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BrianV
10th June 2000, 06:17
Budokai,
I whole-heartedly agree with you. I think that most of the people on this list probably do also.

Why do people try to pass themselves off as Koryu Masters and Seven or Seventeenth generation practitioners in the first place? The answer is a simple one, undeserved respect, the "oh gee" factor from the unknowing, and probably the most insidious, MONEY.

They are raping an old tradition to legitimize themselves.

BTW, I am not a Koryu practitioner, but would love the opportunity to study with one.
You have stated your ex-military background, how many Vietnam Veterans have you met who would have had to be about the only fighting 12 year old in the Special Forces, Recon or Tunnel-Rats? I have met too many.

Why do they do it? Same reasons as above.
We have a local instructor who is passing himself off as the heir of a Koryu dealing almost entirely with KenJutsu.

His story (read saga, epic, tale, delusions, etc...) is that he went to Japan and studied for about 6 months in a Koryu, was so good that he was made the new inheritor of the System. He has even taken on a Japanese name in the process.

This is someone who claimed a 6th Dan in Jujutsu before the age of 35, having been training for about 14 yrs, do the math.

The fact that this person is claiming this rank does not bother me much, it's his problem to deal with his inadequacies or delusions.

What P****** me off is the number of people, with MA experience and without, who seem to swallow this garbage and believe it. Are we that desperate to prove our lineage??

Whatever happened to just being happy with what you know, your abilities of Body Mind and Spirit, and the quest of acquiring more??

Makes me sick sometimes, but "the show must go on".

Just my 2 cents......

BrianV

[This message has been edited by BrianV (edited 06-10-2000).]

10th June 2000, 16:59
Okay, I want to add my opinion about the legitimacy argument even though I'm sure this horse has been beaten enough.

Now I think Sly Stallone is a decent actor, considering his limitations. I really liked "First Blood" and the subsequent Rambo movies. In these, he acted more like a former military special forces member than any of the real life ones I've known. He was proficient at any number of weapons, from M-60 machine guns to compound bows with exploding arrows. (I must have missed that day on the range...) He could fly helicopters in aerial combat. In these movies, he also saw more action than anyone I met during my tours in Vietnam.

To his credit, Mr. Stallone never attempted to portray himself as an actual special forces veteran outside the movies. During the Vietnam conflict, Mr. Stallone actually left the country to avoid the draft. (By the way, I am not a special forces veteran, either. I was a Navy corpsman who did time with Marine Recon units, though.)

Claiming your koryu is legitimate because the techniques are effective is just as distasteful as if Mr. Stallone dressed up in a military uniform and paraded down Main Street on Memorial Day. Creating your own martial arts credentials or claiming a sokeship is no better than buying military decorations and putting them on your own chest.

Now I have been a critic of some of the more bizarre characters in the koryu versus budo debate. However, the hair on the back of my neck just stands up when I hear about known associates of convicted killers and child molesters who assume academic titles after purchasing degrees from diploma mills or instructors who create ficticious martial arts histories just to portray themselves as koryu experts. Claiming their techniques are as effective justs doesn't seem to justify this behavior.

Someone who spent their entire military career as supply clerk in a rear area depot has more right to the veteran label than anyone who may demonstrate effective soldiering techniques but never served their country. I feel the same way about those who would portray their practice as some ancient koryu tradition just because their skills are effective. Why not be honest about it? There are many instructors who are upfront about their lack of koryu authenticity but are still successful at teaching Japanese bujutsu.

By the way, I do not teach any koryu or even play one on T.V. I am interested in Japanese koryu and have sought out true descendants of various ryu for information and instruction. Anyway, this is just my opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the management of this forum.

Let the flame wars begin...

Sincerely,

Don Cunningham

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10th June 2000, 20:16
Thank you for your comments, Brian. However, I am not so sure that it is money that motivates these individuals. It seems to be an obsessive need to be recognized as superior. I am no psychologist, but I think it may be a result of serious self-esteem issues.

No matter what the motivation is, what they are doing is just plain wrong. Simple as that, it's wrong.

