Kukishin-ryu bujutsu / Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho [Archive]

Meik Skoss

29th January 2001, 21:30

A. Steigert wrote: "Today, I saw an nnime-TV series called "Samurai" for the very first time. What's this got to do with koryu, you say? Well, the opponent was using the ô-gama to fight. Now I wonder, how well known is the ô-gama in other koryû, besides the Kukishinden-ryû? I never heared of it outside KKSR..."

Asayama Ichiden-ryu uses a rather large sickle in some of its techniques. Dunno how they refer to the weapon, though. It would seem more logical to pronounce it with a "k" than a "g," but that changes the meaning completely. An o-kama's a guy who's a tad light in his zori (to coin a phrase). He wears simply *divine* pink and lavender kimono for training and has really exquisite taste in such martial arts as tea ceremony, interior decorating, flower arrangement, incense appreciation and the like.

If I recall correctly, one can study the ways of the o-kama in Shinjuku 2-chome. Although I never asked for a blow-by-blow (you should pardon the expression) description of his training routine, a guy who lived in the flat next door to me when I still lived in Shinjuku used to hang out there (I guess in more ways than one). He said it was... "colorful."

Earl Hartman

29th January 2001, 21:35

Meik! Behave!

CKohalyk

29th January 2001, 22:02

shokku ya!!!

Meik!! Run while you still can!! Abunai yo!!

I'll remember the "zori" line for future reference.
Meccha omoroi!!!!!

Kennin,

Check out *HIBUKI NO SUBETE NO WAKARU GA HON*. I recall seeing some pretty wicked looking 5ft. long (haft) kusari-gama. You might get a hint of where to look by reading that chapter.

Regards,

CKohalyk

[Edited by CKohalyk on 01-30-2001 at 06:23 PM]

poryu

31st January 2001, 16:39

Achim

I have not seen an O-gama in the Kukishinden ryu. The Kukishiin ryu once used the Kusarigama, that is now lost in the Kukishin Ryu. The Kusarigama and O-gama are not in Kukishinden Ryu.

That is unless I have been mislead somewhere

As far as I am aware there is no Kama, O-Gama/O-Kama in any Bujinkan school.

This needs looking into

Dave Lowry

31st January 2001, 21:02

Shan't mention any names, but there is a minor Hollywood celebrity who has parlayed a cursory exposure to budo into some kind of career in the talkies. Having acquired the bulk of his spoken Japanese courtesy of female acquaintances in Japan, his speech is somewhat onnarashii. Consequently, I have heard him referred to in Japan several times as "Okama sensei."

Those interested in Nihongo should note that "okama" is slang. More polite is "danshoku" or even more so--and what you hear in more polite society in Kyoto/Nara: "kagema-ya."

Cordially, and with feet planted firmly in his zori--not that there's anything wrong with those who don't,

Dave Lowry

Meik Skoss

1st February 2001, 00:43

!!DUDE!!

Where'n the *h--l* do you learn words like that, anyway? In my twenty-four years living in the Land of the Sinking Yen, I always wanted to learn stuff like that, but the bozos (or is it bozi?) I ran with no akamai how fo' speak li' dat. It has to be some special part of your teacher's curriculum, ne? Am I right, or'm I right? Ya know what I'm sayin' here, Vinnie?

JRSims

1st February 2001, 01:03

OK, so I'm curious:

If it is a Kusari-Ogama, does that mean he is into whips and chains?

Inquiring minds want to know...

-John Sims

Rennis

1st February 2001, 05:47

I wonder what this says about the recent quality of conversation here on E-Budo, but this is by far the most interesting discussion to take place in Koryu area in quite awhile. In keeping with the thread, I have always wondered if those large studded tetsubo one often see's in old prints weren't somehow related to this sort of training as well...

Rennis Buchner

Dave Lowry

1st February 2001, 12:24

Um, not sure exactly what is the assembled interest here (nor, come to think of it, do I want to know), and this really isn’t my forte, but I’ve gotten a couple of requests off-list to explain the etymologies of the terms I used above.

Danshoku. Dan is the same as in “otoko:” male. Shoku is the same as “iro:” colour. We’re all aware of the penchant of our brethern in Sumerami-kuni to use “colour” when referring to matters of a sexual nature (i.e., momoiro-yugi—“rose-coloured play” = foreplay, a term I once, at a particularly inopportune moment of my youth, confused with momodachi = hiking up one’s hakama in preparation for a fight). So, danshoku is “male colour/lust.” An oblique reference to the activity became an even more oblique term to describe the participant.

Kagema-ya. Some Edo period taverns had “rooms in the back” to where the fellows so inclined could repair to discuss things like colours and such. The rooms—ma—were kept shadowy-dark—kage—at these places—ya—and so a kagema-ya was a place where such diversions took place. Again (I’m assuming here), the name for the place gradually came to refer to the person who frequented it.

