PDA

View Full Version : Okinawa Ti and Shorinryu Site



Timothy.G.B.
2nd June 2005, 18:34
To anyone interested, I have been on this forum in the past talking about old style Okinawan Shorinryu and Ti and so I thought I would post a link to my teacher's website so that people might be able to see it (Much more interesting than talking about it) :)

If you want to see kata, check out the multimedia page. If you are interested in a small taste of Ti, please see the Demo video on the same page. If you are in the mood and want to let me know how bad you think my kata looks, it will have to be good to beat my own criticisms of it ;) !

Most of you will understand, the website is just a small taste of our entire system, even with the number of videos on there!

Enjoy,
Tim Black
3rd Dan
Kokusai Shinjinbukan

Here is the URL:
www.shinjinbukan.net

Victor Smith
3rd June 2005, 01:24
Hi Tim,

Boy what an excellen site. Thanks for shareing this.

Robby Bray
3rd June 2005, 02:54
Hey Tim, that is a nice website. All that hip looks a lot like my Ryu Kyu Kobudo that we practice under Tamayose Sensei on Okinawa. Do you live close to Vancouver? If you get a chance email me at tesshin12001@yahoo.com

Sanseru
3rd June 2005, 17:50
Hey Robby:

I teach Ryukyu Kobudo (via Minowa Katsuhiko) out of the Vancouver Shinjinbukan (hi Tim). Please drop me a line if you feel inclined.

Mario McKenna
kowakai@telus.net

Timothy.G.B.
3rd June 2005, 17:59
Glad that people are enjoying the site so far and making some connections as well :)

Mario, hope things are going well for you in the Kits dojo!

Best regards,
Tim
---------------

Tim Black
3rd Dan
Kokusai Shinjinbukan

Robby Bray
3rd June 2005, 18:37
Yes, we too are training pretty hard in Ryu Kyu Kobudo. We are under Tamayose Hidemi Sensei, a student of Akamine Sensei. We train more often with his most Senior student Donald Shapland Sensei in Canada. We bring him down every 6 weeks and go up to see him at least once a year to keep us going in the right direction. What an archive of information he is. You can see our website at www.ocalatesshinkan.com We just got it up a week or so ago so it still has a lot of holes in it, but I'm doing it myself on my spare time so ...

Sanseru
3rd June 2005, 19:06
Ok Tim, I will put my "devil's advocate" hat on for a moment and put this out. My two yen worth of information with respect to the different "systems" of unarmed combat (based on Kinjo Hiroshi's classification) present on Okinawa:

TI - PURELY INDIGENOUS OKINAWAN SYSTEMS
TOUDI - CHINESE INFLUENCED OKINAWAN SYSTEMS
KENPO - PURE CHINESE SYSTEMS
KARATE - MODERN PE SYSTEM E.G. ITOSU'S BRAINCHILD

Any takers? :-)

Mario

JS3
3rd June 2005, 23:07
Tim,
I was wondering if you could comment on the "paper punching" (for lack of a better term)
seen on your site as well as on the videos that Onaga Sensei is in.

BTW if you havent seen these tapes they are excellent!
Uechi Ryu. Goju Ryu are also shown.

Thanks.

Timothy.G.B.
4th June 2005, 00:05
Hi Joe:

I can comment on it that it is hard as heck to split the paper consistently :) We practice it to work on speed and focus mainly.

What exactly would you like to know about the paper or about the videos?

Hi Mario:

I'm not exactly sure but it seems like an interesting classification. I don't know Kinjo Hiroshi.

Best,
Tim
-----------------
Tim Black
3rd Dan Shorinryu
Kokusai Shinjinbukan

Sanseru
4th June 2005, 01:24
Hi Tim:

A little bit of background, Kinjo Hiroshi was a student of Hanashiro Chomo - his students' website can be viewed here:

http://stk.s82.xrea.com/kinjo/modules/icontent/index.php?page=1

At any rate, I will try to explain a little more via examples that Kinjo has provided in the past :-)

TI - PURELY INDIGENOUS OKINAWAN SYSTEMS e.g. Shuri-te
TOUDI - CHINESE INFLUENCED OKINAWAN SYSTEMS e.g. Naha-te
KENPO - PURE CHINESE SYSTEMS e.g. Uechi-ryu
KARATE - MODERN PE SYSTEM E.G. ITOSU'S BRAINCHILD

I guess the problem for me is that this classification system doesn't work. There is too much overlap between classifications. For example, Uechi-ryu to me is NOT a purely Chinese system, but is heavily influenced by Okinawan principles as well as Chinese. Even Shuri-te has outside influence possibly from China and mainland Japan.

In my own mind "ti" simply is an old generic term used on Okinawa to refer to unarmed technique. It is not a separate art per se, but simply a methodology that is no longer in vogue.

Cheers,

Mario

wsteigner
4th June 2005, 02:48
Hi McKenna Sensei,
Didn`t really understand your 1st post with the Classes
of Ryu Ha on Okinawa ,but my guess was right [D] None of the above.
Those classification dont fit Okinawa very well now.Maybe when he was a very young man training with Hanashiro Sensei they fit but you still had
the likes of Motobu-Ryu , and family ryu Kojo and Nakaima etc being taught
which don`t fit either.
Ti/Te ,Tode, Naha Te,Shuri Te, Tomari Te ,Okinawa Te, Karate all have a nice ring to them I think.

thank you
bill steigner [A] All of the above

Daniel Kogan
8th June 2005, 19:46
Hi all, thanks for the kind words about the site, we’re always looking for feedback :)

Mario, first I guess a quick hello is in order, hope to see you soon. As for your statement/question about the classification; I’m curious if you happen to know where Kinjo sensei got that from.

From talking to old timers on Okinawa, what I’ve managed to discern is that the notion of Shuri-Te, Naha-Te and Tomari-Te are terms that originated from Nagamine sensei.

Prior to Nagamine sensei, Funakoshi talked about Ti not as being geographically bound, but technique oriented, Hen-te (Fin-di), A-ti-fa, Ura-di, Uchi-di, Mawai-di, Kuma-Di etc.. essentially a taxonomy for classifying techniques, this use is till very common in many old style dojo on Okinawa today.

The other way I’ve heard the term Ti used by teachers who claim to teach Ti, is as a means of attributing a school of thought to a particular person, as in

Q: “Who’s Ti do you learn?”
A: “Onaga-di”

In this sense it is similar to saying “Ha” as in Chibana-ha.

Onaga sensei would say that “Ti wa chiie” -Ti is wisdom, meaning it is a way to understand or think about technique and fighting theory. The best example I could give is Miyamoto Musashi’s use of the term “Heiho” –strategy. This is the way we use the term Ti.

If you managed to read to this point in my post you must really care, this is a pretty dry topic, but thought I’d share.

wsteigner
9th June 2005, 04:47
Hi Daniel Kogan Sensei; I had read in the McCarthy book"The Mabuni Kenwa
Story" that The Naha Te, Shuri Te and Tomari Te was coined for the visit
of Kano Jigoro in 1927 so that Toudi would sound/be more Okinawan in nature, rather than Chinese and that the Toudi Kenkyukai agreed. But all that changed at the 1936 meeting where empty replaced Tou in Karate Kanji.
Takao Nakaya in his book "Karate-Do History and Philosophy" put the Naha Te, Shuri Te, Tomari Te on his time line around 1830/1850 as being used, but since Miyagi Sensei was still using Toudi in 1936 those dates are a little off
i would think. Your web site is very nice and glad to see you are opening
the door to Ti .
thank you
bill steigner
Jinbukai

Daniel Kogan
10th June 2005, 19:45
Hi Bill, curious if Pat provided any references in his book? Is there a Bibliography by chance?

Sanseru
12th June 2005, 12:36
Hi Dan:

Thanks for the post - always good reading. The info from Mabuni classifying karate into geographic locality because of Kano's visit to Okinawa appears in his 1938 publication "Kobo Jizai Goshin Jutsu Karate Kenpo".

At any rate, I don't know too much about Kinjo Hiroshi's classification system only that I disagree with it. It is a novel attempt but does not really capture Okinawan karate as there are too many inconsistencies IMHO. Most of my teachers would refer to techniques and their execution using the term "ti/te". In that sense I find it a generic term for unarmed Okinawan combat.

Cheers,

Mario

wsteigner
12th June 2005, 22:57
Hi Daniel Kogan Sensei; He footnoted "Kindai Karatedo no Rekishio Kataru
p.270. That Funakoshi and Gima Shinkin Sensei 1st heard these terms from Mabuni Sensei when he and Miyagi Sensei visited Tokyo in 1928.
thank you
bill

Daniel Kogan
16th June 2005, 21:43
I don’t think that all these different posts necessarily conflict. Let me see if I can string them together in a coherent way.

I suspect that the usage of the terms Naha-Ti, Shuri-Ti and Tomari-Ti might have gone something like this:

Most Tiji-gaya (the hogen term for people how do Ti, equivalent to Japanese term Karate-ka for practitioners of Karate) would use the term Ti to classify the different techniques into groups of similar concepts, either physically or conceptually similar. I think we see this in Funakoshi’s 1925 Rentan Goshin Tode-Jutsu. Although he does refer to his art as Tou-Di (Tang hand) he refers to techniques in groups of different “Ti” ie. Fin-Di, Ura-Di etc…

I suspect that in 1927 in an attempt to appear more “Japanese”, Mabuni sensei didn’t want to use a reference to the “Tang dynasty” and as a result used indigenous locals, Naha, Shuri and Tomari. This was a veiled attempt to not be related to China. As the political climate became even more xenophobic, Mabuni and others, by this time in mainland Japan, became complicit in what can only be seen as unrepentant anti-Chinese sentiments and simply dropped any reference to the use of the term Tou-Di. Since most (not all, but most) of the teachers in mainland were not very well verse in Ti to begin with, they simply didn’t need, understand or appreciate the differences between Kuruma-Di and Fin-Di for example and as a result they simply called it Karate (empty hand) .

