Miguel Ibarra / DR AJJ Yamabushi-kai (Icho yama-ryu)

[Roy3]

Hello! I was hoping to get opinions on the 7 (600 minute) volume Aikijujutsu DVD set by Miguel Ibarra. I thinking of buying the set, but there seems to be little said about Miguel Ibarra, or the quality of his videos. Thank You, Roy :)

[MarkF]

Why not invite Miguel here to answer some questions about the volumes, or just to give a description so as to have a base of what to ask? He is a member here, and recently re-signed up.

His email is kaiden@aol.com and I believe he accepts PMs, too (Just so you know, he posted his email for the general public).

Or, he may see this and accept it as an invitation to discuss it.

BTW: Roy, please sign your posts with a full name, not just your first name. You can put it in your signature so not to have to remember to do so every time.

I note your name is in your profile, but still, please sign. Thanks.


Mark

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Ibarra's video set has been around forever, published by "Panther Videos" and advertised in mags like Black Belt back in the old days. Panther Videos did make quite a few video series in its time, but is not known for their production quality.

I've never seen Mr. Ibarra's videos, and funny enough, never came across anyone who has them. You might start by doing a search on Miguel Ibarra's name both here and in Google to get a sense for what others have to say.

Here is Ibarra's webpage:

http://members.aol.com/kaiden/

Regards,

[Roy3]

Thank you Mark and Nathan, for your replies :) . I think I will give Miguel an email. I have posted another, and more complete thread called,"Roy's video dilemma," to give a clearer idea on the info i'm trying to find out. Thanx again, Roy Leclair.

[Menker]

You can find some reviews here:

http://home.att.net/~erik.mann/miftaj.htm
http://home.att.net/~erik.mann/miitaj.htm
http://home.att.net/~erik.mann/miataj.htm
http://home.att.net/~erik.mann/missdv1.htm
http://home.att.net/~erik.mann/missdv2.htm

Not included are reviews of the "Warm-Up & Conditioning" or "History/Philosophy/Traditions" videos, the latter of which is just an interview with Mr. Ibarra.

I think the production quality is better in this series than I have seen in other Panther productions, but I agree with the above-cited reviewer that there is quite a bit of repetition of the same techniques.

[gmarquay]

I have Ibarra's videos.

Honestly, there is not much of anything good that I can say about them.

The production quality is not too bad.
As for the content of the videos, I would have to say that it looks more like second-rate "jujitsu", than the true Aikijujutsu that I have seen (and felt first hand).

I hope you don't waste your money, as I feel my money was wasted on these videos.

Before I go, I just want to mention that just because I don't particularly like the videos, I am not attempting to questions Ibarra's skill level. I have never met the man, nor felt his technique. This is merely my short critique of the video series.

Very Respectfully,
Glenn J. Marquay

[Dan Harden]

Gentlemen
Lets only judge "in context" shall we? These are dated videos.

Lets consider what we would all think of each other had we video taped ourselves 15 - 20 years ago then sat around and discussed our "skills" today. Secondly, if we chose to judge each other on decisions we had made in our youth (like taking videos of ourselves).
We all grow and we more often than not -change.

Young men make vidoes when they are exited about their new skills and may regret it, others after some years training and still others when they have mastered something. But, here's the catch...........Masters are filmed making mistakes but not everyone knows it was a mistake, (yes.......monkeys do fall from trees) and last time I checked- serious people actually improved over the course of their careers, some considerably.

Dan
"Who is actually liking what the years have done for him"

[Cady Goldfield]

Hm. I have one of those tapes. It's pretty old, and skills (and attitudes) change over the years. I'll wager that he is very different now than he was then.

Confidential to Dan:
Hey you, you near the phone? Can I call ya?

[Dan Harden]

call me at home I'm sick and camping out here

Dan

[Phil Farmer]

Hi Roy,

I notice you are in Canada but being a self-centered American, I am not sure where exactly Victoria is. Anyway, if you are looking for an art that incorporates more weapons and more aikijutsu you might find a Yoseikan Budo school. Mochizuki Sensei was an early student of Ueshiba and so our style incorporates some very hard versions of aiki techniques and has the reputation of being much closer to aikijutsu than current aikido. Also, Mochizuki Sensei was involved with Daito Ryu for many years and was an honored guest at the 1992 Japanese Friendship Demonstration of Daito Ryu.

Yoseikan incorporates the aiki skills with jiujitsu applications but ads good atemi (punches and kicks), ground work, strangles, pins, and a broad range of weapons. The technical director for the Yoseikan World Federation, Marc Baudry, is located in Trois Rivieres, Quebec but there are other schools. Aikido Mochizuki is in the same area and is the program of Roger Roy and Michel Martin. This group is much more traditional in its Yoseikan and they do Katori Shinto Ryu, not Mochizuki Sensei's version of it.

Anyway, if effective is what you want, I think one of these groups might meet your needs. Of course with my luck you actually live in British Columbia and all of these people will be hundreds of miles away.


Phil Farmer

[Walker]

One question you may want to answer is whether you are looking to have some simple self defense/goshin type stuff or if you want to explore a more practical side of your aikido. For self defense you might consider one of the packages like the Jim Grover combatives type videos or search out a model mugging type self defense course.

[Richard Tolson]

Roy,
I had a couple of Ibarra Sensei's videos years ago. I thought he showed great technique. He did some nice defense against weapons. However, the videos I had did not teach the use of any weapons. I would recommend the videos I had. Unfortunately, I don't remember which ones they were. :rolleyes:

[SoldierNurse]

I, for one, recently received the Aikijujutsu 7 Volume DVD Set and don't regret the puchase. BTW, I liked the repetition of the same techniques [which was mentioned by Menker in a previous post].

However, I think the kaiden@aol.com email is no longer available?

[Nathan Scott]

Well, it appears that Mr. Ibarra has an alternate web page that is more current:

http://mysite.verizon.net/kaiden2/

On it is an image of his "new" patch:

http://www.tsuki-kage.com/daito-ryu/ibarra-patch.gif

This patch is a HUGE and blatant rip-off of the patch used by Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai both internationally and in Japan. It is obviously an intentional infringement, as I will illustrate below:

1) The black and gold color scheme is identical.

2) The outer gold emblem design is identical, except there is an increased number (from 6 to 8) of outer sections on the Ibarra patch. The Ibarra patch also uses gold dotted stitching to trace the inside of the crest instead of the solid gold tracing the Kodokai uses.

3) The gold hanko in the center is identical except it appears Ibarra changed one of the lines slightly.

4) Though Ibarra's new patch says "Daito Ryu Aiki Jitsu Yamabushi Kai" in red "oriental" lettering (English) around the crest, which is of course different - incredibly - the gold Japanese kanji on top and below the center hanko still says "Daito-ryu Kodokai"!!! A couple of the kanji are sewn pretty messy, which is either an intentional attempt at alteration or an unintentional mistake in the manufacturing, but the characters are still readable, and cannot really be mistaken or read in any other way. Also, the reading of the kanji on the Ibarra patch is also from right to left, as is the Kodokai patch. This is an unusual, old way of writing Japanese horizontally, and rarely seen or used any more.

**

To some of those reading the above, the changes I'm referring to may sound like significant changes, but if you have an opportunity to compare them both, you will surely agree that this clear hijacking of the Kodokai design (and name) is really outrageous! Even the Bokuyokan made more of an attempt at changing their designs when they broke away, even though they are clearly derived from Kodokai designs.

So Mr. Ibarra, what's the deal? Ya think your new patch design could have been better thought out, or are you set on to sticking with it through good times - and bad? IMO, there's nothing wrong with admitting an error in judgement and moving forward (or back) to other more "original" designs before any real damage is done. Especially when you weigh the likelyhood of the heavy negative flak that would surely result from infringing on the property of such a headstrong and conservative group as the Kodokai.

[Nathan Scott]

I'm dropping Mr. Ibarra an invitation to chat with us at an alternate email address found on his new page...

[Mark Jakabcsin]

2) The outer gold emblem design is identical, except Ibarra increased the number of outer sections from 6 to 8. Ibarra also uses gold dotted stitching to trace the inside of the crest instead of the solid gold tracing the Kodokai uses.



Nathan,
Funny you should mention this one as it was the very first thing I noticed when I looked at the patch. I was immediately struck by the number of outer sections and started counting them as it didn't look right. Keep in mind I have never seen the Kodokai patch before but was surprised that there were/are 8 sections instead of the 6 I had expected. Then I read your comment above about how the Kodokai patch has 6 and Mr. Ibarra has changed his to 8. I smiled.

Mr. Ibarra,
What if any significance is there in the change to 8 outer sections? I guess part of what I am asking is do you know why there are 6 sections on the Kodokai patch and if so what does your new 8 sections mean? Thanks. I also hope you address Nathan's questions/concerns.

Mark J.

[miguel angel ib]

Hello everyone!! Thank you for having such a lively discussion of me and my patch and dvds.

I have sent an e-mail to Mr. Scott [I couldn't log in] which I have asked him to share with everyone.

The tapes are liked by some, disliked by others. That's why there are so many colors in the world--to each his/her own. I do not profess to teach anything secret, deadly, ancient or "ADVANCED". I just teach street effective[and proven on the streets of NY] jujutsu and aikijujutsu as I was taught by my 2 main instructors[Katsumi Yonezawa and Antonio Pereira]. I am 56 years old and have been training for over 40 years. I have been teaching in my own dojo for 24 consecutive years[prior to that for my instructor another 3/4 years]. I have also trained under many other very talented individuals and I respect each and every practitioner of the arts regardless of style and or rank. Mr. Scott thank you for your comments on my patch. I'm sure the KodoKai appreciates your efforts on their behalf but as you know I am not ripping them off but rather earned [on the mat] the right/priviledge to wear their patch.

To the young man who wants to know about the 7 volume series, please do not pay more than the $9.99 per dvd that century is asking and in fact I think you can get them for $7.99 during the holidays. I no longer get any proceeds from them but its a cheap way to add some material to your library.
If anyone is interested in my new dvds please go to my site to get info or as someone suggested earlier just punch my name into the computer, something will pop up.

If anyone would like to visit my small dojo, its at 2301 Yates Ave. Bronx, NY corner of Astor Ave. in the Pelham Pkway section of the Bronx.
You can also catch me on www.myspace.com/yamabushijutsu.
MY direct e-mail is kaiden2@verizon.net. Please feel free to contact me directly since I do not normally respond to any forums or chat room discussions. I only answered this time out of respect for Mr. Scott since he contacted me directly.

Well there's not much else for me to say. Thanks again. Stay healthy and may all of you here at this forum have a safe and healthy holiday season.
Miguel Ibarra, Kaiden Shihan
Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Yamabushi Kai

[miguel angel ib]

Since I'm already on--Mr. Jacobsin I have no idea what you are talking about and have no idea of any special meaning to the kodokai patch nor my own. I made no intentional changes to the patches which I was wearing on my gis from the kodokai. So sorry if you were expecting some deep dark analysis of the patches. I take patches for what they are- a sign post worn on a gi. If it was up to me [in a different world and dimension] I would waer no patch and nothing more than a white belt for the gi top. But we do live in this world and not fantasy so we do as others do.[sometimes]
Miguel Ibarra

[SoldierNurse]

It was good to hear your side. You sound like a very honorable man. I will definitely check out your website for the new DVD's you mentioned.

Happy Holidays!

[Nathan Scott]

The following was emailed to me by Mr. Ibarra with the request that I post it on his behalf since he was having problems with posting at the time:


Mr. Scott, I have tried to access e-budo but had to re-register and am awaiting permission to access the forum so I can post. Frankly, I do not like to participate in internet discussions. Too many uneducated, illtrained opinions without life experiences to back them up.
However I will comment to you and you may feel free to post this in its entirety.

1]My Panther tapes were done in 1988 as a commercial venture to make money. It was an attempt to capitalize on the "Master Series" that Panther was putting out and having been trained and ranked under Katsumi Yonezawa[Daito Ryu KodoKai Shihan until he broke away] I used the Aikijujutsu title. Although I objected to the title of Master, Mr. Jennings insisted that it was the way his tapes were put out to the market. He being the producer and director, I had to go along. These were also made up rank requirements for commercial purposes not the true rank requirements of either my dojo or the Kodokai.

2] My new series of DVDs takes a student through the ranks of white,orange, yellow, green, 3rd,2nd,1st Brown and finally Black. It is a true depiction of the minimum requirements for ranking to those levels in my organization.

3] As you know in addition to the high Dan ranks I have been awarded in Jujutsu, I am also a legitimate holder of Shodan and Nidan in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu KodoKai under Katsumi Yonezawa and Sandan in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Bokuyokan also under Katsumi Yonezawa.

4] What can I tell you about my patch. Its a pretty design. I'm sorry you and others may not like the quality of the patch. I've been using this company for many years and I'm satisfied with it. As to the "rip off", I'm sure there are many other martial arts practitioners out there who don't know their ps and q's that you can pick on without getting me involved in controversy. At least I teach my art as I was taught by my jujutsu instructor, Antonio Pereira[MiYama Ryu Jujutsu] and by Katsumi Yonezawa[Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu]. And in my own way pay tribute to their systems by not denying my roots or making believe that I invented or received a golden shower from which I devised the many techniques I teach. I don't bother anybody and keep to myself teaching realistic street effective jujutsu and aikijujutsu.
I've put in 40 years of training with 24 consecutive years teaching. During the last 25 years I worked in Law Enforcement executing warrants, gang suppression and intelligence work. My training proved to work extremely well for me while battling the many crack heads, gang bangers and others on the streets of N.Y.
I hope you are satisfied with my response and please do not hesitate to contact me again should the need arise.

Again please feel free to post this since I'm having a hard time posting it myself. Thank you.
Miguel Ibarra, Kaiden Shihan
Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Yamabushi Kai

[Nathan Scott]

Hello Mr. Ibarra,

Thanks for your reply.


My Panther tapes were done in 1988 as a commercial venture to make money. It was an attempt to capitalize on the "Master Series" that Panther was putting out...

Well, I for one appreciate your honesty about all this. I hope you made lots of money. :)


...having been trained and ranked under Katsumi Yonezawa[Daito Ryu KodoKai Shihan until he broke away] I used the Aikijujutsu title.

I see. I remember hearing something about Yonezawa rankings during that time period. Was Yonezawa living in the Bronx by any chance, or was there someone else in the area you were training under during your time with Yonezawa?


