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Richard Tolson
13th June 2005, 20:00
I was wondering how many martial artists here practice meditation exercises to enhance internal energy (ki/chi/prana, etc.)? This was something strongly emphasized in martial arts training thirty plus years ago. It seems to have been abandoned by most of the martial arts schools that I see today. So, I was wondering, how many people here still practice these various exercises? How many instructors here teach these techniques?
Thanks in advance!

Harry Cook
14th June 2005, 22:15
It wasn't really a part of the training in the north-east of England when I began training in the 1960s. In fact it was regarded as nonsense, and anyone who believed in that kind of thing was likely to be challenegd to prove it.
My attitude about ch'i, prana etc etc was established then and I haven't changed. If you use these terms to mean something like inner confidence, a positive attitude etc I have no problem. If you intend to mean something that operates like physical strength but effortlessly then I have no time for it. IT is silly. A simple tesyt would be for a master of internal power to duplicate some of the world weight lifting records, say the bench pres or dead lift. Not much technique involved so it would be a fair test of this 'power'.
I'll bet no one even trys.
Harry Cook

Rogier
16th June 2005, 07:27
if you do a search in the forum based on those three words you'll get more than enough examples of the general opinion on this subject

Richard Tolson
17th June 2005, 00:50
Sad! :(
So, why keep "traditional" katas like sanshin of Karate and tid sin kuen (iron wire) of Hung Gar Kung Fu around?
Is ki/chi/prana only useful if you can do circus feats with it (lifting weights, etc.)?

Trevor Johnson
17th June 2005, 00:52
Sad! :(
So, why keep "traditional" katas like sanshin of Karate and tid sien (iron wire) of Hung Gar Kung Fu around?
Is ki/chi/prana only useful if you can do circus feats with it (lifting weights, etc.)?

Sanchin is a wonderful kata used to condition the body for impact, so that you're not knocked about as easily by any bloke who punches you. It's also great for strength training. Chi has nothing to do with it. What else do you need?

Rogier
17th June 2005, 07:43
The whole problem, if you'd actually read through a few of the threads on the forum, is that a large group of people here do not believe in the ki concept.


Sad! :(
So, why keep "traditional" katas like sanshin of Karate and tid sin kuen (iron wire) of Hung Gar Kung Fu around?

wth does sanchin have to do with ki?



Is ki/chi/prana only useful if you can do circus feats with it (lifting weights, etc.)?

whoohooo, you hit the nail right on the head. All the ki/chi/prana stuff are actually as you describe it: circus feats. Ki is usually used as a mysterious explanation for simple body mechanics, cheap parlour tricks etc. etc.

I'll try and keep an open mind and would like to ask you what your definition / understanding of ki/chi/prana is?

Richard Tolson
18th June 2005, 00:29
Mr. Johnson,
That may be how Sanshin is taught today, but I remember a time when ki was emphasized as a part of the kata training. Granted, this was back in the late sixties and early seventies, but it was emphasized. Since your profile states that you were born in the late 1970's I would understand you not remembering this (a tongue in cheek attempt at humor, BTW).

Rogier,
I did read a couple of threads. The first that I read was consisted of about 75% flaming posts of a couple of individuals with which the majority of posters disagreed.
It is true that many individuals have demonstrated circus type feats as "proof" that internal energy is real. I think that is unfortunate and I can certainly understand how these stunts have turned some modern martial artists sour on the subject.
However, my initial post was not meant to open a debate on the definition or reality on ki/chi/prana. I simply wondered how many martial artists still practiced and/or taught these types of exercises. And I am still wondering. Perhaps others are afraid to be flamed for expressing their beliefs.
Yet, I do think that this is a valid topic of discussion. Especially on a Meditation forum.

Trevor Johnson
18th June 2005, 04:39
Mr. Johnson,
That may be how Sanshin is taught today, but I remember a time when ki was emphasized as a part of the kata training. Granted, this was back in the late sixties and early seventies, but it was emphasized. Since your profile states that you were born in the late 1970's I would understand you not remembering this (a tongue in cheek attempt at humor, BTW).

I'm going to have to punt to Harry for history, then, if he's reading this. I do, however, want to point out that how it was practiced in the 60s and early 70s may have been influenced by the general ummm "hippie and eastern" vibe, for lack of a better term. I do know that sanchin has long been used for body conditioning and training, breathing, etc, and that chi was originally really more about breath than mystical forces, if I'm remembering Harry's comment right. I may be a spring chicken :D :laugh:, but I'm more interested in how it was practiced, say, before Funakoshi ever went to Japan. And even YOU're a spring chicken compared to that!

Rogier
18th June 2005, 10:27
I simply wondered how many martial artists still practiced and/or taught these types of exercises. And I am still wondering.

True, my apologies.

As you understand I don't practice this and haven't been taught. I do know some people who also practice Tai Chi, quite obvious that they do practice it.

Harry Cook
19th June 2005, 01:37
I learned Goju Ryu Sanchin in Japan in 1977 and ki was never mentioned. I previously learned Uechi Ryu Sanchin from Dr. Dave Scott when he returned from Okinawa, and he never mentioned ki.
You say weight lifting is a 'circus feat'. No it isn't. Weight lifting is a well regulated sport and means of building muscular strength. Detailed records have been kept for a long time. So when someone says they are 'strong' there is an objective scale to measure their strength against.
Now ki/ch'i/prana is often held up as a force generally considered superior to physical strength, so it should be easy for a master of this kind of power/force/energy to duplicate some of the more impressive lifts performed by weight lifters in competition - the internall energy stories are full of people who could weildf heavy weapons effortlessly, smash huge stones, or move massive boulders, as well as make weapons shatter on their invulnerable bodies.
If it can be done let's see it, or better yet enter something like the MMA events and throw the big weight trained fighters around.
I believe that a good test of something like ch'i would be to enter the All -Japan Judo champs and simply prevent any throws from taking place by 'rooting' yourself to the ground. Arm locks etc could be neutralised by sending ki down your arms and displaying the unbendable arm etc etc.
I also know it won't happen.
Harry Cook

Richard Tolson
19th June 2005, 02:07
I'm going to have to punt to Harry for history, then, if he's reading this. I do, however, want to point out that how it was practiced in the 60s and early 70s may have been influenced by the general ummm "hippie and eastern" vibe, for lack of a better term. I do know that sanchin has long been used for body conditioning and training, breathing, etc, and that chi was originally really more about breath than mystical forces, if I'm remembering Harry's comment right. I may be a spring chicken, but I'm more interested in how it was practiced, say, before Funakoshi ever went to Japan. And even YOU're a spring chicken compared to that!

