FNG type

[urbalte]

Well, I just started Shorinji Kempo tonight (first practice). Had a blast. Any recommendations? I've been doing Toyama Ryu/Soga Ryu Batto Jitsu for a year now, and am starting to spread out and study more than just one discipline of budo. Honestly I feel (personallyat least) that having some sort of a MA background made my first night a little smoother than some total new guy off the street. And, hopefully made a good imrpession with Sensei. :smilejapa
So, anyone with pointers, or anything else, please lay it on me. I'm always open for constructive criticism.
One thing, though....I'm not too familiar with the basic dojo etiquette for Shorinji Kempo. It's pretty different from JSA. Any one care to lay it out fo rme? Thanks.

[Gary Dolce]

When you say "FNG Shorinji Kempo", what does the FNG refer to? I guess I don't know that acronym.

Where do you practice Shorinji Kempo?

[David Dunn]

Gary - I think it's "f*cking new guy" (US armed forces?), but sometimes it can be "net geek."

What is JSA?

Dojo etiquette - follow the rules of that dojo. Seems pretty straightforward. I'm sure a little local inquisitiveness will go a long way :)

[Tripitaka of AA]

JSA = Japanese Sword Arts ?, I think.

As for FNG, I blush easily, so I tend to prefer noob, or even something in English... the US military types that hang around on Budoseek can have me crying into my alphabet soup once they start on all their acronyms (CQC, E4, MOS, and oh so many more)...

Some of the local club websites feature items on Dojo Etiquette, but David's right... it's a good way to get to know some of your fellow Kenshi. Ask them and you'll both be learning :).

[satsukikorin]

Welcome, Jon.

Since your profile lists you as being in Japan, and since you ask the question you ask, I guess you're at a Japanese branch and don't speak (much) Japanese. If not, then David D. has it nailed--just ask someone. (They should be telling you anyway.) If so, then I recommend that you do some web trawling and start reading up the trove of information online. The San Francisco branch website has a really good intro to etiquette. The Swedish Federation site has lots of other interesting background information.

We E-Budoka can probably answer any specific questions you may have left.

:)

[urbalte]

David's got me pegged. I just started in the US Navy Yokosuka Dojo. And yes JSA is Japanese Sword Arts (where we practive in the same Dojo/different nights, though). FNG does also mean "Freaking New Guy."
Thanks for the info on the San Fran dojo's website. I'll hit that up here in a few minutes. Lookin' forward to discussing shorinji kempo topics on this forum with you guys! :)

[luar]

David's got me pegged. I just started in the US Navy Yokosuka Dojo. And yes JSA is Japanese Sword Arts (where we practive in the same Dojo/different nights, though). FNG does also mean "Freaking New Guy."
Thanks for the info on the San Fran dojo's website. I'll hit that up here in a few minutes. Lookin' forward to discussing shorinji kempo topics on this forum with you guys! :)



In that case allow me to give you the pointers you seek, though you are not going to like it.

Stop dojo jumping and stick with one style. To say that you feel that your martial arts background is more advantageous than a newbie off street overlooks the point that you may already have established "bad habits" that will be hard to break or will come in conflict with the teachings of other styles. I cannot imagine any sensei being impressed by that.

Good Luck

[satsukikorin]

Oh, come on, Raul—don't go all Kehoe on me. We went through all this before on old thread.

- There is no rule against practicing other styles unless you are a branch master.
- Lots of very good Shorinji Kempo instructors and kenshi have experience in other styles (including Seattle's Onaka-sensei, who is shodan in Iai).
- Breaking competing habits is on average no harder than establishing good ones in the first place.
- Sword arts are different enough technically that confusions would be minimal anyway.

So I say, Carry on, Jon, carry on. Some day you may have to choose, but that day ain't now.

:)

[urbalte]

In that case allow me to give you the pointers you seek, though you are not going to like it.

Stop dojo jumping and stick with one style. To say that you feel that your martial arts background is more advantageous than a newbie off street overlooks the point that you may already have established "bad habits" that will be hard to break or will come in conflict with the teachings of other styles. I cannot imagine any sensei being impressed by that.

Good Luck

Not sure when I "dojo jumped." I still practice Toyama Ryu Batto Jitsu at the regular time and place every week. I think you failed to realize that Shorinji Kempo is secondary in my training. Also, you may not be aware of this, but over here in Japan it is very common for people to practice more than one martial art. Those that do "stick with one style which I'm not sure where you came up with this idea....I use my style. I practice Shorinji RYU and Toyama RYU. Ryu meaning 'way'" only know how to look at things from one view point. When you diversify, you learn to broaden you spectrum, and see things from several new views. And yes, those with prior martial arts backgrounds do perform better when starting up new training in a new art. It's simply because we already know basic concepts. Bend slightly at the knees. Maintain balance. And so on, and so on.
Have I left you feeling inadequate? Is that why you're so quick to chastise? :rolleyes:
And to Satsukikorin, thanks for the bit of encouragement. I really do enjoy practising Shorinji Kempo a lot. Can you elaborate more on this policy of practising only Shorinji Kempo? I find this confusing.

