Choke Sweet Spot

[Duke343]

I am still looking for the elusive "sweet spot" after all these years, maybe someone out there can help!

Here's the deal...

Years ago, while at a "clinic", I was randoriing/goofing off with an old man high ranked in jujutsu/ judo/ aikido etc... and with one finger, while standing, he choked me out!!! It was the most amazing thing that I ever saw. He was gripping my left lapel with his right hand high up by the "triangle" and with the middle knuckle of his index finger put me out with a few ounces of pressure. Quick, like snapping your fingers. Not a strike, a minor increase in pressure. I didn't know he was doing anything until I woke up!

I asked how he did it and he said he knew how to hit the sweet spot. He said most people could choke in about 6 to 8 seconds, 4 if you are good, but a master can choke in less than a second. If I hadn't just woke up with him holding me up I would have said he was full of it!

This is not the only time I heard of the legendary sweet spot, a "sensei" once bragged about getting disqualified from some shiai for doing the same trick and then throwing o-soto so fast that the ref thinks his opponent got knocked out by the throw. (Dangerous and illegal but impressive) Of course the dirty punk wouldn't show how it works, not even give a hint.

I have interrogated many teachers over the years, most say it is BS, some say there is a nerve that runs along the artery in the left side of the neck, some say there is a "bulb?" in the triangle on the left side, but no one has ever been able to do the "trick". I have never been able to do it either and BELIEVE me I tried.

If anyone out there has anything useful to offer on the subject, I would be grateful for the assistance.

Duke Lewis

[MarkF]

Well, if he was gripping the lapel up high enough, than he isn't doing it with one finger, is he?

There is a onehanded choke which can be started (and completed) from a standing position, but if maintained, can be used to bring uke down. It is "thrust choke" or "tsukomi-jime" and is exactly what the name implies. Grabbing the right side of uke's dogi, and pulling down, thrust your right hand high up inside the lapel, gripping with the knuckles to the side of the neck, and cinch upward, or down with the left hand, and upward with the right. You can also jump, keeping the grip on the lapel with your right, knuckles inward, and sit down on uke's left side, maintaining the hand high on the dogi, and bringing your arm down as low as possible. Kyuzo mifune used this in much the same way you describe.

As to a nerve in the neck, the brachial nerve runs down from the neck into the shoulder, so may this be what is called "the sweet spot?" Usually, it doesn't exist if the person you ask can't do it.;)

Mark

[MarkF]

Here is a pic or two or Kyuzo Mifune doing this choke:

http://www.rain.org/~bnholmes/choke.jpg

Thanks go to Ben Holmes and Mifune K.

Mark

[Duke343]

It would be closer to a one-handed ryote jime, performed so that the effects are instantaneous. My working theory is that this is not really a "judo" technique but some form of acupressure done for self defence.

"Usually, it doesn't exist if the person you ask can't do it"

EXACTLY- If the famous sensei (insert name here) can't do it, it couldn't possibly exist. :up:

It's difficult to describe a physical act in words. Like trying to tell someone how chocolate tastes if they never tasted it. Thanks for trying.

Duke Lewis

[Kevin73]

I know what you are talking about, but I don't know the exact area either. I think it is a blood choke cutting the blood of on one side of the neck, I have seen it done with two fingers (index and middle) where it kind of "twisted" the skin and it was lights out. I haven't been able to do it either.

[Rob]

I have had this done to me (so unfortunately I wasn't in a position to tell exactly where pressure was applied)

The explanation I was given was that it was not so much the cutting of the blood that caused unconsciousness but the release.

As it was explained to me the rush of blood caused by stopping and releasing fools the brain into thinking you have extrememely high blood pressure so it cuts off all non essential systems - hence unconsiousness.

I'm not qualified to say if that's plausable but I do know that the Sensei put his hand on my neck and that's pretty much that last thing I remember.

Very odd feeling.

Hope this helps or at least adds something to the discussion.