As you know in addition to the high Dan ranks I have been awarded in Jujutsu, I am also a legitimate holder of Shodan and Nidan in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu KodoKai under Katsumi Yonezawa...

Actually, I didn't know that. It would be interesting to see what the certificates given at that time looked like - do they look the same as the Bokuyokan certificates?


As to the "rip off", I'm sure there are many other martial arts practitioners out there who don't know their ps and q's that you can pick on without getting me involved in controversy.

Actually, no. We just finished having speaks with another group about this, that, and the other thing, but things are pretty dead right now. Sorry. It's probably the holiday season or something. I expect things to pick up again after the New Year.


And in my own way pay tribute to their systems by not denying my roots or making believe that I invented or received a golden shower from which I devised the many techniques I teach.

That does seem like a nice idea, but you might be surprised how many people out there are in fact paying tribute to Daito-ryu these days! It seems like denying your roots and claiming you made everything up is in fact the more respectable way to go if you look around.


I've put in 40 years of training with 24 consecutive years teaching. During the last 25 years I worked in Law Enforcement executing warrants, gang suppression and intelligence work. My training proved to work extremely well for me while battling the many crack heads, gang bangers and others on the streets of N.Y.

That sounds impressive. You're a probation officer, right? I guess I didn't realize how much street experience probation officers actually get. That sounds like fun - I wonder if it's too late for me to get into the whole probation officer gig! (hmmmm...)


I hope you are satisfied with my response and please do not hesitate to contact me again should the need arise.

Thanks, very satisfying.

**


Since I'm already on--Mr. Jacobsin I have no idea what you are talking about and have no idea of any special meaning to the kodokai patch nor my own. I made no intentional changes to the patches which I was wearing on my gis from the kodokai.

Ahhh, there's probably no special meaning. I wouldn't put any more thought into it.

But I find this part interesting - are you saying that your new patch (minus your English additions in red) is an unaltered Kodokai patch? My apologies for accusing you of making modifications in that case (maybe it was a special, limited edition design?). But that actually makes the whole thing more strange - if you are not now, and haven't been a member of the Kodokai in many years, and have in fact been teaching your own style for even more years - why wrap the name or your own art around a Kodokai patch? That's a "tribute"?!? Maybe it's just me - does anyone else see this as a tribute?


Mr. Scott thank you for your comments on my patch. I'm sure the KodoKai appreciates your efforts on their behalf but as you know I am not ripping them off but rather earned [on the mat] the right/priviledge to wear their patch.

My pleasure. As far as my efforts go, I don't have a lot of free time, but I do like to help legitimate groups out when I can. Especially the more traditional, conservative groups who haven't been burned yet and are ramping up on becoming legally savvy yet about the need to protect their tradition.

So you've earned the right to wear the Kodokai patch after leaving the group to train in another Daito-ryu branch? That sure seems like quite a presumption. Have you thought to ask the Kodokai how they feel about that? And if you are a student of Yonezawa, then why not pay tribute to the Bokuyokan group he founded? Or Miyama-ryu for that matter? Maybe they wouldn't mind you subsuming their patch instead.

Well anyway, your position is pretty clear. Good luck with this patch thing.

Happy Holidays,

[elder999]

Hello Mr. Ibarra,
Actually, I didn't know that. It would be interesting to see what the certificates given at that time looked like - do they look the same as the Bokuyokan certificates?


That was rather "tung" in cheek.... :)



That sounds impressive. You're a probation officer, right? I guess I didn't realize how much street experience probation officers actually get. That sounds like fun - I wonder if it's too late for me to get into the whole probation officer gig! (hmmmm...)

For the record, Mr. Ibarra was a warrant officer for the probation department of the City of New York-he executed "no-knock" warrants on parole violators. In other words, he often broke into the homes of violent and armed third time losers, dragged them out of their beds and took them to jail for the rest of their lives.
Not exactly the image some might have of "probation officers."

Don't know anything about his or any other Daito-ryu.......

[don]

Don't know about the patch thing. But correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't it considered perfectly acceptable for someone to go off from the main line they'd trained in and call their own version "Myown-ha whatever-ryu"?

Wouldn't changing the patch from 6 squiggles to 8 be about the same thing in graphic terms (ignoring for a moment that "Roppo" in Roppokai means 6, of course...)?

Thanks.

[miguel angel ib]

Again thank you for all of the attention. Mr. Scott you obviously know very little of what the duties of a NYC Probation Officer are. As stated previously I was first a Warrant officer then Supervisor, Chief and finally Asst. Commissioner for the Dept in charge of executing warrants, Gang suppression, narcotics suppression and Intelligence investigations. If you have a Bachelors and a Masters degree with appropriate experience you to can qualify for the job, there is no age limitation. I know I don't have to justify my experience but I do hate when people who do not know what they are talking about try to bash something as serious as what I and my partners do[did] for a living. i actually thought you'd be above that.

And, yes I am painfully aware of all of the versions/variations of Daito Ryu that have popped up, especially since the death of Tokimune Soke. And you know what else, breaking away in one form or another and paying tribute in whatever manner one chooses is not just an Ibarra thing. Read the history of our great martial artists and for that matter look into how much time some of them have actually practiced[not counting those esoteric illuminating golden shower episodes of some of our martial arts ancestors] the arts they are now considered to be masters of before they went on to do their own thing'rip off' or not.
Yonezawa never lived in the US. A group of us would pay for him to travel to NY to train us and there were others who would sponsor him to the west coast on a yearly or semi basis.[Look in the Black Belt Magazine archives for articles and news releases on this]

While training under Yonezawa I was still training under the MIYama Ryu system until my instructor objected to my continueing in Daito Ryu. By the way I also wear the Miyama Ryu patch, why would I leave them out.

Lastly, I think maybe if we all spent a little more time training/practicing rather than questioning and challenging, our skills might improve and our spirits and personalities would become more humble and accepting of those that may be different from us. Frankly its no ones business, but NO I did not make a lot of money nor am I making money now from the martial arts. Paying your rent on the dojo is not making money but the pleasure of training and practicing is worth it.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE.
Miguel Angel Ibarra
Shihan

[miguel angel ib]

Oh, I forgot, I don't have to ask the Kodokai or anyone else what they think about anything I choose to do or don't do. That is the pleasure of being Independent. I especially don't have to ask any of the so called main line organizations from Japan. I use to do that when I was funneling my money to them for the "precious" knowledge that they are now putting on vidoes and dvds for a few bucks. Just like the rest of us.

[miguel angel ib]

Oh! I also forgot to clarify: I do not teach my own style. I teach the Miyama Ryu and Daito Ryu as I was taught them. Just because I combine the materials it does not make it my own style. As I said before I have not come up with anything new just a little empirical evidence from the streets that it works if applied correctly.
miguel ibarra

[Robc]

Mr. Ibarra,

Glad to see you on this forum. Unfortunately, half of the posts here are typically of the self righteous, windy sort you've been subjected to.

I'll chime in to say I've enjoyed your work and no-nonsense approach. The Miyama Ryu practitioners I've trained with have spoken highly of you.

And, as a fellow LEO, I appreciate the realities of your job. If more martial artists were subjected to such an arena to apply their craft we might have a few less Internet tigers.

Be safe, and keep training.

Rob

[miguel angel ib]

Thank you Mr. Canestrari. I'm afraid you are correct. The internet and the dojo create many paper tigers. It is quite different , as you know, when reality hits you in the face and its a real knife or a real gun or a real group about to take you out. This is something that many[not all] "traditional" martial artists especially within the Daito Ryu and aiki areas don't seem to grasp. Some of us are interested in practicing how to deal with imaginary "samurai" and some of us want to do both while emphasizing defending against the dishonorable random acts of violence committed by our modern day criminals who couldn't care less about our safe, honorable, form infused esoteric traditional ways. And as to the other areas of concern, way too much energy is wasted on them.
Again thank you and if you'd like to converse off the forum feel free to e-mail me directly. kaiden2@verizon.net.

Be safe,Miguel Ibarra

[DDATFUS]

Oh, I forgot, I don't have to ask the Kodokai or anyone else what they think about anything I choose to do or don't do. That is the pleasure of being Independent. I especially don't have to ask any of the so called main line organizations from Japan.

Sorry to contradict, but if it is the Kodokai's patch and the Kodokai's logo, then I suspect that you very much do have to find out what they think about you using it. After all, if they created the image, then it is their intellectual property. Think about how Nike would feel if you put their trademarked "swoosh" (you know, the check-mark looking thingee) on your uniform. Or, to be more precise, think how Nike's lawyers would feel about that.

The Kodokai might not sue you (though they might; I don't know anything about them), if the image is their property it seems like asking their permission to continue using it is only respectful. It seems like asking them how they feel about using their image would be the right thing to do in this case, possibly as a matter of law, and if nothing else then as a matter of courtesy. After all, I know that you feel that you "earned" the right to wear the patch in your time with the Kodokai, but don't you think that the people who have stayed with the Kodokai long enough to actually make it to the top, the ones who have reached the highest levels after decades of single-minded commitment, have "earned" the right to decide how the patch is used?

Anyway, not trying to start a fight. Best of luck in your training.

[miguel angel ib]

No one was referring to Mr. Scott as anything other than Mr. Scott. Stop taking genaralities and attching them to individuals. That's not nic. And having LE background does not make one better but it certainly gives one a different perspective on our "practical" martial arts. And by the way look at the masters we honor today they all had some type of street experience which validated what they did. Whether it was streetfighting or military their having proved their art is why many people in the world follow their teachings long after they have died.

So get off the attitudes already. Training and practicing is what should be important. Also, insults and personal comments are better handled in person not over air waves or internet.
Miguel Ibarra

[Brian Griffin]

...a couple of trivial points:



...Katsumi Yonezawa[Daito Ryu KodoKai Shihan until he broke away]
My recollection grows increasingly hazy with each passing year, but I had the impression that Yonezawa-sensei was Kodokai 7-dan, but not a shihan, and I further had the impression that his separation from the Kodokai was partly motivated by some discontent over not being promoted to shihan.

Am I way off base here? I'd appreciate some clarification by those with better information.


I am also a legitimate holder of Shodan and Nidan in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu KodoKai under Katsumi Yonezawa and Sandan in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Bokuyokan also under Katsumi Yonezawa.
In Kodokai, at least, ranks through sandan are relatively junior. In fact, they're not even permitted to wear hakama :) .

[Nathan Scott]

Man, I log back on to find this thread has gone to hell! Thanks for keeping the peace George.

Hi Aaron,


For the record, Mr. Ibarra was a warrant officer for the probation department of the City of New York-he executed "no-knock" warrants on parole violators. In other words, he often broke into the homes of violent and armed third time losers, dragged them out of their beds and took them to jail for the rest of their lives.
Not exactly the image some might have of "probation officers."

Alright. FWIW, I did an internet search on Mr. Ibarra and law enforcement and came up with a couple of references to him being a "probation officer" with no specifics about his job description. So if he is out kicking down doors, kudos to him. Thanks for the clarification. It still sounds like good times to me.


Wouldn't changing the patch from 6 squiggles to 8 be about the same thing in graphic terms (ignoring for a moment that "Roppo" in Roppokai means 6, of course...)?

At first glance, they look identical. I thought the patch Mr. Ibarra put up was in fact an intentional modification of the Kodokai patch, since the Kodokai patches I've seen used are different. But Mr. Ibarra is claiming that this was a patch he received from the Kodokai, and that he just wrapped his name around it. So it isn't even an attempt at modifying the original as much as just "borrowing" it to represent his own mix of Miyama-ryu and Yonezawa-ha Daito-ryu. How much you change something to keep it from being an infringement on someone else is something that is evaluated on a case-by-case basis, but I'm guessing if - as in this case - your patch says "Daito-ryu Kodokai" in Japanese, it could be a problem. I mean, if you were to take the McDonalds logo with their golden arches and make patches with your dojo name wrapped around it, do ya think Mc D's might have issues with it?

Mr. Ibarra,


Mr. Scott you obviously know very little of what the duties of a NYC Probation Officer are.

Obviously. Thanks for the explanation. As someone else mentioned though, not all probation officers perform the same duties, and the ones that most of us know about, or run into, are the ones who sit at a desk and wait to see if their ex-convicts check in or not (more or less - I'm sure there is more to the job than that, but you know what I'm getting at).

It was not my intention to "bash" you for what you do professionally, if that is in fact, what you do. I am actually a keen supporter of the many thousands of military, fire, and LE - most of whom you don't ever read about on the net - that are out there doing very dangerous duties on a daily basis. However, since this is not related to the subject being discussed, we can probably move on from the professional-life stuff to art representation.


And you know what else, breaking away in one form or another and paying tribute in whatever manner one chooses is not just an Ibarra thing. Read the history of our great martial artists and for that matter look into how much time some of them have actually practiced ... the arts they are now considered to be masters of before they went on to do their own thing 'rip off' or not.

You are right, but we are not talking about just "breaking off". Breaking off at a menkyo kaiden level of initiation, or even shihan level, is not frowned upon, and in such cases there is usually not an issue with continuing to use the name of the ryu-ha for your own branch of the art. However, breaking off at a low level of initiation, and using the name of the art as well as the patch ("logo") of a parent art, is a whole other thing that is and was quite frowned upon. And for the record, that's not just a Scott thing, that is also passed down in the history of our great martial arts (which I have read up on a bit).

You do have a good point about the comparatively very short training times of our predecessors when compared to ranks/initiations today though. Some of that historically probably reflects the number of hours actually trained on the mat, as well as the intensity of the training found during that period of time. Of course, in other cases, there are probably more commercial or ability-based reasons for the rapid ranking. I will say though that we don't live in those times now, and in the majority of cases I see, it seems that extending the ranking times per hours of training (or in most cases "time served") is a move in the right direction.

A shodan ranked person 100 years ago is something totally different than a shodan ranked level person today. It really is not a fair comparison.


Yonezawa never lived in the US. A group of us would pay for him to travel to NY to train us and there were others who would sponsor him to the west coast on a yearly or semi basis.[Look in the Black Belt Magazine archives for articles and news releases on this].

Interesting (I have seen a number of the news releases BTW).


While training under Yonezawa I was still training under the MIYama Ryu system until my instructor objected to my continueing in Daito Ryu. By the way I also wear the Miyama Ryu patch, why would I leave them out.

Great. But I don't see why you would choose to use the Kodokai patch then. If anything, it would seem like you would want to recognize Yonezawa, who himself created his own system and ranked you in it. Didn't you quit the Kodokai to follow Yonezawa? I've also noticed that you designed your own Yamabushi-kai patch some years ago. Why not stick to your own original design?