[Troll Basher]

In that case allow me to give you the pointers you seek, though you are not going to like it.

1) Stop dojo jumping and stick with one style.
2) To say that you feel that your martial arts background is more advantageous than a newbie off street overlooks the point that you may already have established "bad habits" that will be hard to break or will come in conflict with the teachings of other styles. I cannot imagine any sensei being impressed by that.

Good Luck

1) Not sure what you mean here. Jon hasn’t gone from TKD to Karate to Shorinji Kempo….he went from a JSA which has basically nothing to do with Shorinji Kempo except in his case is practiced in the same dojo.
2) How so? I wasn’t aware that Shorinji Kempo uses a sword….is that some secret part of the art we have yet to be exposed to? I think the only bad habits he may have picked up would be in his A.T.G. class.

[David Dunn]

Jon,
I'm no expert, but I'm not sure that Japanese people often practice more than one martial art - at least not while letting the respective sensei know :laugh: It might be considered disloyal, particularly in traditional budo. You can search these forums for the discussions we've had in the past on that subject. Here's an example:
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21409

"Ryu" doesn't mean "way", incidentally. It means something like 'flow' or 'transmission'. Anyway, a ryu is a school of a traditional martial art. Shorinji Kempo is not designated as a ryu, because it is gendai (modern) budo. The "way" is the Japanese rendering of 'tao/dao', and is "do/michi". It's not a "way" as in a particular "way to do things", but a "way" as in a "road/path" - e.g. in budo, judo, karatedo, aikido, kendo, kyudo, chado, shodo etc. It is a concept from Zen, that you follow a particular path to continually transform yourself.

One of the important aspects of dojo etiquette is to turn up without any preconceptions. You might know a little batto jutsu, but you don't yet know any Shorinji Kempo. In that respect you are just a new guy off the street. I think the point Raul was making was that the Sensei is highly unlikely to be impressed if you come in thinking you know anything about what he's teaching.

[edit] After Russ's post: I think I agree that practicing a kobudo sword art is compatible with Shorinji Kempo. I'm just not sure where you'd find the time to do both :)

[Troll Basher]

Jon,
I'm no expert, but I'm not sure that Japanese people often practice more than one martial art - at least not while letting the respective sensei know :laugh: It might be considered disloyal, particularly in traditional budo. You can search these forums for the discussions we've had in the past on that subject. Here's an example:
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21409

1) "Ryu" doesn't mean "way", incidentally. It means something like 'flow' or 'transmission'. Anyway, a ryu is a school of a traditional martial art. Shorinji Kempo is not designated as a ryu, because it is gendai (modern) budo. The "way" is the Japanese rendering of 'tao/dao', and is "do/michi". It's not a "way" as in a particular "way to do things", but a "way" as in a "road/path" - e.g. in budo, judo, karatedo, aikido, kendo, kyudo, chado, shodo etc. It is a concept from Zen, that you follow a particular path to continually transform yourself.

One of the important aspects of dojo etiquette is to turn up without any preconceptions. You might know a little batto jutsu, but you don't yet know any Shorinji Kempo. In that respect you are just a new guy off the street. I think the point Raul was making was that the Sensei is highly unlikely to be impressed if you come in thinking you know anything about what he's teaching.

[edit] After Russ's post: I think I agree that practicing a kobudo sword art is compatible with Shorinji Kempo. I'm just not sure where you'd find the time to do both :)

1) It might be clearer if explained in these terms.
Within Karate, Iai, and some other “do” arts there are different “ryu ha”.
Judo, Shorinji Kempo and a few other arts don’t have “ryu ha” or “versions” within them.

[David Dunn]

Sorry I meant to say "after Robert's post". Couldn't edit in time.

Can you expand Robert? I thought 'ryuha' was a kobudo thing, to distinguish different versions of the various arts.

[Troll Basher]

Sorry I meant to say "after Robert's post". Couldn't edit in time.

Can you expand Robert? I thought 'ryuha' was a kobudo thing, to distinguish different versions of the various arts.


It is not necessarily a kobudo only thing.
It can be used for schools of tea and so on.
Overly vague translation is “ha” meaning type or version or method…..”ryu” meaning school, style….