So, this now gets me back to Nagamine sensei. I suspect, (strictly an opinion here) that since the use of the Terms Shuri-Te and Naha-Te were really conceived for a Japanese audience and soon abandoned for the even more ethnocentric label “Karate” (empty hand), most senior students in Okinawa during the 30’s/40’s/50’s never heard the term Shuri-Te or Naha-Te. (as apparently Funakoshi hadn’t until visited by Mabuni in Naichi –mainland).

The current generation of senior teachers in Okinawa probably only heard the these terms once Nagamine sensei published his book, which by the way was one of the first and few books about Okinawan Karate actually widely read on Okinawa.

So when the current generation of Tiji-gaya saw this classification scheme, firstly they didn’t understand it since it doesn’t match what they do (Ti) and secondly they attributed it to Nagamine, most Okinawan teachers do little if any research, they just worry about technique not so much about the history.

I think it is probably the case that Nagamine sensei might not have invented these terms, but was probably the one who introduced them into the common Karate jargon of today. And in all honesty did a bit of a disservice by muddying the waters for people trying to learn Ti.

Let the flaming begin :)

kuma-de
19th June 2005, 23:16
Hello All,

My name is Jim Prouty, I am in Northeast CT near the MA line. I have been training in both Okinawan Goju Ryu & Shorin Ryu for the past 33 years.

I am semi-retired from teachung since 2 spinal surgeries in 2001 & 2003, I teach my yudansha only now.

But some of you know me from other forums. I like to have fun, but I am not swayed from answering anything difficult. I was a member of this forum when it was a fledgling group of mudansha. But I am back to lurk or answer any questions if needed.

My best to all,

Jim Prouty

Katsujinken
20th June 2005, 22:07
Some interesting discussion:

'would use the term Ti to classify the different techniques into groups of similar concepts, either physically or conceptually similar'

I would totally agree with your point on this, Ti as seen in the Motobu Udun Ti and the Bugiekan (Kiyoko Higa's Dojo) are similiar but both also have Karate at their Dojo's, the Te that Toma's people do as part of their Seidokan also seems similiar in concept to the previous two mentioned. Again some similiar concepts appear to be found in Kuniba Ha Motobu Shito Ryu. Other include Renbukan of Seiichi Taba and Shiroma Seihan of Jo Ryu Mae Te Gassen Karate Kai.

'In 1924 Choyu Motobu, Chojun Miyagi, Kenwa Mabuni and Chotoku Kyan founded the Tode Research Club to preserve Tode, Kobu-Jutsu and Te' (Bishop 1996:133). Supposedly where above lines (with exception of Bugeikan) of Ti or Te came from.

'I suspect that in 1927 in an attempt to appear more “Japanese”, Mabuni sensei didn’t want to use a reference to the “Tang dynasty”. The Terms Shuri-Te and Naha-Te were really conceived for a Japanese audience and soon abandoned for the even more ethnocentric label “Karate” (empty hand), most senior students in Okinawa during the 30’s/40’s/50’s never heard the term Shuri-Te or Naha-Te. (as apparently Funakoshi hadn’t until visited by Mabuni in Naichi –mainland)'.

Whats more interesting is that there is often some claim that Ti (at least as a grappling system) had origins in or was influenced by Japanese martial arts, this could really have only been Jigen Ryu or another Satsuma Art but the connection is really unproven and it could have been propoganda in the sense mentioned. So personally I think there may be quite a lot in what you say about Mabuni Sensei

'The current generation of senior teachers in Okinawa probably only heard the these terms once Nagamine sensei published his book, which by the way was one of the first and few books about Okinawan Karate actually widely read on Okinawa'.

Nagamine claimed in his Okinawan Karate book that in Naha was Tegumi a grappling art, a proto-type of Okinawan Sumo, this was called Mutuo in Shuri, later when Tegumi and Mutuo were combined with Chinese Martial Arts techniques it was an early prototype of Te which became Karate.

'The other way I’ve heard the term Ti used by teachers who claim to teach Ti, is as a means of attributing a school of thought to a particular person'
I have heard it used that way as well and I think this is pretty accurate:
'Ti is wisdom, meaning it is a way to understand or think about technique and fighting theory'.

'Takao Nakaya in his book "Karate-Do History and Philosophy" put the Naha Te, Shuri Te, Tomari Te on his time line around 1830/1850 as being used, but since Miyagi Sensei was still using Toudi in 1936 those dates are a little off'.

Maybe but Miyagi Sensei was of the Shorei line, most Te's seem to be of the Shorin Line.Anyway the terms di, Ti and Te are interchangeable with Ti and Te apparently being Japanese pronounciations.



Regards

Tatsu
21st June 2005, 04:39
I'm a Matsumura Seito practitoner and Ti is often spoken of. Many of our grappling techniques include ti principles. Hohan Soken was fond of ti thumbing techniques, change-body and pp tactics which are integral to ti. I have yet to see any real ti techs in the US outside some tuite and ti principles inherent to Okinawan Kenpo and Matsumura Orthodox. Why is it that many of the high ranking Kobayashi practitoners I know of go to teachers of these aforementioned systems to learn ti? Did Nakazato and Miyahira not pass on these principles to their students? Did they even know them, being practitioners of Itosu-Ha karate-do? Was Higa privy to these lost principles, possibly being the only Chibana disciple that learned ti?

Good site.

Bryan Cyr, Nidan, Kokusai Shuri Te Karate/Kobujutsu Rengo Kai

Daniel Kogan
21st June 2005, 06:08
You raise an interesting point. I won’t speak to what Miyahira sensei and Nakazato sensei may or may not know, as I don’t know what they learned or taught their students, not having been there to see it.

But, I can tell you about where Onaga sensei’s Ti comes from, and that would be Yuchoku sensei.

Higa Yuchoku learned his from two main sources; his uncles and Miyagi Chojun sensei. Yuchoku was Shinzato Jinnan’s uke during most of Shinzato’s uchi deshi training with Miyagi sensei. Higa sensei was an accomplished instructor under Miyagi, as the Shihan-dai at Shinzato’s Dojo.

It was with this background and after Shinzato died in the war that he turned to Chibana sensei for instruction. Miyagi sensei had continued to teach Karate to his remaining seniors but really didn’t teach much Ti after the War, focusing mostly on Kata. As a result Yuchoku sensei went to find instruction elsewhere. At the time, and still today among Tijigaya, style was not a concern, Tijigaya simply seek out ideas, techniques and training methods that they can learn to apply.

It was with this rich insight into “Karate” that Higa arrived to Chibana’s dojo. Which explains why Chibana sensei was able and willing to teach him so much of his Kata and Karate. It was no accident that although Nakazato and Miyahira were students of Chibana’s long before Higa, it was Higa sensei that was the first student ever to receive a master’s rank from Chibana. He arrived with the raw material and insight that few others on Okinawa had been exposed to.

To this day both at the Kyudokan and the Shinjinbukan dojo, Miyagi sensei’s Yubi Undo and Kigu undo are taught, practiced and credited to him even though the Ryuha is Shorin-Ryu. The Kakie, Irikumi and other partner training was well were passed down by Higa from Miyagi Chojun sensei.

Just as an aside, I can say that having spoken to Goju-ryu teachers that trained before WWII, they told me that Higa and Onaga sensei’s training was what they had seen there sempai do when they were juniors in the Miyagi dojo.

Since you asked, hope that helps a bit. :)

Nyuck3X
21st June 2005, 15:04
I don't know about Nakazato, but Miyahira (according to Iha's web site
and Mark Bishop's book) was sent to train with Motobu by Chibabna.
I don't know if he withholds information for certian persons or
teaches it at all.

Tatsu
22nd June 2005, 00:46
You raise an interesting point. I won’t speak to what Miyahira sensei and Nakazato sensei may or may not know, as I don’t know what they learned or taught their students, not having been there to see it.

But, I can tell you about where Onaga sensei’s Ti comes from, and that would be Yuchoku sensei.

Higa Yuchoku learned his from two main sources; his uncles and Miyagi Chojun sensei. Yuchoku was Shinzato Jinnan’s uke during most of Shinzato’s uchi deshi training with Miyagi sensei. Higa sensei was an accomplished instructor under Miyagi, as the Shihan-dai at Shinzato’s Dojo.

It was with this background and after Shinzato died in the war that he turned to Chibana sensei for instruction. Miyagi sensei had continued to teach Karate to his remaining seniors but really didn’t teach much Ti after the War, focusing mostly on Kata. As a result Yuchoku sensei went to find instruction elsewhere. At the time, and still today among Tijigaya, style was not a concern, Tijigaya simply seek out ideas, techniques and training methods that they can learn to apply.

It was with this rich insight into “Karate” that Higa arrived to Chibana’s dojo. Which explains why Chibana sensei was able and willing to teach him so much of his Kata and Karate. It was no accident that although Nakazato and Miyahira were students of Chibana’s long before Higa, it was Higa sensei that was the first student ever to receive a master’s rank from Chibana. He arrived with the raw material and insight that few others on Okinawa had been exposed to.