Trevor,
Your theory on "hippie and eastern vibe" may be correct. I did not train in Sanshin as a part of any of my training. My thoughts only came from opinions that I heard from practitioners who trained in this kata.

True, my apologies.

Rogier,
No apology necessary. :)

I learned Goju Ryu Sanchin in Japan in 1977 and ki was never mentioned. I previously learned Uechi Ryu Sanchin from Dr. Dave Scott when he returned from Okinawa, and he never mentioned ki.
You say weight lifting is a 'circus feat'. No it isn't. Weight lifting is a well regulated sport and means of building muscular strength. Detailed records have been kept for a long time. So when someone says they are 'strong' there is an objective scale to measure their strength against.
Now ki/ch'i/prana is often held up as a force generally considered superior to physical strength, so it should be easy for a master of this kind of power/force/energy to duplicate some of the more impressive lifts performed by weight lifters in competition - the internall energy stories are full of people who could weildf heavy weapons effortlessly, smash huge stones, or move massive boulders, as well as make weapons shatter on their invulnerable bodies.
If it can be done let's see it, or better yet enter something like the MMA events and throw the big weight trained fighters around.
I believe that a good test of something like ch'i would be to enter the All -Japan Judo champs and simply prevent any throws from taking place by 'rooting' yourself to the ground. Arm locks etc could be neutralised by sending ki down your arms and displaying the unbendable arm etc etc.
I also know it won't happen.

Harry,
First, you sound like your training gives you the authority to comment on the Sanshin kata. So, here is me tapping the mat to your experience. Apparently, I was wrong on the role of ki in Sanshin.
Second, I did not say that weight lifting is a circus feat. I practiced bodybuilding for years. What I said was that the use of internal energy was not intended for circus stunts, which trying to lift heavy objects with internal energy would be. That is only the role of ki/chi/prana in chop sokey movies and comic books.
Third, I certainly do not claim to be a "master" of internal energy. My twenty plus years of training in these exercises would only classify me as a novice at best.
Fourth, you mention rooting and unbendable arm. I have demonstrated these skills for years against other black belts in and out of a competition setting. However, I believe these work primarly on body mechanics and weight distribution. Something most people, with or without martial arts training, can be taught to do in a few minutes.

Friends,
It seems the problem revolves around a misunderstanding of what is typically marketed as ki/chi/prana and my personal definition/useage.
Thank you for your comments nontheless.

Harry Cook
19th June 2005, 10:35
If these stories were just comic book nonsense then no one would be bothered, but these tales are part and parcel of otherwise serious studies of the martial arts.
In Gateway to the Miraculous [1994] Gene Lowenthal reports a conversation he had with his teacher Cheng Man Ch’ing about the Boxers who rose in an anti-Western and anti-Manchu rebellion at the beginning of the twentieth century. According to Cheng Man Ch’ing the Boxers ‘had the faith of the people they led...because they had demonstrated their ability to withstand bullets. They would let a rifle be shot at them, and the bullets would bounce off.’
‘The trouble was’, Professor went on to say ‘that these Boxers could only do it they were focusing their attention right at the gun. When the battle began, it was all the rifles shooting at them from various angles that nullified their power and killed them.’
Alexandra David-Neel relates an incident when her servant Dawasandup tried to offer some money to a Tibetan mystic. For some reason the holy man felt insulted and ‘Dawasandup thought it right to insist. He took a few steps forward, intending to place the money on a table near the lama. Then I saw him stagger, fall backward and strike his back against the wall as if he had been violently pushed. He uttered a cry and clutched at his stomach. The naljorpa got up and, sneering, left the room. ‘I feel as if I had received a terrible blow’, said Dawasandup. ‘The lama is irritated. How shall we appease him?’
Belief in ki sometimes leads to some tragic results. Masahiro Oki, a Japanese teacher of yoga and related arts, believed and taught that ‘Yoga begins and ends in breath and both Yoga and Taoism regard ki, or prana, as life itself.’
In 1988 at the age of sixty-four he put his beliefs to the test. He became convinced that he had achieved some kind of cosmic unity and so decided to practise yoga under water wearing a jacket loaded with lead. He went to the Adriatic with a number of his students to demonstrate his ability to breathe under water. While seated in the lotus posture he drowned. Obviously he became so convinced by his own stories of superhuman powers that his common sense deserted him and he paid the ultimate price. It is possible that Masahiro Oki was inspired to try his feat by the story told by Ko Hung of his uncle Ko Hsuan who ‘whenever he was overcome by wine in the heat of the summer would incontinently retire to the bottom of a deep pool and stay there till the evening - this was because he could retain his breath and respire like a foetus in the womb.’
Water seems to hold some special interest for the practitioners of the internal. The stage magician Milbourne Christopher recounts one of his experiences. ‘I was in India in 1966 when the newspapers announced that Lakshamanasandra Srikanta Rao, a hatha yogi who in the past had eaten nails, needles, razor blades, and glass, and who had walked on fire, would walk on water in Bombay. Some of the five thousand spectators paid as much as $70 for the choicest seats. An oblong concrete tank, twenty feet long and six feet wide, had been built for the occasion and filled with water. The white-bearded mystic ascended the steps to the edge of the basin. There he paused and prayed. With complete confidence he stepped on the surface of the water. As the huge audience gasped, Rao sank immediately to the bottom.’
Yoy might be interested in an article I have done for Classical Fighting Arts on this topic. It should start in the next issue (no. 7).
Harry Cook

Richard Tolson
19th June 2005, 21:59
Harry,
I do not deny that some people have these sort of beliefs about internal energy. But your examples point to my premise that these ideas should be left to chop sokey movies and comic books.
I believe in internal energy. I have had it used against me and felt the effects in my Chinese martial arts and Yoga meditation training.
I have also heard MANY BS stories by various martial artists about the "powers" of internal energy and its application.
During my 37 years of martial arts training I have come to the conclusion that there is nothing "mystical" about internal energy. I believe everyone has it and anyone can be taught to use it. Some more than others. I also believe that it has a biological rather than a spiritual basis. Though ancient spiritual rituals led to its discovery and were the first means of developing the ability to use internal energy.
I had the priviledge of studying Iron Palm and Iron Shirt techniques in my Chinese martial arts training. However, as a pistol and rifle instructor for an emergency response team, I am quite certain bullets would not bounce off my chest. :)
Many crazy ideas have been promulgated in the name of ki/chi/prana. However, that should not sully the true benefits of this type of training.