Those such as Mr. 1, Mr. 2, Mr. 3, and Mr. 4, should hang their heads in shame. Instead, they whine about the "legitimacy police" as if it is somehow in bad taste to point out their fraudulent practices. I guess we're supposed to feel sorry for them.

(Yes, I've met many alleged Vietnam veterans who are many years younger than myself. At 47 years old, I think I was one of the last years of the draft and certainly the last to serve in country in 1972.)

Sincerely,

Don Cunningham

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[This message has been edited by John Lindsey (edited 06-10-2000).]

John Lindsey
11th June 2000, 01:24
Don,

You started off good, but you just HAD to name names, and blow the whole thing. I for one am getting VERY tired of doing the name game on e-Budo.

Joseph Svinth
11th June 2000, 03:03
Now I'm the first to admit that Don loves beating dead horses. And beating dead horses is, in my opinion, better than beating live wives. (Though from personal observation I must admit that many high-ranked MA people would disagree with that statement.) Nevertheless, if Don is not allowed to name names, then how on earth is anyone to ever develop the list of potentially dubious schools and associations that Popie wishes existed somewhere on the Internet?

Sure, we can do what Robert W. Smith did in "Martial Musings" and refer to the phony war heroes as "Our Shaw Desmond" and "Mr. X". And the advantage is that if RWS had named names, then only one person would have been identified whereas by leaving the name blank so far dozens have thought they were meant. But that still makes it hard for those who are not the Illuminati, or who won't write RWS for confirmation.

So, where *does* one turn for good answers? The Yellow Pages and Internet advertise good schools as well as bad. "Journal of Asian Martial Arts" has published articles by and about flakes while "Black Belt" has published articles by and about enormously legitimate practitioners. And even my recommendations have been wrong a time or two. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/redface.gif

The best I can suggest is posting lists of availble online articles to the Internet. You find an article about somebody and it gets posted without comment. Of course this requires lots of work and minimal editorializing, as you want to be providing information and avoiding lawsuits. Anybody interested in editing such a thing? (Bandwidth is easy, finding editors willing to work is not.)


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Joe
http://ejmas.com

11th June 2000, 06:16
Dear PJ:

Wow! I guess I do have one supporter out there after all. You got me on one thing, though. How did you ever guess that I am posting on these forums just for the sake of fame and community posturing. I know it's hard to understand, but you wouldn't believe how many girls I get or how many times someone asks for my autograph just because I've exposed these frauds on E-Budo.

Abrasive, brash, blunt? Okay, that's fair enough, I guess. But cocky? Isn't that hitting a bit below the belt? http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

While I may have stepped on a few toes and I suppose it is possible I may have offended a few others, http://216.10.1.92/ubb/redface.gif I am also basically a nobody, too. A few years ago, I became aware of an aikido instructor who had raped a very young girl whose parents had entrusted to his care for a weekend clinic. Awful? Yes, but bad things happen to good people all the time. What really made me mad was how many other martial arts personalities flocked to his support because "he was a great martial arts instructor." They seemed to think that his being a pedophile was not relevant because he was so good at teaching technique. That's why I do this now. If that is "community posturing," then I guess I'm guilty.

Sincerely,

Don "Sorry I named names" Cunningham

P.S.

I would like to see something like http://www.quackwatch.com/ is to medical frauds, but for the martial arts community. If anyone is interested in setting something like this up, then count me in, too.

[This message has been edited by budokai (edited 06-11-2000).]

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MarkF
11th June 2000, 11:03
I don't think MAists are tolerant per se, but just careful, especially on the net. There are cases going to court a lot these days, so we may get more than we bargained for (said the devil). If I had been personally harmed, and had no other redress than to name names, I might be at the front of the line. It may seem that Don is "out of line," but I also think what Joe Svinth said in regard to the purpose of naming names is a proper balance. Don knows he has my support in that his heart is in the right place. But if we really did list all who we thought to be questionable, it would have to be a BB of its own. The "koryu cops" have a hard enough time in doing what they do without being referred to as "dead horse beaters (or wife beaters, etc.)." But what do you say about someone who is accused of this very thing who does come over and defends one's self? This has happened albeit not often enough, but it does happen. Some have actually had the accusers apologizing in the end. How do you take back what you said and the possible damage you have caused? There is a recently retired special ed (for the retarded) teacher here who was accused of molesting those in his charge, when it really came down to nothing more than this man having a student share a chair (no, not the way some of you are thinking). He was accused, suspended, fired, charged, tried, and found innocent of almost all charges, and the remaining charges were thrown out. This man is still being vilified sufficiently so that he no longer can work here and is now making plans on leaving his hometown, not to resume teaching, but so that he doesn't have to see the accusatory looks in his former friends' faces. Those who accused have recanted but no one will ever trust this man to be in a position to have charge over anyone elses children.