Lastly, I think maybe if we all spent a little more time training/practicing rather than questioning and challenging, our skills might improve and our spirits and personalities would become more humble and accepting of those that may be different from us.

I agree about the training part, but I don't see the problem with logging on to the internet between dojo training and work. History has also shown that putting your head in the sand and hoping that nothing bad happens to your group politically is extremely risky. There is a time for talk/action and a time for training. I for one welcome those that are different that myself, and also respect skill. But we aren't talking about either one of these subjects, nor are we talking about law enforcement or street toughness.


I don't have to ask the Kodokai or anyone else what they think about anything I choose to do or don't do. That is the pleasure of being Independent. I especially don't have to ask any of the so called main line organizations from Japan.

That's an interesting point of view, though not a popular one in the traditional arts. I do appreciate your honesty on the subject.

Regards,

[Nathan Scott]

BTW, here is a link to another homepage for Mr. Ibarra that he emailed to me in Sept. of 2004:

http://www.geocities.com/mountainwarrior/Daito.html

Regards,

[miguel angel ib]

I guess its ok to bash people but don't let them respond. The Delete button is soooo POWERful!

Love it. Bye

[George Kohler]

I removed my posts at the request of Mr. Scott due to privacy issues. Since your post was in response to my post I "hid" it due to context. If you want it back up all you had to do is send me a PM. The post has been put back.

[Scott Harrington]

Regarding Ibarra Sensei,

Many, many years ago, for a short time my instructor was 'affiliated' with the Yamabushi curriculum. Very self-defense oriented, street-effective techniques.

I even have a video of Ibarra Sensei teaching a class. Enjoyed it (the class) and distinctly remember a shiho nage (the hard type) with a koshi takeoff - very brutal. He seemed like a good instrutor. Would recommend looking at his stuff.

I don't know what changes he took under the late Yonezawa sensei. From what I heard Yonezawa (a christian) was struck down by politics in the Kodokai (trying to get video of him on the mat - everybody I hear badmouthing him seems second, third and fourth hand.) Seeing is believing in my eyes.

On a side note - Nathan, the moderator is not an instigator, nor an interlocutor. And since you are involved in LE, I think you must have taken a fall on the head in the dojo before making some of those comments.

The discussion here has, of course, taken the typical practical vs. preservation line. Is Daito-ryu an antique not to be used (and preserved perfectly) or is it a tool to be used (and altered for the times).

Patches Patches Patches, who shall rid me of these patches!

Scott Harrington

[Ron Tisdale]

I'm not sure anyone would argue about using what you have studied (Daito ryu or anything else) to build your own training regimen, or even to build your own system, if that is what you desire. The central question is: If you go off on your own, should you use a patch clearly associated with a school you have left, with minor changes, without their permission.

The context is that you were not granted a menkyo kaiden.

Best,
Ron

[Nathan Scott]

By the way, the only reason this subject is being discussed is because Mr. Ibarra posted webpages on the internet containing the material we are debating here. When you publish something publicly, you risk others who view it commenting on it. If your goal is to keep something private, then don't advertise it on the internet for the entire world to see.

Happy holidays...

[DDATFUS]

The discussion here has, of course, taken the typical practical vs. preservation line. Is Daito-ryu an antique not to be used (and preserved perfectly) or is it a tool to be used (and altered for the times).


I think I missed the post where someone said that Daito-ryu shouldn't be used or had to be preserved perfectly. I did see some posts where people seemed to imply that using someone else's name and ensignia without permission was perhaps less than respectful (and also, perhaps a violation of intellectual property standards), but I would appreciate it if you could direct me to a post where someoen said that Daito-ryu should be treated like an antique.

[Ron Tisdale]

No such post exists.

Best,
Ron

[miguel angel ib]

Seems like everyone has had a piece of the action and let off some steam about one issue or another regarding yours truly and what I practice ,teach and advertise. Soooo, what do you say we all try to have a very Happy and Healthy Holiday season and the best to all in the coming year.

It appears to me that everyone in the above thread at least subscribes to the "lets train and practice: which is great.

MERRY XMAS and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!
Miguel Ibarra,
Kaiden Shihan
Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Yamabushi Kai

[Ron Tisdale]

Best to you and yours, and have a happy and safe holiday...

Ron

[Juan Perez]

Mr. Ibarra,

I first met you many years ago when I was just a teenager. A friend, who was then one of your students for a short time, took me to you dojo in the Bronx. I was impressed by your no-nonsense approach. In my current line of work we take hand-to-hand very serious and we care nothing about patches or affiliations. In the end, I've noticed, when your life actually depends on your traning, that stuff goes out the window and has little to no priority. Thank you for staying true to the way you have always been. I recall a conversation we had the day I met you and what I've read here sounds like you have not changed much. That's refreshing to see. Take care, sir.

"De Oppresso Liber"

[Nathan Scott]

In my current line of work we take hand-to-hand very serious and we care nothing about patches or affiliations.

I've been noticing this attitude alot in regards to this subject, and Mr. Ibarra's thread in particular. I would simply say that there is nothing wrong with seeking effective technique without any of the "hangups" of that go along with traditional/classical Japanese arts. However, if that is your attitude, then you simply do not belong in such arts.

There is a whole world out there of free-information exchange research, mixed martial arts, CQC, etc. that match such a mindset. Just be advised that those that wish to exploit or attach themselves to traditional arts while doing their own MMA are going to invite the political clashing and fighting that they claim to want to avoid.

There are in fact many traditional/classical martial artists out there who are able to adhere to the expectations of such traditions while at the same time adapting the principles as needed for effective modern day usage. It is possible to do both, but you must be realistic about what your own disposition and goals are. If you don't have the patience or humility to deal with the traditional "BS", then just leave them alone.

There is nothing wrong with MMA or CQC, or for that matter, making up your own self-defense system. Different strokes.

Regards,

[Juan Perez]

I've been noticing this attitude alot in regards to this subject, and Mr. Ibarra's thread in particular. I would simply say that there is nothing wrong with seeking effective technique without any of the "hangups" of that go along with traditional/classical Japanese arts. However, if that is your attitude, then you simply do not belong in such arts.

There is a whole world out there of free-information exchange research, mixed martial arts, CQC, etc. that match such a mindset. Just be advised that those that wish to exploit or attach themselves to traditional arts while doing their own MMA are going to invite the political clashing and fighting that they claim to want to avoid.

There are in fact many traditional/classical martial artists out there who are able to adhere to the expectations of such traditions while at the same time adapting the principles as needed for effective modern day usage. It is possible to do both, but you must be realistic about what your own disposition and goals are. If you don't have the patience or humility to deal with the traditional "BS", then just leave them alone.

There is nothing wrong with MMA or CQC, or for that matter, making up your own self-defense system. Different strokes.

Regards,

Mr. Scott,

I am sure there are very important reasons for your high concern over these things. But, I personally couldn't care less. You are right, I don't belong in that esteemed circle of “martial” arts that you - and others - are affiliated with. Thank you for your valuable input; it has been educational for me. Have a nice day.

[Nathan Scott]

I am sure there are very important reasons for your high concern over these things. But, I personally couldn't care less. You are right, I don't belong in that esteemed circle of “martial” arts that you - and others - are affiliated with. Thank you for your valuable input; it has been educational for me. Have a nice day.

Mr. Perez,

Sorry to see you were offended by my reply. I do in fact have very important reasons for my concern, and they are the preservation of these arts. Most of them will be gone in the next generation, and the last thing they need are people thoughtlessly strip-mining them for personal gain.

What I said in my last post was logical and true, so easy with the unfounded "koryu snobbery" claim. I did not place more or less value on MMA, and I don't know what group you fall into. That is for you to decide. FWIW, koryu and traditional ryu-ha were once "martial" in the time and context they were developed in. However, it takes more than a passing level of initiation in such arts to understand them deeply enough to effectively adapt them to modern self-defense, and that is where most ex-students make their mistake.

[Juan Perez]

Mr. Perez,

Sorry to see you were offended by my reply.

Sir,

Your assumption is incorrect. I'm not offended. Again, thank you for your input.

[SoldierNurse]

It amazes me how some here have chosen to bash, judge, and pretend to know a particular individual when in fact they have never met in person. I'm a moderator on two other sites. I've seen many times where the lines of communication are lost via the WWW.

I can respect the idea of preserving the traditional martial arts. I can also appreciate those that have studied the traditional martial arts under reputable teachers. Furthermore, to be able to use the skills and principles learned via traditional means and transform them to modern day self-defense application is the direction some of us leans towards.

I have heard & appreciate the philosophy; it is not the martial art style one chooses to practice, but how well the individual uses what has been learned. How well one is effective in his/her practice cannot be qualified via message board chatter. IMHO, this Thread has long past it's worthiness.

May all have a Merry Christmas & a happy, healthy, and honorable new year.

[Nathan Scott]

Hello Mr. Barrett,

Thanks for posting.


It amazes me how some here have chosen to bash, judge, and pretend to know a particular individual when in fact they have never met in person.

I'm not sure what you're talking about - where has anyone on this thread bashed, judged or pretended to know anyone? None of this is the subject of this thread, and the only real bashing I've seen has been directed at me.

For some reason many lost sight of the subject of a given thread like this. As you stated, you can not evaluate a person's effectiveness over the internet. Discussing such points is a waste of time. Not only has Mr. Ibarra's technical skills not been brought into question, I have more or less complimented him if he is as good at jujutsu as some have said here. But this has nothing to do with whether or not he has the right to use the patch of an art he is not a member of for his own art (misrepresentation), or for that matter, even use the Daito-ryu name. That is the only question I have raised, and is the only thing that is being contested. All the rest is irrelvant to this discussion, or that matter, most internet discussions.

And FWIW, if I wasn't clear in one of my previous posts, I am one of those who studies traditional arts with a goal of eventually adapting the principles to modern day H2H. It is in fact possible to do this without creating your own art/branch, and while respecting and preserving the art you are studying. Such an approach may not suit everyones needs and mentalities, but for those that it does suit, it is possible to do. BTW, if it makes anyone feel any better, I freely admit that I would NOT be well suited for mixed martial arts or competitive arts/sports. I don't even like regular sports. This thread is not a "we're better than you" type of BS, so please don't make it into something that it is not.

So if anyone is still unclear as to what the subject of this thread is, or why I feel justified for writing what I've said, please feel free to post back to this thread of PM me directly. I don't have anything personal against Mr. Ibarra, and I have in fact seen a video tape he appeared on from some years ago.

Regards,

[SoldierNurse]

Hello Mr. Barrett,

Thanks for posting.



I'm not sure what you're talking about - where has anyone on this thread bashed, judged or pretended to know anyone? None of this is the subject of this thread, and the only real bashing I've seen has been directed at me.

For some reason many lost sight of the subject of a given thread like this. As you stated, you can not evaluate a person's effectiveness over the internet. Discussing such points is a waste of time. Not only has Mr. Ibarra's technical skills not been brought into question, I have more or less complimented him if he is as good at jujutsu as some have said here. But this has nothing to do with whether or not he has the right to use the patch of an art he is not a member of for his own art (misrepresentation), or for that matter, even use the Daito-ryu name. That is the only question I have raised, and is the only thing that is being contested. All the rest is irrelvant to this discussion, or that matter, most internet discussions.

And FWIW, if I wasn't clear in one of my previous posts, I am one of those who studies traditional arts with a goal of eventually adapting the principles to modern day H2H. It is in fact possible to do this without creating your own art/branch, and while respecting and preserving the art you are studying. Such an approach may not suit everyones needs and mentalities, but for those that it does suit, it is possible to do. BTW, if it makes anyone feel any better, I freely admit that I would NOT be well suited for mixed martial arts or competitive arts/sports. I don't even like regular sports. This thread is not a "we're better than you" type of BS, so please don't make it into something that it is not.

So if anyone is still unclear as to what the subject of this thread is, or why I feel justified for writing what I've said, please feel free to post back to this thread or PM me directly. I don't have anything personal against Mr. Ibarra, and I have in fact seen a video tape he appeared on from some years ago.Regards,
Mr. Scott [since we are being so formal], it is my understanding the original intent of this Thread was on the 7 Vol Panther Video set by Miguel Ibarra Sensei. I liked them and would like to know what others thought about the 7 Vol set using constructive comments.

However, the focus of the Thread turned to whether or not Ibarra Sensei was a desk jockey probation officer [implying he never came under hostile environment], or in fact he was involved with serving warrants to repeat felons under extreme violent circumstances. Then, this Thread turned even darker towards the credibility of Ibarra Sensei based on a PATCH.

BTW, did you like the video tape Ibarra Sensei appeared in that you viewed?

[wagnerphysed]

There is nothing dark about questioning the credible use of or implication of affiliation through the use of a logo, trademark or brand name. Were this the corporate world where these properties are protected by legislation, any individual misusing or misrepresenting their product through fraudulent labeling would be held liable and forced through court action to cease and desist while possibly paying a penalty. This would not be an action against the effectiveness of the product or the character of the products creating company. Rather, it would only bring into question the companies unauthorized use of a another company's logo, trademark or brand name.
A company or individual that replicates such things in a manner that is not exactly the same but however might confuse the consumer has questionable character. In this case, the creator of a patch that is similar to that used by an organization such as the Kodokai is misrepresenting his own art. Further, here there is no recourse other than to point out this transgression, which could possibly be an oversight, and inquire into the intent and reason behind the creation and at the same time call for the individual in question to stop using the patch.
Seems reasonable to me. I personally can't see where the problem is with where this thread has gone or where Nathan has done anything outside of decorum.

[PictonMA]

I've not seen any of the video's that Ibarra Sensei has produced so I cannot comment on their content, I can however say that I trained with Ibarra Sensei 8-10 times in the late 90s when he visited Canada for several training camps and to teach as a guest instructor at the dojo of my Sensei.

I always thoroughly enjoyed training with him and looked forward to future opportunities. The training was always hard and the techniques very effective.

I can also say that in all of my training with him (admittedly fairly limited) and in conversations with him on and off the mat he never misrepresented himself, his art or his teachings.

He is clearly someone who loves the martial arts, loves what he has been taught and has a passion for sharing that knowledge.

His reasons for wearing whatever patches he choses to are his own and while some may claim it's a misrepresentation of affiliation / lineage, I am more want to believe that its out of respect / acknowledgement of where has come from.