Harry Cook
20th June 2005, 02:17
OK so once you have removed all the silly stories about internal energy what is left?
It doesn't act as a form of superhuman strength; it doesn't act as a form of body armour; it cannot make you fly, smash huge stones, etc etc. What does it do? What is the point of it?
If it simply makes you feel good then it may simply be a subjective state, similar to a couple of beers, wacky baccy etc etc.
This is always the problem with this kind of thing, pinning it down. Many years ago, when I was a university student, I regularly meditated under the guidance of a highly ranked Thai Buddhist monk. He told me that it was quite common in meditation to imagine all kinds of things. These should be ignored, he said, until they evaporated away. That is what I think ch'i is - a feeling which should be ignored, as in the long run there is nothing productive there. It is a distraction from the main thing.
Harry Cook

Cufaol
20th June 2005, 17:09
I was wondering...why oh why do you think that various Masters (real ones, not those bad budo guys) still practice ch'i training? Would they do it if it would distract them from the real deal???
I'd send our soke a mail and ask him how he feels about it if only I wouldn't be marked as an uncivilized person for trying to contact him. (Or that's what happened last time I tried to.)

regards, C.

Harry Cook
20th June 2005, 17:33
Not every 'master' does indulge in ch'i training. Also remember that some people will hang on to outdated ideas despite all evidence to the contrary because the old idea serves some emotional need.
You find the same thing in the study of history. The old story of Bodhidharma teaching the Shaolin monks, the Muscle Change Classic, 18 Lohan Hands etc etc has been shown a number of times to have no historical validity, but it is such a good story that people would rather believe the myth than seek out the truth.
Harry Cook

Cufaol
20th June 2005, 20:41
so all masters who still practice these ideas are misguided? I have a hard time believing this.

c.

Trevor Johnson
20th June 2005, 20:54
so all masters who still practice these ideas are misguided? I have a hard time believing this.

c.

Umm, yes, people will believe anything for a while, and some forever. The recent elections in the states should tell you much...

Cufaol
20th June 2005, 21:08
Granted.
hey if you think that these people are wrong, no prob. I never said that a healthy sense of criticism wasn't necessary. it's just really strange that after all these years, despite of sciences' discoveries, many people still think that these ancient theories hold some thruth. The only thing I can say out of my own experience, is that meditation helps me focus, keeps my level of concentration/ alertness high when needed. (e.g. before an important examination/or a duel)

c.

Trevor Johnson
20th June 2005, 21:12
Granted.
hey if you think that these people are wrong, no prob. I never said that a healthy sense of criticism wasn't necessary. it's just really strange that after all these years, despite of sciences' discoveries, many people still think that these ancient theories hold some thruth. The only thing I can say out of my own experience, is that meditation helps me focus, keeps my level of concentration/ alertness high when needed. (e.g. before an important examination/or a duel)

c.

Right, and that's, imho, perfectly acceptable. Works for me too, same way.

Reminds me of the scientist who was presenting basic astronomy before a large group of senior citizens, 'round the turn of the century. One of them stood up and loudly exclaimed, "Young man, I don't know why you're showing us this foolishness! Everyone knows that the world is flat, and rests on the back of a giant turtle!" The scientist, rather surprised, attempted to respond with sweet reason. "Ma'am, if that's true, then what is the turtle standing on?"

"You can't fool me, young man," cried the old woman, "It's turtles all the way down!"


All of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time. And some just need to believe.

Cufaol
20th June 2005, 21:18
I believe Marx put it somewhat like this:"Religion is the opium of the people."


To be honnest, in the end I don't care whether it is the power of the mind, the power of 'God', ch'i, or my granny's spirit running through my veines :p . As long as it works for me, it's all just fine.

PS: I heard the 'turtle' story before, it's really a good exemple of the weakness of our species.

c.

Trevor Johnson
20th June 2005, 21:26
The thing I very much like about your statements is the fact that you quote from your own direct experience. Hearsay is like a telephone game. You get in a really good punch on a mugger, he goes down and out like a light. By the time the story's done making the rounds, it's 30 muggers and a dog, and some of them died without a mark on them, some were found in pieces up trees, and someone's seen their ghosts haunting the site where the fight took place, wailing in horror at what you did. You bad-a$$, you.

Cufaol
20th June 2005, 21:37
You forgot about the guy's head they found 200 miles ahead, a mawashi geri can be really devastating you know.
No really, about my experience: all the given exemples happened on the tatami. I've never gotten into a real 'streetfight'. I think that this proves my training pays off...

About meditation: I've seen/tested many forms/'styles', but it always comes down to the same thing. helping yourself being a better person.

regards, c.

Katsujinken
20th June 2005, 22:53
Though I would tend to agree that much of the so called Ki business in martial arts is hype and has probably been added to by the so called 'New age Phenomena'.

So what do we do about Ai Ki Do?
Most Aikido Sensei these days do not use the term Ki these days and prefer Kokyu. As for Pranayama this simply means breath in Yoga, just as Kokyu also means breath.

How about Tai Chi Chaun and Chi Kung?

Anyway the term Ki or Chi is misunderstood in the martial arts in my opinion, it is a term that defies a direct translation, the nearest is something like the force responsible for the change of all things. It most certainly is NOT energy as understood in the west and which people seem to keep claiming.

Ki or Chi the Kanji represents vapour rising, historically it described things like
A move from Yin (dark side of a hill) to Yang (Sunny Side of a hill) that is the change from Night to day and back again. It also was part of the movement of seasons and their phases is an example of the manifestation of Ki or Chi from spring (wood) to summer (fire).

As for Scientific proof about Ki we could consider Namakoshi's Shiatsu with its Nerve reflex points or Chinese Acupuncture, but these can often be described in Western terms using other names from science.

Nevertheless there is an ethnophysiology which involves Chi circulation in Chinese Medicine. I.e. Air into lungs gathering Ki (respiration), combines with Ki from food (digestion) to create True Ki (life) which supplements Jing (Kidneys) which is the life force inherited from the parents (Genetics).

However if you look at the Ethnophysiology involved in Yoga Pranayama has diffeent connotations and represents breath in slightly different manifestations but then your into the Psychology of Perception.