XXXX ryu ha = XXXXX school's method

Since there is only one version/style or school of Shorinji Kempo and Judo they don’t use “ryu”

[satsukikorin]

"Dojo-jumping" = jumping back and forth between dojos (while practicing different styles).


Have I left you feeling inadequate? Is that why you're so quick to chastise?
This is no way to win friends, Jon.

Raul just happens to subscribe to the view that Shorinji Kempo calls for wholehearted dedication. It's hard to fault him for that, although personally I believe there are other ways to proceed in good faith.

Maybe I ought to let him speak for himself.

As for the policy question, it only applies to teaching, not practicing: Shorinji Kempo branch masters may not also teach another martial art. I think some regional federations might have stricter policies.

I like what David D. said about preconceptions. On the other hand, I see where you're coming from too, Jon—the idea that as a martial artist, at least you know that there are right and wrong ways of standing, moving, etc. So you (hopefully!) know better than a complete layman what to look at and copy when you're following your exemplar.

:)

[urbalte]

1) Not sure what you mean here. Jon hasn’t gone from TKD to Karate to Shorinji Kempo….he went from a JSA which has basically nothing to do with Shorinji Kempo except in his case is practiced in the same dojo.
2) How so? I wasn’t aware that Shorinji Kempo uses a sword….is that some secret part of the art we have yet to be exposed to? I think the only bad habits he may have picked up would be in his A.T.G. class.


Rob, what ATG Class? I think you mean ASF. Remember when the marine dudes were chewin on the young recruit for not participating in class? But, it was yet another 2 weeks of a class that got me out of doing my regular job (in a building with no windows). So, I'm not arguing. Besides, the USMC instructors were some cool dudes.

Satsu, I am aware that my actions usually don't make friends. However, in this particular instance I was not seeking to make friends with Luar. I was only trying to probe the situation. See what it was that made him want to chastise.

David, My first Sensei (the one for JSA) is fully aware what I have also started Shorinji Kempo. In fact, he holds nidan in SK. He also encouraged me to do it when I told him I was thinking of it. So, I'm' still not sure how and where I've "Dojo jumped." Other than the interpretation of me taking up a second martial art. As Rob pointed out I practice both martial arts in the same room, on the same floor, under the same roof. Only difference is what days I'm doing what. Where do I find the time? I don't find time. It's a natural occurance. If time were a physical being, I would be able to find it anywhere. Gotta love Physics. (take the time thing tongue in cheek)
And to all that were wondering, No I did not expect my sensei to find anything extraordinary with my super special talents in MArtial Arts. Do I have super special talents? Maybe somewhere in life, but no more special than anyone else in MA. What I meant was that He would find it easier in some aspects to get me to do the right things in a generic way based on the fact that I do have a background in MA. For those of you that do practice more than one martial art (Which yes it is a common thing over here in the Land of the Rising Sun) you know what I'm talking about. I do believe that Ma'ai is a term used in every Martial Art out there. For new people off the street that have never done anything before, this is a new concept. The sensei has to take his time to explain and train, and then hope his student understands and develops. Do I know anything about Shorinji Kempo? I know a little bit now that I've had at least one class. Is that a lot? Nope. I never said anything about me showing up thinking I could challenge Sensei. C'mon, guys. This is common sense. I showed up to the Dojo to learn and to practice, not to bedazzle. If anyone here thinks that why I went, then you are mistaken.
If anyone is unclear about this situation, then please let me know.

[colin linz]

Hi Jon,

Welcome to e-budo. I think the practicing under the one sensei was the norm; it may not be now though. My old sensei from Sydney, who is Japanese trains in Karate, even though he is a branch master in Shorinji Kempo. I guess even the conservative society of Japan will change in response to time and new ideas. This is not a concern for me, as long as what he taught me is Shorinji Kempo and not Karate. Not that there is anything wrong with Karate, it is just that I didn’t start Shorinji Kempo learn it.

[Troll Basher]

1) Rob, what ATG Class? I think you mean ASF.
2) Remember when the marine dudes were chewin on the young recruit for not participating in class? But, it was yet another 2 weeks of a class that got me out of doing my regular job (in a building with no windows).
3) So, I'm not arguing. Besides, the USMC instructors were some cool dudes.

