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Jody Holeton
17th November 2000, 03:26
Dear all,


Just came back from visiting a local Judo class and I did some ground-fighting with some jujitsu people. I kept on getting stuck in the mount and the guy on top spinning an arm bar on me, juji gatame.

What is a good defense against the mount and juji gatame?

I mean other than somebody NOT getting the mount on you...

Thanks, I appreciate any input--Jody

kusanku
17th November 2000, 06:48
Jody-

Get hold of the little finger side of his right hand with your right hand, and twist his wrist to the right, locking his elbow out and his shoulder out. Now push up diagonally to the right with your right hand and watch 'im fly!:D

Reverse instructions for left hand grab.If they punch down at you, block with upward palm thrusts to the inside of their arms, just like they do.

As one jiujitsu sandan, friend of mine, said when I did this to him after letting him get the mount position, and as he did rollout across the floor to alleviate the pain,'That works Real Good, John!':-)

As for jujigatame, keep your arm bent amd elbow next to your rib, in close, tighten and close the fist, and they shouldn't be able to get this on you.

If they are standing and try, step into them and pull yourself upto your elbow, fist as in karate chamber position.

In real situation if someone tries juji on you standing, this works real well if you punch with the other fist to target of opportunity as you do this.

Don't let those folks intimidate you, their waza have holes in them as big as any one else's!:-)

Kusanku

[Edited by kusanku on 11-17-2000 at 12:50 AM]

Ryu
17th November 2000, 08:14
Jody,

Defending the mount is about position above all else. Jujigatame gets quite easy to pull off if the downed opponent gives his arm to a good newaza or bjjer. Usually the man on top will position himself to purposly expose the arm or elbow in order to get the lock. The beauty of it is that the downed man doesn't realize he is being set up.
First keep your arms in! Your elbows should press down against the knees of the top man. Keep your forearms close, and be aware of extending an arm to push, pull, or get space. This is what he's looking for. Keeping your arms close to your chest, and elbows pushing the top mans knees down keeps him from gaining a more crucial mount position where he places his body higher on your chest, and his knees slide under your armpits. If this happens, keep your arms close, and slide up by pushing with your feet on the ground.
Next step would be to escape the mount without exposing your arms. In portuguese, the common term for the main mount escape is called "upa."
To do this you make sure to keep good position, then wrap your right arm over and around his left arm (or left to right). Once you have this, pull him down to you, and keep your arm and his pinned tightly to your side. Your left hand should be placed on his hip, but again DO NOT extend it. Make sure that you trap the foot on the same side of the trapped arm. So with your own foot, hook the top man's foot on the same side you have his arm. Now his stability in threatened. The "upa" is a bump. With your free foot, push on the ground and push up (not over!). Try to touch the top man's head to the ground above you. Now that he is raised up, his arm and foot are trapped, and with your LEFT hand on his hip you can now turn him sideways. With skill and power, he'll go right over :)
Another great escape is what's called "elbow escape".
When you press down on his knees with your elbows, bump up quickly, and turn to one side. Create a space with your elbow by pushing his knee down and out while bringing your closest knee in through the little "hole" you create. Keep pushing his leg down while pulling your leg in. Pull your leg through the space, and bump up to the other side repeating the same sequence. This should position you into the guard.
These are hard to describe on the net, but any good BJJ video will show you these wonderfully. You can pull these off, but it takes practice and much randori time to perfect them :)
A move to counter the actual jujigatame is based on timing.
When the top man spins around your arm to fall into jujigatame, bump up like I mentioned before, and get to your side while pulling your elbow into your side. This can allow you to escape the armlock, get to your knees, and reverse position. I did this against a much more experienced BJJer in some intense randori numerous times. It works great, but timing is everything, and again it's all about mat time.
I hope this helped. Take care, and train hard.

Ryu

Arashi
17th November 2000, 11:59
Hi all.

I believe there is a tape by one of the Gracies (Rorion or Renzo) titled "escaping the mount position", search for it and you will find the Gracie Jiu Jitsu way of doing it. Now, as John pointed there are other ways, specially if you are not in a friendly match, with rules (believe it or not, there ARE rules even in Gracie Jiu Jitsu). I work out a little with some Gracie guys (i teach them Aikido) and one thing that allways work is to go for the leg. Leglocks are not practiced a lot in Gracie Jiu Jitsu (and are practiced a lot in Sambo, another Judo derivative art, go figure) and they tend not to know how to react when you get hold of their leg and lock their knee. Another thing that will really work if you are fast is to grab the guy's groin and squeese, and if the guy closes up to choke you, insteadt of going to the juji gatame or trying to hit you, poke him in both eyes with your thumbs, as i said this are dirty ways (the leglock is not so dirty) and there are legal ways also, so my suggestion to buy the tape remains. I believe some experienced judoka (Mark, Ben, where are you?) will have Judo ways to dealing with it also.Ganbatte.

Toni Rodrigues

MarkF
18th November 2000, 11:45
Hi Bill,
A great description, and you said I think, is to work, either inside him, or from a distance. Space is your good buddy.

First things first. Don't try to pull away from tori, go with him, and, as was already described in fine detail, keep your arm(s) bent and in close. There is always an escape and/or reverse. In a gendai JJ club, you have a much wider available list of weapons, all are fine. Usually, if you don't mess with the face, everything else is up to you. Hair usually can be pulled, etc.

Just remain relaxed, breathe regularly, and never push if he is pushing. If he wants your arm, going inside will prevent the arm lock from happening. He is doing all the work now, so always go in same direction. He pulls, go with, and stay inside. Never resist.

If you can get past the legs, and remain on top, at the lower abdominal area, there is a pin I learned which my first teacher called "full body control." (I cannot remember the term for it, and so far, I've not seen it elsewhere).

First, grapevine the legs, out, in and slightly out again, and stretch. With your left arm (it can be done from either side easily) go under his right, and under the head. With your right, get a hold on the wrist, hand, forearm, and with the other, form a kind of figure four, left arm under his right, forming an elbow lock. If you are stretching with your legs, just this motion can lead to a tap out, but if you have all four limbs controlled, he won't be able to tap. Even if you cannot get the arm lock, placing both arms under or over his, you can smother him, and at the same time, place your head against the outside of his arm, such as in kata gatame, and there is little he can do. Once cinched, it is very difficult (but certainly not impossible) to avoid, and with your long legs, it can be very painfull, believe me.

Practice escapes. Katami randori should not be avoided, and learning escpapes helps to understand how to maintain the same on him. Actually, allowing yourself to be placed in any osaekomi may teach you how to create the space you need to work with. Make sure it is cinched on you, but just relax and remember to breathe. Great strength is not needed, but proper strength in the appropriate area, is. If you are tori, allow for no space, and keep your center low, and as spread out as possible. When uke tries to create the space, lower yourself even more, and never be suckered into going the opposite way.

I've forgotten a lot, but I'm sure Jeff, Ed, Bill, etc., will fill in the holes.

BTW: Leg locks are coming and will soon be seen in international competition. It is never too early....

Mark