In short Chi, Ki and Pranayama are parts of world views of the cultures where these terms originate, they seem mysterious and esoteric and soon everybody lays claim to some mystic Ki aspect i.e. Reiki.

Regards

Harry Cook
20th June 2005, 23:52
What has ch'i got to do with meditiation? I sat in meditation with a senior Thai monk for a couple of years. He spoke about regulating or observing the breath, the states of mind etc in meditation, concentration etc etc, but he never mentioned internal energy.
As for Aikido, according to Gozo Shioda ki is simply a term used to describe the integration of a number of skills developed through hard training. He explains ‘In aikido we often use the word ‘ki,’ or energy, but this word covers a variety of meanings. ‘Ki’ as it is manifested in the performance of techniques is what we have when the components of correct posture, centre line, breathing, the explosive power of focused energy, timing, etc., come together so that we reach the highest state of perfect balance. It might be said that ‘ki’ is ‘the mastery of balance.’
The meaning of ‘ki’ in the phrase ‘harmonize your ki,’ refers to sensitivity to your partner, and covers all of the elements that come out of your partner’s state of being, so that power, speed, timing, and rhythm are all part of the meaning of ki in this instance.
As you continue your training, you will become more sensitive to how your opponent is going to attack you, which direction he is going to move in, and where he will focus his power. It is possible to say that this ability to ‘see/feel energy’ is one of the major purposes of training.
Delving deeper we see that ‘ki’ is both the matter of the universe, and what controls it. To harmonize with the universe means to be in balance. ‘Aiki,’ i.e., ‘harmonizing of energy,’ means to lose your own ego; it is the technique of submitting to the natural flow of the universe. By doing that you can effortlessly realize your own natural self depending on the situation that is in front of you, and it is by developing this harmony that we find the realization of aikido.’
Shioda was asked about ki in Black Belt magazine April 1976. His response ‘Ki, ki, ki...people who talk like that sound like lunatics...Osensei said that sometimes, when you’re practising and everything...fits together just right, you’ve experienced ki...My interpretation of ki is, if practice goes smoothly, if it feels good, if that good feeling extends into your daily life and helps in your business activities, then that’s ki.’
Harry Cook

Richard Tolson
21st June 2005, 05:31
My has this thread gotten off track since I left it yesterday! :)

Harry,
You ask, "What does meditation have to do with chi?". Everything!
Through meditation some have learned to control and alter normal body functions (breathing, blood pressure, pain management, focus, the electrical conductance of the skin, etc.) This involves taking control of areas the brain naturally controls without conscience effort.
How is this applied as "chi" in Chinese martial arts? Let me provide some examples.

Example One
Earlier I talked about Iron Shirt training, the ability to take a lot of physical abuse to the body. This is accomplished by two methods; physical training and mental training. Special physical exercises are practiced to make the muscles and bones very hard. Mental exercises are practiced to turn off the feeling of pain. Practitioners are told to "direct their chi" to the area that will be absorbing the injury. This has a placebo effect that can cancel the feeling of pain. While actual injury may take place, the practitioner has turned off his ability to feel pain and is able to continue defending himself in a life or death situation.

Example Two
When threatened certain biological responses happen to the body. The pulse quickens, respiration becomes more shallow, and the muscles tighten. At the same time certain things begin to happen on a psychological level. The mind becomes focused to a level of tunnel vision, one's sense of hearing is dulled and perception of time is skewed.
Mental exercises are used to teach law enforcement officers, soldiers and some martial artists how to break through these natural biological and psychological barriers one encounters when faced with a life-threatening situation. The pulse can be slowed, the blood pressure lessened and the focus widened through proper mental training.

Earlier in one of my posts I stated that I believed internal energy was biologically rather than mystically-based. I believe that "chi" is the ability to control some of the natural biological and neurological body processes that are usually out of our control. This control is learned through meditation. It can be studied, tested and measured through the use of modern medical tools (electroencephalographs, functional magnetic resonance imaging, positron emission tomography and single photon emission computed tomography).
So I see "chi" not as a power or force, but as a mental discipline that can be cultivated. Though admittedly, this is not how it is usually explained or defined.

So should internal training/chi traing be ignored? IMO, only if you want to rob yourself of valuable tools for combat and personal mental development.

Now taking this thread back to its original purpose...

So, I was wondering, how many people here still practice these various exercises? How many instructors here teach these techniques?

Harry Cook
21st June 2005, 12:08
Yes Richard, but then your definition of ch'i has little to do with the traditional notions found in Chinese and other sources which are clearly descriptions of methods of generating something like physical strength, but instead of using muscular contractions confused tales of ch'ing, shen, and ch'i ae told, tied in to a physiology which has no basis in reality.
If you see ch'i as "a mental discipline that can be cultivated" then why not call it 'mental discipline' which would prevent a vast amount of confusion.
The question you possibly should have asked would then be something like "How many instructors teach exercises designed to discipline the mind and emotions?"
The answer would be - quite a few - learning to keep going under pressure is one approach; contact sparring where the barriers of pain, tiredness and fear have to be overcome is a related approach and is quite common in both traditional and modern methods of training. This is very much a part of MMA training, Muay Thai, Kyokushinkai knockdown, Okinawan Goju Ryu (sanchin testing) etc etc.
Harry Cook

Cufaol
21st June 2005, 13:10
Ch'i is indeed somthing totally different from what we know as energy (cf. greek: energeia--> +-'to move'). It can be best translated as 'becoming'. The universe is becoming all the time, not by moving, but by being what it is. An eternal processing of information.
As far as training is concerned, I do try to train both body and mind.
It would indeed be a loss if meditation wuold be cancelled from training.

c.

Exorcist_Fist
21st June 2005, 15:56
At the risk of sounding insane...

Oh forget it. I practice taiji intensively, and have for about 8 years. Intensively means a minimum of an hour a day, and targetting 3-4 hours a day. If you don't put in the time, you will never understand what qi is. It's not exactly something that's simple to spell out. But!

1. It has nothing to do with lifting weights.

2. Intensive and incorrect practice of meditation/qi gong/taiji can lead to delusional states. (See I can walk on water. I can breath water)

Cufaol
21st June 2005, 16:15
Silent Dan, what are the benefits you experience from your taiji training?

regards, c.

Exorcist_Fist
21st June 2005, 16:35
Benefits... hmm. Nothing comes to mind.