I think the standard term now for the activity is doseiai, but that could be dated and there’s probably more current slang. Polite old Kansai terms for it were wakashu-do or jaku-do (both mean roughly, the Way of young men).

Cordially, and feeling the sudden urge to spend the afternoon watching Joan Chen movies,

poryu

1st February 2001, 15:15

HI all

I think this talk is suited for those oriental girls on canal street in Amsterdam (please note i do not frequent there - merely as a tourist)

I think the Large Kusari Gama i think John Sims refers to is similar to the one on the cover of Hatsumis history and traditions book. It has a dodgy siloette of a ninja with a huge Kusari gama.

That I believe is from Koto Ryu and is called Yoroi Gama. I will point out for any bujinkan people that this is hearsay from a Hatsumis classes in Japan last year

As for Daves wondeful Japanese flowery talk. I know a few girls I want to try that on. <lol>

Joachim

1st February 2001, 15:26

Originally posted by poryu
(...)I think the Large Kusari Gama i think John Sims refers to is similar to the one on the cover of Hatsumis history and traditions book. It has a dodgy siloette of a ninja with a huge Kusari gama.

That I believe is from Koto Ryu and is called Yoroi Gama. (...)

There are two photos on page 139 of "Ninjutsu, History and Tradition", showing Hatsumi with what is described in the text as an "oh-gama".

poryu

1st February 2001, 15:53

Hi Achim

Yesit is in History and traditions but where doeit say it is from Kukishinden Ryu.

That book was written at a time when Hatsumi says that everything is Togakure Ryu.

Manaka stated that there was no Kusarigama in the Kukishinden Ryu or any other Bujinkan Ryuha. The cloest thing is the Kyoketsu Shoge which is Togakure Ryu.

Hatsumi uses lots of things that are not in the bujinkan to help explain his teachings.

The Kusari Fundo (manrikigusari) is not to be found officially in any of the Bujinkan schools. Yet he highly ratesits uses after his training with Nawa Yumio in his younger days. that is why he suggests we learn it a little.

He also demonstrates some use of one of the Shikomi Zue. In the Araki Ryu and Kiraku Ryu it is call Chigiriki.

Depending in which book you are looking at and the refernce it is not always to be taken as fact.

I will be in Duisburg teaching at the Bujinkan Dojo there in march maybe we could meet up

Meik Skoss

1st February 2001, 16:08

P. Richardson writes: "He also demonstrates some use of one of the [s]hikomi[z]ue. In the Araki-ryu and Kiraku-ryu it's call[ed] [c]higiriki."

Nope. A shikomizue is a (walking) stick/cane with a what is generally a single-edged blade concealed within it. While I am not overly familiar with what Hatsumi and his erstwhile MIB call their weapons, that's what is generally understood by the term. A chigiriki is a flail-like weapon, mounted on a haft that is generally about 130 cm. in length. A Kiraku-ryu chigiriki is, indeed, made in shikomi fashion, with the chain and weight lying concealed until deployed, but that's not the way an Araki-ryu chigiriki is constructed, at least according to the weapons I've seen of the three Araki-ryu lines that remain extant.

A question to all of you out there in cyberbudoland: why do so many people capitalize Japanese words when they write in English? If one is trying to emphasize a non-English word, why not just use italics, bold-face, or underlining? I mean, like, duhhh..., it's not as though a person on E-Budo isn't going to recognize the word as being from over yonder or nuthin', right?

Earl Hartman

1st February 2001, 16:58

Dave:

Thanx for the etymology lesson. I had a feeling that the "kagema-ya" thing had something to so with a "place of shadows".

As for the "danshoku" thing, I'm glad it was that "shoku" and not....you know....the (ahem) other one.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Joachim

5th February 2001, 15:07

Originally posted by poryu
Hi Achim
Yesit is in History and traditions but where doeit say it is from Kukishinden Ryu.

You obviously had me confused with Achim Steigert, the thread starter, from Belgium there. :-)
I just pointed out that the weapon is in one of Hatsumis books and that he calls it an "oh-gama".

I will be in Duisburg teaching at the Bujinkan Dojo there in march maybe we could meet up

Oh. Is there an official Bujinkan dojo in duisburg now? Who's the shidoshi? Hopefully it's not the ...ehm... rather large guy with the Tae Kwon Do black belt from the World Wushu Federation :-) , who got his black belt in the Bujinkan (from my former shidoshi) because he had his own dojo?

Okashira

25th July 2004, 15:53

Hello everybody,
There are 2 books on buyubooks,
One is called Kukishin Ryu Bujutsu: Bojutsu, Hanbojutsu, Tachiai by Kiba Koshiro
The other is Kukishinden Zensho (1983).