***

As an aside to the LEO aspect of credibility wrt to application of technique. I've seen more fat, out of shape donut eating members of the Law Enforcement community that couldn't defend themselves but for the presence of their badge and their gun then I have those who are trained martial artists that can competently use their training in situations that may arise while in the execution of their line of work.

That being said, I've also seen more "martial artists" who are paper / dojo tigers that also couldn't defend themselves to the level that they falsely think they are capable of defending themselves.

Additionally, I've met plenty of street fighters, gang members and farm boys with no formal training that are more than capable of dishing and receiving more of a beating then plenty of trained martial artists.

My point in this aside, if there really is one, is that being a LEO, martial artists, whatever doesn't by defacto virtue make you capabale of using martial arts training in real life scenarios. As such, my eyes glaze over and I skip past such claims that allude to this.

[Mark Raugas]

I think using their patch is really really bad form, especially given the history of Yonezawa selling ranks or being manipulated into selling ranks to the likes of Fred Lovret and others (regardless of his skill level at the physical techniques of his form of budo).

I wonder if part of the patch problem is Ibarra can't read Japanese and doesn't know that those characters say "Kodokai" on his patch? He definitely should not put that up on his website. FWIW, at least Ibarra didn't go and learn some Kodokai and then claim he studied a lost mountain warrior art from Dewa, like my old instructor did and continues to do (btw, Vilaire and Ibarra were at one point friends, both coming out of Miyama-ryu around the same time, and I've asked Ibarra via email more than once about whether he could provide any information about Vilaire's early training and received no response).

So, Ibarra's boldness at least has some directness about it, and to that I give him some credit. But boldness canbe a problem. For example, where the 9th or 10th dans and self-awarded kaiden ranks he lists on his website come from is a mystery to me. Someone who uses kaiden2 as an email address is probably not to be reasoned with logically. Probably too much ego and narcicism involved to do so effectively. He did say above he does not have to listen to anyone about what names or symbols he uses to represent himself.

So, in that case, the patch question can be solved easily: barring legal action, I think Kiyama or Goldberg should just visit the Bronx and tie Ibarra up into a pretzel in one of those esoteric Daito-ryu pins. But that is for the Kodokai to do, and not really for any of us to suggest. I do so only with tongue firmly planted in cheek.

On a related note, do you notice that on his youtube video, Miguel also lists Kawabe shihan of the Takumakai as one of his instructors? I remember being at a Takumakai seminar in NYC in 1999 which Ibarra attended. I didn't know his exposure to Kawabe went any further than attending a seminar or two. Is Ibarra a regular student under Rodrigo Kong at the Takumakai Dojo in New York?

Anyway, as for the people posting about how great Ibarra is as an instructor or practitioner of jujutsu, I personally was not very impressed by his level of skill, either in his video, or in briefly practicing Daito-ryu with him at that Takumakai seminar. It is nothing you wouldn't find better in other Miyama-ryu derivatives such as KAR, and the visiting Takumakai sensei was clearly leaps and bounds better at both external jujutsu and the more internal aiki aspects of the art. But that is irrelevant to the discussion.

My point in being so bold -- Brian Wagner hits the nail on the head: this discussion is about a) improper use of a trademark, and b) misrepresenting one's art. Nothing more.

Leave the "my sensei is so great" stories out of it.

Best Wishes and Happy Holidays!
Mark

P.S. A lot of this can probably be stopped ahead of time if the koryu community would not give seminars to strangers and only teach small groups of serious dedicated students. I know Takeda, in the case of Daito-ryu, taught thousands, but maybe given the current climate, this idea needs to be re-evaluated.

[miguel angel ib]

Well I thought I was finished but I guess not. First of all I do not have any self awarded ranks. All of my ranks have either been tested for or awarded by some organization or association. If you READ the information posted, it gives the names of the organizations. I am proud to say that unlike some others[traditionalists included] I have not self awarded anything.

Regarding my training, I draw a distinction between training and studying. I studied under 2 instructors[Pereira and Yonezawa] I have trained under many [Kawabe, Okabayashi, Umei, Maroteaux, Angier, Jay, Despasquale Sr., Nakamura Soke etc.].

Regarding Rodrigo Kong, he was my student[ he came to me with some excellent prior training]. I assisted in getting him introduced to the Takumakai when he first went to Japan. While there he forged his own alliance with the Takumakai and left my dojo and continued with the Takumakai. To my knowledge we are still friends and I find him to be an excellent practitioner.

For your information I have been practicing jujutsu/aikijujutsu for 40 years. I am currently 56 years young and still studying and practicing.

If you think I am arrogant because of the use of my screenname than you don't know me- I am arrogant anyway.

What's important to me is how an instructor performs on the mat and passes on the information.And I do not believe nor practice MMA, Brazilian jujutsu or anything that is in any way associated with SPORT or DO.

Mr. Scott, I would be very happy to share with YOU video of Yonezawa Shihan, Shimpo Shihan and Tokimune Takeda Soke, so you can have at least a small exposure to these practitioners since I believe you stated you never met them. I also can share with you some of the Takumakai's early training films with Okabayashi Shihan and others. I offer these to you in friendship. When I originally obtained these videos I was threatend with expulsion and being ostracized if I shared them with anyone other than authorized black belts.[I was even warned that Ninja would come in the night to punish me LOL]. If you would like to take me up on this offer please e-mail me directly for details[addresses etc.]
Miguel Ibarra

[miguel angel ib]

By the way the koryu community can't keep all of their seminars closed, they need the money to help keep bringing them over here to the states. Unfortunately the cost to train with the koryu masters is so high that you need to have a strong financial support base in order to afford them. Don't just take my word for it[I've been there, done that] but ask around. If you are financially well off you obviously wouldn't have that problem. This is what some people call "buying" your ranks. The cost of training is very high.

There are of course some groups that absorb the costs themselves and thereby suffer large financial losses. You may not be as privy to this information as I have been in the past.

Also, you can't get more arrogant than some of our koryu japanese masters so if you are going to throw stones over that don't start with us here in the states. That can also be a learned attitude from our masters. I must say the humblest individuals i have met to date in Daito Ryu were Okabayashi Shihan and Umei Sensei. They are both gentlemen of the highest level.

And if you interested in researching your former instructor please ask someone else not me.
Miguel Ibarra

[SoldierNurse]

There is nothing dark about questioning the credible use of or implication of affiliation through the use of a logo, trademark or brand name. Were this the corporate world where these properties are protected by legislation, any individual misusing or misrepresenting their product through fraudulent labeling would be held liable and forced through court action to cease and desist while possibly paying a penalty. This would not be an action against the effectiveness of the product or the character of the products creating company. Rather, it would only bring into question the companies unauthorized use of a another company's logo, trademark or brand name.
A company or individual that replicates such things in a manner that is not exactly the same but however might confuse the consumer has questionable character. In this case, the creator of a patch that is similar to that used by an organization such as the Kodokai is misrepresenting his own art. Further, here there is no recourse other than to point out this transgression, which could possibly be an oversight, and inquire into the intent and reason behind the creation and at the same time call for the individual in question to stop using the patch.
Seems reasonable to me. I personally can't see where the problem is with where this thread has gone or where Nathan has done anything outside of decorum.
Biography: Getting older with each day and gaining a greater understanding of how little I really know about anything and everything. - Brian Wagner

Sir, you are missing MY point. Fine, mention an observation regards to the patch once, or twice. However, the patch police have taken this Thread off topic... plain & simple. ENOUGH ALREADY! You have no right to demand someone stop using a patch. If you do have right to such, then do via PM because some us would like the Thread to get back on topic.

[SoldierNurse]

I think using their patch is really really bad form, especially given the history of Yonezawa selling ranks or being manipulated into selling ranks to the likes of Fred Lovret and others (regardless of his skill level at the physical techniques of his form of budo).

I wonder if part of the patch problem is Ibarra can't read Japanese and doesn't know that those characters say "Kodokai" on his patch? He definitely should not put that up on his website. FWIW, at least Ibarra didn't go and learn some Kodokai and then claim he studied a lost mountain warrior art from Dewa, like my old instructor did and continues to do (btw, Vilaire and Ibarra were at one point friends, both coming out of Miyama-ryu around the same time, and I've asked Ibarra via email more than once about whether he could provide any information about Vilaire's early training and received no response).

So, Ibarra's boldness at least has some directness about it, and to that I give him some credit. But boldness canbe a problem. For example, where the 9th or 10th dans and self-awarded kaiden ranks he lists on his website come from is a mystery to me. Someone who uses kaiden2 as an email address is probably not to be reasoned with logically. Probably too much ego and narcicism involved to do so effectively. He did say above he does not have to listen to anyone about what names or symbols he uses to represent himself.

So, in that case, the patch question can be solved easily: barring legal action, I think Kiyama or Goldberg should just visit the Bronx and tie Ibarra up into a pretzel in one of those esoteric Daito-ryu pins. But that is for the Kodokai to do, and not really for any of us to suggest. I do so only with tongue firmly planted in cheek.

On a related note, do you notice that on his youtube video, Miguel also lists Kawabe shihan of the Takumakai as one of his instructors? I remember being at a Takumakai seminar in NYC in 1999 which Ibarra attended. I didn't know his exposure to Kawabe went any further than attending a seminar or two. Is Ibarra a regular student under Rodrigo Kong at the Takumakai Dojo in New York?

Anyway, as for the people posting about how great Ibarra is as an instructor or practitioner of jujutsu, I personally was not very impressed by his level of skill, either in his video, or in briefly practicing Daito-ryu with him at that Takumakai seminar. It is nothing you wouldn't find better in other Miyama-ryu derivatives such as KAR, and the visiting Takumakai sensei was clearly leaps and bounds better at both external jujutsu and the more internal aiki aspects of the art. But that is irrelevant to the discussion.

My point in being so bold -- Brian Wagner hits the nail on the head: this discussion is about a) improper use of a trademark, and b) misrepresenting one's art. Nothing more.

Leave the "my sensei is so great" stories out of it.

Best Wishes and Happy Holidays!
Mark

P.S. A lot of this can probably be stopped ahead of time if the koryu community would not give seminars to strangers and only teach small groups of serious dedicated students. I know Takeda, in the case of Daito-ryu, taught thousands, but maybe given the current climate, this idea needs to be re-evaluated.
Sir, you are WRONG! The original intent of this Thread was regards to the 7 Vol Panther Video set by Miguel Ibarra Sensei.

IMHO, YOU are the overzealous one by suggesting someone do harm to another, then with disclaimer of tongue firmly planted in cheek. Sir, may suggest you remove foot from mouth and stop throwing accusations around of too much ego & narcisim... again more bashing.

How honorable is it to suggest someone do harm to another? BTW, you feel so strongly about such action, then send a PM to Ibarra Sensei and make the arrangements to attempt same on your own. How honorable is it to use the false guise of boldness to replace your own arrogance? IMHO, it is you using bold speak that I wonder if the same would take place in person?

BTW, I don't worship any man, or woman. The reason for the season is the birth of Jesus Christ. I do respect & admire those that handle adversity with honor... and IMHO Ibarra Sensei has handled this Thread honorably.

[kokumo]

Sir, you are WRONG!

BTW, I don't worship any man, or woman. The reason for the season is the birth of Jesus Christ.

Actually, no. The early Christian Fathers changed the birthdate from Spring to Winter Solstice so as to co-opt Saturnalia and other similar pre-Christian Winter Festivals, the more riotous and overconsumptive aspects of which remain the elements of the season with the greatest cultural currency.

In the Northern Hemisphere, at any rate, the reason for the season is that the days are short, the nights are long, and everybody could use a party with lots of lights and a cup of cheer to raise their spirits.

The rest is just sectarian window-dressing.

Best,

Fred Little

[SoldierNurse]

Actually, no. The early Christian Fathers changed the birthdate from Spring to Winter Solstice so as to co-opt Saturnalia and other similar pre-Christian Winter Festivals, the more riotous and overconsumptive aspects of which remain the elements of the season with the greatest cultural currency.

In the Northern Hemisphere, at any rate, the reason for the season is that the days are short, the nights are long, and everybody could use a party with lots of lights and a cup of cheer to raise their spirits.

The rest is just sectarian window-dressing.

Best,

Fred Little
Okay, I will QUOTE MYSELF, AGAIN; "BTW, I don't worship any man, or woman. The reason for the season is the birth of Jesus Christ."

Now, looks like I have to elaborate further since you jumped at the opportunity to correct me... how honorable of you, sir.

In my heart, the true meaning of Christmas is the birth of Jesus Christ. The three wisemen gave gifts to baby Jesus. We should take this time of year [thus, the season] to reflect upon the importance of the birth of Christ [thus Christmas]. I worship God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Sprit, and not any man, or woman. Did the birth of Jesus Christ actually happen on December 25th... I seriously doubt it. This I did not need you to point out. Nor, did I need you to point out that Christmas has become way too commercialized. The retail stores now days have Christmas decorations up right after halloween.

I can respect your belief in the teachings of Gautama Buddha. I'd ask you to do the same regards to my faith.

C'mon Fred [Little], I thought you were a bigger man than to go off topic with a needless mission to correct & misquote me? ;)

[George Kohler]

Sir, you are WRONG! The original intent of this Thread was regards to the 7 Vol Panther Video set by Miguel Ibarra Sensei.

Cary,

Please calm down.

Maybe you do not understand the way Mr. Scott organizes the threads here in the Aikijujutsu Forum. He puts all threads together according to the person and/or organization. If you look at other threads in the Aikijujutsu Forum you will notice that most will be associated with a person/organization no matter what the topic is. It helps when someone is searching for a particular person/organization.

So in essence, there is no "original intent" in this thread. The original subject (associated with the panther tapes) was changed by Mr. Scott and anything associated with Mr. Ibarra were merged together.

[Mark Jakabcsin]

For those that are relatively new to this forum I suggest taking a closer look at the dates of each post. That should keep you from embarasing yourself. The first 12 posts on this thread are a year and a half old, that discussion has been completed. The discussion after Nathan's 14th post is concerning the improper use of an official trademark. (PERIOD) Although I do have to point out that Mr. Ibarra's patch should be a VISA commercial, for when you learn the story behind it, it becomes PRICELESS!!! :laugh: Truly priceless.

Merry Christmas,

Mark J.