The fact of the matter is, until you truly experience it, it's difficult to understand what it is. It's like trying to tell a person who lives in a desert what it is like to swim.

That being said, again the equating of qi with physical strength is way off. As with the above example, once you begin to explain it people will simply wander off down their own belief systems. The point behind the old woman and the turtles is not simply that people will believe anything, the point is that people will cling to those beliefs without a rational reason to do so.

I began training in taiji by accident. I had a fundementally incorrect idea of what ki was from having done other forms of MA, and having been involved with a Zen group doing meditation for about 3 years. I was fortunate in that my teacher never initially discussed Qi with me. When I had certain experiences, I asked her about it. Many people can practice for years and never get it. Why? Because a) If they are looking for ki, they generally have no idea of what they are looking for, b) It's hard to experience something you don't want to believe in (Turtles), c) the practice required to correctly develop even the rudiments of 'qi' are brutally exacting, and most so called taiji people can't handle it. Every posture, breath, and move must be performed 100% correctly, or you are just wasting your time.

Exorcist_Fist
21st June 2005, 17:05
Actually, let me post a bit more.

First

The term qi/ki has many meanings. There is yang ki, yin ki, anger ki, food ki, air ki, sun ki, etc. People tend to somehow get the impression these are all parts of a greater whole. They are not. For the purpose of this discussion we will limit ourselves to the ki cultivated through correct and diligent practices, such as meditation or taiji or qi gong.

Second

Ki is not a state of mind. At least not as discussed above. Ki is a physically experiencable thing. This may be sensed in the form of heat, like a mist rising from your skin. It may be sensed flowing through your body. It can be directed through correct practice. Now, this does NOT mean it is some kind of metaphysical crap. I don't know what causes these sensations. In part taiji and other forms of qi gong, and even correctly practiced meditation, strenghtens your fascial system and has some effect on your blood flow. Thus, ki may be entirely physical in nature. I don't know, and I don't care. Ki is also perceptible to other people outside of just the practitioner. I tend to give off very large amounts of heat without a significant change in my core body temperature. I do not know why.

Third

For whatever reason, some people simply never develop any ability to sense ki, even if practicing correctly. Maybe they just suck, maybe they are not very sensitive in general. I have no idea.

Trevor Johnson
21st June 2005, 17:42
Ki is not a state of mind. At least not as discussed above. Ki is a physically experiencable thing. This may be sensed in the form of heat, like a mist rising from your skin. It may be sensed flowing through your body. It can be directed through correct practice. Now, this does NOT mean it is some kind of metaphysical crap. I don't know what causes these sensations. In part taiji and other forms of qi gong, and even correctly practiced meditation, strenghtens your fascial system and has some effect on your blood flow. Thus, ki may be entirely physical in nature. I don't know, and I don't care. Ki is also perceptible to other people outside of just the practitioner. I tend to give off very large amounts of heat without a significant change in my core body temperature. I do not know why.

Third

For whatever reason, some people simply never develop any ability to sense ki, even if practicing correctly. Maybe they just suck, maybe they are not very sensitive in general. I have no idea.

For your second point, I believe that I can do that as well, without "proper" practice. I've done it. It's basic biofeedback. Same with the bloodflow. I believe that I mentioned this a page back or so.

It's possible that those who don't sense chi, to address your third point, aren't paying attention to extraneous sensations. These are side effects of meditation, not its end. Those who can tell what they're sensing and know that it's not a mystical side-effect, but a physiological side-effect, probably don't "feel" it the same way.

Richard Tolson
21st June 2005, 18:48
Harry,
I asked the question exactly as I did because I wanted to hear from others who espoused the traditional views on chi. I was taught as they were taught. I simply changed some of my views. That doesn't mean that I do not value the beliefs and input of others.

Daniel,
You are correct that meditation can induce hallucinations and delusions in certain situations. After all, those who meditate may be stimulating various brain centers, the effect of which may be unknown to them. Some of these centers can cause visual, auditory and other sensory hallucinations. Sometimes our perceptions of "reality" can really be stretched during meditation.
Also, you said that you were not sure what causes the physical manifestations of "chi" that you described. It is the stimulation of certain areas of the brain through meditation. These effects have been tested and proven by medical science
BTW, one of the best books that I have seen on the neurological effects of meditation is Why God Won't Go Away by Andrew Newberg, M.D. and Eugene D'Aquili, M.D., PhD.. Both men are medical doctors who have specialized in neurology. I would highly recommend this book to all who are interested in meditation and hypnosis.

Cufaol
21st June 2005, 19:48
About the 'stretching of reality': I guess none of you guys is going to believe this but hey, I'll just give it a shot.

When Dreaming, or when I'm meditating, I regulary have this scenes played in my mind. Well, let's just call it dreams. So far, no prob. However, these dreams, tend to become real. And not as in; I say a giant pink bunny walking across my town. But more like when I'm having a conversation, I sometimes remember this dream, and know exactly what will happen and what is going to be said for the next few seconds/minutes.
The strange thing is that I know someone else who has this same thing.

I know it's maybe a bit of topic, but I just wanted to tell you guys.
(btw, now would be a good time for puns I gather...)

regards,c

Harry Cook
21st June 2005, 22:21
It has been said here that the cultivation of ch’i has nothing to do with strength. This claim simply ignores the huge number of references to developing power through ch’i found in Chinese sources.
According to the Wei Sheng I Chin Ching (1875) for example the training will develop ‘divine strength’ in ‘the inside of the bones’, and ‘the fingers will be able to go through a bullock’s abdomen and the palm on edge will be able to decapitate a bullock’s head.'
According to Yang Jwing-Ming it was the cultivation of ch’i that allowed Shaolin monks ‘to withstand strong blows, edged weapons, and even cavity press’ (ie attacks to the vital points). Chi Kung 1985 p104
Lu Kuan Yu in his Secrets of Chinese Meditation (1969) tells the story of Chan Master Hsu Yun who lifted a huge boulder to regain authority over a group of disobedient porters. According to Lu Kuan Yu ‘there was nothing miraculous in this for Hsu Yun merely used the power of prana in his hands to displace the boulder.’ page 211
These are just a few examples. Even a cursory study of the literature will show that one of the aspects of ch’i is that it is supposed to function as a superior kind of strength, not dependant on muscular contraction but on breath, intention, etc etc, and of course this aspect could be easily tested, as I suggested before
Harry Cook

Exorcist_Fist
21st June 2005, 22:49
Harry

Biofeedback

[quote]It's possible that those who don't sense chi, to address your third point, aren't paying attention to extraneous sensations. These are side effects of meditation, not its end. Those who can tell what they're sensing and know that it's not a mystical side-effect, but a physiological side-effect, probably don't "feel" it the same way.[quote]

I agree. Who's to say that chi and bio feedback aren't the same thing? Is it so upsetting that it's not the mystical thing that many people believe it is? That being said, I took part in biofeedback experiments during my junior high biology class. The physical sensations are significantly different. Certainly though, there is no reason to believe that the sensations are not simply the product of a specific form of exercise, coupled with standard biofeedback. After all, I get warm after running too.