Are these book related to Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho?

Thanks!

George Kohler

3rd August 2004, 16:19

Yes, and also others.

morpheus

3rd January 2005, 19:16

Just wanted to get some opinions of a book by Georg Stiebler on Kukishin ryu. I have seen the book listed and wondered if it would be worth the purchase. It is in German.
Any opinions are appreciated.
thanks

kabutoki

3rd January 2005, 21:07

Hi,
where exactly did you see it listed ? I have never heard of the book...

Thanks,
Karsten

[Edit: I found the book, it has been out of print but it is identical to this one "BO - Karate. HANBO- JITSU - die Techniken des Stockkampfes". I do not know the books, sorry.]

Mekugi

1st June 2005, 03:48

Last weekend I attended the Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho Denshukai in Toba, Japan. Aside from excellent training and study-review, we also visited some of the sites extremely important to the history of the Kuki family. I took a few pictures while visiting these sites, which I have uploaded them to image station. If you would like to see them, please click here:
Kukishin Album from Toba (http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2126083711&code=16329517&mode=invite&DCMP=isc-email-AlbumInvite)

Unfortunately, you need to create a free account there to view the pictures.

Thanks!

-Russ

morpheus

1st June 2005, 18:05

Russ,
Great pics. I have begun some of the Kukishin ryu hanbo training as it relates to Hontai Yoshin ryu this week.
I hope all is well.
Jeff

Mekugi

1st June 2005, 19:31

I am glad you liked them!
You should have a great time with the hanbo. Fun stuff! I'm doing great, moving this month closer to Nagoya. Things on your end I trust are good!?

-Russ

Russ,
Great pics. I have begun some of the Kukishin ryu hanbo training as it relates to Hontai Yoshin ryu this week.
I hope all is well.
Jeff

morpheus

1st June 2005, 20:56

Things are going well. Continuing to train with Barnes Sensei in Louisville, as often as possible. Slowly working my way through kata, and enjoying myself immensely as I do.
Good luck with the move. Definitely one thing I do not enjoy!
Jeff

Lbkickn

7th March 2009, 23:02

I'm making this inquiry based off remarks from another forum
I brought the subject here to learn more about it.

I am making this inquiry with quite a bit of respect
only trying learn more about it whether it is accurate or not?

It was said that the Koryu Budo of the Kuki family such as Kukishinden tenshin hyoho
were revived schools and that Takamatsu Toshitsugu, teacher of the X-kan headmaster
Maasaki Hatsumi, was the one who helped revive them -- from the kuki based budo that he held and which became the kukishinden ryu that Hatsumi and the rest of the X-kan teaches.

The link to that conversation (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73251&page=3).

I hope this inquiry won't make anyone angry?

But is this true?

And if this is true then what does this make the Kukishinden ryu
taught in the X-kans?

Would someone please explain all of this to me?

I am very curious and don't know the facts or circumstances.

TYVM in advance for any replies.

pbpv

9th March 2009, 12:05

Based on what I read, Takamatsu had copies of Kuki scrolls. The kuki family lost the scrolls in air raid and Takamatsu restored those from his copy.

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?Takamatsu_Toshitsugu

Lbkickn

9th March 2009, 21:46

pbpv said: Based on what I read, Takamatsu had copies of Kuki scrolls. The kuki family lost the scrolls in air raid and Takamatsu restored those from his copy.

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site...tsu_Toshitsugu

Ok, I read that page up.

Also, from what Mekugi (Russ Ebert) said over on Budoseek:

Takamatsu did not revive any of these ryuha.

Takamatsu did not re-teach anything to the kuki family.

None of these koryu kuki schools were revived.

Takamatsu was only a researcher of the kuki archives.

Now you've added to these listed facts that
Takamatsu helped the kuki by restoring lost documents
to the kuki archive that were destroyed during WWII.

Although it's the exact opposite of what's been getting said
around the internet, these positions seem to be more reasonable.
But it is the exact opposite of what's been getting said.

They were saying that Takamatsu revived the kukishin schools,
retaught the kuki family their own art and that these revived schools became koryu only as of the early 20th century (circa the 1930's-1940's ??)

.

Gibukai

10th March 2009, 18:06

Hello,

you may like to check out the surprisingly comprehensive information at the Kukishin homepage, which has an English section as well:

www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/index_e.html

There you can find some points regarding Takamatsu, too.

Regards,

Henning Wittwer

Lbkickn

10th March 2009, 18:13

Thanx to everyone

here at at Budoseek

I have had all my questions answered
and have learned alot.

DafyddOwain

13th March 2009, 12:39

Takamatsu was only a researcher of the kuki archives.