[MarkF]

Hi, Guys,
It may be an aiki technique, but whatever it is, those who are really proficient in shime-waza can apply it as fast as the one described. Gene LeBell has always maintained that any choke can put a person out in three seconds or less, and has demonstrated this on many people over his life, including me, but he didn't knock me out. I tried to tap out but I couldn't move. He released it, and I was fine.

Actually, extremely high blood pressure would cause a stroke or heart attack, but rarely unconciousness without severe consequences. On the other hand, hypotension (low blood pressure) when brought on, by anything would have the tendency to cause syncope (fainting to unconciousness). The first symptom of severe hypertension would probably be bleeding from the nose, with no way to stop it normally.

This brings up another question, and possibly I should start a thread on it, but recently someone quoted an elder aikidoka who had seen a throw, originally done by Kyuzo Mifune called "Air throw." He said it was similar to most judo koshiwaza, except that the body hardly touched the other, and this was the name. I thought possibly it was a floating hip throw, or floating drop (No contact here), but does anyone know the name of this throw? This is for any aikidoka out there who are slumming in the judo forum.;)

Mark

BTW: Kevin73,

Welcome to E-budo!:) As a reminder, it is policy of E-budo.com to sign all posts with your full name. It can be configured in your signature box found in your profile, then you don't have to worry about it.:wave:

Mark

[AV]

This reminded me of an article I read some time back, where Tai Chi guru Erle Montague writes about a seminar he attended with pressure point guru George Dillman. He writes about a nerve nexus on the side of the neck called the carotid sinus that tells the brain about the blood pressure, and can cause unconciousness. The url is:
http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/george.htm

[Kevin73]

I have read through that article. The spot he is talking about in TCM is Stomach Point 9, and it does control that. I have always been taught it as a striking point though, there is another point right there where 3 nerves come out and eventually seperate into the 3 main nerves in the arm. It is also done by striking it (In police defensive tactics it's called a brachial stun).

Does anyone know if these points can be activated by pressure instead of striking?

[Duke343]

Thanks for your help. Finally, we are getting somewhere.

I noticed a trend among some teachers to not be very helpful in technical areas. Some just don't know, some do but will not help. I guess they feel that if they teach everything they know they can't lord over everyone anymore.

We may be able to figure this out in spite of them!

Good work!

Duke Lewis

[Brian Griffin]

Originally posted by MarkF

This brings up another question, and possibly I should start a thread on it, but recently someone quoted an elder aikidoka who had seen a throw, originally done by Kyuzo Mifune called "Air throw." He said it was similar to most judo koshiwaza, except that the body hardly touched the other, and this was the name. I thought possibly it was a floating hip throw, or floating drop (No contact here), but does anyone know the name of this throw? This is for any aikidoka out there who are slumming in the judo forum.;)


He was referring to one of Mifune-sensei's tokuiwaza.
It was often referred to as _kukinage_ ("air throw"), but the "official" name is _sumiotoshi_.
It's a good one to show people who think there's no "aiki" in Judo.
Er...maybe I should say...it _will_ be, once I'm able to do it properly :)

[MarkF]

I've always called sumiotoshi "corner throw" or "corner drop." I always practiced this throw in randori, but since we are speaking of Mifune, his tai otoshi (without the leg out and back) would have to fit here, too, as that was my first guess.

But the person describing this throw said it was nearly the same as "a judo hip throw" but with almost no contact with the hip. That was why I suggested it may be a floating throw of some sort.

Brian,
I have nearly always said there was aiki in judo, and it seems now many daito ryu and other aiki practitioners say that now as well. No one, though, will budge on DR's aiki as being special or having different "feel." It (aiki in judo) is usually dismissed because "judo is martial sport." Since the politicians these days agree, it is difficult to point out. Some waza are simply not being done unless aiki is involved.

BTW: Where do you find that sumiotoshi was referred to as an "air throw?" I don't doubt you, I would just like to know more about it. Was it from Canon of Judo or an aiki- aikido reference? I will also post what I have read when I get permission.

Mark

BTW: If anyone wishes to start a thread on aiki and judo, go right ahead. Usually, this is discussed in the aiki jj threads, but feel free.

