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Stéphan Thériault
17th November 2000, 08:25
This was posted on Aikido Journal's Daito-ryu history section. And I was wondering what people here think about it?

http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum21/HTML/000012.html

Paul Steadman
18th November 2000, 10:26
Hi Stephan,

I have a photo-copy of a few pages of a book from a kum-do (Korean Kendo) group in Sydney, Australia which I came accross by way of a MJER Iaijutsu instructor. The pages describe how the Koreans did in fact utilise native, Chinese and Japanese swordsmanship and imported Japanese swords! All the best.

Regards,

Paul Steadman
Shidokai Koden Bujutsu

glad2bhere
21st November 2000, 15:59
Dear Stephan:

Thanks for drawing attention to my contribution on the AIKIDO JOURNAL Net. I do a lot of research on the inter-relationships between the Japanese and Korean martial arts but am not about to pretend I know a tenth of what I wish I did. The earliest martial relationship I have been able to find has been a request for assistance of the Yamate culture sometime during the 3rd or 4th century in a conflict between Paekche and Shilla. There is also on-going excavations of burial mounds in (western) Japan that support martial influence right up to the Kamakura period between Korea and Japan. Then, of course, there are the thousands of forays by Japanese pirates (Wako) throughout the eastern Pacific Rim. So there is no lack of material regarding exchange of martial tradition between the two cultures, and I haven't even mentioned the two invasions of the late 1500-s. The problem is documenting this stuff, and since the two invasions each by the Mongols, Japanese and Manchus respectively did a pretty good job of erasing much written material what is left is a biomechanical examination and comparison of technique. And so my question...

Oddly enough the other comment made is a prime motive for much of my research. You would not believe how many people can only identify Korean arts as defined by Japanese martial tradition. For instance TKD is "Japanese Karate mixed with Taek Kyon", Hapkido is "just Korean Aikido", and Kumdo is "just Kendo", and Yudo is Judo. Actually the Korean people have been importing material from their neighbors and exporting material to their neighbors for centuries. IMHO the problem is that most MA scholars have a hard time doing comparative studies without ultimately trying to rationalize placing one art above another. But thats just me.

If anyone could help out with this work I would be glad to work anyone who wants to pitch in.

Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com

Cady Goldfield
21st November 2000, 16:47
But Bruce,
A lot of Korean arts WERE defined by Japanese influence. Most of it occurred during the Japanese occupation of Japan, around a 40 year span. Even my former TKD teacher's teacher (Gen. Hong Hi Choi) admits in his big encyclopedia of TKD that he had trained in karate while in Japan. All of Choi's forms are modified Shotokan forms. I know, because I trained in both arts. If you look at old films of Jhoon Rhee (the so-called "father of American TKD", you'll see that he is plying karate waza. In fact, he called it "Korean Karate." Gumdo practitioners back in the 50s and 60s were doing same.

I agree that Korean influence has given new directions to originally-Japanese arts. TKD has since evolved away from looking like karate to the point that when you watch TKDers spar, and watch them do forms, it looks like they are performing in two totally different arts. In essence, they are.

Similarly, gumdo is Japanese kendo that has, over a fairly short time, come to take on more of the Korean persona. But when it was first practiced in Korea, there was no real input from any indigenous sword arts. I believe that such arts are all late-comers. During the occupation, only Japanese arts were permitted in Korea, and much was lost.

Instead of trying to figure out where things came from, I believe it is more interesting and productive to see where they are going. As Koreans emerged into independence from their former conquerers, what is essentially Korean began to come through in all of their practices as they rebuilt their culture.

Margaret Lo
21st November 2000, 17:19
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
But Bruce,
A lot of Korean arts WERE defined by Japanese influence.

...During the occupation, only Japanese arts were permitted in Korea, and much was lost.

Instead of trying to figure out where things came from, I believe it is more interesting and productive to see where they are going. As Koreans emerged into independence from their former conquerers, what is essentially Korean began to come through in all of their practices as they rebuilt their culture.

But, it is precisely because so much was lost during the occupation that "where things are going" is going to lead straight to the past. How else can one tell what is "essentially Korean" except by knowing history? I hazard to state that many Koreans have an interest in rediscovering and recovering what was lost/stolen, especially in the fine arts - but perhaps this recovery effort exists in the martial arts as well?

