan Ryu and expanded/evolved over time. I don't doubt that Daito Ryu and Aikido itself also played a significant role.

I can't claim the in-depth knowledge or research of Mssrs. Pranin, Skoss, or Amdur, and can only say that I am repeating what I recall being told (through an interpreter) by Kurita Shihan, who was an uchi deshi to O-sensei. (He also studied Aiki Toho under another teacher, as well as having a family history in swordsmanship outside of Aikido. Although someone has told me who one of these other teachers was, Kurita Sensei didn't name names to me, so it would not be appropriate for me to repeat them.)

chrismoses
15th February 2005, 15:19
I'll repeat it, Seiki Ryu was based largely on Nishio Sensei's Aiki Toho. I've seen all of the arts in question, and the only resemblance I've found is between Seiki Ryu and Aiki Toho. The joint locks are fairly common Aikido faire. (I could go on, but don't feel like dragging up the old, Aiki-ken is based on... debate.)

:)

Dave Humm
15th February 2005, 20:17
Although not directly sword art related, Aiki-ken (the sword practice of Aikido) has several kansetsu waza (joint locking technique) applied directly from the sword.

The origins of many (empty hand) Aikikai Aikido technique is derived from principles drawn from the use of the sword, as such, when performing aspects of nukitsuki or kirioshi if one's sword (or sword arm) is seized in an attemptd to restrict or arrest one's intent, joint locks can be quickly applied which then re-enable the origonal intent.

regards

T. ALVAREZ
15th February 2005, 23:05
Ueshiba Sensei's name is listed in the I-Mokuroku of Kashima Shinto Ryu! Though he was a member, he mainly focused on the first 12 kata known as Ichi no Tachi according to Yoshikawa Soke. These are paired kata, yet there is no joint manipulation waza within them. This could be a different story on the Ura side of the waza.
It is believed that the Ueshiba Sensei used these 12 kata to help form the Aiki-Ken sword work that is known today! I have seen some of the Aiki-Ken kata and I believe the first three look similar to the first three or four of the Ichi no Tachi kata. Not the same,but similar!
I think that there was Shinkage Ryu used as a base as well as ueshiba Sensei studied that from what I have heard as well, but could be wrong!

Earl Hartman
16th February 2005, 00:07
A minor point, but there is, to the best of my kowledge, no such thing as the "Yagyu Ryu". I assume that what was meant was the "Yagyu Shinkage Ryu".

henjoyuko
16th February 2005, 00:13
Hey Tony!,

Nice to see your post

In the context of this discussion it would probably be important to remember that “Aiki Ken” is a rather generic term, kind of like “Aikido,” and points to an enormous variety of practice. It is my understanding that not all Aikido sensei that teach, or taught, the ken learned it from Ueshiba Morihei. Of those that were exposed to ken practice under Ueshiba Morihei relatively few seem to have studied weapons with him for an extended period of time with a few notable exceptions. Consequently for many individuals practicing “Aiki Ken” today, it may be a bit of a stretch (although attractive in a romantic sense for some I’m sure) to claim a present influence of, or lasting connection to, Kashima Shinto Ryu, etc.

The history is there, but the link to it is probably strained, broken or even completely different for many.

Dave Humm
16th February 2005, 00:19
I agree entirely with the above post, Aiki ken can mean many things to an equally 'many' aikidoists, most of whom haven't been exposed to anything other than 'a bokken in the hands of an aikidoist' therefore what is seen is assumed to be Aiki ken.

Regards to all

T. ALVAREZ
16th February 2005, 01:23
Allen,
good to hear from you as well and I will be calling you later this week to discuss a few projects!
Anyway, I agree with your post 100%! I was just shedding some light on one of the possible influences that I know of. I have my own oppinions on Aiki Ken and will keep them to myself. I was not implying they were like Kashima Shinto Ryu, but saying that I have seen a few things that were similar or maybe I should say resemble some movements of the first couple of kata. That's all.