To this day both at the Kyudokan and the Shinjinbukan dojo, Miyagi sensei’s Yubi Undo and Kigu undo are taught, practiced and credited to him even though the Ryuha is Shorin-Ryu. The Kakie, Irikumi and other partner training was well were passed down by Higa from Miyagi Chojun sensei.

Just as an aside, I can say that having spoken to Goju-ryu teachers that trained before WWII, they told me that Higa and Onaga sensei’s training was what they had seen there sempai do when they were juniors in the Miyagi dojo.

Since you asked, hope that helps a bit. :)

Thank you for the insight. I remember reading in Bishop's book the Higa quote that stated basically that Miyahira's karate was too shoulder locked and Nakazato's karate was useless. I was once a Shorinkan practitioner and I can say that the jiyu kumite aspect of it was great, and the one steps and SD drills were okay. I can't remember any mention of ti, although we did a lot of hojo undo, sparring, bag/mit training and body-hardening exercises. I can't comment on Shidokan.

In MSSR we emphasize hard contact partner drills and koteate. It is a kata intensive style, with little or no jiyu kumite at the yudansha level. I don't even know if the ti you speak of is the ti I've been taught. Can you give some examples of what it is you mean when you speak of ti and ti-training?

Thank you for your time and it's good to see that there is good old style Okinawan karate out there.

Tatsu
27th June 2005, 03:37
?




Bryan Cyr

Daniel Kogan
28th June 2005, 18:27
I guess the “?” was some how intended to entice to reply to your previous post? And, in particular, to your request for examples of Ti and Ti-training.

I hesitated because I wasn’t exactly certain how to respond. Clearly, just giving you names of Ti concepts such as Fin-di or Itten-tsuki or Muchimi isn’t helpful, nor would it do the topic justice. On the other hand the time and effort required to describe each concept and the amount of background knowledge required would make it impractical to do so on e-mail.

I’ll give you an example of how we train Ti. I spent 2 hours last night teaching my student about Itten tsuki, we covered the Yubi undo, Hojo undo and Kigu undo that goes along with that idea. As well as tenshin, and Kakie and irikumi applications. I’m not sure how I would explain that in an e-mail.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, when we talk about “Ti” it is much like Musashi sensei’s use of the word Heiho. Yes Musashi talks about specific technique in his book, but if that is what you got from reading the Book of Five Rings then you’ve missed the point. Ti, like Heiho is large concepts that break down into dozens of individual training exercises, specific application and fighting theory for each Ti concept.

I hope this helps,

Shorin Ryuu
29th June 2005, 21:49
Hi, I'm kind of new here.

I fall into the camp that believes "ti" is more of a general catch-all term for martial arts on Okinawa. I was speaking to someone who trained there extensively in the seventies (may have spent some time there in the sixties as well perhaps) and he told me just last week that people would still say things like "It's time for ti".

As a student of the Nakazato lineage, I must say there is quite a lot of "ti grappling" knowledge (to follow the same vein as the thread) within the Shorinkan organization. Every instructor I've met in the system (I've met quite a few) has had knowledge of it. There does not seem to be an extreme emphasis on the terminology of it all, yet the knowledge is there. It is most readily evident when they explain bunkai, the manner in which they do their kata or in some drills that may vary from dojo to dojo.

There does seem to be a difference from the one year I spent training in Matsumura Shorin Ryu. There, a large majority of the drills seemed to focus overtly and specifically on the "ti" characteristics.

I will ask my friend in Hawaii about this. He trains with a student of Chibana (Pat Nakata) who lived with Chibana during his stay in Okinawa for a number of years in the early sixties.

Tatsu
29th June 2005, 22:05
I guess the “?” was some how intended to entice to reply to your previous post? And, in particular, to your request for examples of Ti and Ti-training.

I hesitated because I wasn’t exactly certain how to respond. Clearly, just giving you names of Ti concepts such as Fin-di or Itten-tsuki or Muchimi isn’t helpful, nor would it do the topic justice. On the other hand the time and effort required to describe each concept and the amount of background knowledge required would make it impractical to do so on e-mail.

I’ll give you an example of how we train Ti. I spent 2 hours last night teaching my student about Itten tsuki, we covered the Yubi undo, Hojo undo and Kigu undo that goes along with that idea. As well as tenshin, and Kakie and irikumi applications. I’m not sure how I would explain that in an e-mail.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, when we talk about “Ti” it is much like Musashi sensei’s use of the word Heiho. Yes Musashi talks about specific technique in his book, but if that is what you got from reading the Book of Five Rings then you’ve missed the point. Ti, like Heiho is large concepts that break down into dozens of individual training exercises, specific application and fighting theory for each Ti concept.

I hope this helps,

Presumptuous? No need to explain, sir. So for example you practice the foreknuckle strike (single-point fist) the conditioning needed to use it effectively (the digit, the muscle training and body hardening needed), the angle of attack and so on.

Why is that so hard to explain that in English? Heiho jutsu as it applies to Okinawan MAs means basically the strategy and tactics as practiced in old-school Okinawan martial arts, right? Lindsey Sensei teaches these principles and has written about this and other aspects of bujutsu at length in our quarterly publication, "Maishin Shorinji". You should read it. His teachers were Hohan Soken, Yuichi Kuda, Fusei Kise and Sezan Kinjo.

I just wanted to see what your response would be, and it did seem a trite condascending. Might just be the net though. It's sometimes hard to convey words with intent and feeling over the web.

LIke I said I do Matsumura Seito, and we use many Ti principles in our training, in fact most of it is based on old Okinawan Sui-di training. Just wondering if somehow we differed in the definition and application of "Ti" training. Maybe just in depth. Thanks you for your time and response.

"!" ;)----> "?"

Bryan Cyr, Nidan, Kokusai Shuri-Te Karate/Kobujutsu Rengo Kai

Timothy.G.B.
30th June 2005, 19:08
Shook Ya:

What do you mean by Okinawa Sui-di training?

Best,
Tim

Tatsu
30th June 2005, 21:03
Shook Ya:

What do you mean by Okinawa Sui-di training?

Best,
Tim

Sui-Di is the original name of Matsumura's art. In Japanese it would be Shuri-Te. I was following Kogan's suit. I waa attempting to confuse and separate myself from those not in the know, like Kogan. ;) (j/k of course)

I think all of us traditional Okinawan karate people are use to terms like "you put foot here", "same, same" or "no, no too much hand". That's the way most good Okinawan Shinshii teach, they rarely use Hogen or even Japanese terminology. They try and convey the message in a way the student can understand it the best. Like Shorinryuu said, he sees a lot of ti techs in Kobayashi (I agree we did do a lot of PP strikes and grappling even ukemi), but they were just explained in a way the student can understand. That's always the sign of a great teacher.

If an advanced student can't explain what it is they do in simple terminology, then that says something about the instructors ability to convey the message. As you have seen from Mr. Kogan's post he was finally able to do that, but in a way that was very cryptic to those unfamiliar with such terms. Luckily I understand some Hogen, like "nami-tsuryose", "ikken hisatsu" and especially "umuiri". I wonder if Kogan-san has good "umuiri", or if he is just doing what he is told without personalizing it?

Good topic and nice site. Yuchoku Higa was an awesome shinshii and Kobayashi on the whole is a very "tight" style.

Bryan Cyr

TonyU
30th June 2005, 21:50
...and Kobayashi on the whole is a very "tight" style.

Bryan Cyr
Thank you. I tend to think so. :)
Unless of course you menat by "tight" as sholder locked or usesless as it has been previoulsy described.

Timothy.G.B.
30th June 2005, 22:02
Shook Ya:

Thanks for your informative reply!

Two more questions, if I might ask,

1) I was wondering who taught you that itten tsuki is a foreknuckle punch? And did they also teach you about ni-ten tsuki and san-ten tsuki and what the differences are between the three?

and

2) You mentioned that Higa Yuchoku Sensei was an "awesome shinshi" and so I was wondering when you trained with him and what was it like?

Okay, so maybe that is more than two questions :)

Tim

Tatsu
30th June 2005, 22:34
I never trained with Higa, just heard he was awesome. Wasn't he? Are you being facetious?

No one taught me that itten tsuki was ippon ken or phoenix eye fist, I just know what it is, and in Matsumura Seito we do use it for select strikes. It can also refer to the center of your ki, or placing all of your ki into a tsuki. There are countless terms for those strikes, but the formation and application are pretty universal in many of the Asian and "assassin" based arts of the M.E. (Janna for example). Ni-ten and San-ten? Never heard of them. We use the middle knuckle single point fist as a replacement strike to the axial nerve, floating ribs and other torso targets, instead of the normal fist.

BTW I used the term "ikken hisatsu" when I meant "uchichiesu- the one decisive strike".

Good questions, and keep Okinawan karate simple and real.... Peace.

Bryan Cyr

Tatsu
30th June 2005, 22:42
Thank you. I tend to think so. :)
Unless of course you menat by "tight" as sholder locked or usesless as it has been previoulsy described.

No, no not at all. I meant tight as in the b-boy vernacular of "fresh" or "dope", hahaha! It's a very good style, just ask Mike Stone! I have the utmost respect for it as a good karate style, for real!

Peace.

Bryan Cyr

TonyU
30th June 2005, 22:59
No, no not at all. I meant tight as in the b-boy vernacular of "fresh" or "dope", hahaha! It's a very good style, just ask Mike Stone! I have the utmost respect for it as a good karate style, for real!

Peace.

Bryan Cyr
I'm being facetious as well.
I really enjoy your discussions here. I am one, that even though I've been training in Shorin Ryu for a long time ( over 20 years), I'm not up on all the more detailed terminology.