Then there is the case of radio personality Art Bell who has been forced into retirement because his son, another special student, was actually molested, and then some jerk on an extreme right wing radio station with known ties to "white separatist" groups which, without the aid of a cheap delay switch, made a statement that Art had molested his own son. Following that, a station in Canada opened one of its talk format shows with the statement "Hi. I'm Art Bell and I molest children." The latter came on the heels of a confession and conviction of the person who really did this. He was hounded all the way up to his anounced retirement from radio on April 26,2000. I think we should be careful in what we say and do "lest we be judged."

I am not saying that what Don does (I have also been there. I am way short of "innocent" in exposing, or supporting the exposure of these so-called martial artists), and what PJ has just begun would be helpful, but we must, at the very least, be sure of our "facts" before we open the box.

With that said, something of a quackwatch website would be nice, if only, like Joe has said, to list what we think to be less than honest websites, and/or martial artists. I agree with Don that some of these guys who profess to be the last in a "long line of bujutsu practioners" and great and grand Osensei poohbahs need to be tested. However, I also think that an open door of communication be established so that we really don't harm those who may be sincere, but have been duped themselves. A list of the webpage with little or nothing said would be just dandy. Most of these people leave themselves wide open anyway and are not nearly so clever as the Sacharnoskis and Durbins (oops!) of our small, but important worlds. In the past, I have suggested some kind of basic test or "practice" which the wannabes should have to undergo, if nothing else, to protect children from predators and adults from, well, the same thing, but time after time even Don has said he does not think this is necessarily a good thing as there are all ready enough laws on the books. They just need to be inforced (I don't agree, but hey, that's me). This is a difficult thing to ponder, let alone finding people who really do want to wear the Dudley Doright badge. I am as angry as anybody about these MAa...business men who are praying on the all-too-many weak followers of just about anyone who can convince them that they indeed, are the leaders they have searched high and low for, or the parents who blindly hand over their children to MA "teachers" who wouldn't know the difference from koryu and camaraderie. This is indeed a problem which many have addressed, but I suppose most will "see the light" and move on to someone who isn't just a bag of wind. At least, that is my hope.

As goes a song by an "underground" rock band from the sixties, The United States of America: "How much fun it's been." I do seen the need to name some names, but only those in which there is some type of legal jousting going on over diploma mills, belt mills (these, unfortunatly, will always be with us), and the like. Let's paint the pictures as they are, warts and all. But lets make sure they are not just wearing make up first.


Respectfully,


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Mark F. Feigenbaum

Kolschey
11th June 2000, 14:10
Here's a thought. The analogy has been made that these alleged frauds are not unlike criminals and con men of other professions. As the listing of specific individuals seems bound to provoke nuclear escalation that results in some pretty serious collateral damage, perhaps there is another approach. What about giving people the tools to make informed decisions themselves? Douglas Rushkoff just wrote a book titled " Coercion" which is concerned with revealing the tactics that marketers use against their intended audience. Why not post articles that profile the warning signs and early indicators of unethical MA teachers? Use case histories without specific references in order to better elaborate on the methods of such individuals. The FBI creates criminal profiles as a means of determining archetypes of illegal behavior that will be good templates for investigative purposes. Having seen some rather dubious MA teachers and practicioners over the years, I could probably draw some sharp sketches myself that more than a few people would recognise. " Oh yeah, it's Mr. Used To Teach Kung-fu To Spec-ops Types, right next to Breaks Students Elbows To Prove Technique, and Screams At Other Instructors At Tournaments".
Just a thought.