In painting, for example, many works attributed to the Japanese were actually by Korean painters, but because the painting was in a Japanese collection, it was believed to be a Japanese work. :burnup:

How much of Japanese MA owes technique to the Koreans? Early Japanese swords were straight were they not? Where did the early Japanese get their swords - assuming sword making was imported to Japan?

I for one would be very interested in learning a little more about what indigenous Korean MA were like in the 1800s and before. The difficulty is that anyone doing research probably has to read Korean, Japanese and Chinese.

M

[Edited by Margaret Lo on 11-21-2000 at 11:38 AM]

Cady Goldfield
21st November 2000, 17:57
Good, thought-provoking questions, Margaret.

I do know that it's widely believed that the Koreans gave the Japanese many of their kicking techniques -- derived from the remnants of the ancestral Korean kicking art, Taekyon. Most Japanese hand-to-hand arts were derived from armored combatants' needs, and thus had little in the way of kicking. When the armor was gone and fighting was on the streets and in dojo, kicks became a desireable commodity, and the Koreans were the ones to supply them.

In return, I believe that the Koreans learned punching and striking techniques from the Japanese and Okinawan arts, and got much of their grappling from Japan as well. The native wrestling form, ssirum, may have contributed something, but I doubt that much was absorbed into martial systems from it. And Korean indigenous fist arts -- soobakhee and kwonbup -- were not really combat methods, I believe, and were meant for competition and sport from the start.

I'm nearly positive that the hip-torque/forward acceleration/gravity etc. method of deriving punching power came into the Korean arts from Japan. Choi himself developed his "sine wave" theory of power/force from his studies in shotokan. One of the saddest things I've seen, regarding my beloved TKD, is that modern proponents of the art have largely lost the powerful hand/upper body techniques they'd gotten from Japanese arts. They have replaced them with acrobatics that are decidedly non-martial but which look nice in tournaments.

The few indigenous bits and pieces remaining in Korea -- a bit of soobakhee, taekyon and kwonbup, may be too incomplete for Koreans to rebuild into genuine, functioning martial systems on their own. What they got from combining taekyon legwork, kicks and strategies with those of Japanese punching, striking and grappling, actually leave them with more useful material to work with.

As for sword arts, the Koreans were constantly being disarmed and deprived of weapons by their conquerers, including the Japanese. I doubt that there is any largely-indigenous sword art remaining in Korea.

glad2bhere
21st November 2000, 21:20
Dear Cady:

I think I understand what you are saying, but I would have used the word “influenced” rather than “defined”. I also think the example you used (the Japanese Occupation) is a good example. While the Korean population was often relocated to Japan to support the war effort and there was a significant Japanese population moved to Korea to exploit the resources, aspects of Korean culture survived well until the 1930-s. At that time the Japanese occupation got tired of dealing with Korean nationalism under the surface and decided to remake the culture with a Japanese face. The damage was terrible but aspects of the culture were able to survive.
Certainly there was Karate in Korea and as you say there are a number of sources to support this. However, the original art of Soo bahk also survived, though in the two documented cases of such teachers both were honest enough to report that a large portion of the curriculum had been lost.
The same holds true for Kumdo which while influenced by Ken-jitsu and Kendo, is biomechanically distinct from these arts in its own right. Is there a lot that survives? No, not really. Organizations such as the Mu Ye 24 Ban and Hai Dong Kumdo attempt to resurrect and revivify the Korean arts but it is difficult as the older generation dies.
The same holds true for Korean Staff (which is distinctly different from Japanese Bo), Korean Crescent Sword (as separate from the Japanese Naginata), Ssirrum as opposed to Sumo, Korean Kwon-bup vs Japanese Kempo, Korean vs Japanese archery, Korean and Japanese Order of Battle, and so on. Not that much of this was not borrowed from the Koreans’ continental neighbors (especially the Chinese) but all interpreted in a manner distinctly Korean.
As you know, unlike the Japanese culture, the Korean culture does not enjoy the luxury of the Ryu-ha system which archived much of historic Japanese martial culture for posterity. However, translations of historic works such as the COMPREHESIVE ILLUSTRATED MANUAL OF MARTIAL ARTS recently produced give us a view into martial tradition c.1790 and that work predicated on works going back to the Japanese invasion under H. Toyotomi in 1592. How could one walk away from a heritage such as this? I like to think of it a bit like reconstructing a damaged piece of art, perhaps a fresco on a chapel wall. I suppose one could argue to simply whitewash it over, but there are those who will painstakingly reconstruct such damage and enrich our bond with our heritage.
I appreciate that the MA you study enjoys the benefits of stemming from a culture which has not known an invasion to the home islands in over a millenium. Not all cultures have been so fortunate. Whatismore there have been efforts by Korean nationals to market what is attractive to consumers and deride the balance as anachronistic cultural refuse. The martial sports of TKD and Kumdo are two sterling examples. A culture whose organized martial traditions stem back to the 3rd and 4th century, I think, deserves better than that, yes?
Before I close out this little missive, I want to mention to Margaret that she can find some of the material she mentioned (“…indigenous Korean MA were like in the 1800-s and before…”) in the on-going Daito-ryu/Hapkido site of AIKIDO JOURNAL.COM. Thanks for listening.
Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com

