Special Forces Question

[TommyK]

Greetings,

I met someone who claims to have been in U.S. Army Special Forces 1966 through 1968, including time in country. I plan to discuss his training back then with him. I am hoping one of you could briefly outline the type of, and location of training, in that time period. I don't doubt this guy, but I want to make sure that his story correlates with the real thing.

Thanks and regards,
TommyK

[Nathan Scott]

Hi,

I wasn't there, but I remember that the TET offensive was in 1968 (a big deal). I'm sure you could get the exact date from a web search.

HTH,

[Joseph Svinth]

Ask to see an original copy of his DD214. (You don't want a Xerox copy, as it is amazing what one can do with a copying machine.) Then make a copy of that document. (If he "lost" his 214, no problem, get his SSN and we'll request one from St. Louis.)

Once you have the 214, look at the schools and awards. Real SF people will have graduated from various schools that are not classified, and these will be on the 214 as they justify the wearing of the tab and beanie. Time in country is also documented by various firewatch ribbons that the phoneys almost always screw up.

For medals, if he is normal, then then probably he has a Silver Star and/or a Bronze Star with V (multiple awards are possible) a Purple Heart (multiple awards are possible), and a Combat Infantry Badge.

As for the tab, ask for copies of the DA Forms 1059 documenting attendance at the various schools.

He should have some photos. One group should show him at schools in the States and the others will show him in Vietnam. The latter should show a bunch of kids waving guns or getting drunk.

And he has stories. If they start out, "And there I was" and focus on his heroics, then probably he is a drugstore commando. But if his stories mostly tell of dead or wounded friends, of slick drivers pulling him out of hot LZs under appalling conditions, of the craters where Thuds crispycrittered into the trees, and of the Kit Carsons who taught him to stay alive, then pay attention, you just might learn something.

[Jeff Cook]

Joe,

Did they use 1059's back then?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[George Ledyard]

Originally posted by Jeff Cook
Joe,

Did they use 1059's back then?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Couldn't we please find another way of describing that period other than as "back then"? Being one of only two people in my dojo old enough to even remember that period as an adult is bad enough, I already feel old. But I usually use terms like "back then" to refer to the 1800's and before. The sixties and seventies feel like just the other day to me. Have mercy.

[Cady Goldfield]

Originally posted by George Ledyard

Originally posted by Jeff Cook
Joe,

Did they use 1059's back then?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Couldn't we please find another way of describing that period other than as "back then"? Being one of only two people in my dojo old enough to even remember that period as an adult is bad enough, I already feel old. But I usually use terms like "back then" to refer to the 1800's and before. The sixties and seventies feel like just the other day to me. Have mercy.

Oh yeah, you don't want to feel old, George? Then, how do you explain *this* date entry in your E-Budo profile:

(Actual text in George's self-placed biography)

******************

Biography:
Shotokan Karate in college 1773/74 no rank
*********************

So, now we know where you got your CQC experience: helping fight the Brits during the Revolution.

Quick, everyone, check it out before George wises up and revamps his profile... :laugh:

Cady
"Feelin' like a spring chicken compared to George. Highschool Class o' '74... 1974, that is"

[TommyK]

Hi,

I graduated high school in 1968, so I guess I'm somewhere between George and Cady. While all of this is interesting, I'd really like to get some serious stuff outlined here.

I appreciate Joe's response, but I'd rather have the first discussion without demanding to see someones personal military records. I mean if most SF trained at Fort Bragg, and the fellow I will be talking to says he trained at Fort Dix, then I know something may be off and would allow me to request documentation. So please can some of you just outline some basic training locations and content from that time period?

Thanks,
TommyK

[Joseph Svinth]

Start with the photo collection. Everybody has some pictures. Also check his date of birth. To have been in SF in SF in 1966, he must have been born before 1949, and more likely, before 1946. (Since the job requires a security clearance, he cannot have been underage, as the background check finds things like that.)

Whatever you do, don't trust unofficial certificates, as you can buy these cheaply. See, for example, http://www.nic-inc.com/products/p25.htm . (FWIW, I once wrote a well-known Asian instructor for proof he had various medals and military service claimed. He sent me this kind of garbage, and I've had no use for him ever since. Some folks have told me it is rude to ask suspected frauds for their certificates -- you just don't do that to Asians, even ones who live in the US for thirty years or so -- but the Nisei tell me that if you have a question about a man, you ask him if he's alive and his family if he's not. So that's what I do.)