[will szlemko]

Hi all,

While a duing some pre-med classes I learned about a phenomena that may explain the sweet spot. Basically there are pressure sensiteve receptors in the neck near the carotid arteries (baro receptors) When these receptors are pressed directly they read that as extremely high blood pressure and counter by closing the carotids to prevent stroke. This of course causes unconsciousness due to extreme low blood pressure. (since the pressure was not high to begin with the result is low pressure. Had the pressure been high the result would be normal pressure. One of may ways of tricking the body into beleiving something that isn't true.) That said this is possible to execute if extrememly hard, and it is by now means fool proof. For example we have one lady in our class whose arteries are so deep that carotid type chokes have absolutely no effect. The brachial plexus can also cause a type of paralysis and if you are extremely unluckey death. There was a case a couple of years ago of a teen in England who died when he and his girlfriend were kissing. She nipped him on the brachial plexus just right and caused a paralysis effect that also stopped his heart. New self defence technique - Ai Kamitsukimasu Waza (love bite technique)

will

[Brian Griffin]

Originally posted by MarkF
...the person describing this throw said it was nearly the same as "a judo hip throw" but with almost no contact with the hip.

Take a look at this animation of the photo sequence from Kudo's "Dynamic Judo" and you'll see how it could resemble a koshiwaza when viewed from the right angle:

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/sumiotoshi.htm


BTW: Where do you find that sumiotoshi was referred to as an "air throw?"


Kudo Kazuzo, "Dynamic Judo: Throwing Techniques" p.72
Kudo Kazuzo, "Judo in Action: Throwing Techniques" p.48
Mifune Kyuzo, "Canon of Judo" p.107

...There are probably other references

[Duke343]

Will,

Thanks for the info! Is there a diagram showing the structures involved? Is there a medical book thet you would recommend?

To rephrase, Find the baro receptors, near the cartoid artery, and press it. The result will be closing the artery causing unconsciousness.

Close to right?

What is a brachial plexus? Where is it located?

:up: The kiss of death, I can think of a couple people... :up:

Just Kidding

Duke Lewis

[AV]

Some links of relevance:
A discussion of choke-holds in Judo - with a rather poor image:
http://bjj.org/articles/971006-choke/
A much better image:
http://www.vesalius.com/graphics/cf_storyboards/neck_anat/cfsb_neck_anat1.asp#n2

[Brian Griffin]

Originally posted by will szlemko
...There was a case a couple of years ago of a teen in England who died when he and his girlfriend were kissing. She nipped him on the brachial plexus just right and caused a paralysis effect that also stopped his heart.


A "nip" on the brachial plexus certainly has potential to paralyze the upper limb, but stopping the heart sounds more like she "nipped" the vagus nerve.

[Ron Tisdale]

There was a really great dogi choke shown at the DR AJJ seminar in Baltimore. I won't even try to describe it, but one option was to literally hang your uke out to dry :)

One thing, one of my instructors advised us not to try to teach or use chokes in the dojo without knowing the resucitation (sp) techniques. His Dad is an old judoka, so we're trying to persuade him to come in and teach chokes and recovery techniques. I believe they're called koppo? Anyone got some suggestions?

Ron Tisdale

[MarkF]

Hi, Ron,
Suggestions for what? Chokes? Kappo jutsu? If chokes, I've got a ton of suggestions, but I only know a smattering of katsu (kappo) techniques. If you are going to take this to unconciousness, someone should know kappo, but in general, if the chokes applied are mainly to the carotids, then resuscitation is amost never needed. There are only a few, if that many, chokes with the emphasis on blocking breath or "air" chokes. Blood almost always commences once tori lets up, and this is usually more of a reflex which happens naturally, within a second, maybe two. If not, then whoever knows CPR or kappo should get involved, and the others (watching) should resist the response to "rubberneck" and give plenty of room, letting one or two proceed.