Timothy.G.B.
1st July 2005, 07:13
Shook Ya:

It did seem a little odd to me that you would have trained with Higa Sensei, but the way your post read it sounded like you had first hand experience with learning from Higa Sensei.

Your post didn't say you "heard" that he was awesome, you said that he "was" awesome and so that was the reason for my query.

As for whether or not he really "was" awesome, I can't say as I never knew him, nor did I ever train with him. I understand that he was (and still is) one of the most well-respected teachers on Okinawa, and one of only a handful of teachers who actually knew and taught Ti.

Tim

Tatsu
2nd July 2005, 03:30
Shook Ya:

It did seem a little odd to me that you would have trained with Higa Sensei, but the way your post read it sounded like you had first hand experience with learning from Higa Sensei.

Your post didn't say you "heard" that he was awesome, you said that he "was" awesome and so that was the reason for my query.

As for whether or not he really "was" awesome, I can't say as I never knew him, nor did I ever train with him. I understand that he was (and still is) one of the most well-respected teachers on Okinawa, and one of only a handful of teachers who actually knew and taught Ti.

Tim

Sorry I worded it that way. I think that Ti is inherent to any good Okinawan ryu, so I don't know about that handful thing. Anyway how could anyone know for sure who knew or didn't know what when it comes to Okinawan karate? Hohan Soken seemed to imply that when he got back from Argentina everything calling itself karate was another beast altogether.

Yepper.

TonyU: Thanks and have a great week!

johnst_nhb
2nd July 2005, 18:58
Ti is "inherent" in a few ryu, but not all. The actual practice of Ti is sometimes quite a bit different than what we commonly see on Okinawa as karate.

Brian, you state that Ti is seen in any good Okinawan ryu, I am wondering what your exposure is to get you to this conclusion. What do you consider a "bad" ryu? I am not being confrontational, I just want to understand where you are coming from and what research you have done to come to this conclusion. Have you observed this in dojos on Okinawa?

Thanks in advance,

j

Tatsu
2nd July 2005, 23:20
Ti is "inherent" in a few ryu, but not all. The actual practice of Ti is sometimes quite a bit different than what we commonly see on Okinawa as karate.

Brian, you state that Ti is seen in any good Okinawan ryu, I am wondering what your exposure is to get you to this conclusion. What do you consider a "bad" ryu? I am not being confrontational, I just want to understand where you are coming from and what research you have done to come to this conclusion. Have you observed this in dojos on Okinawa?

Thanks in advance,

j

It's BrYan with a "Y", Jon.

No, just in many karate dojo, Okinawan or otherwise. I did observe a situation in an Okinawan Meibukan Goju dojo where the sensei was beating the crap out of his students and taking pleasure in it. If that's not a bad dojo then I don't know what is. So what is a bad Ryu? One where lower ranks are used as beat-up dummies, and little practical karate is taught at all , or one where the claim is that what they teach you will make you a better fighter. That's probably 98% of the schools out there.

I think you are being confrontational, just because you said it. You do seito? Who is your instructor? I bet he was a student of Lindsey, and in fact I bet you have some affiliation to Fred Ettish, the main contributor to all the guff over the ineffectiveness of Soken's karate (and karate in general). That's a good example of one individual doing Hope Ryu, Ti training or not.

What is my main "exposure"? Ronald Lindsey who I have been training with for many years now, who is one of the few seito guys on the planet who has the knowledge and skill to use his "Ti" in real life. Is that good enough? I've also witnessed Matsubayashi classes, in fact did the style for almost a year, until I couldn't stand it anymore, Shorinkan instruction, Seibukan and so on. They all have their take on "ti" and its importance in training.

Hope you understand what I'm saying.

Bryan Cyr

Timothy.G.B.
3rd July 2005, 01:01
Shook Ya:

You said that you believe that Ti is inherent in any good Okinawan ryu. If this is truly what you believe then I wonder if you and I may be talking about different things in this discussion of Ti.

In my observations there are Okinawan styles and practitioners who train very hard and are very good at what they do. I have only ever come across one teacher who teaches Ti and according to him there are only maybe 3 or 4 others in OKinawa who know Ti and they may or may not be teaching it.

Having said that, if you say you are learning Ti, who am I to argue?

Best regards,
Tim

Daniel Kogan
3rd July 2005, 01:15
Hope you understand what I'm saying.

Bryan Cyr



Not sure I do understand. Kind of hard to make out what your point is between your ranting and your babbling.

Let's see if I can parse what your point is, you claim to have trained with Lindsey, who you claim can really use his 'Ti'. Great I guess, not sure what our point is, but fine, I'll give you that one because you say so and frankly I couldn’t care since it in no way affects me.

Next point, you claim to have been in a Meibukan dojo, not sure what this has to do with anything on this thread but I take it you didn't like. Its unclear from your rant if you expected to see "Ti" trained in a Meibukan dojo or not, but if you did I suspect your were disappointed, as they don't train or understand Ti.

Next point, didn't get your point about your inability to last more than a year in Matsubayashi, was it your short coming or theirs that prevented you from learning the style?

As for your assumptions about John's lineage you might just want to ask him, as he did to you, rather than getting you knickers in a knot about what some guy may or may not have said about Soken's Karate. (where did that come from any way...have you got issues with this Fred guy?) Can you explain how what Fred might have said even affects your training or the original topic of this thread?

But hey just keep ranting I'm sure you are making your teacher proud. Guchibushi, every dojo has at least one.

BTW, as for deliberately misspelling John’s name, how old are you anyway?

wsteigner
3rd July 2005, 02:50
Hi Bryan Cyr; I dont quite understand where your going with your last few post. I would guess that you saw Ikemiyagi Sensei of the Meibukan on TV
training with Wade C. [forgot his last name sorry] I would not base seeing that short clip and said Goju Ryu is a bad ryu ha, and is it my understanding
that 98% of the Ryu ha on Okinawa is bad or is that 98% covering all but these Seito dojo you speak about. I also don`t understand if you have trained on Okinawa with an Okinawan Sensei in an Okinawan Ryu Ha, not that has anything to do with how good or bad your karate may be.You kind of sit on the fence with that in your posts" Higa Sensei was Awesome"but then say you never saw him in person, see what i mean. You then kind of got in a contest about who knows the most Hogen and that those who speak it are trying to one up others by using it when explaining what they are teaching which is what you ask for i think.So yes there is more than afew of us who don`t understand. I see some of the Ti that Kogan Sensei speaks to in the Goju Ryu i learn at the Jinbukan Dojo of Kanei Katsuyoshi Sensei ,Chiban Okinawa, I see Ti in the Isshinryu i learn from Shimabuku Tatsuo Sensei Agena
Okinawan,I see Ti in the Wado ryu i learn from Sakura Kazuo in Iwakuni Japan.
I also think 98% of the Ryu Ha are good with only a few bad apples in the mix.
thank you
bill steigner
Jinbukai

Tatsu
3rd July 2005, 04:32
Hi Bryan Cyr; I dont quite understand where your going with your last few post. I would guess that you saw Ikemiyagi Sensei of the Meibukan on TV
training with Wade C. [forgot his last name sorry] I would not base seeing that short clip and said Goju Ryu is a bad ryu ha, and is it my understanding
that 98% of the Ryu ha on Okinawa is bad or is that 98% covering all but these Seito dojo you speak about. I also don`t understand if you have trained on Okinawa with an Okinawan Sensei in an Okinawan Ryu Ha, not that has anything to do with how good or bad your karate may be.You kind of sit on the fence with that in your posts" Higa Sensei was Awesome"but then say you never saw him in person, see what i mean. You then kind of got in a contest about who knows the most Hogen and that those who speak it are trying to one up others by using it when explaining what they are teaching which is what you ask for i think.So yes there is more than afew of us who don`t understand. I see some of the Ti that Kogan Sensei speaks to in the Goju Ryu i learn at the Jinbukan Dojo of Kanei Katsuyoshi Sensei ,Chiban Okinawa, I see Ti in the Isshinryu i learn from Shimabuku Tatsuo Sensei Agena
Okinawan,I see Ti in the Wado ryu i learn from Sakura Kazuo in Iwakuni Japan.
I also think 98% of the Ryu Ha are good with only a few bad apples in the mix.
thank you
bill steigner
Jinbukai

Well we definitely disagree about the percentages. Most karate just plain sucks. Most karate-ka suck. Most MAs are a joke (read money-making $$$$) and the majority of MAs schools out there are karate dojo. Now redo your math.

I never said that Goju was a bad ryu. I said from what I saw of the Meibukan training on Okinawa, that that ryuHA looked WACK. Is that the norm in Goju? If so then it sucks as a style, IMO. You got me Steigner-San?

From the folks I've trained with which includes numerous Kyokushinkai-ka, Higaonna Goju-ka, Shito-ka, Shotokan-ka, Isshin-ka, Shorin-ka, TSDoers, Judo-ka, Kenpo-ka every style imaginable style, I can say that most are mediocre regardless of style and many are just plain weak. Some are good. Very few though. So if you are a normal practitioner what vantage point are you looking at or coming from? Exactly.

BTW, you've seen Ti in your Wado Ryu training? Cool. You sure it ain't Ju-Jutsu stuff? I always felt that Wado used JJ to fill in the Ti gaps. I guess I was wrong in this instance.

I had said earlier that I thought most good Okinawan style schools use ti and ti principles. John "call me Seito but I'm really TKD" Stebbins asked me to clarify what experience or research I've had to substantiate my claims. He doesn't know that I know who he is and more about Kuda than he could even imagine. Even his opinion of him. My sensei was the PRESIDENT of his wroldwide organization. Think about it now. Ex-friggin'-actly. Let's leave it at that.