Strength

The literature you sight may perhaps be incorrect, or mistranslations or exaggerations. If you read stories about Chen Fa Ke-- one of the great modern lights of taiji--there are several stories of him practicing the form a hundred times a day. Since his form of taiji takes about 20 min to complete a single form... The fact is that this is a mistranslation. In chinese the term 100 is frequently used to mean "many", just as if I were to say "I punched a heavy bag a million times today". Another famous story tells of CFK killing a monstrous dog that had terrorized a neighborhood with a single kick. An eyewitness later stated that the dog was actually roughly the size of a medium breed terrier.

In short, don't believe the hype. I can quote greek mythology and ask why people can't fly on wings made of beeswax and feathers anymore. Essentially you are doing the same by quoting exaggerated chinese myths.

Here's another story for you.

A Xing Yi master was demonstrating swordplay for the provincial governor and his wife. His technique was quite famous, so the two viewers were hoping for quite a show. At the end of part of the demonstration, two men rush forward and threw a bucket of water on the XY master.

Dripping wet, the XY guy asked what the hell was going on. The wife of the governor said, "You must not be very good. I heard a true swordmaster should be able to block all the drops of water, and remain dry."

The XY master shook his head and said, "Madam, you read too many fairy tales."

Regarding the neurological studies of meditation, I have read the book you mentioned. Not being a neurologist I personally cannot comment on its validity.

And one more time...

It's turtles all the way down young man.

Harry Cook
21st June 2005, 23:08
The transalations may be wrong, but I have a degree in Chinese and I have looked at some of the original texts, and it is clear to me that the tales told of the chi masters are accurate enough.
The fact is that all the stuff about ch'i is subjective. If ch'i exercises could produce superior physical manifestations then the Chinese olympic athletes would be using them. They don't.
Harry Cook

UshiDeshi
21st June 2005, 23:44
Richard,

In my humble opinion Engery Cultivation & Meditation are two of the most important parts of Martial Arts. I study Kosho Shorei Ryu, which consists of 8 arts, the 1st is Energy Cultivation and the 7th is Meditation. The best Self Defense starts with YOU!! We study Neigong and Chigong as well as follow Andrew Cohens teachings of Impersonal enlightenment and meditation. Engergy Cultivation and Taichi allows you to become more sensitive with feeling the engergies that flow through you and the individual you are trying to help or defend your self against.
If you really look into the old Traditional Japanese and Chinese arts, they all included meditation. A Samurai had to train his mind to be calm in the midst of battle.

P.S. By "old" I mean over 500 years old.

Exorcist_Fist
22nd June 2005, 00:05
it is clear to me that the tales told of the chi masters are accurate enough.

Let me get this straight. You think they are accurate, but you think that they are indicative of a physical impossibility. In what way are they accurate then?

Turtles all the way down!

Richard Tolson
22nd June 2005, 01:27
Richard,

We study Neigong and Chigong as well as follow Andrew Cohens teachings of Impersonal enlightenment and meditation. Engergy Cultivation and Taichi allows you to become more sensitive with feeling the engergies that flow through you and the individual you are trying to help or defend your self against.

Peter,
Glad to hear from another practitioner of these ideas. I am unfamiliar with the teachings of Andrew Cohen. Can you elaborate on his ideas?
I do agree that not all aspects of chi training can be boiled down to neurology. However, I can't even begin to explain or substantiate some of the things I have experienced, so I don't even try.

Trevor Johnson
22nd June 2005, 04:33
Richard,

In my humble opinion Engery Cultivation & Meditation are two of the most important parts of Martial Arts. I study Kosho Shorei Ryu, which consists of 8 arts, the 1st is Energy Cultivation and the 7th is Meditation. The best Self Defense starts with YOU!! We study Neigong and Chigong as well as follow Andrew Cohens teachings of Impersonal enlightenment and meditation. Engergy Cultivation and Taichi allows you to become more sensitive with feeling the engergies that flow through you and the individual you are trying to help or defend your self against.
If you really look into the old Traditional Japanese and Chinese arts, they all included meditation. A Samurai had to train his mind to be calm in the midst of battle.

P.S. By "old" I mean over 500 years old.

Roighto then.
Mmm, so the meditation to be calm I agree with, but what has that to do with chi? IF you're talking about the flow of physical force within your own and an opponent's body, the chi metaphor makes sense. If you're talking about building up a PPE reservoir, go play Rifts. And by physical force I'm talking things like torque, etc. Mechanics, in other words. Meditation seems to me to be in opposition to this understanding, since the knowledge you need is both internal and external. What you feel within you while meditating is useless without the complementing force from outside, that is, what your opponent feels.

If you want to get that, just train things like stickyhands, reaction drills, etc. Deep concentration on yourself promotes a solipsistic view of forces that's going to hurt when you actually try to use it.

Trevor Johnson
22nd June 2005, 04:37
Harry,
I asked the question exactly as I did because I wanted to hear from others who espoused the traditional views on chi. I was taught as they were taught. I simply changed some of my views. That doesn't mean that I do not value the beliefs and input of others.


This particular turn of phrase makes me wonder, did you post only wanting to hear from those who believe as you do? Because if you did, there's rather few on this board. As you no doubt have already noticed... The concept of chi has changed rather a lot over the years, and current concepts are very far from its origins as an idea. Honestly, the mystical inner forces stuff sounds like a little too much narcotics, not enough training.

Exorcist_Fist
22nd June 2005, 05:03
Trevor, mind if I ask about this:


These are side effects of meditation, not its end.

What in your mind is the end of meditation?