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Krzysztof M. Mathews
" For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me"
-Rudyard Kipling

Matthew W. Luedke
11th June 2000, 16:30
Dear All,
I found the idea of a martial quackwatch.com to be interesting. However, I don't think it is possible at this time to construct a functional and "legitimate" database regarding martial arts fraud, or at least not in the same way as it is possible to do so for the medical field.
Thanks in large part to the AMA's crusade (or one might say inquisition) during the first part of this centry to place almost anything medical under the sole control of physicians, a series of medical standards was set up. Allopathic medical conventions became the de facto and de jure norm of treatment, and physicians and lawmakers could begin to police the medical enterprise. Medical science, at the same time, was tied into the great game of scientific scholarship, so discoveries in this field had to be routed through peer review systems. As time went on, this system became more entrenched and intricate(for better and for worse). And, as a result, now adays, a multiplicity of chriteria surround legal, ethical, and competency issues that regulate medical care and innovation.
To my knowledge, such an intricate system of legal, peer, or even lay review does not exist for the martial arts. Granted, there is martial scholarship: people like Joseph Svinth, Dave Lowry, the Skosses, and others produce well reasoned, well researched material. But, there is no series of standards, de facto or de jure, that can be applied across all, or even a majority of the martial arts (and by this, I mean martial arts from all nations and continents). And, while there are organizations in many individual gendai arts that set up standards of knowledge, teaching, and practice, there is no universal, broad-scale "board certification" for martial arts practitioners, there are few "reputable" journals that are published regularly, there are a very limited number of accredited institutes of research and education regarding the martial arts--simply put, the martial arts community, compared to the medical community, is quite diffuse and impossible to regulate in the same manner. Even quackwatch.com, which isn't part of the rigid higherarchy of medical regulation depends on the quasai-legal notion of "the minimum standard of care," which only exists because of a well defined system of medical education, certification, and practice. There is no "minimum standard of martial ability" that can be equated with the minimum standard of care.
So, while Mr. Cunningham and Mr. Popie have legitimate concerns and, frankly, good ideas about the need for controling fraud in the martial arts, the system, or lack of a unified system of reviews and standards, leave them impotent in correcting these issues.
Don't get me wrong, it gets really tiring to see the same problem re-hashed over and over again, and Mr. Cunningham's tirades, at times, take on the tone of fingernailss on a chalkboard. But, frankly, short of calling the local Attorney General (which he apparently did), he's afforded little other means of trying to root out what he sees as fraud than complaining on this board.
In the end, what I'm trying to say is this: a martial quackwatch.com won't work, at least not now. Frankly, I doubt anything short of starting a series of reputable peer-review martial arts journals (and finding competent people to publish in them regularly), estabishing an organization that will determine standards of martial arts education and licenture, petition Congress for laws that limit martial education to such licenced practitioners, and, essentially, sublimate all martial arts teaching into a single, coherent system will effectively create a system where fraud is easier to ferret out. Untill then, I think the best we'll be left with is people like Mr. Cunningham and Mr. Cunningham posting on boards like this.
Sorry for the long post :-)

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Matt L.
"Common sense is the most widely shared commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it."-René Descartes

11th June 2000, 17:57
Mr. Mathews:

I like your suggestion about the "how to spot MA frauds" article. I published something like this in the last issue of "Furyu: The Budo Journal." A reasonable copy can be found on the web at:
http://www.concentric.net/~Budokai/articles/masters.htm

I wrote this long before ever posting anything on a forum. Since I'm not supposed to name names, I'll refer to him by a fictitious name, let's just say "Dr. Rod" for our purposes. Anyway, I started receiving e-mail messages, threatening lawsuits and other legal mumbo-jumbo if I didn't immediately remove the article. When I informed Dr. Rod that I hadn't broken any laws and had no intention of removing the article, he then threatened me physically.

After posting this fact on the forum, I have been called all kinds of names, my personal courage has been questioned, and subjected to all kinds of insults. In addition to the forum postings, though, I also informed the proper authorities about Dr. Rod and his questionable business practices. On the positive side, I have received numerous e-mails thanking me, some like yourself, Mark, and PJ have even posted their opinions backing my efforts (and I'm sure incurring the wrath of Dr. Rod and his supporters). The authorities are currently investigating Dr. Rod. Finally, I have it on good authority that these posts have really made Dr. Rod furious, and I hope, a bit uncomfortable.