Look around you is what I should have said. Most people are clueless and beyond that very normal at their best. They have problems comprehending straigthforward words and instead want to be dazzled with conjecture and lies done in a diplomatic tone. They don't need proof from "this guy" because he is a known quantity with supposed clout (take someone like Trias, Bush, Clinton or even Oyama for example), but when a person that is unknown says some reasonable OPINIONS based on his/her life experince it has to justified? C'mon now. Respect is unearned not earned, fool.

You seem to think I'm a dunce, or some troll or something. You're taking what I said as a personal affront. I don't know who or WTF you are so why would I want to dismiss you or your style? If some guy can come on here and claim that he knows ti and that a Matsumra Seito guy who trains under a real sensei who can explain and DO what it is he teaches may not know what he is talking about, and puts it in a condascending tone, then it's time for checkmate, mate. You hear me?

Look my opinion is just as valid as anyone else's on any of these sites. I've done some form of Shorin for a couple of decades now. I train under one of the preeminent Okinawan stylists in the world. If you don't know who he is or think that he isn't anything because he isn't Okinawan or Japanese (the latter means nil actually) then you are sadly mistaken. As a yudansha my opinion needs to be respected and as a fellow Shorin-ka with the guy who originally started this thread, he owes me that much.

I know my karate is real. It seems like some of you others are questioning yourselves without me implicating a damn body. Step off, please.

Reread stuff. You know RIF. I never said I understood a lot of Hogen, dude, I said why not just explain it dammit if you really know it so well. He started with the friggin' vernacular so I said great here are some more terms for you, Mr. Elite. He didn't know how to say it in English so I showed him how easy it was.

Oh and about Higa Sensei, how about never mind. I take back what I said I don't know if he was good or bad as ateacher. I heard from several high ranking sensei that he was alright. How about that.

I just wanted to know how he trained and how similar it was to my training in Okinawan karate. I was looking for common ground, not a point of difference. I guess all his years of MAs training, and yours too, just didn't fine tune his intuition enough, otherwise he would have wanted to meet and greet not be confrontational. Obviously he thinks I won't or can't understand his ti training from his posts but he is very wrong and he should know that a superiority complex can work both ways. Oh yes it can.

Now go reread my posts, and the order of things again. You are misinterpreting my words. Comprehension is a good thing. You are making a conflict where there was none.

Bryan Cyr, Nidan, Kokusai Shuri-Te Karate/Kobujutsu Rengo Kai

Timothy.G.B.
3rd July 2005, 06:14
Shook Ya:

You win!!

Lindsey Sensei is the best and you know more than all of us.

Daniel Kogan
3rd July 2005, 06:35
<snip> Respect is unearned not earned, fool. <snip>

<snip> As a yudansha my opinion needs to be respected <snip>.



As a yudansha your opinion is worth what you as a person are worth and a cent more. Interesting that you would feel respect is owed to you. Respect is earned, so keep working on it. Who your teacher’s teacher might have been could be an interesting topic of conversation, but it doesn’t earn you any respect; but you knew that didn’t you? The way you lashed out at people on this thread who are also of Soken’s lineage shows that you don’t put much value on that, yet you invoke Soken’s name and that of Mr. Lindsey and feel that somehow respected is owed to you as a result; odd perspective, but to each his own.

You have a unique conversational style, a lot like a rabid dog in the way you turn on each person that comes to this thread. What did Mr. Steigner or Mr. Stebbins ever do to you?

Trying to impress people with your teacher’s ex-credentials is not the most convincing argument. Quite frankly I don’t care who your teacher is or was, or what title he lost or had taken away from him due to the never ending politics that have been unleashed on Okinawan Karate by the Soken legacy.

On the other hand, I suspect that your teacher would be very proud and touched by the high esteem you hold him in. BTW, are you Lindsey’s official spokes person, I think it is great to hear the way you have opened up and shared with the rest off us what you are really like, and by implication what he is like. I had never heard of your teacher until know, but I think I’m getting a good idea of who he is. I would encourage that you continue on your current tact so that through your words and action I can get a better feel for what Mr. Lindsey is like.

Bryan, since I know you won’t be able to help yourself, go ahead tell us once more how great you and Lindsey are, and then we’ll call it a day. One more for the road and then we can all move on, at least most of us will anyway, hopefully we can have a few days of dialogue on this forum prior to having another rabid troll infestation.

johnst_nhb
3rd July 2005, 21:55
Deleted because responses are pointless.

Bryan, have we met before? I certainly have never met you (that I know of) and I have never met Mr. Lindsey.

johnst_nhb
3rd July 2005, 22:26
Now it has all become clear. Shook Ya' used to post under the name Machimura and was banned a while back.

Reading some archive posts, it all makes sense.

Tatsu
3rd July 2005, 22:50
Now it has all become clear. Shook Ya' used to post under the name Machimura and was banned a while back.

Reading some archive posts, it all makes sense.

Whatever.

Let's make some things clear. I never posted lies about my training or what it is I do or don't know. I had some confrontations with people who wanted to dismiss the merits of good Okinawan karate training. Now that time has passed maybe they can rethink their positions, and I can reassess mine. My opnions on what is a good style (regardless of origin) haven't changed.

Goju Ryu or any other good Okinawan karate style has all my respect. I have seen quite a few good Goju Ryu practitioners and many not so good practitioners of Shorin ryu. It's all relative. That's just my perspective and I'll leave it at that.

John, regardless of what I said in the past regarding whatever lies people posted about me on here ("that I'm from WV, that my name is BrIan, that I'm some bald guy trying to break a board, that Lindsey Sensei does "Duck Style" karate"), I'm willing to forgive and forget. My opinion has always been real and very valid, even if my delivery needed some work.

I asked Kogan about his training to find commonalities, and then he posted like he was some high-and-mighty super karate-ka that would have a hard time explaining what his Ti training was like. I responded in a fair way and just gave him my take on his reply.

Don't worry about me posting on here with regularity. I saw an interesting post and I chimed in. From now on maybe I'll just browse and leave the masses and same-sames to do their thing as I either learn or laugh my a$$ off.

Peace

Bryan Cyr

Tatsu
3rd July 2005, 23:11
Dan,
I am not anyone's spokesperson. The opinions I express are my own. I am amazed to read that from typed words you can surmise my intent or tone. That is an extraordinary gift. Keep working at it though, because you are very off. My sensei says nothing wrong about anyone ever. He is very gracious and a complete gentleman, but that's him. I'm still young and full of piss and vinegar :).

Respect is UNEARNED, where I come from. I respect everyone equally until they prove me wrong, especially IN PERSON. Forget the net. We know the motives of most martial artists on the net is to sell a product. It seems to me that's what you're doing, and you seem to be trying to set yourself apart from other Okinawan stylists when you hem and haw concerning how exclusive your ti training is. You sound a little full of yourself, so stop with the redirect, because I ain't buying it, man.

I bet you're not a half-bad karate-ka. I do remember the video you were on by Tsunami Videos some years back. Very dramatic trailer, and I remember Onaga Sensei claiming that ti training was not kata training or something to that effect. News to me. It's all encompassed in good Okinawan karate training, and kata to the sensei I've trained under is the most important aspect of that training.

I never put down a true Matsumura Seito stylist, ever. I have never met Stebbins but I've trained with many who have. I definitely know more about him than he does of me. Yes, sir.

Look you can call me a rabid dog, or an irreverant miscreant or whatever played-out colloquialism you like, but know one thing, I do real karate and can see through all the pomp and circumstance. You answered my post in a condescending and stammering manner so I asked "why". You finally responded that neither me nor my sensei were anyone you ever heard of. That makes me question your knowledge even further, but whatever. You never heard of Ron Lindsey? Whatever, man. To each his own.

I really don't care who your sensei are either. It's not like Onaga is a well known Kobayashi guy. For all of Higa Sensei's dismissal of the other Kobayashi sensei (as told to Bishop) I've never, ever heard of his students doing anything significant in the MAs world. I only know of your style through a video trailer you guys posted on several forums years ago. Other than that you're just another kuhrahtty "sensei". That's okay though because the unknown quantity is to be feared more than the big man on campus, IMHO.

Bryan Cyr

Timothy.G.B.
4th July 2005, 00:06
Shook Ya:

The more you post the more I feel you embarrass yourself and your teacher and it seems as though you don't care a bit.

You have shown all of us your true colours and you cannot undo that. I fear too much time has already been spent entertaining your assertions and insults in a thread that was enjoyable for a small amount of time.

wsteigner
4th July 2005, 00:33
Bryan Cyr; For all your training you have missed or do not understand the 1st lesson in Okinawan Karate. Karate begins and ends with courtesy.
thank you
bill steigner
Jinbukai

dsomers
4th July 2005, 09:31
Mr. Cyr ,

I am sure Bill Sensei is Sempai to most of us here , he was probablly training longer than you have been alive . Bill has been training for over 40 years , & mostly in Okinawa . Unlike most people in the western world , he doesnt make a dime from karate , which is a shame , as he has invested much . He has a heart of gold , & shares w/ those of us that wish to learn that come w/ an open mind , & a good heart . I am saddened by the way you have spoken to my Sempai , & friend , Bill Steigner Sensei . You need to grow up , & learn some manners . If this is a repesentation of what you have learned from your teacher , it is not Karate . As the most important thing in Karate , is the development of a good heart . You sir , need more training .

johnst_nhb
4th July 2005, 16:24
Shook Ya:

The more you post the more I feel you embarrass yourself and your teacher and it seems as though you don't care a bit.