[SoldierNurse]

For those that are relatively new to this forum I suggest taking a closer look at the dates of each post. That should keep you from embarasing yourself. The first 12 posts on this thread are a year and a half old, that discussion has been completed. The discussion after Nathan's 14th post is concerning the improper use of an official trademark. (PERIOD) Although I do have to point out that Mr. Ibarra's patch should be a VISA commercial, for when you learn the story behind it, it becomes PRICELESS!!! :laugh: Truly priceless.

Merry Christmas,

Mark J.
LOL, I'm not that easily emabarrassed. I will admit to ignorrance and thank George for politely setting me straight. I'm glad you enjoyed your little laugh at me. I will say that George has a way of posting in a far more honorable way than you, Mark. IMHO, the way Nathan puts all the threads together according to the person and/or organization is rather unusal and entirely new to me. Again, I was ignorant to this particular method. I don't claim to be all knowing in all areas of life, therefore I'm certainly not embarrased by such as you implied.

What I find PRICELESS is your lack of courteousness. :p

[SoldierNurse]

Cary,

Please calm down.

Maybe you do not understand the way Mr. Scott organizes the threads here in the Aikijujutsu Forum. He puts all threads together according to the person and/or organization. If you look at other threads in the Aikijujutsu Forum you will notice that most will be associated with a person/organization no matter what the topic is. It helps when someone is searching for a particular person/organization.

So in essence, there is no "original intent" in this thread. The original subject (associated with the panther tapes) was changed by Mr. Scott and anything associated with Mr. Ibarra were merged together.
Okay, as an officer & and a gentleman I will apologize for my ignorance to the way the threads are merged here on this site. Obviously, by the few number of my post, I'm new to the way's of this site. I will remember this unique thread merging regardless of particular topic in my future reads.

BTW, George, I sent you several PM's, but have not received a reply?

[wagnerphysed]

Okay, since no one else seems to have noticed that Mr. Ibarra, who himself has said that he achieved Sandan under Yonezawa, lists himself as Kaiden and 10th dan on his website and that the proximity of this title and rank seem to indicate that this is in Daito-ryu. Or, maybe some others have noticed and maybe thay have even asked the question...but since I'm admittedly not the sharpest knife in the drawer, how and from whom did Mr. Ibarra achieve this title and level of ranking? Further, are these in Daito-ryu?

[SoldierNurse]

Okay, since no one else seems to have noticed that Mr. Ibarra, who himself has said that he achieved Sandan under Yonezawa, lists himself as Kaiden and 10th dan on his website and that the proximity of this title and rank seem to indicate that this is in Daito-ryu. Or, maybe some others have noticed and maybe thay have even asked the question...but since I'm admittedly not the sharpest knife in the drawer, how and from whom did Mr. Ibarra achieve this title and level of ranking? Further, are these in Daito-ryu?
IMHO, you could send this directly to the source, especially since Ibarra Sensei already made similar request on a previous post;

MY direct e-mail is kaiden2@verizon.net. Please feel free to contact me directly since I do not normally respond to any forums or chat room discussions. I only answered this time out of respect for Mr. Scott since he contacted me directly.

Well there's not much else for me to say. Thanks again. Stay healthy and may all of you here at this forum have a safe and healthy holiday season.
Miguel Ibarra, Kaiden Shihan
Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Yamabushi Kai

[Nathan Scott]

Hello all,

This thread is truly unique, I'll say that much.

Apologies if the thread management is confusing. I organize them this way in hopes of consolidating subject matter and improving searches (reducing the amount people have to read bits and pieces about someone in numerous related threads). The title of this thread is "Miguel Ibarra / DR AJJ Yamabushi-kai (Icho yama-ryu)", so it is advised to go by the thread titles rather than the subject of the first post. Again, sorry if this is confusing to new comers.


His reasons for wearing whatever patches he choses to are his own and while some may claim it's a misrepresentation of affiliation / lineage, I am more want to believe that its out of respect / acknowledgement of where has come from.

Mr. Bilodeau,

Even if someone has the best intentions when using the designs of another person/art, the fact still remains that it is an unauthorized usage.


P.S. A lot of this can probably be stopped ahead of time if the koryu community would not give seminars to strangers and only teach small groups of serious dedicated students. I know Takeda, in the case of Daito-ryu, taught thousands, but maybe given the current climate, this idea needs to be re-evaluated.

Mr. Raugus,

Good point. Mr. Ibarra does have a point though, at least in regards to the extremely lean interest there is in actually joining a koryu art and training. It's tough to attract the appropriate students while at the same time not advertising it like a business. No easy answer I guess.


Mr. Scott, I would be very happy to share with YOU video of Yonezawa Shihan, Shimpo Shihan and Tokimune Takeda Soke, so you can have at least a small exposure to these practitioners since I believe you stated you never met them. I also can share with you some of the Takumakai's early training films with Okabayashi Shihan and others. I offer these to you in friendship. When I originally obtained these videos I was threatend with expulsion and being ostracized if I shared them with anyone other than authorized black belts.[I was even warned that Ninja would come in the night to punish me LOL]. If you would like to take me up on this offer please e-mail me directly for details[addresses etc.]

That sounds like a very kind offer. I believe you extended this offer to me some years ago, but I never heard back from you after I replied. In any event, I'll email you about it as soon as I get a chance. Thanks.

Is everyone feeling better yet?

[SoldierNurse]

Hello all,

This thread is truly unique, I'll say that much.

Apologies if the thread management is confusing. I organize them this way in hopes of consolidating subject matter and improving searches (reducing the amount people have to read bits and pieces about someone in numerous related threads). The title of this thread is "Miguel Ibarra / DR AJJ Yamabushi-kai (Icho yama-ryu)", so it is advised to go by the thread titles rather than the subject of the first post. Again, sorry if this is confusing to new comers.
...
Is everyone feeling better yet?
Mr. Scott I do appreciate your kind reply. Thank you, sir. Maybe your latest post will lead this thread back on to an honorable path. ;)

[miguel angel ib]

Mr. Scott, sorry for not following up earlier however if you send me your address I will be happy to forward said copies to you asap.

For everyone's information: my Kaiden, Shihan and 10Deg. do not come from any Japanese based Daito Ryu organizations. They have been awarded to me by various organizations from Europe, Canada and the United States, some of these date back to 1991. As I have stated before my official rank in Daito Ryu is Sandan and I specialize in the practical applications of techniques not the execution of kata . Again, if anyone cares to read the references which Mr. Scott has been so kind to point out in this thread you will see that from day one I have been forthright regarding all of my ranks and organizational ties. I only answer these questions because I have a responsibility to my students to make sure that they are clear as to my background and to make sure that I respond to those that attempt to besmirch my character.

As to the suggestions that a certain 2 individuals visit me and wrap me into a pretzel, obviously there is confusion in the ranks regarding dojo ability and effective ability when it comes to the 2 gentlemen mentioned. By the way I highly respect both individuals as consumate martial arts practitioners on the mat and would not do or say anything to offend them.
Miguel ibarra

[miguel angel ib]

Mr. Raugas, my dojo address is publicly listed perhaps you'd like to visit and make your suggestions in person. It could be fun, going back to the early days of martial arts practice in Japan a la Bronx.
Miguel Ibarra
NB: I would have thought that calling for someone to be physically assaulted would have been against the posting rules or was that not as personal as the statements I made in the post that was removed? Intersting!

[Juan Perez]

So, in that case, the patch question can be solved easily: barring legal action, I think Kiyama or Goldberg should just visit the Bronx and tie Ibarra up into a pretzel in one of those esoteric Daito-ryu pins.

Mr. Raugas,

Are you in a position to suggest this directly to those two acclaimed martial artists, or are you using their names and reputations in your post in order to add the gravitas it would otherwise not possess? If injecting a physical aspect to your post is any suggestion of your own predisposition, would you not visit Mr. Ibarra himself and discuss how you'd arrange the encounter?

Suggestion: When writing to other people on an internet board, imagine that they are within arms reach and give them the proper respect according to how you would speak to them face to face. 1) This makes it so that you are civil with others as a matter of form. 2) It prevents cowardly insinuations against others that you would not otherwise do to their presence. Sir, have a Merry Christmas.

JP

[Nathan Scott]

NB: I would have thought that calling for someone to be physically assaulted would have been against the posting rules or was that not as personal as the statements I made in the post that was removed? Intersting!

If I, or others on this forum, really believed that Mr. Raugus was attempting to incite senior members of the Kodokai to physically assault you, then yes - I would reprimand the poster and edit it out of their post. After reading Mr. Raugus' post, I observed him to go back and forth between basically not agreeing with your actions and giving you credit where he believed credit was due. In other words, I got the impression that he was not purely against you, but simply had strong opinions about a few aspects of what you do. Yes, his statement about the two gentlemen visiting you was kind of borderline, but it seemed to me he was reasonably careful in not trying to word his thoughts in a way that crossed that line. There was no name calling or degrading assumptions made in his post that I saw, outside of his statements he made that were qualified as his opinion based on direct experience.

However, I try not to impose my personal sense of what people should or shouldn't be offended by, so if you feel that Mr. Raugus was clearly trying to initiate a credible - if not veiled - threat against you, then I will edit that comment out of the affected posts in the spirit of objectiveness and fairness.

Of course, if I do that though, I would also have to edit your response to him, in which you make basically a similar threat, but more directly:


Mr. Raugas, my dojo address is publicly listed perhaps you'd like to visit and make your suggestions in person. It could be fun, going back to the early days of martial arts practice in Japan a la Bronx.

Another idea would be - folks, let's try to keep our tempers in check, and keep the e-budo posting guidelines in mind before hitting "submit".

For those reading, please also note that we are in the habit of allowing - and even encouraging - comments both for and against a given person or subject being discussed. Readers are always encouraged to evaluate the information presented in forums such as this for themselves, and then formulate their own opinions based on the credibility of what has been posted.

Regards,

[elder999]

Anyway, as for the people posting about how great Ibarra is as an instructor or practitioner of jujutsu, I personally was not very impressed by his level of skill, either in his video, or in briefly practicing Daito-ryu with him at that Takumakai seminar. It is nothing you wouldn't find better in other Miyama-ryu derivatives such as KAR, -.

Actually, I'm fairly certain that the individual in question (Vilaire) was never ranked in Miyama-ryu, or certainly is not currently listed as ever holding any rank.

I'm inclined to think that you wouldn't find better.(not to stir things up with another off-topic thread drift, or anything.....)

[wagnerphysed]

I'm sorry for pressing the issue Mr. Ibarra, I've met you before in the early 90's and my impression was, and I believe it is accurate, that you are a very genuine individual. However, the fact remains that all I have been able to glean from the links provided by Nathan Scott is the following:
"Miguel Ibarra, Kaiden Shihan of the Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Yamabushi Kai, received his training under Prof. A. Pereira and Katsumi Yonezawa, Soshi Shihan of Daito Ryu Bokuyokan. He has furthered his studies of Daito Ryu by training under R. Okabayashi and T. Kawabe, both of whom hold the Kyoju Dairi in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. He has also studied Takeda Ryu under H. Nakamura 10th dan Takeda Ryu and R. Maroteaux 7th dan Takeda Ryu." and this "Aikijujutsu complete videos now available thru black belt
demonstrated by Shihan Miguel Ibarra, 8th dan Kaiden Shihan and Sensei Rene' Ibarra, menkyo." This was straight off your website.
This indicates that your rank in Daito-ryu is higher than Sandan, as awarded by Yonezawa. Are these ranks and titles limited to your specific ha? If so, how did you achieve them? Or, are these pieces of information marketing misprints that have yet to be resolved? I'm sure it is also possible that there is another interpretation or explanation that I have missed. If so, would you be so kind as to explain?

[Izzyzx]

Hello! I was hoping to get opinions on the 7 (600 minute) volume Aikijujutsu DVD set by Miguel Ibarra. I thinking of buying the set, but there seems to be little said about Miguel Ibarra, or the quality of his videos. Thank You, Roy :)

Hello Roy, I have the videos and I have studied with Shihan Ibbara. The tapes, like any other training videos you have to be accompany them with hands on training. You can buy a video on how to build a brick wall, but unless to train and practice with a master mason (you may build a wall) your wall will look like crap.

Shihan Ibbara holds a number of seminars annually and he has a small dojo in NY. He has never turned away a martial artist looking for knowledge or looking to add some good effective techniques to their MA arsenal.

As for Aiki-Jujutsu, we live in America not in Japan. Japanese methods of training and movement are great if your final goal is to achieve some form of spiritual training. Shihan Ibbara has 10 active black belts training today and none of them would want to put their personal safety or the safety of others in Daito Ryu. It’s a beautiful art good for self-development, but in a street fight or arresting a crack head, Yamabushi Jujutsu is the most effective art.

With Respect

[Mark Raugas]

Miguel et al:

What part of "tounge planted firmly in cheek" (i.e. I am joking) did you miss?

To recap the argument, not the joke:

Roy Goldberg is the East Coast director of Kodokai and Kiyama is his teacher. If the Kodokai has a problem with Miguel's advertising, let them deal with it. They've never met me. I would be happy for the opportunity to one day take a seminar from them. I think the opportunity you had to earn a third dan in Daito-ryu Kodokai was a great one and that rank is a great accomplishment. My hope is if you guys do ever get together, it is to share old training stories and drink mojitos.

I am free to say I think it your use or misuse of that organization's name is done in very poor form. And there's nothing cowardly about calling you out on it. Frankly, it shows a lack of courage in the business world to rip off other people's trademarks or business names and not build up one's own brand, regardless of the business you are in.

Say hypothetically I worked at Motorola and was an engineer designing cell phones. I learned all about cell phone design while there. I even got a diploma honoring my professional excellence in cell phone design. I then later quit working at Motorola or was fired. I go into business making my own cell phones. You can be sure it would be improper or illegal for me to use the Motorola logo on my cell phones, or say my cellphones were Motorola cellphones, even if they were better in every respect, even if I was the guy designing their cellphones in the first place!

A trademark is about a legal identity associated to a good or service, not the quality of the good or service. So statements in your defense about how great you are at budo have nothing to do with using another art's name on the front page of your professional website. Even if it is "just" in Japanese -- the kanji on that graphic is not part of the artwork, it is writing that says "Kodokai".

Now, if you had been a high-ranking practioner of Daito-ryu and then had a falling out with your teacher for some reason, it is not inconceivable you might found your own Daito-ryu branch -- like Yonezawa did with Daito-ryu Bukyokan. It would then be up to the parent organization to take issue with that or not. But if you were not licensed to teach Daito-ryu Kodokai, how can you found Daito-ryu Yamabushikai? And if you are teaching Daito-ryu Yamabushikai, why then put the kanji for Kodokai on your patch / website graphic? Why not put the kanji for Bukyokai on it, if you are still train with them?