Caution: most chokes, even if the purpose is blocking the carotids or other blood vessels can quickly involve the trachea, especially with uke resisting. A fractured larynx of trachea can be deadly, but blood chokes rarely involve more than a second or two for uke to come around. However, the old judoka (what do you mean by old, anyway?:D ) is correct, ideally, but I think teaching when to give, or tap out, should be taught first.

Kappo, and CPR should be learned, but are more difficult to do than the techniques that got one there in the first place, IMO (think someone getting shot, and how long that takes, including learning how to pull the trigger, and then what it takes to put the pieces back together).

Suggestions: Avoid hadaka jime (naked strangle) as it is rarely used, and is the one choke which absolutely proves not all chokes cut the blood supply to the head.

Start simple: Nami-juji-jime. This just involves straddling the opponent, crossing the hands (right over left, for example, thumbs down, leaning in and down, with continuous pressure being applied, as your head continues in a forward motion. While this throw may appear at first to be an air choke, it isn't.

Katsu is a difficult call, if necessary. Most CPR techniques will resuscitute one not breathing, and cardio compression works well. If necessary, one Kappo method which is pretty general in restarting the involuntary breathing is called "so-katsu" and is really more than one technique. It is basically a take on "bad air out; good air in." Make sure there is room, that he is on his back with arms above his head, and place your hands (straddling his hips/upper legs) just below, or at the bottom of his rib cage, and compress, pushing your hands upwards with force necessary to push the air out, then let him breathe, and then again. What makes this a composite technique, is that it can be done with the patient face down, as well.

Kuatsu, a variation, but more succinctly, the "force of restoration of life." This principle is one you probably know, but in essence, the points on the body in which you can maim or kill, are the same for restoring it. It is difficult to desribe, but one to revive someone who has been strangled severly. There are charts which show exacty the positioning, but basically, place the person on his stomach, face literally down, arms outstrethed to the sides. With the heel of your hand, place it on the lower thoracic spine, press, bringing the hand up to the seventh vervical spine, and with your hand (palm or knife edge side) and your entire forearm on the back, strike hard at the the seventh, or the vertebra at the point where the bend in the back which begins the neck portion of the spine, then immediately bringing your hand back, and repeat as often as you can, or until the "patient" is responding. The blows should be sharp, but not damaging.

Best bet is to use a chart until you know it well, with the feel of the spine, and becomes as fluid as your best atemi.

It is difficult to describe (someone, with the name of Ed Burgess) gifted me with a chart and some descriptions of kuatsu waza. This, as the "old" judoka says needs to be learned and understood if you are going to take shimewaza seriously, and not only looking for the tap out. In the meantime, shimewaza can be practiced safely by teaching and making sure of when tori needs to let up, even if uke is trying to escape. Transition is another story all its own.

I hope I helped a little, but what I know is limited. There should be some information by way of books, or even video which will help even more. Just don't panic. Things have a way of working themselves out with a little common sense, something I know you have. Thanks for stopping by.

Anyone out there want to discuss katsu some more? Suggestions for Ron, guys?

regards,
Mark

Ohhhh, I just thought, after doing all this, that you wanted to know the name of the choke? Well, most, well all but one really, are dogi chokes. There is a guilliotine choke, but I cannot remember the name. So, give us a break, and describe it or name it Ron, the suspense is killing me, especially since it came from Kondo sensei, or at least, that particular seminar.:up:





[Edited by MarkF on 11-28-2000 at 05:12 PM]

[MarkF]

Here is a choke, done by Kyuzo Mifune, called katatejime:

http://www.rain.org/~bnholmes/choke.jpg

Courtesy of Ben Holmes.