You have shown all of us your true colours and you cannot undo that. I fear too much time has already been spent entertaining your assertions and insults in a thread that was enjoyable for a small amount of time.

Yeah! This thread was enjoyable, its a shame that it went south. Oh well.

johnst_nhb
4th July 2005, 16:26
I have never met Stebbins but I've trained with many who have.

I seriously doubt that.

Tatsu
7th July 2005, 01:49
Bryan Cyr; For all your training you have missed or do not understand the 1st lesson in Okinawan Karate. Karate begins and ends with courtesy.
thank you
bill steigner
Jinbukai

Exactly the point I made earlier. Respect is a 2-way street, regardless of your age of supposed tenure in something.

The response from the Shinjinbukan guy was condascending. I guess he thought that the Shorin he did was more "traditional" than Matsumura ORTHODOX. Get real, and get off the high horses. I don't follow that Funakoshi dojo kun anyway. I do toudi jutsu!

I am not embarrassed, but whoever is being oblivious and unfair about this whole thing should be. You guys are trying to sell your product and I saw through it. Now go do some Ti training and chill...

Bryan Cyr

Timothy.G.B.
7th July 2005, 19:45
Shook Ya:

In all of your criticisms of others on this thread you yourself have not explained or described anything about your Ti training.

I started this thread with a link to some of what I am trying to learn and videos showing kata and little bits of Ti. If you are truly interested in finding common ground, then please describe and explain an example of your Ti training or post a link to where we can see what you are referring to. Then, we can actually begin a dialogue on Ti.

Robby Bray
8th July 2005, 03:58
Well said David.

Tatsu
11th July 2005, 23:49
Shook Ya:

In all of your criticisms of others on this thread you yourself have not explained or described anything about your Ti training.

I started this thread with a link to some of what I am trying to learn and videos showing kata and little bits of Ti. If you are truly interested in finding common ground, then please describe and explain an example of your Ti training or post a link to where we can see what you are referring to. Then, we can actually begin a dialogue on Ti.

Sounds good, but you never wanted dialogue in the first place, otherwise you would have responded in a more cordial manner. You are satisfied with what you do and I'm satisfied with what I do. Good luck to you, thanks for your time, God bless you and good night.

Here's a short link that's outdated and doesn't detail much:
http://web-hou.iapc.net/~kmap/styles/whitecrane.html


Bryan Cyr

Timothy.G.B.
13th July 2005, 17:50
Shook Ya:

When you decide to post something about your Ti training I will be interested in reading it.

Regards,
Tim

Shikiyanaka
17th July 2005, 16:08
Hi all,

the Shuri-Naha Dialect Dictionary" gives the following meaning for Tī (there are various possibilities):

[1] The whole arm from the (shoulder)joint to the fingertips. Also: the part beginning from the wrist (i.e. the hand). [although this seems kind of obvious, the following may be interesting:] The honorific term for it is nchi (その敬語は ンチ ) [maybe as in Naifanchi?!]

[2] A handle; a grip; a knob. A hilt, a haft. A handgrip.

[3] Ability [shuwan]. Art/technique [waza]. Art; means; way to do [jutsu]. Furthermore, grade; rank; level [dan]. Method; process; manner; way; means; technique [hōhō]. Tōdī [唐手]. The art of Kenpō. Example sentence: 1. Tī chikajun (To employ Tōdī. Also: To perform the techniques of Tōdī.)

And on Tōdī the dictionary says:

Tōdī: Also simply called Tī.


----------------------------

So, according to the dictionary the term Tī in its meaning forms nothing more than the Ryūkyūan pendant to the Chinese and Japanese terms for method, art, technique, ability etc. (i.e. jutsu, waza, hō, kata, wushu, quan, bujutsu etc.), and thus - from its meaning - it seems to be interchangeable with those (always considering the sociocultural background of Ryūkyū being influenced by, but yet in the end differing from, both of them; and additionally, the diminishing factor always to be considered for Ryūkyū in comparison to China and Japan).

It simply seems to be a question of semantics. The terminology evolved in Ryūkyū to denote a method of fighting is not analogous to the Japanese and Chinese ways of description (e.g. Quanfa, Bujutsu). It is rather a a description of their own, one time helping itself from Chinese, another time from the japanese side, according to the historical context.

One the one hand, Bujutsu 武術 is thought of as the classical martial arts of Japan, and on the other hand Budō 武道 as to be the more modern and spiritual enhanced disciplin. The Japanese prefix Bu 武, however, is also found in the Chinese term Wushù 武術, being written with exactly the same ideograms as Bujutsu, however nowadays in the simplified form 武术 (here 术 being a radical of 術 ).

One more overlapping example is Bīngfă, found in Sūn zi Bīngfă 孫子兵法 (Sun Tsu’s military strategies and tactics). Bīngfă 兵法 in Japanese is pronounced Heihō, a term nowadays mostly exclusively used in connection with Japanese martial arts.

But it is true that neither 武 in its Chinese reading Wu nor in the Japanese reading Bu have been employed - historically speaking - in Okinawa, or Ryūkyū respectively, in order to label a method of fighting (there are exceptions to this rule; for example, there was a dance called Bubu 武舞, i.e. Dance of the Soldiers, in which six soldiers, dressed in wide, black and white striped garments, a golden wreath upon their heads, were fencing against each other with white sticks to the beat of the music.). This is also true for jutsu, kata, waza etc.

This is simply due to the confusing mix of using native, Chinese and Japanese words.

So they used the Okinawan term dīgua 手小, literally meaning "small hand." The dictionary entry tells us that Tī denotes a kinfd of method, art, etc. The suffix –gua, literally meaning small, is only there to tell us that Tī is used as a "nickname" (for a fighting method).
Tī is found in the names of four of the Gōjū-ryū Kata (see e.g. Nakamoto Yū’ichi) [the Kata are Sēsan, Sēpai, Sansērū, and Sūpārinpē. Note the corrupted Chinese pronunciation.)
So maybe one original Chinese meaning was "technique" (McCarthy, Bubishi: p. 166) and also "method" (Ibid., see the 48 techniques).

Althoug Tī (手; ディー ) is used as the term for a martial art of Ryūkyū, it here simply means "method of fighting" or "martial skill." In consequence it would be appropriate to put any prefix before the Tī in order to further clear up what method or skill is talked about, for example.

- Dī 手: early native "method" of Ryūkyū
- Tōdī 唐手: Chinese or foreign method
- Uchinādī (jp: Okinawa-te) 沖縄手: Okinawan method
- Nafadī (jp: Naha-te) 那覇手: Naha method
- Suidī (jp: Shuri-te) 首里手: Shuri method
- Tumaidī (jp: Tomari-te) 泊手: Tomari method

Also in this context: was Tī 手 an exclusive weaponless method? The traditions of Chatan Yara or Sakugawa Tōdī Kanga prove this is wrong.

Look at:
Chikin Sunakachi nu Uēku-dī 津堅沙掛けのウエーク手, "the Chikin oar methods of throwing sand." Here Tī clearly denotes and is used in the meaning of "method". [Sunakachi is one of the mentioned terms, which in Japanese would rather have been called Metsubushi o kuwasu 目潰しを食わす. Thus the terminology is differing, but not the meaning]

Asa side note: when the term Tōdī 唐手 was changed to Karate 空手, it was translated as "empty hand." At that moment, Tī 手 - the general term for armed an unarmed fighting methods in Ryūkyū – has been substituted by the literal Japanese meaning of "hand". With this translation and at the same time emptying of sense, the historically proven reference to the weapons techniques has been eliminated; this was retroactively understood for Karate, and soetimes as well for Tī and Tōdī.

Even though Tī 手 is a term of Ryūkyū, which had been long used instead of the usual Chinese or Japanese terms, it is possible to make comparisons. After all, I think Tī 手 in terms of semantic is comparable to he japanese Jutsu 術 (which also doesn't mean that much at all, denoting only some certain technical skill). In some cases the comparison to the Japanese ryū 流 (style)or the Chinese quán 拳 (boxing, pugilism) seems obvious. Hō 法 (method, priciple, model) is one more possibility. In the end and in this connection it would be also absolutely possible, to equate Tī 手 with Kata 型 (template, model) or Kata 形 (form).

After the Meiji-restoration, Japanese influence dominated in Okinawa. With this (Japanization and de-Sinization, and with many Okinawans needed to go to mainland Japan for economic reasons) the natural adoption of budō-spezific Japanese terms took place, continuing far into the 20th century. Terms like Karate-jutsu 空手術, Kobudō 古武道 etc. came in use, or the concept of Goshin-jutsu was adopted widely on everything in connection with Karate (or Tī ), completely forgetting the cultural part of the tradition (which seems to have much bigger than the martial component in times of Ryūkyū kingdom!), the styles took names like Tawada-ryū 多和田流; Gōjū-ryū 剛柔流 etc., in lieu of the old term Tī (as in Uchinādī, Nafadī etc.)

So Ti 手, in my opinion, may has to be understood as an equivalent to the following terms, which have been employed likewise in the Japanese as in the Chinese language (in brackets):

- Jutsu 術 (shù): art; means; way; trick. Example: Bujutsu 武術 (Wushù 武术 )
- Ryū 流 (liú): stile. Example: Shōrin-ryū 松林流
- Ken 拳 (quán): fist, style, pugilism, boxing. Example: Taikyokuken 太極拳 (Tàijíquán)
- Hō 法 (fă ): Method, princople, model, system. Example: Kenpō 拳法 (Quánfa)
- Kata 型 (Xíng): modell, template, type.
- Kata 形 (Xíng): form, style.