It is all quite ambiguous and confusing. People might mistakenly think you are teaching Kodokai, when you are not -- you are teaching Daito-ryu techniques you, to paraphrase, modified and improved for self-defense purposes.

I give you credit for being honest about where your training came from and the ranks you were awarded in those arts. The "kaiden shihan" and "10th dan" stuff from various soke boards and organizations and people like Maroteaux in France do little to enhance your image, in my opinion, and in fact detract from it, confusing people about what rank was earned inside an organization, and what rank was honorary in nature. The big list makes you wind up looking little better in my opinion than Ronald Duncan, and you seem to have a solid and practical self-defense curriculum to offer people. So, that winds up being a bit of a shame. If people gave you those recognitions, just leave them off the website and in the desk drawer where they belong. Sometimes less is more.

Regarding my opinions of your skill, I don't know why saying you are not as good at Daito-ryu as Umei (or I imagine his senior, Kawabe, whom you list as a teacher in your video footage) of the Takumakai, whom you were learning from, is cause for you to get upset. Maybe your modified Kodokai waza are more effective for serving warrants than Takumakai waza -- I have no idea, since I only saw you practice Takumakai waza that day. But that would be getting into a whole different argument about what line of Daito-ryu is better than another, and what the point of aiki-jujutsu is to begin with. I am definitely not qualified to make any guesses in those directions.

I merely stated my opinion of your performance of the external level of jujutsu present in the Takumakai waza I saw that day, as well as the aiki type techniques such as aiki age and aiki sage being taught that day. I was quite impressed with the visiting Takumakai instructor and would have been very happy to train with him again, but I did not feel your technique to be so great that I quit doing what I was doing at the time to go train with you.

Surely my loss.

But, back to the analogy in hand, to further clarify my remarks: Miyama-ryu is partly based on aikido. If I said I thought from watching video clips, I think Ueshiba and Shioda were better at throwing people than you, would you take it as an insult? Would your students start jumping up and down talking about how Ueshiba and Shioda would not know how to survive walking down Castle Hill Avenue at night? Would that be relevant?
I posit instead that would be absurd.

I don't see the need to travel three hundred miles to step on your mat to prove you are better at Daito-ryu than me, when the statement was that you were not as good as someone else. Furthermore, I would hope you were better at Daito-ryu than me, as I don't even practice Daito-ryu.

But we've already worked out twice, my opinion is my own, and everyone can feel free to ignore it. I'll skip the trip to Yates Avenue in the Bronx and concentrate my time and resources on my current training instead.

Anyone at all who is bothered by your advertising should be free to complain and voice their opinion that you should stop. You are entitled not to listen, and it is up to the Kodokai, not any of us, to figure out if they care enough to do anything about it. Maybe they don't.

In the meantime, my point has been made. Your students may continue to defend you, as loyal students often do. Having felt free to complain and having complained to my heart's content, I'll be happily signing off this thread, probably to the relief of most.

Best Wishes,
Mark Raugas

Moderators: feel free to edit or delete as needed -- however, nothing here is written in rancor. [My humor is not the best sometimes, but I've tried to refrain from any sarcasm or irony in above prose.]

[SoldierNurse]

Hello Roy, I have the videos and I have studied with Shihan Ibbara. The tapes, like any other training videos you have to be accompany them with hands on training. You can buy a video on how to build a brick wall, but unless to train and practice with a master mason (you may build a wall) your wall will look like crap.

Shihan Ibbara holds a number of seminars annually and he has a small dojo in NY. He has never turned away a martial artist looking for knowledge or looking to add some good effective techniques to their MA arsenal.

As for Aiki-Jujutsu, we live in America not in Japan. Japanese methods of training and movement are great if your final goal is to achieve some form of spiritual training. Shihan Ibbara has 10 active black belts training today and none of them would want to put their personal safety or the safety of others in Daito Ryu. It’s a beautiful art good for self-development, but in a street fight or arresting a crack head, Yamabushi Jujutsu is the most effective art.

With Respect
Good thoughts & excellent post, IMHO!

[miguel angel ib]

My skill in daito ryu is of the most basic level as is my jujutsu skill for I am still learning and seeking improvement in my techniques. I was not offended by your comments re: my skill level because I don't care one way or the other. I only care about the opinion of the perps I have dealt with and put away. As I mentioned I do not do sport and so do not compete with anyone on any level except to survive[but that's for keeps]. I also do not get on the mat with anyone to show how good I may or may not be at performing techniques but I have had the opportunity to do so for survival. I have performed in many parts of this country,Canada and Europe and I guess there must be a lot of people with poor judgement because I have been well received and invited back for more. So you see your opinion although greta to get print is of little to no value to me. My seniors' opinions[Pereira, Depasquale, Jay, Maroteaux etc] do matter to me and so I listen to them.

As to my ranks, again, I accept whatever is given to me that I do not pay for and you know what, I am not insulted to be placed in the same category with Ronald Duncan. he has been training for many years probably more than some people on this forum. If you do not recognize the groups and organizations that have granted me ranks and honors so be it. I don' think anyone died and left you to be the authority on recognition. If they did please let me know, I am always willing to bow to a higher supreme being. Additionally, he is also involved in the investigative fields and has shown his ways to be practical. And I have always found him to be a gentleman as well.

Vilaire obviously left a bad taste in your mouth. For the record, he never trained in MiYama Ryu under Shinan Pereira. He did study Mi Yama Ryu under one of Pereira's Black belts. I first met him when I discussed the similarities of KAR with MYR. He then explained his additional training and ranks which I have not been inclined to investigate or research since I found him to be talented and he always treated me with respect as I did him.

I have heard many things said about him since he left NY but then again I hear a lot of things about me to. Perhaps you can contact Mr. Tony Anessi since I believe he knew Mr.. Vilaire long before I met him. Don't flatter yourself by taking my invitation as one to work out but rather to "discuss" your suggestions.

Lastly, believe me I haven't paid any of the individuals who have written in support of me but I do thank them.

So, have a nice day.
Miguel Ibarra

[miguel angel ib]

Mi Yama Ryu is based on Judo, Aikido, Japanese Jujutsu and American Self defense techniques. Shinan Pereira was a 6th dan in Judo and Sho Mokuroku in Sosuishi Ryu Jujutsu under Shitama Sensei in addition to extensive training in other arts.

[Samurai Jack]

Hello,

I would like to thank Mr. Ibarra for taking the time to respond. Mr. Ibarra, after reading your responses I didn't read , could be per my error, any direct response explaining the stark similarities between that of the Kodokai symbol and yours; as well as, the use of the Kodokai characters present in your symbol as pointed out by Mr. Nathan Scott. Do you mind directly addressing that issue specifically and in more detail?

Also, if you don't mind, please discuss why you feel that your current use of your symbol, so closely related to that of the Kodokai, represents you and your background?


Thank you for your time and your response.

[Juan Perez]

Wow, we are still talking about this. You know, uniforms look much better without patches. :)

[Samurai Jack]

I have noticed that Mr. Ibarra has posted recently on another thread; therefore, it can be reasoned Mr. Ibarra has no interest in answering my fundamental questions regarding his unofficial use of Kodo-kai property in his, per se, signage which he uses to represent himself and his organization.

Thus, I would hate to assume no answer from Mr. Ibarra means... well... do I have to say it? This is too bad. But, at least it is clear that we, the public, are now aware of Mr. Ibarra's intent and actions regarding this topic.

I guess the truth in martial arts, like in advertising is hard to come by! I would hope we all work toward truth and honesty, in order to better ourselves and those we teach.


Because of Nathan Scott's attentiveness to this matter the martial arts are now better for it. Without Nathan Scott to give us a heads up, and thus provided us, the public, with accurate information we would be sheep.

If Mr. Ibarra would like to make me eat my words and have the honor of leaving me with egg on my face, I still invite him to do so. :)

[Juan Perez]

we would be sheep.

LOL ... speak for yourself. I don't ever consider myself a "sheep".

But, you and Nathan brought forward some interesting points during the thread. Does the organization in Japan even care about this specific issue at the moment? Has any other such organization taken legal action in recent years regarding a similar incident (that you know of)? This is an interesting side-topic.

As per the last part of your thread, I don't think Mr. Ibarra will take your bait. He doesn't seem to care what you think (I don't mean this in a denigrating manner towards you). Again, you guys brought out some really interesting points.

As an aside, translate this into Spanish: "... have the honor of leaving me with egg on my face, I still invite him to do so."

It really sounds hillarious to a Spanish speaker. I don't think Mr. Ibarra is interest in putting "huevo" on your face even if you invite him to.

[George Kohler]

It really sounds hillarious to a Spanish speaker. I don't think Mr. Ibarra is interest in putting "huevo" on your face even if you invite him to.

Juan,

you owe me a new monitor.

I wouldn't want to put my "huevos" in anyone's face. :)

[Juan Perez]

Juan,

you owe me a new monitor.

I wouldn't want to put my "huevos" in anyone's face. :)

Was it coffee that ended up on your monitor? I'll look around DRMO to see if I have a new monitor around. :p

[Samurai Jack]

LOL ... speak for yourself. I don't ever consider myself a "sheep".

But, you and Nathan brought forward some interesting points during the thread. Does the organization in Japan even care about this specific issue at the moment? Has any other such organization taken legal action in recent years regarding a similar incident (that you know of)? This is an interesting side-topic.

As per the last part of your thread, I don't think Mr. Ibarra will take your bait. He doesn't seem to care what you think (I don't mean this in a denigrating manner towards you). Again, you guys brought out some really interesting points.

As an aside, translate this into Spanish: "... have the honor of leaving me with egg on my face, I still invite him to do so."

It really sounds hillarious to a Spanish speaker. I don't think Mr. Ibarra is interest in putting "huevo" on your face even if you invite him to.

To answer you, Mr. Perez, first of all, I don't think interjecting crude humor in this post is would be respectful to all parties involved, certainly to Mr. Ibarra to degrade him to such an act. It is clear what I meant; it is my intent to provide him a discussion of respect and intellect. It is not my intent to make fun of him or the Spanish language. This leads to my third response.

Second of all, the word "sheep" is coded. It is in relation to a splinter group of the Kodo-kai. I think you already are aware of that.


That is I am not baiting Mr. Ibarra. I just provided him with an opportunity to discuss respectfully something he had done. If I am not mistaken he has removed from his website the symbol of discussion.

I would think Japan Kodo-kai cares; it is foolish not to think otherwise. Why would then not care, are they not a very conservative group? Kondo Sensei on his new website cares about others using his organization's name. Also, if I am not mistaken the matter rights isn't something Japanese martial arts lends to. There are far less lawyers in numbers in Japan then say Europe or the USA, and that say allot. I don't think the Kodo-Kai needed, maybe now, staff of lawyers to protect its self from right infringements. This is a matter concerning integrity and honesty, and clarifications.


The Kodo-kai, like other similar arts, being a conservative group doesn't let out much information and I believe the reason is clear per Mr. Ibarra. I think as a result it is their way of protecting themselves and their rights in their Japanese way. This creates a problem, first of all it allows others to, per se, steal their identity and techniques and take credit for them. Conservative groups don't have the capital, means or resources to internationally protect their rights, say like McDonalds can. The other thing is being conservative they don't "open" stuff up hence we on the outside lack the proper information to be discernable. For example, try and find the Kodo-kai symbol, it is not widely known or recognized. Thus, it is easy for a dishonest person to misrepresent themselves by saying their symbol is that of Kodo-kai. As the public, we then are at the mercy of those who are dishonest. We are then tricked and mislead by falsehoods and misrepresentation when we lack the proper information. Yet, by providing the public with accurate information, a conservative group opens itself to more and greater abuse. Thus, a conservative group is at a disadvantage in protecting themselves from abuse, and misinformation.

What helps these groups protect themselves is people like Nathan Scott and E-Budo devote themselves to knowledge of what is accurate and what isn't. We rely on such people to provide us with the truth in face of dishonesty, misrepresentation and fraud.

Fraud hurts us all. There are thousands of hours of thread here that prove that.

Understand, I have neither judged nor convicted Mr. Ibarra. I do have an opinion on why he has not answered my questions. I want to hear in his own words why he felt the need to use Kodo-kai property unofficially, and how his use represents him and his background. I would also ask why he didn't use the other symbols or parts of them from the other Daito ryu group(s) he studied? Why the Kodo-kai. Though I am not holding my breath (not to be translated in Latin, or any other language).

Though I think vampair is translated by Mexican Spanish as Sheep blood sucker?

[elder999]

Second of all, the word "sheep" is coded. It is in relation to a splinter group of the Kodo-kai. I think you already are aware of that.



Another "tung" in cheek comment?

[Juan Perez]

To answer you, Mr. Perez, first of all, I don't think interjecting crude humor in this post is would be respectful to all parties involved, certainly to Mr. Ibarra to degrade him to such an act. It is clear what I meant; it is my intent to provide him a discussion of respect and intellect. It is not my intent to make fun of him or the Spanish language. This leads to my third response.

Second of all, the word "sheep" is coded. It is in relation to a splinter group of the Kodo-kai. I think you already are aware of that.


That is I am not baiting Mr. Ibarra. I just provided him with an opportunity to discuss respectfully something he had done. If I am not mistaken he has removed from his website the symbol of discussion.

I would think Japan Kodo-kai cares; it is foolish not to think otherwise. Why would then not care, are they not a very conservative group? Kondo Sensei on his new website cares about others using his organization's name. Also, if I am not mistaken the matter rights isn't something Japanese martial arts lends to. There are far less lawyers in numbers in Japan then say Europe or the USA, and that say allot. I don't think the Kodo-Kai needed, maybe now, staff of lawyers to protect its self from right infringements. This is a matter concerning integrity and honesty, and clarifications.


The Kodo-kai, like other similar arts, being a conservative group doesn't let out much information and I believe the reason is clear per Mr. Ibarra. I think as a result it is their way of protecting themselves and their rights in their Japanese way. This creates a problem, first of all it allows others to, per se, steal their identity and techniques and take credit for them. Conservative groups don't have the capital, means or resources to internationally protect their rights, say like McDonalds can. The other thing is being conservative they don't "open" stuff up hence we on the outside lack the proper information to be discernable. For example, try and find the Kodo-kai symbol, it is not widely known or recognized. Thus, it is easy for a dishonest person to misrepresent themselves by saying their symbol is that of Kodo-kai. As the public, we then are at the mercy of those who are dishonest. We are then tricked and mislead by falsehoods and misrepresentation when we lack the proper information. Yet, by providing the public with accurate information, a conservative group opens itself to more and greater abuse. Thus, a conservative group is at a disadvantage in protecting themselves from abuse, and misinformation.