As Rob pointed out I practice both martial arts in the same room, on the same floor, under the same roof. Only difference is what days I'm doing what. Where do I find the time? I don't find time. It's a natural occurance. If time were a physical being, I would be able to find it anywhere. Gotta love Physics. (take the time thing tongue in cheek)
And to all that were wondering, No I did not expect my sensei to find anything extraordinary with my super special talents in MArtial Arts. Do I have super special talents? Maybe somewhere in life, but no more special than anyone else in MA.
4) What I meant was that He would find it easier in some aspects to get me to do the right things in a generic way based on the fact that I do have a background in MA. For those of you that do practice more than one martial art (Which yes it is a common thing over here in the Land of the Rising Sun) you know what I'm talking about. I do believe that Ma'ai is a term used in every Martial Art out there. For new people off the street that have never done anything before, this is a new concept. The sensei has to take his time to explain and train, and then hope his student understands and develops. Do I know anything about Shorinji Kempo? I know a little bit now that I've had at least one class. Is that a lot? Nope. I never said anything about me showing up thinking I could challenge Sensei. C'mon, guys. This is common sense. I showed up to the Dojo to learn and to practice, not to bedazzle. If anyone here thinks that why I went, then you are mistaken.
If anyone is unclear about this situation, then please let me know.

1) Oh that’s right it is ASF….sorry I am still getting used to the “squid” acronyms.
2) Yes I was standing there when he was getting a good “lecture” on why you don’t make snide comments to Marines…..especially Marine Comabatives Instructors. Talk about a “no load”……
3) Yes they are. I sent my Army class over to them since I don’t have time to teach them and they are using the Marine Corps. Manual for their class it made sense.
4) Reading your opponent, “ma ai” and such are things common in all arts and do tend to transfer over from one art to another so I understand what you meant.

[luar]

"Dojo-jumping" = jumping back and forth between dojos (while practicing different styles).



Ahem... actually I meant to say Dojo Hopping, not Jumping... see what 2 months of marriage has done to me... My beer embu must be lousy these days.

[luar]

The subscribed view of yours truly strictly depends if you think ShorinjiKempo is a martial art or martial way.

Our philosophy says to learn the purpose behind every technique. For some that could mean within the context of a practical self-defense scenario. For others it is using the martial arts as a metaphor in how they conduct their lives which was what Kaiso had in mine. I think the more one experiences an activity as a way, everything else becomes a distraction or "gets in the way."

OK that's the esoteric line... now on to a more pratical level. The best way to be proficient in something is put all their energy into one thing. Am I to understand that the newbie is in the US Navy and has JUST started studying two martial arts at the same time? This is not clear to me.

Finally I believe a true teacher is more impress with how well you recieve his teachings and not with something that has nothing to do with present moment.

[urbalte]

[QUOTE=luar]OK that's the esoteric line... now on to a more pratical level. The best way to be proficient in something is put all their energy into one thing. Am I to understand that the newbie is in the US Navy and has JUST started studying two martial arts at the same time? This is not clear to me.
[QUOTE]

Yes and no. The best way to be proficient in something is to give it time. By just focusing on one thing all your life, yes you will be very proficient. However, given over time you pick up other things along the road, you will also become proficient in those things as well. Remember, I was doing JSA well before I even started thinking about Shorinji Kempo. Read back first post. Newbie? Ouch. Low blow. If you mean in the sense of me being a "newbie" in Shorinji Kempo, then yeah. That's me. Am I starting two martial arts at the same time? Nope. Been in Batto Jitsu for a while. The Kempo is new to me only. In fact at last night's practice we focused on tameshigiri (test cutting). It was great. Gave me a better idea of how my cuts were. My kiriage was at too low of an angle, and last night I was able to perfect it thanks to the visual left behind in the cardboard cutouts we were cutting. (Rob, you shoulda been there. George was pretty shocked when he watched Sensei)
Folks, it boils down like this: Both of my senseis know what's going on. My BAtto Jitsu sensei (like I've said before) is encouraging me to study Shorinji Kempo as well. In fact if our class ends early he'll pull me aside and give me pointers and teach me a few other things about SHorinji Kempo since he's also nidan Shorinji Kempo/hachidan Toyama Ryu Batto Jitsu. My Shorinji Kempo sensei knows full well that I continue to study Batto Jitsu and has not voiced any concern to me. In fact once or twice he made reference to it to help me relate the two arts (which can relate in basic terminology of broad Budo terms). Do we all know what Zanshin is? We should. Hasso in JSA and Shorinji Kempo are way way different, but have the same idea. Jodan is the same way, different, but same idea (up high).
On a sort of side note, Soga sensei (Batto Jitsu) has devised his own style of JSA called Soga Ryu. It's a sort of Toyama Ryu/Shorinji Kempo mix. There are times in battle (yes, I know battles don't happen anymore, but it's still good for the mind and body) when you become empty handed. Soga Ryu is what to do when that happens. Good stuff. :)