[MarkF]

http://bjj.org/articles/971006-choke/choke-sm.gif

This is a drawing of the "Neckle" areas from the topic post in this thread.:D
This is the artcle, by Karl Koiwai, honcho of the USJI, late of the USJF (very late, is I do remember him in the sixites).

http://bjj.org/articles/971006-choke/

Koiwai is an MD so you may want to take notes.:)






[Edited by MarkF on 11-29-2000 at 03:58 AM]

[Duke343]

Mark,

The first time I was taught hadakajime I was told to avoid the trachea as it was dangerous. For a long time I thought that was the only way to do it. I understand that some people affect the trachea, but I always go for blood--so to speak. There is no mutual welfare in crushing a windpipe. :)

Duke Lewis

[MarkF]

Hi Duke,
I was taught that way as well, but there is nothing to say chokes to the trachea/larynx are not acceptable: This is from Kodokan Judo Ca.1958:

Shime-waza: In stranglation techniques or choke locks, you use your hands, arms, or legs on the opponent's collar or lapels to apply pressure to his neck or throat.

Hadaka jime is rarely used, but when practicing this choke it certainly would be "disrespectful" to repeatedly apply this choke at the airway, but should be applied, as well as can be expected, to the neck, and therefore to the carotid. When it is used in shiai or even randori, this choke almost always crosses in front when pressure is applied. A while back (check the thread titled, I think "shime waza: purpose and causation) there was some discussion on this discrepencies of whether to apply "air" chokes, and on more than this BB.

Anyway, Karl Koiwai-sensei had been around for a while, starting with the USJF (US Black Belt Federation), and since he is an MD, I think the link to that page is a pretty good description.

But I will not argue your beliefs, as I tend to go that way. I am only putting it on the table for discussion.:)

Here are some links to check out, all hadaka jime, but in different times by different people. The one of Mifune is the most interesting.

Kodokan Judo
http://www.rain.org/~bnholmes/hadakajime.jpg

Canon of Judo
http://www.rain.org/~bnholmes/hadakajime2.jpg

Dynamic Judo
http://www.rain.org/~bnholmes/hadakajime3.jpg

Formal Techniques
http://www.rain.org/~bnholmes/hadakajime4.jpg

Kawaishi & Welch
http://www.rain.org/~bnholmes/hadakajime5.jpg

Closeup of above
http://www.rain.org/~bnholmes/hadakajime6.jpg

Again, these are from a previous thread, and are with the courtesy of Ben Holmes.

Mark

[Ron Tisdale]

Thank you very much Mark. I will be printing this thread out to show my instructor, we will have a lot to discuss. I hope I didn't offend with the "old" remark. I used it because the gentleman in question is probably in his 70's, and his judo training would probably be considered fairly classical (he talks about foot sweeps being able to break ankles, from training by kicking tires accross a field).

As to the choke that Kondo showed, I'm not sure its from the Ikkajo series, so I don't have a name for it. I'll check my book tonight to see if I can find a name.

Basically uke punches chudan, shite enters and controls on the pressure point for ippondori, or the one on the upper fore-arm with the left hand. Right hand grabs dogi at uke's left collar. Left hand moves palm up to grab even tighter by the right hand (for-arm accross uke's shoulder). Right hand grabs uke's dogi over the left shoulder from behind (shite's arms are now crossed, and shite is behind uke). kick uke's leg out behind the kneecap (usually right leg). Uke goes down, effectively hanging himself. Because each grip effectively tightens the choke, by the time its complete the smallest increase in preasure from the fingers of the right hand cause the choke to tighten increadibly. If you can get to the finishing position, uke is **really** helpless. If you actually lift uke from the floor by the dogi, its lights out.

I don't think my description does the technique any justice at all, but its the best I can do. Even though it doesn't sound too effective when I describe it (too many hand changes, hard to keep uke off balance while the changes take place), it sure was effective when done by Kondo Sensei. He took uke's ballance immediately, and kept it. And did it smooth, sooooo smooth. I guess that's why he's Menkyo Kaidan, and I'm chopped liver.

Ron (been dangled by my dogi) Tisdale

[MarkF]

Hi, Ron,
The "what do you mean old" comment was in jest. Sometimes old just means stubborn, as in "old judoka."

From your description, it sounds like a variant of kata ha jime. If you cinch that from behind standing, and kick the leg out, your fall will be stopped by the grip. If the arm comes under the armpit, it locks that up as well. But I will bet even if it is that strangle hold, it is called something a little different. If you thrust the hand up while avoiding the punch, to the opposite side, and step around, it could also be tsukomi jime (thrust choke).