What helps these groups protect themselves is people like Nathan Scott and E-Budo devote themselves to knowledge of what is accurate and what isn't. We rely on such people to provide us with the truth in face of dishonesty, misrepresentation and fraud.

Fraud hurts us all. There are thousands of hours of thread here that prove that.

Understand, I have neither judged nor convicted Mr. Ibarra. I do have an opinion on why he has not answered my questions. I want to hear in his own words why he felt the need to use Kodo-kai property unofficially, and how his use represents him and his background. I would also ask why he didn't use the other symbols or parts of them from the other Daito ryu group(s) he studied? Why the Kodo-kai. Though I am not holding my breath (not to be translated in Latin, or any other language).

Though I think vampair is translated by Mexican Spanish as Sheep blood sucker?

If you, or anyone else is offended ( :rolleyes: )... grow thicker skin. Or, if you are really, really offended, shoot a PM to George Kohler and let him know.

[wagnerphysed]

The bottom lines are as follows: (and of course all of these are all just my opinions based on my observation.) :)

1. There are groups of martial artists that believe that everything rests on talent and recognition of that talent. Another way of putting this is that they are capable of making their arts work or their arts work for them and therefore their arts are legitimate. Further, many people have recognized that their arts work and have reinforced and continue to reinforce this belief. Their is a very strong behavioral component and reward (personal) system connected to these beliefs and it really doesn't matter what anyone outside of this belief system says or presents, these people are not going to change their beliefs or their perceptions. Names are not necessarily a link to the past as much as they are descriptors of the types of movements or style that an artist portrays. Rank and titles are a entirely different matter.

2. There are groups of martial artists that believe that all martial arts come from an origin, a beginning, and that in order for arts to be genuine or authentic in their transmission there must somehow be a link to this origin. It is completely a lack of etiquette and an affront to an art to use a name of an art without some legitimate link to it's origin. Further, rank and titles are issued as a logical step in the transmission of specific levels of the art in question. It would be impossible to be ranked higher than the specific teacher. Nor could a practitioner earn a tittle that was above or higher than the tittle of his or her teacher. Even more important, no one without a legitimate link to the origin or founder of a particular school could bestow a tittle that had anything to do with the school in question.

Gentlemen, we are ruled by our perceptions. It is important to remember that in our discussions we are dealing with each other, individuals, people who have different perceptions of what is important, what is real, what is sacred and what is sacrosanct. One man's terrorist is another's patriot. One man's trash is another's treasure. There is no way that I will change your mind as to what is ethical if you do not already share my perspective on ethics.

What then is left to us? We can agree to disagree!

More importantly, when the ethical and legal line has been crossed, it is up to, and important for, the entities that hold legal claim to tittles and names to exercise their legal rights and hold those crossing the lines legally responsible for their lack of judgment. That translates into orders to cease and desist as well as monetary damages and compensation. There are consequences, good and bad, for all of our actions.

Personally, nothing is wrong with 1. until people transgress into 2. in other words, more power to you for making up your own arts, i.e. Ueshiba and Aikido. Please, feel free to give yourself and accept any tittle you see fit from any body that sees fit to bestow it upon you be it Japanese or other. However, leave the name of century old arts out of it. Further, if you have some background in a century old art, don't claim rank higher than what you earned in that art unless someone authorized by that art and ranked high enough to bestow the rank or tittle upon you did so. To be blunt, no one outside of Daito-ryu is capable of issuing rank or tittle within Daito-ryu.

In order to issue Daito-ryu rank and tittles, the person must hold legitimate rank and tittles in Daito-ryu that would allow them to award the rank and tittle received. Further, this branch of Daito-ryu must be a branch that can legitimately show lineage back to Takeda Sokaku (unlike saigo-ha). Without this level of rank and tittle or link it's just one big fantasy, no matter how good or talented an individual may be. :nono:

Again, this is just my opinon! :cool: And I am more than Happy to agree to disagree! :beer:

[miguel angel ib]

Nicely put. Thank you. Food for thought: Daito Ryu is in fact not an ancient art but a modern art with ancient roots, if one subcribes to the belief that Sokaku Takeda is the originator of "modern" daito ryu as has been proposed by some. What do you think?
Thanks
Miguel Ibarra

[miguel angel ib]

Hello Mr. Jack. I haven't answered because I am not so inclined. I have no interest in putting egg in anyone's face for I usually mind my own business and leave everyone else alone to mind theirs. Trading unfounded insults on the net is just NOT NICE.
I have not removed my symbol from my sites, however after such a lively and interesting discussion I have decided to make some alterations because apparently to not do so will continue to give some people an impression of me and my group that I do not wish to foster. For example I AM NOT a fraud as you insinuate. And much like Mr. Scott and others on this site, have spent 40 years of my life studying and training in these arts which have not only saved my life but have helped to keep me sane and level.

I try to meet every man on the level so that we can be honest with each other but I find it difficult to so in an internet chat room where comments lack the emotional and physical expression to be fully understood and lack the ability to look someone in the eye to properly evaluate and understand the meaning of what is being said.

So if you would like to ask me questions regarding history, custom, techs. etc I will be happy to respond but I will not respond to questions as to whys and wherefores-my father died a long time ago and I retired from my job so there's not too many people left to whom I owe that priviledge.[my mother is still alive so she counts].

Hopefully this will finally put an end to this issue and we can move on.
Miguel Ibarra

[miguel angel ib]

Mr. Wagner, aside from my official ranks in MiYama Ryu and Daito Ryu, my ranks are in Daito Ryu Yamabushi Kai. As we all know ranks are specific to the style, ryu or system you are practicing and are not interchangeable[even from one daito ryu organization to another]. If you were to ever notice I have never indicated any of my high ranks as Daito Ryu by itself. So I hope this anwers your question. Also a quick perusal of any of my public materials will clearly show who has awarded, given, presented each and every rank. Are they all necessarily of the highest honor? LOL But awarded they were.
Miguel Ibarra

[jdostie]

Mr. Wagner, aside from my official ranks in MiYama Ryu and Daito Ryu, my ranks are in Daito Ryu Yamabushi Kai. As we all know ranks are specific to the style, ryu or system you are practicing and are not interchangeable[even from one daito ryu organization to another]. If you were to ever notice I have never indicated any of my high ranks as Daito Ryu by itself. So I hope this anwers your question. Also a quick perusal of any of my public materials will clearly show who has awarded, given, presented each and every rank. Are they all necessarily of the highest honor? LOL But awarded they were.
Miguel Ibarra


Sir:

Would you be so kind as to explain - and this is an honest question from someone who doesn't know, not a slam as I am afraid it could sound - is Yamabushi a seperate art, and then Daito Ryu Yamabushi a "blend" of those arts into a new system? That is what I am now gathering from your last comment.

Thanks

[Samurai Jack]

Hello Mr. Jack. I haven't answered because I am not so inclined. I have no interest in putting egg in anyone's face for I usually mind my own business and leave everyone else alone to mind theirs. Trading unfounded insults on the net is just NOT NICE.
I have not removed my symbol from my sites, however after such a lively and interesting discussion I have decided to make some alterations because apparently to not do so will continue to give some people an impression of me and my group that I do not wish to foster. For example I AM NOT a fraud as you insinuate. And much like Mr. Scott and others on this site, have spent 40 years of my life studying and training in these arts which have not only saved my life but have helped to keep me sane and level.

I try to meet every man on the level so that we can be honest with each other but I find it difficult to so in an internet chat room where comments lack the emotional and physical expression to be fully understood and lack the ability to look someone in the eye to properly evaluate and understand the meaning of what is being said.

So if you would like to ask me questions regarding history, custom, techs. etc I will be happy to respond but I will not respond to questions as to whys and wherefores-my father died a long time ago and I retired from my job so there's not too many people left to whom I owe that priviledge.[my mother is still alive so she counts].
Hopefully this will finally put an end to this issue and we can move on.
Miguel Ibarra

Thank you Mr. Ibarra for your reply. Sadly, this thread has treaded in a bit of crude humor which I felt wasn't appropriate for the theme of this thread, therefore, I am glad that didn't stop you from replying, nor taken away from the seriousness of my question. Also let me apologize if you thought or indicated you as a fraud. By no means do I think of you as a fraud, I was speaking to general terms of what is blatant in the Martial arts world. Those with no skill or ability, or experience etc.

I feel your professional career has provided you with a great amount of expertise. I am not concern with your past or previous tapes. I have seen your first Panther tapes (PT), but I have not seen your previous tapes. What you demonstrated in your PT you learn well from those who taught you, Perreria and Yonezawa. I base that on my knowledge and that of what I have seen and researched from these groups. The PTs are professionally done, and there is by far less quality jujutsu out there. I have no question of the style you initial co-founded with others who train with Perreria.

Because of your background with various Daito ryu groups and other combined arts it is odd to me that the symbol you use is so related to that of the Kodo-kai. This seems to be a reoccurring theme that you relay on through out the years. Therefore, I don't understand why you refrain from answering why you feel the Kodo-kai represents you and your background. As I understand it you have trained longer ( logged more hours) and achieved higher rank in other arts then the Kodo-kai?

According to those I have talked with, and what I seen in Yonezawa's group the focus is on applications of elementary bone-braking jujutsu. This is in contrast to that of others who learned Kodo-kai such as Okamoto Shoshi which focus on the more refined wazas of the Kodo-kai. The point being, I think, based on your PT, you lend yourself to more of a synthesis of what you learned from Yonezawa and Perreria with more stress and waza from Perreria. Also, Yonezawa prior to his death created a new system which contains similar waza from your tape.

Also you have studied under other Daito ryu instructors. I believe you also received further instruction from Yonezawa after he started his new system, independent of the Kodo-kai. You have in received high ranks in the above as well. Therefore, I am confused to why you would use Kodo-kai design in your symbol in stead of theirs?

I just don't understand why you would use something that doesn't seem to represent you or your background. I am confused why you wish not to answer that? Please feel assured am not attacking you, just what clarification.
-------------
Also I think Mr. Dostie words are worth repeating.


Sir:

Would you be so kind as to explain - and this is an honest question from someone who doesn't know, not a slam as I am afraid it could sound - is Yamabushi a seperate art, and then Daito Ryu Yamabushi a "blend" of those arts into a new system? That is what I am now gathering from your last comment.

Thanks
__________________
Joseph Dostie

[Samurai Jack]

Mr. Ibarra, I think a public forum is idea to discuss things; it gives you an opportunity to clarify issue to everyone leaving no speculation. To address your concerns about this forum as I said before, I believe Mr. Nathan Scott to be a fine Moderator. I am sure if insults start to fly he will put a stop to it. We can look at the respectability of the Aikijujutsu forum giving all credit to Mr. Scott's efforts.

The other thing is I don't see how my questions are personal, when I say how will using the characters of the Kodo-kai and your use of other parts of their symbol represent you and your background this is pertaining strictly to martial arts representation and background.

Please understand I am not asking about your private life. Let me put it in detail what I am looking for, you use or used in your symbol the name of Kodo-kai (in Japanese characters) which Kodo is the first name of Kodo Horikawa, and kai (loosely translated) meaning his school or style of Daito ryu. Here is the point of confusion, to me your use is some how saying your style of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Yamabushi Kai (under Yonezawa's instruction) is what Kodo Horikawa founded, or some thing like that. Honestly, I am not sure how it relates or what it is to means? In addition to the fact that Yonezawa started his own school and called it Daitoryu Bokuyokan which according to http://yonezawa-dojo.netfirms.com/v2/Aikihome/lineage.htm intiated in Japan as early as 1975. Clearly Yonezawa was planning for a future Daitoryu Bokuyokan USA way back in 1975. I would think to be true, based on his later actions apart from the Kodo-kai to establish Bokuyokan, and leaving the Kodo-kai. Wouldn't your symbol be of a better design to use Bokuyokan in it, instead of Kodo-kai? And according to other net sourses you really trained under Yonezawa from whom all your Daito ryu rank is awarded[head scratching]. That is unless you have Kodo-kai rank that is not from Yonezawa who really was working to develop and establish Daitoryu Bokuyokan since 1975.


Clarification from you would be the preferred and professional method rather then making up assumption, leaving it up to anyone's guess, etc. I don't see how Yamabushi (which I believe you are a co-founder) would use parts of Kodo-kai symbol to accurately reflect Yamabushi. A simple and clear example, is like Ford car company using Honda's symbol on it Ford vehicles? Oh boy... and if that did happened, think of the law suits that would back up the courts for years.... [chuckle] You see what I mean :)

Again Sir, I think you can agree that a response discussing this would be beneficial for all.

With respect and gratitude, Thank again.

[Samurai Jack]

[YONEZAWA, KATSUMI] established the Bokuyokan Dojo in Muroran, Hakkaido, Japan which was a Kodokai Shibu from Jun. 1975 until Aug. 1995. Later in Sept. 1995 the Bokuyokan Dojo became the headquarters for the Daitoryu Aikijujutsu Bokuyokan, with U.S. and Germany branches following in 1996.

http://yonezawa-dojo.netfirms.com/v2/Aikihome/lineage.htm

The Bokuyokan symbol is at http://yonezawa-dojo.netfirms.com/



Miguel Ibarra, Kaiden Shihan of the Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Yamabushi Kai, received his training under Prof. A. Pereira and Katsumi Yonezawa, Soshi Shihan of Daito Ryu Bokuyokan. He has furthered his studies of Daito Ryu by training under R. Okabayashi and T. Kawabe, both of whom hold the Kyoju Dairi in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. He has also studied Takeda Ryu under H. Nakamura 10th dan Takeda Ryu and R. Maroteaux 7th dan Takeda Ryu.

From http://members.aol.com/kaiden/indexb.htm

[Joel Buchheim]

Hi Mr. Ibarra,

I wish to thank you for your willingness to engage in discussion of the relevant issue in question with such equanimity and nondefensive posturing. It is my impression that several of the posts directed to you transcend expressions of differences of opinion or disagreements but convey an implicit indicting tone although accompanied by statements denying such underlying intent. Whenever I perceive anyone attempting to play "Grand Inquisitor/Interrogator" with another, particularly when the recipient of these questions is open and receptive, a red flag is raised as to the motivation of such tactics. This is especially relevant in a chatroom such as this whereby participation in such emotionally charged discussions is voluntary and therefore requires due respect on the part of all parties. The fact that you respond with frank openness and with respectful decorum should hopefully serve as an excellent role model for some posters to emulate.