For a bibliography of Special Operations units in Viet Nam see http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~eemoise/armyspec.html . For an introductory website, try http://members.aol.com/armysof1/Vietnam.html . Online, see http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/vietnam/90-23/90-231.htm

BTW, running a name through Google sometimes turns up information, as some of the more notorious wannabes are already listed. See, for example, http://home.att.net/~Lzzzbolt/ . (Follow the links and you can find the Fake SEAL sites, too.) Likewise, you can probably ask a question at one of the closed SF-member only websites. See, for example, the ones listed at http://www.militarydataresource.com/group_sf.htm

Bottom line? Turn the ol' BS meter on full. If you have doubts, there is probably a reason.

[Edited by Joseph Svinth on 11-18-2000 at 04:28 AM]

[Joseph Svinth]

Jeff --

I don't know about the Army, but the USMC always gave certificates and orders showing school completion and awards. I don't recall if the form was a 1059 in the 1960s, but there was surely something comparable as I required such documentation before posting awards to anyone's 2-1.

As for the wannabes who say the school somehow failed to make it on their 214, well, http://leav-www.army.mil/aarts/Corrections.htm -- the Army has methods for correction, thank you very much. Imagine that. Use the SSN and request a 214 from http://www.nara.gov/regional/stlouis.html . You can download the SF 180 at http://www.nara.gov/regional/mprsf180.html .

Anyway, I have known three LRRPs from the ca. 1970 era and one SF guy from the Laos in 1959 era, and all of them had paperwork up the yingyang; one of the LRRPs even showed the Richard Threlkeld CBS Evening News footage showing him being shot in the hip (you can see the puff of smoke from the AK in the treeline if you look).

That said, my favorite LRRP story has to do with these guys in the National Guard. (All these guys became serious REMFs upon reenlisting. To wit: Brigade engineer NCO, a journalist, and a cook...) The cook caused no problems because he didn't even wear a combat patch; a cheapskate, he said he would have to buy half a dozen patches and then have them sewn on, and he didn't want to waste the money. The engineer wore a corps patch, so nobody noticed. The journalist, though, wore a scroll that he'd saved from 1971. The 75th Rangers complained, saying that the scroll was a wannabe patch that was never authorized. The journalist brought this to the attention of his former LRRP company XO, who at the time happened to be the Assistant Division Commander, 9th Infantry Division, and I guess the general and the 75th Rangers worked things out, because we never heard any more noise from that direction about unauthorized patches being worn by members of the Washington Army National Guard.

[Jeff Cook]

Sorry, George - I just remembered "back then" the horse-drawn artillery piece was an M-1059. Sorry for the confusion :).

Joe,

Be careful with the SF 180 thing. The request has to come from the individual himself, the deceased's next of kin, or other authorized party (check out Sections II and III of the form). A casual inquiry from an unrelated party is not authorized. Don't forget the Privacy Act of 1974!

I am an admin NCO, and I certainly respect some of the things that you had to do to get the job done (how many times did you sign the cdr's signature, I wonder?:)) But trust me, people are looking at these and related requests with a new scrutiny these days - I have found that out in the course of my job recently.

Contact me directly and I will fill you in on some "other ways" to get the job done.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[AST]

Tommys's question reminds me of a similar incident I experienced.

In South Africa our special forces were known as Reconnaissance Commandos or Recces. The Recces were the best of the best as far as infantry went. I think the unit in its 20 year lifespan only produced about 250 members, however if you ever frequent a few bars you would think that that number was the square root or something.

Anyway 8 years back at a birthday party I met a friend of a friend, who was supposed to have been a Recce. Naturally I was suspicious. We got drinking and he told us this story of them on an underwater demo mission in Angola. The team leader was attacked by a crocodile and the thing was beaten off. They pulled the man out the water, stapled him together, climbed back in and attempted to complete the mission. Nice story thought nothing further of it.

Last year a comprehensive biography of the Reconnaissance unit was released, including classified material released by the army. Needless to say, wasn't I surprised to find the same story reprinted and verified with names, in black and white.

This little incident is just one of many I'm sure. However it highlights the fate of SF operators who can never take claim for their achievements because of 6 million wannabes screwing it up for them. It seems that these days everyones a Seal.