You're right, though, it is difficult to describe the intent and exactly which is the result.

Thanks for saving the thread. I'm interested in what the old judoka has to say.

Mark

[Ron Tisdale]

Thanks to Chris Covington at the Aikido Journal web site...

"and a choke from a series called tai-judo. defense from judo players (I got this from Mr. Steel, and if I am wrong it is my error and not his). "

This is the choke I was refering to. A little closer to a name....

Ron (name that choke) Tisdale

[davoravo]

Sorry to come in so late when the thread has moved on so nicely. With regards to the "sweet spot" it is almost certainly the carotid sinus. Doctors massage this spot when a patient's heart is beating too fast as it causes the heart to reflexly slow down and even pause while the massage is being applied. The technique is a clockwise gentle rub, always applied when the patient is lying down and never to both sides at once.
Extrapolating from your description: after grasping uke's collar dig in to the carotid sinus with side of the knuckle or joint of the index finger and rotate. Stop as soon as uke goes limp and be prepared to do CPR.

[Jeff Cook]

I have been told that messing with the carotid sinus in this manner can cause ventricular fibrillation, pre-ventricular contractions (PVC's) and cardiac arrest. Also, it must be noted that effectively attacking the carotid sinus with anything other than a striking technique on an unwilling subject is extremely difficult and problematic at best. Most folks will not stand idly by while having their necks vigorously massaged or while having knuckles dug into it. And movement of the head, in conjunction with defensive muscular contractions around the carotid sinus, make the area even more difficult to manually stimulate in any manner other than a vigorous and well-timed strike. Strangulations are an entirely different matter altogether.

Play carefully with this one, folks!

BTW, law enforcement has been using a famous technique for years called the "Curly Shuffle." It is a light slap to the same area of the neck, with almost the same results as described by the original poster.

Mark, does ukigoshi or one of the aiki-style kokyunage ("breath throws") fit what you are looking for regarding the "air throw?"

Also, concerning the name for the guillotine: try "mae hadaka jime" - front naked strangle. For the rear naked, "ushiro hadaka jime." Don't know if these terms are accepted by judo folks in general, but the Japanese usage is fairly close, and when I ran the terms by Phil Porter he found them acceptable.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Edited by Jeff Cook on 12-06-2000 at 03:28 PM]

[Duke343]

David,

That sounds like it! Where can I study more about what you are talking about?

Where EXACTLY are the baro receptors located? I've been doing my homework but I can't find a diagram anywhere!

Thanks,

Duke Lewis

[MarkF]

Jeff,
You tell me. The following is where it came up, and is from an interview/article to be published on http://ejmas.com, of Takashi Nonaka, an early student of Tohei sensei (It may all ready be published, but I think it was for the first of next month): Edited by Joseph Svinth.


While meditating, Tohei Sensei had also realized the importance of the hara, or center, and to help English-speaking people better understand the idea, he had created the phrase "the one-point". If your mind is at the center, Tohei Sensei believed, then you were strong; if you let it wander, then you grew weaker. This is an interesting concept, too, because you can't learn it by talking or reading about it, you have to feel it. Toward developing the one-point, a throw Tohei Sensei worked on a lot was one called the wind-throw. It looked like a judo hip throw, but it was not; instead it was the one perfected by judo's Kyuzo Mifune Sensei. To do it, you had to read the opponent's mind, then lead it where you wanted it, as that way he almost threw himself. All Tohei (or Mifune) had to do was be in balance, and of course that was no problem for them. It was just the neatest thing, as you hardly even felt him touch you, one minute you were up, the next you were flying through the air, getting ready to practice your breakfalling.
*************

I was asked for a term for this wind throw, and I wondered, too, if it may not have been a floating drop, or hip throw, since it is described as a "judo hip throw." Sumi-otoshi was what Brian Griffin thought it may be, but that is not anything like a judo hip through, although this throw is done with uke's intent all ready known, so kukiunage may be it. I just didn't have enough information to make a guess on it. You may know better than I do, since we are speaking of Tohei and Mifune, but I would agree with the sumiotoshi as the kukiu-nage.