Respectfully,

Joel Buchheim

[Nathan Scott]

One thing that seems to be getting glossed over - unless I've misinterpreted something - is that Mr. Ibarra has recently stated he intends to change his patch design in order to avoid further drama. If that is the case, then props to Mr. Ibarra.

Mr. Robison, though I appreciate your support, it is has become a bit much. People on this forum are human, so there has to be an allowance for human impulses. While I'd like to make this forum useful academically, I'd also like it to be readable. I've yet to make it all the way through the yellow pages from cover to cover!

Regards,

[Samurai Jack]

Nathan,

I do agree, and realize I got a bit too passionate, and passion owned also to man :) . But, the longer I went without a direct response to my question the more curious and inquisitive my momentum became. I guess, it is the human thing to be intrigued by a mystery, to ask why, to question and seek answers, and to understand. And there sits the truth, and thus the passion for it.

For those wondering if my passion was a masked persecution, I appologize for any misleading that occured. It was never my intent to attack Mr. Ibarra.

[miguel angel ib]

Mr. Jack with all due respect I think if I had more supporters like you I might find myself in a bit of trouble.LOL

As Mr. Scott has indicated I have no interest in continueing with the drama of what my patch does or does not represent. And as I stated earlier to avoid such drama, which I have not had since I began using this symbol well over a year ago, until now I have decided that my energies at this juncture of my life are better spent on trainimg and teaching rather than these mundane discussions over patches. So I have decided to alter the wording of the patch maybe even going back to my original patch-I'm not sure. But in any case I have asked my tech guy to make some alterations to avoid this confusion over the great Kodo Kai.

By the way I am not the co-founder of the Yamabushi Jujutsu/Aikijujutsu Ryu Inc. I am the founder. I set it up in December of 1982 on Westchester Square in the Bronx. In the late 80s I had a partner in a new endeavor which had a different name. We parted ways and I continued with my organization.It is the teaching of Miyama Ryu Jujutsu and Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu[jujutsu] 2 separate curricullums taught to the same students under one name. I've invented nothing. I merely teach what I was taught.

Yamabushi kai seeks to train individuals in practical self defense through training in traditional principles and katas[daito ryu]. Those principles being:
Kokyu, Kuzushi, Ma-ai,Metsuke and Zanshin.

I hope this answers some questions.
miguel ibarra

[Samurai Jack]

[QUOTE=miguel angel ib]As Mr. Scott has indicated I have no interest in continueing with the drama of what my patch does or does not represent. And as I stated earlier to avoid such drama, which I have not had since I began using this symbol well over a year ago, until now I have decided that my energies at this juncture of my life are better spent on trainimg and teaching rather than these mundane discussions over patches. So I have decided to alter the wording of the patch maybe even going back to my original patch-I'm not sure. But in any case I have asked my tech guy to make some alterations to avoid this confusion over the great Kodo Kai. [qoute]

Mr. Ibarra, this will be my last comment on the use of the Kodo-kai property as you wish not to discuss this "mundane" subject. I am being as open and generic in my words as I can with regard to your sensibility on this subject. With all due respect, your initial actions of using Kodo-kai property publicly has sparked controversy. Also people seeing the close relationship of the patches are going to ask questions, people like myself. Therefore, I don't understand why you (in other posts are very defensive) don't want to talk about it or answer questions on something you initiated. And then when people do talk about it, then the subject, as you state (at times very defensively), is a drama. A drama you want to avoid, a mundane subject as you put it, you have reservations talking about it. I am confused.

The other thing I would like to call your attention is that it seems, based on your recent post, and that of others, you seem to have an issue with the Kodo-kai, or for that matter generally main Daito ryu schools.

Let me direct your attention to things you have said that I have given me that indication.

The first is in post #25 of this thread "Oh, I forgot, I don't have to ask the Kodokai or anyone else what they think about anything I choose to do or don't do. That is the pleasure of being Independent. I especially don't have to ask any of the so called main line organizations from Japan. I use to do that when I was funneling my money to them for the "precious" knowledge that they are now putting on vidoes and dvds for a few bucks. Just like the rest of us."

Then there is this from the quote above,

"....this confusion over the great Kodo Kai."

Ouch! Sounds like to me a raw nerve, or something. Yet a raw nerve you have purposely exposed with your patch design, and use of Kodo-kai property again. Therefore, I don't think my questions can be dismissed as being attacks or insults. My questions are genuine, despite you refrain from directly answering those questions. I don't know why?

With all due respect, you created the patch and made it public, you knew the kind of attention it would get as it is use the Kodo-kai property. Clearly, you are not ignorant of that or of the Kodo-kai school. It seems, according to your posts, you don't like Daito ryu in general either. Hmmm..... with all due respect, if you don't want the drama then logically why would you create it...right? Hence, my confusion....


With my utmost respect,

[Joel Buchheim]

Mr. Samurai jack,

I hope that you are able to distinguish the difference between attempting to clarify an issue by making respectful inquiries and respecting another poster's boundaries versus badgering a poster by obsessively reiterating questions which I and a number of other posters believe has been adequately addressed by Mr. Ibarra in an open and satisfactory manner! In fact, this thread is not about Mr. Ibarra's personal feelings regarding another organization BUT specifically about his purported misuse of a patch which is an issue that I believed was resolved!

In fact, the issue here does not revolve around Mr. Ibarra's conduct, sentiments regarding other organizations or underlying motives BUT about your actual motive in pursuing an issue that has, according to the moderator, been adequately addressed! In fact, Mr. Ibarra is not on trial, is not being indicted and is here on his own volition. His presence in this forum contrasts with some other martial art practitioners who have refused to participate in this forum when confronted with questions by other posters regarding some aspect of their practice. The fact that Mr. Ibarra has been completely open and receptive to feedback says a great deal about this individual and I would suggest your respecting this fact and cease and desist from this spurious "investigatory" process that is going absolutely nowhere!

BTW, due to the lack of profile information listed under your name I would appreciate if you would provide some basic data as to the ryu you are affiliated with as well as your level of training.

Respectfully,

Joel Buchheim

[miguel angel ib]

I wish to thank everyone for the opportunity to have expressed myself on the issues presented and I agree that maybe people would like to discuss other aspects of the arts besides "me". For the record I am beginning to feel batterred by one individual and would hope that ceases for until now I have been trying to be a gentleman because I do not wish to be banned from this site but I do have limits. Obviously there is some obsessive behavior being exhibited here that I wish would be turned elsewhere.

If anyone else thinks that I am anti Daito Ryu or KodoKai, please forgive me. Just because, after all of these years, I have decided that I will not continue to believe in the much revered secrecy and total committment to one version over another or to the do as I say not as I do principle practiced by many of our revered martial arts masters, does not mean that i do not respect their abilities or their right to run their organizations as they see fit. I think the Daito Ryu world has enough strife within the Japanese boundaries without adding more from the west. I respect All of the Japanese Practitioners and Instructors of All of the different Daito Ryu organizations and much like in other organizations or brotherhoods I hold the KodoKai, as my Daito Ryu mother organization, in high esteem and consider them the forgers of my interest in Daito Ryu above all other organizations.

Food for Thought

" the essence of Daito Ryu is to keep alert until you have cut the enemy's throat. ....Practice is violent and a little different from other kinds of practices or from just practicing softly with aiki."

"Aiki applies to self defense when an opponent attacks first, and we use the term to refer to self defense for people in general. ...police do not use the word aiki. They use jujutsu. They fight with kiai, using a sen sen attack. Attacking is kiai. Aiki on the otherhand is go no sen..."
Miguel Ibarra

[Joel Buchheim]

I recieved an e-mail inquiring (and implying) that my "defense" of Mr. Ibarra was based on my being one of his students. For the record, I am not a student or an associate of Mr. Ibarra, have never met him and have not had any correspondence with him regarding the theme of the current thread. I am familiar with him through discussion with other martial arts practitioners as well as reading of his training with Roy Goldberg and reviewing his tapes.

In fact I am not defending Mr. Ibarra but the principles of fairness, integrity and ethicality. To me the true essence of our arts centers around how we live our lives, relate to others with respect, empathy and dignity and with the understanding that we should treat others in a manner that we would like to be treated. By relating to Mr. Ibarra in a contemptuous manner, either through provocative challenges that intimate that others will beat him up (this is not a joke but clear cut hostility expressed through sarcasm) or negating the level of his martial skills or by holding "court martial" proceedings, is totally unacceptable and grossly inappropriate. IMHO, if a poster has any opinions regarding their negative perception of another's martial skills (especially in light of the fact that this thread had absolutely nothing to do with anyone's competency as a martial artist), then it should be done so in a respectful manner through private e-mail messaging. By publicly articulating personal animus towards ANY poster is antithetical to resolving issues, such as the one in question and breeds bad will. Most significantly it reflects poorly on the individuals who exude such contempt with total disregard for the dignity and well being of a fellow poster. Just my opinion.

[Juan Perez]

I recieved an e-mail inquiring (and implying) that my "defense" of Mr. Ibarra was based on my being one of his students. For the record, I am not a student or an associate of Mr. Ibarra, have never met him and have not had any correspondence with him regarding the theme of the current thread. I am familiar with him through discussion with other martial arts practitioners as well as reading of his training with Roy Goldberg and reviewing his tapes.

In fact I am not defending Mr. Ibarra but the principles of fairness, integrity and ethicality. To me the true essence of our arts centers around how we live our lives, relate to others with respect, empathy and dignity and with the understanding that we should treat others in a manner that we would like to be treated. By relating to Mr. Ibarra in a contemptuous manner, either through provocative challenges that intimate that others will beat him up (this is not a joke but clear cut hostility expressed through sarcasm) or negating the level of his martial skills or by holding "court martial" proceedings, is totally unacceptable and grossly inappropriate. IMHO, if a poster has any opinions regarding their negative perception of another's martial skills (especially in light of the fact that this thread had absolutely nothing to do with anyone's competency as a martial artist), then it should be done so in a respectful manner through private e-mail messaging. By publicly articulating personal animus towards ANY poster is antithetical to resolving issues, such as the one in question and breeds bad will. Most significantly it reflects poorly on the individuals who exude such contempt with total disregard for the dignity and well being of a fellow poster. Just my opinion.

It has occured too often in this message board that when it is perceived that someone clamors for fair treatment of someone else, detractors automatically assume that there is a connection beyond the internet. Childish.

There are a lot of people in E-budo that bring great credit to the martial arts community. But, there are also many who antagonize and generally carry themselves out in a very poor manner in relation to others. There is no need to name whom. Those folks know exactly who they are. It is best to ignore them and rise above that.

By the way, is there a way to "ignore" posts from a particular poster so that one does not even see them when logged-in?

[Mark Raugas]

Okay, here is a simple question:

Why does Miguel not just advertise himself as nidan in Daito-ryu Kodokai Aikijujutsu (awarded by Mr. Yonezawa) and mokuroku in Miyama-ryu Jujutsu (awarded by Mr. Perreria)?

If his website was clear, and did not have tons of organizational ranks listed (versus his two technical rankings above), and did not use other organization's symbols / names / trademarks as part of his advertising, a lot of these discussions would be moot.

As I said above, I think the latter questions or issues detract from the message Ibarra is trying to teach (to simplify and paraphrase, a solid self-defense oriented application of Daito-ryu and Miyama-ryu). To his credit, his approach is much more up front than others referenced on these boards, but he could go much further towards general acceptance and acknowledgement with just a subtle change in the way he markets his dojo.

While trademark issues are for the organizations involved to resolve if they so desire (the point of my initial joke -- and it was just a joke, so get over it), and issues of skill are not relevant (also part of my initial message -- that my opinion or any one else's opinion of skill has nothing to do with issues in truth in advertising), a lot of this discussion can be avoided if Miguel would clarify and simplify the message he is trying to tell in his advertising.

Of course, that is up to him to do, if he so desires.

[Mark Raugas]

Juan Perez writes:


By the way, is there a way to "ignore" posts from a particular poster so that one does not even see them when logged-in?

Yes, there is: click on the user's profile, and menu will come up. Click on the link to view the person's profile and a page will come up with information about the person. There is a link to "add this user to your ignore list" on the top right of the screen. I'm not sure if that will block private messages only or will also stop you from seeing a specific user's posts.

[Nathan Scott]

Alright folks, that ought to just about do it. 10 pages of repeating the same things is plenty. I'm locking this thread. Please do not start a new thread to ask the same questions unless someone has something truly groundbreaking to add. Otherwise I will become upset.

Thanks to all for the participation on this subject, but it is very most definitely that time.

Sorry for the slow response,

[Nathan Scott]

Hi all,

Just an update to let you know that Mr. Ibarra has replaced the Kodokai patch on the intro page to his website with a picture of a dragon:

http://mysite.verizon.net/kaiden2/

So does this mean the Kodokai patch design is being dropped, or just that the image is being taken off the website? ;)

Regards,

[DDATFUS]

So does this mean the Kodokai patch design is being dropped, or just that the image is being taken off the website? ;)


I don't know, but I'm looking forward to five or six pages of contentious discussion as folks try to find out ;)

[Nathan Scott]

Me too.

You might notice, BTW, that this thread is now about 2 pages lighter. It all works out eventually. I'm afraid we lost a wee bit of good humor along the way, but I'm afraid it was the only way to edit out some important fodder.

Regards,

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Robison (Samurai Jack),

You've really worn out your welcome on this topic. Please give this thread a rest.

Thanks,

[Samurai Jack]

Sodes. I am humbly sorry for such an unwelcome instrusion regarding the violation by Mr. Ibarra. It is my spirit of shugyo, and perserverance that has to be excused. It is my hope that the truth that lies within all true warriors' heart will lighten the way. Thank Mr. Scott for casting light onto my failing, I hope you will have the same success with others.

With sincereity,

[Juan Perez]

Sodes. I am humbly sorry for such an unwelcome instrusion regarding the violation by Mr. Ibarra. It is my spirit of shugyo, and perserverance that has to be excused. It is my hope that the truth that lies within all true warriors' heart will lighten the way. Thank Mr. Scott for casting light onto my failing, I hope you will have the same success with others.

With sincereity,

:rolleyes:

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Juan,
You are far to kind.

MJ