Finally, there have been many terms used for methods of fighting or certain concepts. The choice of the term seems not to have been following a narrow and fixed path, which maybe seen in the first schriftliche metion of Karate in written form in the West [Seiji Noma], for the native Okinawan martial art was only simply called te-kobushi 手拳 (Kobushi is the Japanese reading of the Chinese quán 拳 in the meaning of "fist"). As this was experienced by the author sometimes between 1905 and 1907 or so, this term would need to be put in consideration, as at that time Karate was usually called Tōdī by most authors, and the styles were divided into Shōrei-ryū and Shōrin-ryū, which were further divided as the methods (!!!) mainly employed in Naha, Shuri, and Tomari.

Timothy.G.B.
17th July 2005, 23:23
Shikiyanaka:

Thanks for your post on the different meanings of the term Ti.

What your post points out is the fact that language is not transparent. Words like Ti are not self-evident and the context of the word is as least as mportant as the word itself, especially in a "high context" culture such as Okinawa. An example that is often used in English is the word "bark', where "bark of the dog" and "bark of the tree" are far removed from each other in their meaning, although spelling and pronunciation of the word "bark" are identical in both phrases.

When we use the term Ti in our school, we refer to a fighting philosophy, a specific way of thinking about our karate, that is woven through every kata. every kihon exercise, our warm-up and cool-down, and in the technique and footwork that we train so that everything falls in line with the particular way of thinking. The only way you know whether or not something makes sense is if you (meaning those who train in our school) understand Ti.

It is near impossible to explain what I might mean by Ti out of the context of actual training and that is why I included the link to what we practice...or least small taste of what we practice.

The notion of Ti may be an Okinawan one, but I would venture to say that there are likely similar terms in Chinese Martial arts. It would be interesting to hear form someone who is a Chinese Martial artist to hear what they think. I am just speculating. Check out this link

http://www.yongchunbaihechuen.com/videos.html (second clip in the list)

to a White Crane master talking about a concept in their system. Even if a person doesn't speak a word of Chinese one can still understand what his point is if there is a shared context for understanding! :)

Once again, thanks for your post. I enjoyed reading it.

Regards,
Tim

Shikiyanaka
18th July 2005, 16:19
Thanks for the link; also I didn't understand a word the old master is saying (apart from hehehe) they have some nice pics etc: It's Fang Qiniang! (http://www.yongchunbaihechuen.com/photos/IMG_3765.jpg) :)

Trevor Johnson
18th July 2005, 17:14
Just got the Bubishi translation/annotation by Patrick McCarthy. Haven't really sat down and formally read it yet, but it looks like it covers a lot of that in the introductions and such. Various of the translations and characters for pressure point striking, etc, are among the things I've read.

From what I've read of it so far, I love the book.

Timothy.G.B.
18th July 2005, 17:22
Hi Trevor:

You wrote that Patrick McCarthy "covers a lot of that in the intro...."

I don't know which "that" you are referring to in your post :) Can you expand a bit. Sorry, maybe I'm just not awake yet!

Tim

Trevor Johnson
18th July 2005, 19:31
The notion of Ti may be an Okinawan one, but I would venture to say that there are likely similar terms in Chinese Martial arts. It would be interesting to hear form someone who is a Chinese Martial artist to hear what they think. I am just speculating. Check out this link


Sorry, was responding to this post.

Timothy.G.B.
18th July 2005, 20:44
Thanks Trevor! That makes sense :)

Tim

Doug Daulton
13th August 2005, 07:26
Mr. Cyr,

I am troubled to see you've fallen back into your old trolling habits. So, consider yourself warned. I've shown no patience for this in the past, I'll show none going forward.

Show a little respect. Stay on point and on topic. Avoid name-calling. Or, you will be banned.

Regards,

Doug Daulton
13th August 2005, 07:28
Dan and Mario ... good to see you both here. Sorry I've been such a stranger. I hope to rectify that in the coming months. :)

Tim ... thanks for starting this thread and welcome to the OMA Forums.

Regards,

Tatsu
15th August 2005, 04:56
Mr. Cyr,

I am troubled to see you've fallen back into your old trolling habits. So, consider yourself warned. I've shown no patience for this in the past, I'll show none going forward.

Show a little respect. Stay on point and on topic. Avoid name-calling. Or, you will be banned.

Regards,

I have never been a "troller". I often over react to personal affronts and presumptuous behavior, but I post neither to incite an argument nor create turmoil. Respect is a two-way street and if a fellow Shorin Ryu practitioner wants to treat another Shorin BB in a condascending manner he may not get the "kill them with kindness" response he expects. They are just all opinions after all, especially when it comes to MAs. Real tough guys should be able to shake off words IMO.

I haven't posted for many weeks now and will not (except for this reply). If I'm not entitiled to a valid, informed and educated opinion on here them I'll just sit back, browse and learn from the karate-ka on here. Relax, sir, and reevaluate the past and present. Read my posts again and the posts which precede my responses. Don't let the "halo effect" or others assumptions of who they think I am or what they think I can do cloud your judgement.

I'll leave it at that and say thanks for not kicking me to the curb. The truth is that even with all the personal attacks and lies spread on this site previously (about me), I do have real karate and MAs knowledge to offer. Too bad I can't say a thing though because when it comes to forums my sensei has pretty much disallowed anymore "kuhrotty" talk on my part.

"Oh JOYYYY!" the crowd yells...



Love, peace and chicken grease!

Bryan Cyr

twayman
15th August 2005, 22:30
Just got the Bubishi translation/annotation by Patrick McCarthy. Haven't really sat down and formally read it yet, but it looks like it covers a lot of that in the introductions and such. Various of the translations and characters for pressure point striking, etc, are among the things I've read.

From what I've read of it so far, I love the book.

Trevor,

I have been reading Bubishi also, only a few pages into it so far... One good thing is if Mr. McCarthy is involved it's gott'a be good.

Ernest
4th September 2005, 17:11
Estimado Amigos y Estimado Daniel-chan,

Has the fighting stopped? I was getting a feeling that there was no love out there in karate land. Bueno, to move on and since this is only my second post and English is not my native language, please bear with me. When I started the practice of the Okinawan martial arts (and having studied Japanese - what do they say, "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing!") I thought all these smart Okinawans were just simply mispronouncing their arts - e.g., shorin-ryu (pronounced shorin-dew), karate (pronounced as kara-tea). There was even signs denoting that they taught karatejutsu instead of karatedoh.

When I left the "Rock" and met many others pronouncing their own styles, how should I say, "wrongly." They were saying isshin-do (dew), shorin-do, goju-do, etc. Wow, sez I, how can all these guys get it sooo wrong or (heaven forbid) was I, who knew a lot (after all I was a black belt and could kill with just a look or a touch - well, anyway, that is what I read), could possibly be wrong -- nahhh. Not me but just in case I needed to check this out - but, since my Japanese was terrible and my hogen non existent - who could I talk to and/or where could I hire/rent a translator?

At the USO club on Kadena, was a small Okinawan who came to supervise the teaching of his style - the little guy was great and to boot, he spoke fluent Spanish. What a deal - he explained the readings to me and the light bulb in my cabeza lit up - about 2 watts worth. Shorin-ryu was indeed pronounced shorin-dew... the ryu sound is pronounced as dew as in Dew-kyu (ryukyu). Karate was pronounced as kara-tea - tea or 'ti' being the Uchinan influence.

Getting back to the original thoughts/discussion - nothing during the early 1960s was ever said of what was 'ti' ... many people spoke of 'ti' but many more would avoid talking about it. Was it because it was too difficult to explain it in a foreign language, was it because you (the person asking) was not ready for an explanation or they, the practitioners, did not really know.

Of the latter, very few, if anyone, would ever ask about your teacher's teacher. Few would even ask about their style and where it came from. Matsumura - who is he and is he important and if he is how does that relate to me? People just didn't ask those types of questions. Americans training during that period of time were military people. You do and don't ask. Even the Okinawans had the same mentality - train and keep your mouth shut, if Sensei wants you to learn history or this or that, Sensei will tell you.

Hence, it was those nosey Americans that wanted to know who Matsumura was and what really irked a lot of people, these Americans would then write it down! Whoa, the Okinawans were not, how you say, happy campers. Why were Americans asking about who these dead people were and how they were related to what they were doing today. Many, many Okinawans did not know the history of their own style let alone what or why they did this particular technique. During that period of time, an Okinawan would not dare ask their teacher what this or that meant. It was just simply not done. But, ahh the Americans, they had no idea of what courtesy was (after all most Americans called their teacher "papa-san or honcho"). Plus, Americans paid more in tuition. Monthly tuition was $5.00 a month for training... the Okinawans paid between $2 and $2.50. I found that out by accident one day and asked (I'm nosey). Sensei said it was twice as hard to teach Americans so it made sense to charge them twice as much. Whoa, that made sense to me and I dropped the subject -- even then the Americans pronounced the kata the American way - kata one, kata two, kata three and so on. It was a known fact that Americans could not relate to and/or say naihanchi shodan, naihanchi nidan, etc.

One day, in the early 60's I once again asked an Okinawa is there a difference between karate and ti. The look I got was a puzzle and the answer was a bigger puzzle he said that Okinawan people...

Excuse me, I am in trouble, the little woman sez I didn't do the dishes... got to run.