Talk to ya soon

Brian Owens
16th February 2005, 03:56
Originally posted by Earl Hartman
A minor point, but there is, to the best of my kowledge, no such thing as the "Yagyu Ryu". I assume that what was meant was the "Yagyu Shinkage Ryu".
Depends on which reference: one was possibly to Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, but several were to Yagyu Shingan Ryu. ( I don't think we brought up Yagyu Seigo Ryu. ;) )

Ellis Amdur
16th February 2005, 04:49
There were four active lineages of Yagyu Shingan-ryu when I lived in Japan. The one line, starting with Araki Mataemon (a Shinkage-ryu swordsman) and, in recent times, maintained by Muto Masao (recently deceased), bears no relationship in it's sword kata - they use a bokken little less thick than a log - with a heavy tsuba - really powerful, straightforward techniques. I'm bad with names - but the other main line was passed, I believe, by the Hoshi family. I recall seeing their batto, as well as various other weapons, but there was nothing similar to aikiken kata or movements. I've only seen the taijutsu of Sato Kinbei - it was roughly similar in kata to what the Hoshi family was doing.

Shimazu is an interesting character - studied with the Hoshi's and gathered a lot of info elsewhere. With no disrespect intended, I think it's fair to say he has extended his research so that what he does is surely very different from what Ueshiba might have encountered at the turn of the last century in the Goto-ha Yagyu Shingan-ryu.

There seems to be a fair consensus that Kashima Shinto-ryu is the primary influence of the kumi-tachi. The Yagyu Shinkage-ryu practitioners I've spoken with see no resemblence in their art and what Ueshiba/Saito presented.

Best

Brian Owens
16th February 2005, 05:45
Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
...There seems to be a fair consensus that Kashima Shinto-ryu is the primary influence of the kumi-tachi. The Yagyu Shinkage-ryu practitioners I've spoken with see no resemblence in their art and what Ueshiba/Saito presented....
I agree; in my limited experience this seems to be true. I think the confusion is that many people hear the reference to a link between Aikido and Yagyu-something, and they think it's Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. It's not. The link, if one exists, is between Aikido and Yagyu Shingan Ryu.

And that link is not in the kumitachi of Aikiken, but in some of the other ken and jo waza.

chrismoses
16th February 2005, 16:43
Brian, most lines of Aiki-ken don't have much else besides kumitachi. Even with the jo, there's a (28-31) jo kata and a few paired forms against bokken. Saotome's Aiki-ken is taught as kumitachi and variations on those kumitachi, Iwama Aiki-ken (what most people think of as Aiki-ken) is taught primarily as kumitachi, Chiba seems to be pushing MSR as his weapons system of choice, and Nishio has his Aiki-toho which was obviously influenced by his Iai training. There just isn't much other ken waza past the kumitachi. As always I'm open for corrections, but that's been my experience.

Walker
17th February 2005, 03:01
Chris, don't forget about your buddies down south who have a bunch of Shirata aiki-ken with kata and kumitachi derived from kami knows where.

Dave Humm
17th February 2005, 03:25
Originally posted by chrismoses
Brian, most lines of Aiki-ken don't have much else besides kumitachi. Even with the jo, there's a (28-31) jo kata and a few paired forms against bokken. Saotome's Aiki-ken is taught as kumitachi and variations on those kumitachi, Iwama Aiki-ken (what most people think of as Aiki-ken) is taught primarily as kumitachi, Chiba seems to be pushing MSR as his weapons system of choice, and Nishio has his Aiki-toho which was obviously influenced by his Iai training. There just isn't much other ken waza past the kumitachi. As always I'm open for corrections, but that's been my experience.

Chris,

Have you never seen Ikkyo ude osae, Nikyo kote hineri, Hiji and a few more kansetsu waza applied whilst holding either bokken and or katana ? Katakatame applied whilst carrying one's undrawn sword, Kote gaeshi applied as a response to someone attempting to seize one's tsuka, Aiki-ken isn't simply a set of kumitachi as you might suggest.