If I have helped just one person avoid getting involved with Dr. Rod and his organization, then it's been worth it. I think I've been even more successful than that based on what other information I've heard.

Sincerely,

Don "I'm not naming any names" Cunningham

12th June 2000, 16:48
John Lindsey,

I respect you immensely but I gotta step up to the plate on this in disagreement. I'm in support of Don Cunningham here. If you don't name names how does the unsuspecting public know who's being scrutinized and who's not. I also have a problem with people getting tired of the debate. Hey, dont read the posts if you are tired of the topic. Someone new to e-budo asked a question about the Juko Kai and got answers. Then some else complained about it being an already old and tired subject. Well, not to the guy who asked the question. Again, if its old and tired to someone they can choose not to read the thread. Ta Da...... Isn't technology amazing.

BTW. Anyone want to ask me ANY questions concerning my background or historical information on the styles I study, I will answer and assist them in any way possible.
There are questionable historical details about lineage or instructors in our ryu and I will point these out as well. Warts and all is my motto for this subject matter. I'm a call it as I see it kinda guy and that goes for looking in the mirror as well. Too bad Sachrnoski never looks in his mirror, I guess it's too scary....... there, I named a name. John, you censor it if you feel it is really best for e-budo but don't expect me to. Like I said, I'm a call it as I see it kinda guy. No wonder Takamura and I got along so well and rankled feathers occasionally .

Toby Threadgill/ Chief Instructor, U.S.
Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu Jujutsu
Is Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu a koryu?

Gil Gillespie
12th June 2000, 17:58
This thing is as old as budo,or bujutsu or koryu. Musashi's decimation of the entire Yoshioka sword school in Kyoto proved only that a legitimate established academy was gone. It didn't prove he was "better" than their training system.

The proliferation of less than worthy dojos of questionable credentials will probably always confront and annoy legitimate budoka. At our Orlando FL dojo we regard them as "feeder schools," as valid budoka will soon seek to transcend the limited instruction they receive there and move on. And they have done so. And they have found us.

Take on the charlatans by being real. Never get into a urinating contest (I cleaned that up) with a skunk: no matter who wins, skunk wins.

Gil

John Lindsey
12th June 2000, 19:14
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Toby Threadgill:
John Lindsey,

I respect you immensely but I gotta step up to the plate on this in disagreement. I'm in support of Don Cunningham here. If you don't name names how does the unsuspecting public know who's being scrutinized and who's not. I also have a problem with people getting tired of the debate. Hey, dont read the posts if you are tired of the topic. Someone new to e-budo asked a question about the Juko Kai and got answers.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hi Toby,

I edited Don's message in this one case because I felt that he didn't really have to name the names to make his point in his message. He could have kept it out and made his message valid as it stands. I know Don and consider him a friend and respect him. He does get a bit carried away at times, but that is him.

As always, if someone asks about these people, then sure, anyone is free to respond, but I just ask that we keep it civil unlike in the past where name calling and insults were thrown around like shuriken.

I always say that E-budo, just like budo, begins and ends with reiho. Personally, I think that the manner that we present our arguments has a lot to do as to how the public sees them. All it takes is a little bit of tact http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif.

Thus, I am not saying that we cannot discuss these "people" and their claims but rather do it in a manner that does not get too personal, but rather stick to the facts.

I hope this all makes sense http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

John

Tetsutaka
12th June 2000, 20:37
Hey John,

How about starting "www dot E-shinkokai dot com" ???

http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

12th June 2000, 20:41
Thanks for the support, Toby, but I want to make it clear that I took no offense at John's editing of my previous post. My subsequent comments were supposed to be humorous, tongue-in-cheek, etc. I disagree that the names were unimportant to the point, but I don't argue with John's call on this. As I learned in judo tournaments, you may disagree with the referee's call, but you have to respect it just the same.