Harry Cook
22nd June 2005, 09:31
Silent Dan, when I said the reports of the chi masters were accurate, I meant the translations of the stories were accurate, as you seem to be of the opinion that the sources I cited were innacurate. The details given in the various Taoist, Buddhist etc etc works reflect the traditional beliefs about the way the masters of ch'i are supposed to be able to manipulate this energy.
However when we try to put these things to the test they fail miserably.
Let us go back to some basics. It is clear that ch'i is meant to function as a kind of strength - the stories are legion of ch'i masters lifting huge stones, knocking opponents over with minimal or zero contact etc etc. These tales are repeated ad nauseum by proponents of this kind of thing.
This can be tested - lift weights, enter a wresting/judo/mma competition and use this power. This would be a fair, empirical test of this 'energy'.
As I said before relying on subjective experience is no use; mental hospitals have patients who 'know' they are Napoleon - it doesn't make them Emperor of the French.
As for Andrew Cohen see http://www.themotherofgod.com/
Just seems like another yoga based cult to me. It is worth reading The Guru Papers Joel Kramer & Diana Alstad, Frog 1993 before you get too deep into this kind of thing.
Harry Cook

Richard Tolson
22nd June 2005, 12:55
This thread is still going off course. Please start another thread if you want to debate what chi is or the reality of chi. Though there seem to be enough threads dealing with that already. :)

So, again I will try to bring the thread back to my original topic:

I was wondering how many martial artists here practice meditation exercises to enhance internal energy (ki/chi/prana, etc.)? This was something strongly emphasized in martial arts training thirty plus years ago. It seems to have been abandoned by most of the martial arts schools that I see today. So, I was wondering, how many people here still practice these various exercises? How many instructors here teach these techniques?

Peter and Daniel,
Thanks for your response on the subject matter! How long have you been practicing internal energy exercises and how do you think they have benefited you?

Cufaol
22nd June 2005, 14:18
I've been practising Prana techniques (yoga) for about 5 years now.
And I'm familiar with Western meditative practises.
my tai-jutsu/ninpo sensei often stresses the importance of kime/kiai and fighting from your hara.

Regards, c.

Exorcist_Fist
22nd June 2005, 14:36
Silent Dan, when I said the reports of the chi masters were accurate, I meant the translations of the stories were accurate, as you seem to be of the opinion that the sources I cited were innacurate. The details given in the various Taoist, Buddhist etc etc works reflect the traditional beliefs about the way the masters of ch'i are supposed to be able to manipulate this energy.

Then I misunderstood you, and you missed my point. The point is that the specific mistranslation is indicative of how the stories get out of hand. The other examples of the dog and the swordsman were not translational issues. The accuracy of an account is not solely a function of the accuracy of the translation. Furthermore, regardless of how widely held a 'traditional' view is, this is not necessarily indicative of it being correct. People once believed the earth was flat, and it didn't manage to make the earth flat.

Richard, this is all I have to say on the matter, please PM me for more data.

Trevor Johnson
22nd June 2005, 17:18
Trevor, mind if I ask about this:



What in your mind is the end of meditation?

Stilling your mind, freeing it of worries and fears so you can function effectively. That is how the samurai used it.

Harry Cook
23rd June 2005, 08:53
The analogy of the flat earth is a nice example of people believing something which seems to fit their subjective experience but which lacks any objective proof. Ch'i is like this.
The question as to whether these things are still taught as much - probably not. Instructors are hopefully better informed and less gullible.
Harry Cook

Richard Tolson
23rd June 2005, 12:42
Back in the eighties I remember reading that Bujinkan members were expected to be able to move away from a sword strike delivered to them from behind as a part of one of their dan (godan?) tests. Was this considered a demonstration of chi ability? Is it still practiced today? Comments from past or present Bujinkan members only would be appreciated.

Toreba
23rd June 2005, 19:18
Back in the eighties I remember reading that Bujinkan members were expected to be able to move away from a sword strike delivered to them from behind as a part of one of their dan (godan?) tests. Was this considered a demonstration of chi ability? Is it still practiced today? Comments from past or present Bujinkan members only would be appreciated.

I am not Bujinkan, but in the Genbukan we have the same test. It does involve ki, and being able to sense the intent of the attacker. So far as I know, it is still practiced.


In regards to the original question, ki training is used in my dojo. I havent practiced it often, so i havent seen any results thus far. Definately because i didnt have an open mind when i was practicing. Im still working on eliminating my own bias before i can start training in earnest.

Trevor Johnson
23rd June 2005, 20:14
Back in the eighties I remember reading that Bujinkan members were expected to be able to move away from a sword strike delivered to them from behind as a part of one of their dan (godan?) tests. Was this considered a demonstration of chi ability? Is it still practiced today? Comments from past or present Bujinkan members only would be appreciated.

2 things. Chi, or sensitivity to your surroundings? Or are they the same thing?

And trying to limit the people who are allowed to respond to a question often doesn't fly here. As you may have noticed.

Richard Tolson
24th June 2005, 04:05
And trying to limit the people who are allowed to respond to a question often doesn't fly here. As you may have noticed.

I realized it would only work with polite people. They would simply start their own thread and leave us at peace to have an intelligent discussion without butting in or trying to highjack the thread.

Brian,
Thanks for your input! I didn't know the Genbukan practiced it as well. Is there much emphasis on chi training?

Toreba
24th June 2005, 17:49
Brian,
Thanks for your input! I didn't know the Genbukan practiced it as well. Is there much emphasis on chi training?
Not at my level. At the higher levels, they work on ki with evasion and stealth techniques. There are probably other things as well, but those are the only ones i have seen.

Trevor Johnson
24th June 2005, 18:29
I realized it would only work with polite people. They would simply start their own thread and leave us at peace to have an intelligent discussion without butting in or trying to highjack the thread.


Academic rigor, learn it, live it, love it! It's what makes e-budo great!

Seriously, though, is chi magic, religion, or science? Only one of the above is undebatable. The other two could win you $1 million, which even in these days of weak US currency is a lot!

Harry Cook
24th June 2005, 23:47
If any of the advanced internal energy practitioners would like to make an easy $1,000,000 see http://skepdic.com/randi.html.
I am sure mr. Randi could come up with a couple of valid tests; if not I could.
Harry Cook

UshiDeshi
25th June 2005, 01:15
Peter and Daniel,
Thanks for your response on the subject matter! How long have you been practicing internal energy exercises and how do you think they have benefited you?

I have only been practicing for about a year now and feel so much better than I did prior to my studies. I have not been sick since, my acupuncturist/sensei tells me my body is in better balance. I have more energy during the day, no longer needing naps or coffee or feeling that afternoon grogginess. I also have better mental clarity as well as improved memory. These are just some of the gross benefits I can feel and see.