As to hadaka jime, yes, those terms can certainly apply, but the are only slight variation on a theme, and are done the same way, but positioned differently. It rarely came up in my training as that choke was almost never practiced in randori because of the point of attack. In controlled kata setting, yes.

A blow to the center of the chest, when done when the heart is on an upswing (on a ECG read-out, it would be at the time the beat is at the top of a spike), can be deadly, or not. Throwing PVCs can happen, but this can happen during any type of exertion. Many football (well, not that many) have died when speared at this exact moment. CPR rarely brings one around, even if using eletroshock (paddles). Not to be toyed with, and certainly to be studied so as never to practice it.

Mark

[Jeff Cook]

Mark,

I wish I did know, but I am just throwing out some guesses to see what you and the others think. Thank you for stimulating my mind!:)

I have been thrown with ukigoshi before, and it is rather strange. From what I remember of the sensation, my kuzushi was broken very far forward and slightly up onto my toes, and as tori moved in for the throw, it looked like ogoshi, but there was practically no contact between our bodies - it felt like I "brushed" up, over, and around his hip. Definitely a feeling of being floated. It was rather pleasant, actually (until I hit the mat, that is!)

I'm not so sure that it is sumiotoshi. From what I remember of sumi, you are dropped from where you stand, without much feeling of being raised. From the article you quoted, "...one minute you were up, the next you were flying through the air...". I may be misinterpreting the "up" part of this statement, but with ukigoshi you feel like you are being lifted up before flying through the air, whereas with sumi you are dropped directly from a standing position with no feel of being "up-ed."

Don't really know what to make of it. Great discussion! Maybe we should put this in a new thread?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[davoravo]

Dear Duke

You can find this information in any anatomy text (Chapter Anterior triangle of the neck). I am not going to put it up here as I agree with the moderator, you should not do this technique. If you feel you really have to, absolutely, definitely do not do it on anyone over 50.

PS I thought maybe the middle knuckle of the thumb would dig in better

[Duke343]

David,

Sorry, Judo has choking techniques in the curriculum- it always has. I DO fell the need to practice them. I'm trying to learn more about them. I need to find the exact location of the baro receptors.
Every doctor I have ever been to has a different reason for me to quit Judo. (getting choked unconcious, bad knees, seperated collar bone, bad ankles, repetitive motions, on and on and on...) I'll tell you what I tell them----

It's not for the faint of heart.

There is a bare minimum that is required. You don't have to win the world championships, but you have to do all of the techniques. If someone is too ill to have the chokes done to them, they should not be in the dojo. This is the bare minimum. Sounds a little cold blooded, but thats how it has to be. It's a dangerous art for bold people, no wussies! Everyone signs a paper when they start stating they understand they may be hurt or killed. At that point you decide life or death. Any over-50 person at my dojo would be PO'ed If they thought I was "taking it easy on them".

That being said, we try not to hurt anyone.

;) Evil Over-50 Judoka don't have a problem with putting me to sleep, is it too much to ask that I get to return the favor? ;)

Duke Lewis

[MarkF]

No one said you couldn't learn the techniques, but some just are not done, are done in kata only, or some are just too dangerous to use, but not to know. There was some discussion not too long ago concerning "dakiage" and that isn't a throw I would want to do in randori, or at anytime.

Some chokes can be dangerous. Learn the waza, then save it for the next time you do the entire katami no kata. That's what I save dakiage for, the nage no kata.