Sincerely,

Don "just trying to make my point" Cunningham

Jay Bell
12th June 2000, 21:33
I too have been on the receiving end of teachers that boasted themselves to be something they weren't. My first Shodan was awarded in Kenpo (keeping affiliation off of this for reasons). Unfortunately, some time later my instructor, I came to find out, was a brown belt that learned through video and had no other previous training. When the situation was brought to the higher ups, I was banned from this organization.

In my hometown, I did security for an agency that also taught Tang Soo Do. The instructor for this dojang claimed high ranking in Tang Soo Do. However, magically, in the matter of two years, he went from a 7th degree in Tang Soo Do, to teaching and claiming a Yondan in Aikido. Pretty impressed I was.

I just got done reading the article from Don, and I think that it's a point in the right direction. I do not agree with a quackwatch database type thing, as many have explained reasoning before me. If I legitamately have ranking or certificates in a perticular school, and it's not very easily tracable, I can be labeled a fraud. As others have stated, there's a serious moral issue that is irreversable in that situation.

Jay


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Banpen Fugyo

Jeff Bristol
12th June 2000, 23:04
I have a feeling I am jumping in without knowing how deep the water is here. I have never, to my knowledge, at least, been deceived by my sneseis (then again, I have only trained under 2) and I feel lucky about that, but it is kidna beside the point. Going back to the Quackwatch idea. I don't think that is such a good idea. How do you decie which is real or not? I think that it would put the power to decide legitimacy in some people's eyes. Which, needless to say, is bad. We could be giving a few people the power to decide the fate of some schools which there is a chance they are legitimate, just misunderstood. It has happened on this forum. What would be a better idea I think is to post what to avoid and a list to questions to ask. Not very original, but it is more flexible, even better than the web site. you don't need a list so you can cover more dojos and senseis. And witch hunting sometimes isn't a good thing. We are budoks and bujutsuka, not Puritan judges for witch trials. I think sometimes it is easy to forget this thing.

Jeff Bristol

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It may come to pass that myriad people suffer from the evils of one man, in such a case are not myriad people saved by killing one man? Is this not a true case of the sword that kills is the sword that gives life?

12th June 2000, 23:49
John Lindsey,

Okay. I'm with you on you're point of maintaining civility in disagreements. I agree wholeheartedly. I am occasionally misunderstood when attempting humorous disagreement so I've been on the same side of this frustrating situation as Don Cunningham. As hard as I try sometimes, what I mean and how it's perceived are different. (I guess I'm a crummy writer so thats my penalty for crummy writing)

Mr Boler,

A point I stand by is that if you are tired of a particular thread that comes up from time to time, or if it irritates you, simply don't read it. This is the USA. You are free not to read something you don't like last time I checked. The old info you are tired of may be new information to someone who's never heard about it and is interested in it. The public deserves open access to opinions like those brought up here on E-budo. To deny an individual open access to public opinions on a public forum smacks of censorship to me. Everyone of the individuals put to task here has had the option to personally come here and defend their position or present their facts if they feel they are being unfairly represented.

Where are they ????

The reason these topics keep coming up over and over is because the facts concerning these certain individuals are not forthcoming. In a recent case where someone was scrutinized rather harshly here on e-budo, the individual in question stepped forward with proof of his claims. Appropriate apologies were quickly issued and in the future if questions concerning this individuals claims arise, many posters here on e-budo will defend this individuals claims because they have been satisfactorily presented with convincing evidence to support those claims.

The process works!

For the life of me I cannot see what the problem is with this process. The public scrutiny of a persons claims is a time honored method of establishing whether those claims meet the criterior of being accurate. Any individual who asks for public acknowledgement of certain facts then dodges public scrutiny of those facts invaribly brings questions of doubt upon himself. He alone has the power to alleviate this situation as he has asked for it by making the claims in these first place. I have been occasionally questioned about my teaching credentials. They are open to public scrutiny
anytime and their authenticity can be confirmed by individuals like Stan Pranin. See I don't hide behind anything but then again, I don't have anything to hide.

So:

I say this whole thing works just fine . And I agree that we should try to maintain as much civility as possible when debating potential fraudulent claims made by certain individuals. But flames are occasionally going to rise and that is the nature of the beast. That old adage of "If you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen" applies here quite nicely I think.