Regards

chrismoses
17th February 2005, 03:37
Sorry Doug, but you guys are just so darn forgettable. I'll try harder next time. :D

OK, Dave, what you've listed I would consider Aikido applications of the bokken. This means that rather than having sword influences affecting ones Aikido, the tewaza of Aikido is being applied with a weapon. In my mind, Aiki-ken must be techniques *using* the bokken and is distinct from tachi-dori or kaeshiwaza using Aikido principles. All of these things would trace their existance primarily to Daito-Ryu and not a kenjutsu ryu-ha.

Hope that helps, I stand by my earlier statement. Except for Doug, or Steve or whatever his name is down there in Portland. ;) Say "Hi" to the kami for me.

Brian Owens
17th February 2005, 03:59
Originally posted by chrismoses
...In my mind, Aiki-ken must be techniques *using* the bokken and is distinct from tachi-dori or kaeshiwaza using Aikido principles....
I see that as a distinction, too; which is why I said, "And that link [if it exists] is not in the kumitachi of Aikiken, but in some of the other ken and jo waza."

Dave Humm
17th February 2005, 03:59
They are (however you wish to define them) jointlocks using the sword (or bokken in my case) which was the subject of the first post.

Regards

Walker
18th February 2005, 07:50
In my limited experience I find that the stuff that gets done with ken is of a different quality as contrasted with the jointlocks of jujutsu (of whatever brand.) One just doesn't need the same level of structural disruption when edged weapons esp. ken are in play. The slightest hiccup, stumble, misalignment, or off balance and you are cut. Tieing up joints and twisting arms simply is not needed (although some schools are fans of overkill.) Conversely some of the more subtle aikiesque stuff may not be enough when weapons are not present. Making someone stumble might be enough to make them mad, but it is not decisive or conclusive.

So I would second Chris' caution about mistaking illustrations of taijutsu concepts for the techniques of kenjutsu and vice versa.

chrismoses
18th February 2005, 20:09
How about an example from my Aikido background and my Battojutsu background to flush out the difference I see.

I have learned and taught a shomen(uchi) kotegaeshi in Aikido class where both uchitachi/uke and shitachi/nage start with bokken. Uke attacks, nage steps to the outside deflecting the attack down, then grabs onto the back of uke's right hand (a la kotegaeshi) and basically does a tenkan kotegaeshi in order to throw. This move uses sword movements, but it nearly identical to an open hand version of shomenuchi kotegaeshi. There is nothing special about the fact that I have a bokken in my hand, the same technique could be done with little change if I had a jo, tessen or tanto. I am using the bokken, to further the understanding of the Aikido technique of shomenuchi kotegaeshi.

In Shinto Ryu's kata "tsuka otoshi" we in effect perform kotegaeshi on uchitachi. This is all done from within a swordmans' perspective, if you will, taking advantages of the sword not available to open hand work and strategizing to deploy the sword as the final goal, rather than throw the person. From Seiza, as the attacker comes to take shitachi's sword, shitachi secures the tsuba with the left hand and covers the kashira with their thumb, then proceeds to break the zyphoid process of uchitachi/uke. We then turn the tsuka and attempt a simple break out (common to many arts: Aikido, jujutsu, BJJ...). This doesn't work however so we use the leverage of the sheathed katana to break the attacker's wrist/thow them simultaneously positioning them where it will be easy for us to draw and sever their neck. I use this example because while the final effect on uke/uchitachi's body is quite similar, they are vastly different mindsets. Applying Aikido techniques and principles to weapon work is what I would consider Riai as opposed to Aiki-ken/ aiki-jo. In the kumitachi, we see the essence of aiki-ken because the movements, while supposedly common with aikido, are done as sword/bokken work. The examples people have cited, to me at least, fall clearly into the oyowaza (application techniques) of Aikido rather than adding to the richness of Aiki-ken.

Your mileage may vary, you are more than welcome to disagree.

El Guapo-san
19th February 2005, 12:13
If I'm reading these right, then maybe have a look at the Muto Dori from Takagi Yoshin. There are some locks, etc. there.

J. Vlach