Cady Goldfield
22nd November 2000, 15:52
Originally posted by glad2bhere
I appreciate that the MA you study enjoys the benefits of stemming from a culture which has not known an invasion to the home islands in over a millenium. Not all cultures have been so fortunate. Whatismore there have been efforts by Korean nationals to market what is attractive to consumers and deride the balance as anachronistic cultural refuse. The martial sports of TKD and Kumdo are two sterling examples. A culture whose organized martial traditions stem back to the 3rd and 4th century, I think, deserves better than that, yes?

Bruce,
Keep in mind that I came up in Korean arts, and remained in a Korean system for more than 20 years. For more than half of that time, I trained with a very traditional Korean teacher who at first eschewed the watering down of combat arts into sport, so I had an opportunity to learn the best of what "old" Korean arts once offered. During that time, I did a lot of research, fueled by my passion for the arts. Much of what I turned up was muddy, revisionist history driven by nationalism. It is extremely difficult to get anything written by an objective Korean! :)

While I train in and study Japanese arts now, my roots are in Korean systems, and the bulk of my knowledge is still there as well. In that position, I cannot help but see how thoroughly altered Korea's martial arts were, and how thoroughly they were replaced by Japanese systems and influences. Only in the past 25 years have they begun to evolve into forms which reflect Korean sensibilities. But as we've noted, too much has been lost from old arts to rebuild old systems. Koreans must take what remains and re-invent what was lost, or else create from scratch based on modern societal needs and directions.

glad2bhere
22nd November 2000, 18:24
Dear Cady:

When you mentioned TKD I didn't realize how much experience you had in it. Congratulations in being able to train under a traditional teacher.

If what I am hearing you say is accurate I think that "revisionist" garbage is the same stuff I ran into when I first started digging. I am sure that each nation/culture wants to be seen in the best possible light but you are absolutely right. When I first started doing research in this area it was like peeling an onion (and sometimes smelled as bad). The first layer was responses like, "I am the teacher. When I want the truth I will tell you what it is!" When I dug a little deeper the responses were more defensive ("what are you digging around in that for?"). The deeper I go the more resistance I run into. You would think that people would be glad to put the pieces back together, but I am finding much the opposite. There are individuals who have built some pretty important organizations based on their revised idea of Korean martial tradition and followers of these organizations see any attempt to identify other positions than theirs as an attack. Things can get pretty dicey sometimes.

The fact is Korean warriors, just like warriors in all cultures, were just average citizens with above average training and above average responsibilities. Its our modern culture that keeps painting either horns or halos on these figures. The truth about these people and the way they lived is somewhere in between "horns and halos". The problem is that if we don't identify the truth, some dork comes along and fills in the vacuum with BS and that makes the job of legit research even harder. Now the false conclusions need to be debunked before the real stuff can be uncovered. The case of TKD or TSD being used by by HwaRang warriors is a great example. That crap floated around in the 60-s and 70-s and maybe even into the 80-s.

There is a slow but steady stream of good material out there but its not found in BlACK BELT magazine, falling off the shelves in the MA section of Barnes and Nobles or published by Paladin Press. I also understand that there is a body of material in Korea itself which remains mostly untouched owing largely to the American aversion to learning foreaign languages (a condition I hope to remedy for myself in the coming year).

I guess as I close this out I find the MA in my life not unlike owning an automobile (now work with me on this). Some people just buy 'em and drive 'em and never want to know how they work. At the other end are people who purposely buy a beater with the idea of restoring it. I'm about in the middle where I do more than just the average maintanence and a bit more, but will never be in the league of OS Takeda or GM Choi and construct the whole shiney jalopy from scratch, Ne?

I'll be home tomorrow with the G/C (ages 4 and 2).

Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com