BTW: I never signed a paper like that. Then again, I was only twelve. When you are younger, you feel like the supreme being. I'd be careful of how you treat your over-fifty judoka. There are some in their seventies and eighties I'd be worried about.:)

Jeff,
Sure, go ahead and start the thread. I didn't think of sumiotoshi either, but it does make sense, that is, if there really are throws as described. Mifune was an amazing man, so maybe he did read his ukes' minds. I tossed this one out originally because I was asked, but didn't have a clue. Yes, uke goshi is a lot different than o goshi. If you are thrown correctly, you should end up on the right side, or right front of tori (assuming that side). I actually thought o goshi would be closer to "almost no body contact" as when done correctly with the right timing, there should be very little body contact. The difference is in the lift. No lift in in floating hip, or at least, there shouldn't be.

But the question was only posed as "what would be the Japanese term for air throw" in the context of what was described. I actually "floated" everything I could think of that was described as floating, or air, or wind, Sumiotoshi is one for the masters. It is difficult to think of nage with simply the hands. Take a look at the tai otoshi of old. Kind of the same thing with that.

If we get anymore on kukyunage, I will start a thread for it. Thanks, Jeff.

Mark

[Duke343]

Thanks to everyone,

Here is the results of my research based on your advice.

The thing to look for is the carotid sinus. Located in the carotid triangle on the neck, it has very little muscle protecting it. The carotid sinus is a widening of the carotid artery at the "fork" of the internal and external branches. There are pressure sensitive cells in the walls of the carotid sinus called baro-receptors. These cells usually sense the blood pressure and trigger adjustments to keep it steady. When artifically stimulated, the baro-receptors are tricked and the result can be unconsciousness.

That's why-- the how is trickier.

The hard part is finding the cartoid sinus. It is a specific spot, not an area, complicated by the fact that it can shift around under the skin and you have to find it entirely by feel, there are almost no visual clues. I still can't do it, but I know what I'm looking for. It doesn't take much pressure but you have to have the placement perfect.

Some Karate and Taiji guys mess around with the carotid sinus, they call it stomach #9. They strike the neck to get the KO. Evidently some use it as a "parlor trick" knocking out people right and left, others warn that it is dangerous and not to be taken lightly.

Getting knocked out is NEVER good for you, there is always risk involved. This choke is no exception. Is it "more" dangerous than some other chokes or throws? I don't think so, but that is just my opinion. ( I saw someone get knocked out and their head split open by an o-soto gari in a bar parking lot, they left in an ambulance. I would argue that this is more dangerous than being put to sleep.)

Kudos to all of the smart people who contributed to the discussion. You people are great.

Mutual welfare--- I dig it!

A good debate would be the ethical concerns regarding the use of dangerous techniques. What is OK? Is trying to prevent injury more or less important than the art that is being practiced? Should the line be drawn at the intentional injury of someone? If not, then where?

Duke Lewis

[MarkF]

One learns so one doesn't need to go there, so of course prevention, mutual welfare, it is all related, but the need to force a loss of conciousness more than needs to be done the one time, is plainly, asking for trouble. IMO, you prevent it to yourself, your opponent/attacker, and to those with whom you train. There is nothing remotely romantic about pushing the envelope.

That said, Duke, why don't you start the discussion on your own thread? I would, but threads started my moderators get less response, usually. Please, go ahead and make my day.:D

Mark

BTW: The "fork" you speak of is called bifurcation, FWIW.

[Duke343]

Mark,

I know, that one sent me to the dictionary.
It's a $50 dollar word for fork!

My predilection for the term "fork" is solely rooted in my quest for succinctness. (Effete accent and all):laugh:

Duke Lewis

[davoravo]

Dear Duke
Forgive my earlier sanctimoniousness; I was starting to feel responsible for the information I was putting out. The reasons that this technique is more dangerous than other chokes is that:
(1) in some sensitive people it stops the heart and it may not restart (more of a theoretical risk) which is quite different to other chokes where you merely interrupt blood supply to the brain and then easily resupply it.
and (2) you can dislodge a clot from an atherosclerotic plaque on the wall of the carotid artery and cause a stroke (hence don't do it to anyone over 50).
The sinus is hard to find, but try this: place your thumb on the adam's apple and then poke your index finger straight onto the carotid pulse (in the gutter between the muscle and the larynx) one finger breadth above your thumb. Use a circular motion.