Como Seimpre,

Ernesto

Trevor Johnson
4th September 2005, 21:56
Trevor,

I have been reading Bubishi also, only a few pages into it so far... One good thing is if Mr. McCarthy is involved it's gott'a be good.
It's one of those books you have to keep coming back to. Reading it through's only good the first time, after that it's more delving into specific passages, drawings, etc. I'm leaving the herbiary alone, though. Having been through it, I'm not sure it would be terribly useful to me atm...

Shikiyanaka
6th September 2005, 17:24
One day, in the early 60's I once again asked an Okinawa is there a difference between karate and ti. The look I got was a puzzle and the answer was a bigger puzzle he said that Okinawan people...

Ernest-san, may I ask what he did say?

Trevor Johnson
6th September 2005, 21:30
That he had to do the dishes and had to run? :) Perfect answer by me!

Tatsu
7th September 2005, 00:07
Thank you so much sir. Your article with Soken O'Sensei is one of the most inspirational, and informative MAs interviews ever. I look forward to reading more from you on here. Westerners are stubborn and always want to know why, and when you tell them they don't believe you! Go figure.

Bryan Cyr


Estimado Amigos y Estimado Daniel-chan,

Has the fighting stopped? I was getting a feeling that there was no love out there in karate land. Bueno, to move on and since this is only my second post and English is not my native language, please bear with me. When I started the practice of the Okinawan martial arts (and having studied Japanese - what do they say, "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing!") I thought all these smart Okinawans were just simply mispronouncing their arts - e.g., shorin-ryu (pronounced shorin-dew), karate (pronounced as kara-tea). There was even signs denoting that they taught karatejutsu instead of karatedoh.

When I left the "Rock" and met many others pronouncing their own styles, how should I say, "wrongly." They were saying isshin-do (dew), shorin-do, goju-do, etc. Wow, sez I, how can all these guys get it sooo wrong or (heaven forbid) was I, who knew a lot (after all I was a black belt and could kill with just a look or a touch - well, anyway, that is what I read), could possibly be wrong -- nahhh. Not me but just in case I needed to check this out - but, since my Japanese was terrible and my hogen non existent - who could I talk to and/or where could I hire/rent a translator?

At the USO club on Kadena, was a small Okinawan who came to supervise the teaching of his style - the little guy was great and to boot, he spoke fluent Spanish. What a deal - he explained the readings to me and the light bulb in my cabeza lit up - about 2 watts worth. Shorin-ryu was indeed pronounced shorin-dew... the ryu sound is pronounced as dew as in Dew-kyu (ryukyu). Karate was pronounced as kara-tea - tea or 'ti' being the Uchinan influence.

Getting back to the original thoughts/discussion - nothing during the early 1960s was ever said of what was 'ti' ... many people spoke of 'ti' but many more would avoid talking about it. Was it because it was too difficult to explain it in a foreign language, was it because you (the person asking) was not ready for an explanation or they, the practitioners, did not really know.

Of the latter, very few, if anyone, would ever ask about your teacher's teacher. Few would even ask about their style and where it came from. Matsumura - who is he and is he important and if he is how does that relate to me? People just didn't ask those types of questions. Americans training during that period of time were military people. You do and don't ask. Even the Okinawans had the same mentality - train and keep your mouth shut, if Sensei wants you to learn history or this or that, Sensei will tell you.

Hence, it was those nosey Americans that wanted to know who Matsumura was and what really irked a lot of people, these Americans would then write it down! Whoa, the Okinawans were not, how you say, happy campers. Why were Americans asking about who these dead people were and how they were related to what they were doing today. Many, many Okinawans did not know the history of their own style let alone what or why they did this particular technique. During that period of time, an Okinawan would not dare ask their teacher what this or that meant. It was just simply not done. But, ahh the Americans, they had no idea of what courtesy was (after all most Americans called their teacher "papa-san or honcho"). Plus, Americans paid more in tuition. Monthly tuition was $5.00 a month for training... the Okinawans paid between $2 and $2.50. I found that out by accident one day and asked (I'm nosey). Sensei said it was twice as hard to teach Americans so it made sense to charge them twice as much. Whoa, that made sense to me and I dropped the subject -- even then the Americans pronounced the kata the American way - kata one, kata two, kata three and so on. It was a known fact that Americans could not relate to and/or say naihanchi shodan, naihanchi nidan, etc.

One day, in the early 60's I once again asked an Okinawa is there a difference between karate and ti. The look I got was a puzzle and the answer was a bigger puzzle he said that Okinawan people...

Excuse me, I am in trouble, the little woman sez I didn't do the dishes... got to run.

Como Seimpre,

Ernesto

Timothy.G.B.
8th September 2005, 18:21
Estrada Sensei:

Thank you for your post.

I was lucky enough to make your acquaintance several years ago when you visited Daniel Kogan Sensei, at the Shinjinbukan Vancouver dojo.

I have enjoyed your articles very much over the years and we are fortunate to have you share your thoughts on the subject of Ti in this forum.

Sincerely yours,
Tim Black

GojuMaster
9th September 2005, 01:54
Bryan,

You do understand that even if you do have some good things to say, that by being so rude, people are likely to dismiss 100% of what you have to say.

Facts and perception are opposite sides of the same coin.

Without the ability to get your information out there in a decent, polite manner, you might as well just keep your information (opinion or otherwise) to yourself.

Best Regards,

Russ Smith



Well we definitely disagree about the percentages. Most karate just plain sucks. Most karate-ka suck. Most MAs are a joke (read money-making $$$$) and the majority of MAs schools out there are karate dojo. Now redo your math.

I never said that Goju was a bad ryu. I said from what I saw of the Meibukan training on Okinawa, that that ryuHA looked WACK. Is that the norm in Goju? If so then it sucks as a style, IMO. You got me Steigner-San?

From the folks I've trained with which includes numerous Kyokushinkai-ka, Higaonna Goju-ka, Shito-ka, Shotokan-ka, Isshin-ka, Shorin-ka, TSDoers, Judo-ka, Kenpo-ka every style imaginable style, I can say that most are mediocre regardless of style and many are just plain weak. Some are good. Very few though. So if you are a normal practitioner what vantage point are you looking at or coming from? Exactly.

BTW, you've seen Ti in your Wado Ryu training? Cool. You sure it ain't Ju-Jutsu stuff? I always felt that Wado used JJ to fill in the Ti gaps. I guess I was wrong in this instance.

I had said earlier that I thought most good Okinawan style schools use ti and ti principles. John "call me Seito but I'm really TKD" Stebbins asked me to clarify what experience or research I've had to substantiate my claims. He doesn't know that I know who he is and more about Kuda than he could even imagine. Even his opinion of him. My sensei was the PRESIDENT of his wroldwide organization. Think about it now. Ex-friggin'-actly. Let's leave it at that.

Look around you is what I should have said. Most people are clueless and beyond that very normal at their best. They have problems comprehending straigthforward words and instead want to be dazzled with conjecture and lies done in a diplomatic tone. They don't need proof from "this guy" because he is a known quantity with supposed clout (take someone like Trias, Bush, Clinton or even Oyama for example), but when a person that is unknown says some reasonable OPINIONS based on his/her life experince it has to justified? C'mon now. Respect is unearned not earned, fool.

You seem to think I'm a dunce, or some troll or something. You're taking what I said as a personal affront. I don't know who or WTF you are so why would I want to dismiss you or your style? If some guy can come on here and claim that he knows ti and that a Matsumra Seito guy who trains under a real sensei who can explain and DO what it is he teaches may not know what he is talking about, and puts it in a condascending tone, then it's time for checkmate, mate. You hear me?

Look my opinion is just as valid as anyone else's on any of these sites. I've done some form of Shorin for a couple of decades now. I train under one of the preeminent Okinawan stylists in the world. If you don't know who he is or think that he isn't anything because he isn't Okinawan or Japanese (the latter means nil actually) then you are sadly mistaken. As a yudansha my opinion needs to be respected and as a fellow Shorin-ka with the guy who originally started this thread, he owes me that much.

I know my karate is real. It seems like some of you others are questioning yourselves without me implicating a damn body. Step off, please.

Reread stuff. You know RIF. I never said I understood a lot of Hogen, dude, I said why not just explain it dammit if you really know it so well. He started with the friggin' vernacular so I said great here are some more terms for you, Mr. Elite. He didn't know how to say it in English so I showed him how easy it was.

Oh and about Higa Sensei, how about never mind. I take back what I said I don't know if he was good or bad as ateacher. I heard from several high ranking sensei that he was alright. How about that.

I just wanted to know how he trained and how similar it was to my training in Okinawan karate. I was looking for common ground, not a point of difference. I guess all his years of MAs training, and yours too, just didn't fine tune his intuition enough, otherwise he would have wanted to meet and greet not be confrontational. Obviously he thinks I won't or can't understand his ti training from his posts but he is very wrong and he should know that a superiority complex can work both ways. Oh yes it can.

Now go reread my posts, and the order of things again. You are misinterpreting my words. Comprehension is a good thing. You are making a conflict where there was none.

Bryan Cyr, Nidan, Kokusai Shuri-Te Karate/Kobujutsu Rengo Kai

Tatsu
10th September 2005, 18:22
Bryan,

You do understand that even if you do have some good things to say, that by being so rude, people are likely to dismiss 100% of what you have to say.

Facts and perception are opposite sides of the same coin.

Without the ability to get your information out there in a decent, polite manner, you might as well just keep your information (opinion or otherwise) to yourself.

Best Regards,

Russ Smith

You're right. Delivery means a lot, although the truth is still the truth regardless of window dressing. Thank you, sir.

Bryan Cyr