(taken from http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/index_e.html)
Q： On the Lineage of Tenshinhyoho

A： A historical document says that Shirai Toru taught Tenshin Itto Ryu, which he learned from his teacher Terada, to Tsuda Meikei. He also taught Tenshin Shirai Ryu consisting of Sword techniques and Shuriken techniques, the school of martial arts that was his own creation, to Yoshida Okunojo; following which Toru focused on Tenshin Hyoho till he died. As we have pointed out on our website, Tenshin Hyoho was supposedly passed onto Kuki Takahiro, the head of the Kuki family, from Shirai Toru himself at the end of the Tokugawa period. It was, however, just Tenshin Hyoho, the secret Toru devised till the latest years, that was integrated into the system of Kukishinden. Other 7 fields of martial arts including Bojutsu techniques and Shinto secrets have been passed onto us in their original form to this day. The Kukishin Ryu that integrated Tenshin Hyoho into its system of martial arts is handed down exclusively in the Soke Kuki's family, whereas in other lineage, such as Kukishin Ryu Bar techniques in Takagi Ryu---Okuni den--- and Bessho den, the school that branched out from Kukishin Ryu when Kukishin Ryu was founded, Tenshin Hyoho is not integrated into the system. Apart from the Kukishin Ryu handed down in the Soke Kuki's family, Tenshin Hyoho is handed down in the school of Kukishin Ryu Takamatsu Chosui taught. In their school of Kukishin Ryu, Tenshin Hyoho is taught as part of Gokui Hiden, whose school name begins with "Tenshin Hyoho."

so it would seem that he's more than just a researcher.

Lbkickn

13th March 2009, 14:50

Hello everyone,

I have reviewed those pages of the KTH website, especially this page (http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/history07_e.htm), which speaks directly of Takamatsu sensei and Tanemura.

I'd have understood the material content of that page to be in favor of and authenticating the kukishin ryu of the X-kans -- but the guys over on Budoseek keep telling me that I am misinterpreting the statements on the page? That it doesn't say what I thought it said.

In either event, the subject is a good one, and I thank all of you for replying, but at this point I'm not sure what to think of it all? It's not important. At least we're having an enjoyable discussion.

.

Mekugi

15th March 2009, 09:45

Wilf Muecke

15th March 2009, 11:51

I'd have understood the material content of that page to be in favor of
and authenticating the kukishin ryu of the X-kans -- but the guys
over on Budoseek keep telling me that I am misinterpreting the
statements on the page? That it doesn't say what I thought it said.
I think they`re right with their opinions there - over there at budoseek.com.;)

First of all, we sometimes just have to accept, that certain answers
are not existant or at least (out of respect etc.?) not openly published.

Furthermore we should be aware (especially, if we`re not "in" the stuff)
of the fact that we often tend to see as written, what we`d like
to be written and should try to re-adjust our focus on things.

I don`t know why, but I will repeat myself:
"Chosui taught "authentic kukishin-ryû" to Akimoto and Kimura,
as at the time they were his students he was still in this ryû."
(not exactly word by word) is something completely different from:
"[...] the Kukishinden tenshin hyoho website [...] specifically
identified that the Kukishin ryu taught in the X-kans
as being fully legitimate and authentic.".

You are in at least 3 different forums, just to look for an
"answer" which doesn`t doe any harm or good to your
own ma-training as you are - as you did mention -
in none of the 3 x-kan - why does the question
cause you that much bad headache, then?

You`ve been told, that your question isn`t just one of these questions
of simply "yes" or "no" and that you should not fill in the gaps
with what you would consider to be logical or good.
Writing about the relation between Takamatsu
and person A (Kimura) and also person B
(Akimoto) doesn`t say anything about
his relation to person C (Hatsumi).

You not just missinterpreting things.
Yopu do interpret things that aren`t htere,
where you think you`ve seen them (kuki-homepage).

Lbkickn

15th March 2009, 17:11

hello all,

Mekugi and Wilf Muecke, you seem to have either forgotten or misunderstood that this entire thread was placed as an inquiry based off the conversation and remarks of others posters... originally on another forum. I only brought the subject here (and to Budoseek) to inquire about the matter.

The link to that conversation is in the very first thread post above.

I deeply appreciate the conversation but you're giving me the impression that
you think the conversation and remarks are my own. And you seem to object?

That being the case, I took the liberty of kindly reminding you
that it was a subject raised by another and I brought it to
both Ebudo and to Budoseek to find out if it was correct.

I don't pretend to understand the entire subject or it's intracacies
but I have had my inquiry answered, quite thoroughly :)
The answer was more or less what I expected.
The answer was more or less what I thought it would be.

Your conduct is a little confusing but frankly
my inquiry is finished... TYVM to all who replied
I really did learn alot and enjoyed the converstaion!!

TYVM guys and gals.

:)