What was it that Oscar Wilde said.
They know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

[Joseph Svinth]

I've heard a lot of the whoppers (including a number from Rhodesia and South Africa; Mad Mick Doyle was full of them), but in general if you quit buying them beer they go away. As for requesting information from St. Louis using SF 180, according to the information posted at the St. Louis site http://www.nara.gov/regional/mprfoiap.html#mprpriv :

Quote

The public has access to certain military service information without the veteran's authorization (or that of the next-of-kin of deceased veterans). Examples of information which may be available from Official Military Personnel Files without an unwarranted invasion of privacy include:

Name
Service Number
Rank
Dates of Service
Awards and decorations
Place of entrance and separation

If the veteran is deceased:

Place of birth
Date and geographical location of death
Place of burial

END QUOTE

As for why you want the information, don't forge, just include a note saying that you are conducting research and want to verify some information about this individual. I haven't lied to anybody yet, and have always gotten enough for my purposes.

[Jeff Cook]

Joe,

All I can say is "good luck." What ARPECEN says and does is very frequently two different things. Maybe the other records custodians for the other services are different. I have attempted to do this in the past, per their instructions, and have been shot down every time, both in writing and on the phone.

As your quote says, they "may" provide the information. Apparently they have become much more paranoid in recent years, or maybe I've been dealing with the wrong clerks.

Any other advice you could provide me to get around their reticence I would greatly appreciate. I don't like to use "other ways."

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Edited by Jeff Cook on 11-19-2000 at 12:57 PM]

[Joseph Svinth]

If all you're doing is checking wannabes, usually an e-mail to the old boys network provides sufficient answer. These are tiny communities, after all.

But if try to get a copy of a DD214, in the block asking why you want this information, say you're writing a book or something, that way you fall into the "Scholarly non-commercial" bracket, and aren't charged extensive fees.

Now, if that doesn't work, don't forget your Freedom of Information Act request. The Federal government cannot file FOIA, but fortunately the Military Department of the State of Florida is a state agency so that's no problem. See, for example, http://www.mobar.org/press/medhnbk7.htm . Since St. Louis is in Missouri, this site, maintained by the Missouri Bar Association, is probably relevant.

This is stated explicitly here: http://16thinfantry-regiment.org/Army_Records_Index/army_records_index.html . To wit:

Morning reports, 1917-1974
(In 1974 the Army discontinued the use of
morning reports and switched to PDC cards.
PDC cards are also in the custody of the NPRC.)

National Personnel Records Center
(Military Personnel Records)
9700 Page Avenue
St. Louis, MO 63132-5100

... Unit operational records, 1939-1954,
and 1954 to present for units which served in
Southeast Asia

Archives II Textual Reference Branch
National Archives and Records Administration
8601 Adelphi Road
College Park, MD 20740-6001
(301)-713-7250

Unit rosters, 1917-present, Regular Army

For the soldier himself:

National Personnel Records Center
(Military Personnel Records)
9700 Page Avenue
St. Louis, MO 63132-5100

For the public (please submit request under the Freedom of Information Act):

U.S. Army Reserve Personnel Center
ATTN: ARPC-IMP-F (FOIA)
9700 Page Avenue
St. Louis, MO 63123-5200

***

Some additional advice: http://www.100thww2.org/aid/priaid.html

Reviewing morning reports at the Archives in St. Louis requires some advance planning. Start the process by sending a letter to the Department of the Army, Freedom of Information Act/Public Affairs Division asking for permission to visit the Archives and review microfilm. You must specify the unit(s) and the period(s) of time you wish to research. Send letters to:

FOIA/PA Division
USAISC-P (AS-QNS-OP-F)
Crystal Square #2, Suite 201
1725 Jefferson Davis Hwy
Arlington, VA 22202

...

If you cannot travel to St. Louis, the staff there can do the research for you. To take advantage of this, send a letter to the same address in St. Louis, listing the unit(s) and period(s) in which you are interested. Include a check or money order (payable to National Personnel Records Center) for $8.30 which is their minimum fee. This is a deposit against the cost of the copies they will make for you. (You will be billed for any additional charges when the copies are sent to you.) The first 6 copies cost $3.60 (for all 6); each additional copy is $.10. In addition, you will be billed $13.25/hour for the clerical search and processing time. It normally takes 10-12 weeks to receive the material you have requested, but experience shows that it can take up to six months. In addition, there may be considerable detail deleted from the reports by censors, in consideration of the Privacy Act of 1974.




[Edited by Joseph Svinth on 11-20-2000 at 12:58 AM]