Toby Threadgill

Kolschey
13th June 2000, 00:26
I love a good spirited debate as much as anyone, else I'd have not thrown in my two cents in on this and various other topics. What I am seeing is a situation where people's manners are showing some serious cracks around the edges. When the dialogue begins to have the quality of a dart fight, I cannot help but feel that this is detrimental to the gravity of the discussion, whatever that discussion is concerned with. I requested a cease fire because it seemed that people were becoming increasingly involved with personal attacks, including the sort of language that I would expect to hear in a bar fight. Someone else addresed the issue nicely, in asking that we consider how our respective teachers, students, and communities would view this sort of conflict. Let me share with you a true story.
Several years ago, I became involved with a live performance group. I enjoyed their company immensely, and began working with them regularly. One year,when they made plans for a Fourth of July party, I decided to invite two of my friends from college.
Now two of the people in this theatre group were on bad terms with each other. One of them felt that her generosity and hard work was being mocked and belittled, the other found that my first friend's partner was inclined to treat him in a condescending and publicly humiliating fashion. And so it came to pass that that very evening, the two of them began screaming at each other on the front porch in full view of the neighborhood.
My college friends were disgusted with the whole sordid affair, and vowed never to return. Despite my attempts to explain the various mitigating circumstances, or the various merits of the group, the damage was done. My college friends could no longer understand why I would choose to spend time with people of that sort.
Martial arts already have a number of difficulties with the public, as we were talking about in a thread just recently on "what view does the public take". How many people are we being heard by? We have the illusion that these are intimate conversations, but in truth there are hundreds, and maybe thousands of people who search the web in order to learn more about martial arts. To watch a group of adults use angry, sarcastic language and vicious put-downs will be of detriment to those who practice these arts, and then must deal with the stereotype of martial artists being overly agggressive and hostile individuals, and those many unseen spectators who may wish to learn more and find themselves drawing a bad conclusion about martial arts, and martial arts practitioners. The founders of or many arts have set a high standard of character for us to measure ourelves by... Let us be worthy of the responsibilities we have been given.

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Krzysztof M. Mathews
" For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me"
-Rudyard Kipling

MarkF
13th June 2000, 11:55
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I say this whole thing works just fine . And I agree that we should try to maintain as much civility as possible when debating potential fraudulent claims made by certain individuals. But flames are occasionally going to rise and that is the nature of the beast. That old adage of "If you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen" applies here quite nicely I think.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Toby Threadgill


Geez, Have we all forgotten the so-called "fire-fights" over aiki? Do we have such short memories? Attacks were made as well as argument, and the only thing which happened with that discussion was that it brought in other people who normally didn't post on the aikijj forum. I find no problem with that. I have had some really good ones just over whether judo had aiki, was just a sport or martial art (hey, it's two...two...two arts in one http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif ), or whether ajj was a legit koryu or gendai art. All sorts of things were said, and you know what? It died out quietly, although it was one of the best discussions I have had on the subject of MA. This is a public problem so should not the public be given the opportunity to discuss it? OK, the one we are talking about is an old one, but there are new people on this board everyday. I believe if the people are public people, and those who have been discussed ad nauseum are public people, are they not? (Well, they are now, anyway) The Internet, in my way of thinking, is a public place. If there is a website, I don't see the harm in discussing it on a public forum. BTW: If there are small children reading this, change the channel!



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Mark F. Feigenbaum

13th June 2000, 15:18
Don Cunningham, Professional Instigator...

Although I like the sound of it, the truth is that I am not a professional. Never claimed to be one, either. As for being ineffective, I think that is still under debate. I seem to have stirred up some action.

The man in question won't respond for the same reason he is unlikely to sue me. If he did, he would have to admit to behaviors and practices which have both civil and criminal liabilities. Even for him, that would be a very dumb thing to do.

Sincerely,

Don "I wanna be a Professional Instigator" Cunningham

[This message has been edited by budokai (edited 06-13-2000).]

Tetsutaka
14th June 2000, 00:21
...a sharp poke in the ear with a pointy stick...

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Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."