As far as utilizing it in my martial arts.......each time you punch you are letting chi flow through you arms, hands/fists into your attackers body. Depending on where you hit this could case serious disruptions in the flow of the meridians, hitting certain points in succession can cause a knockout.

People can argue this until the end of time. But the fact remains, Chi exists and it is/was studied by most Traditional martial arts. 3000 years of successes could be wrong, but I have my doubts.

Harry Cook
25th June 2005, 08:53
3,000 years? Would you like to identify the texts that record ch'i training 3,000 years ago?
Harry Cook

Richard Tolson
25th June 2005, 16:55
Dr. David Frawley, O.M.D., a Vedic scholar, states that Yoga, which deals with pranayama (the original basis of qigong exercises) can be traced back to the Rig Veda, the oldest Hindu text (ca. 2000-1500 BCE). Which could possibly make that 3500 to 4000 years ago.

Harry Cook
25th June 2005, 17:14
I think you are wrong when you equate pranayama with things like ch'i-gung. According to Dr. Kavoor T. Behanan in Yoga A Scientific Evaluation (Dover 1937, 1964) this is quite a common error. He explains "Pranayama comprises different types of breathing. 'Prana' means breath and 'ayama', 'pause'; hence the compound 'pranayama' literally means a cessation or pause in the movement of breath. While in the earlier writings, especially Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, the word is free of all mystical and symbolic interpretations, in the hands of later writers it became equivalent to some psychic force or cosmic element. We shall ignore this unnecessary mystification of the word and use it in its original and correct sense, referring to the normal function of respiration." pp 201-202.
So while there are old references to breathing they have nothing to do with what is now called ch'i-gung. This is a later development. Dr. Behanan clearly has no time for this kind of development. In the preface to the Dover edition he says @wha6t is called for is more experimental work, and less mystery-mongering and grandiose metaphysical speculation.'
How true.
Harry Cook

Richard Tolson
25th June 2005, 20:44
Harry,
That is one man's opinion. Others disagree.
In many cultures the concept of breath developed into a concept of a living force. For example, the Hebrew word ruach originally meant "breath or wind", later it developed into a concept of "spirit or force". This is a common happenstance. Perhaps it is because as mystics within cultures turned more inwards they discovered something that others had overlooked.

With that, my discussions with you and Trevor have ended. I will only respond to those who want to stay on the original topic of this thread.
If is impossible to have a discussion of this topic here at E-Budo, we can move it over to Samurai Bujutsu where thread highjacking is not allowed and courtesy is required.

http://p199.ezboard.com/bsamuraibujutsu

Check out the Esoteric Buddhism forum.

Harry Cook
25th June 2005, 21:22
You are correct it is one man's opinion, but that man was a well educated man expert in both yoga and western psychology. I could say that the source you cited was only one man's opinion.
Interesting idea of courtesy you seem to have. Apparently only those who agree with your ideas are courteous and a debate can only happen between those who share the same opinions?
Ok you don't want your ideas subjected to scrutiny. Goodbye.
Harry Cook

Trevor Johnson
25th June 2005, 22:15
I concur with the above. Breath as physical and breath as spiritual are two different things. Now, you can talk all you want about the latter, but I'd concur with Harry, the former is what's important.

What you don't seem to understand is that you're flipping off one of the best-educated and most intelligent martial artists I know of. He's studied the original texts that you're so poorly mishandling for years, and knows what he's talking about. He's no pushover martially, either. And you're dismissing him as being as ill-educated and rude as you are rapidly displaying yourself to be. I hope you do not also believe that TKD is a 3000-yr-old martial art developed in Korea for kicking people off horses!

Now, all your wishes and hand-waving are, imho, either delusion or religion, and it seems to be the former shading into the latter. I wish you joy of it, and hope that its proponents don't bilk you out of too much money.

As above, goodbye.

Richard Tolson
26th June 2005, 01:17
"And now back to our regularly scheduled program..."

I was wondering how many martial artists here practice meditation exercises to enhance internal energy (ki/chi/prana, etc.)? This was something strongly emphasized in martial arts training thirty plus years ago. It seems to have been abandoned by most of the martial arts schools that I see today. So, I was wondering, how many people here still practice these various exercises? How many instructors here teach these techniques?

So far we have heard from a member of the Genbukan, a Taiji stylist and a Kosho Shorei Ryu stylist.

UshiDeshi
26th June 2005, 01:39
Richard

It truely is a shame to see people out there who pratice martial arts let their egos get into their way. It is truely one of the downfalls with martial arts in the west. I look forward to reading more of this thread and finding out what other martial arts out there stick to the true and traditional Budo.

Domo Arigato!!

Hissho
28th June 2005, 00:36
Deleted - off topic, went to PM instead.

Richard Tolson
28th June 2005, 02:21
Kit,
While you are here.... :)
What role does ki play in Araki-ryu or koryu in general? How would a koryu define it?
Thanks in advance!

Exorcist_Fist
28th June 2005, 10:13
What you don't seem to understand is that you're flipping off one of the best-educated and most intelligent martial artists I know of. He's studied the original texts that you're so poorly mishandling for years, and knows what he's talking about. He's no pushover martially, either. And you're dismissing him as being as ill-educated and rude as you are rapidly displaying yourself to be.

My source in this case is an 80+ year old chinese man who was son of the last Qing General to rule Nanjing. He has been doing CMA since the age of 8, hold 4 doctorates, speaks/spoke 7 languages, and was once one of the sitting heads of research at a university in Shanghai prior to being jailed during the Cultural Revolution. In addition to other considerations he has always been more than willing to point out that during the CR the Communists destroyed a significant body of source materials regarding the development of martial arts in China.

All of this means essentially nothing though, since we are dealing with people's cherished belief systems.

Turtles all the way down!

Cufaol
28th June 2005, 19:59
Okay, I'm trying to put an end to this worthless discussion.

1. Ch'i isn't energy as we know it. Energy is something moving (cf. greek:energeia: to move). Ch'i is an underlying principle of the universe. it can be translated as 'becoming'. everything is becoming (chinese; 'hsing'), not because God makes it move, but because becoming/evolving/changing is the very nature of everything that can qualify as 'existing'.

2. Ch'i is only noticable through it's manifestation, namely changing patterns of information. these patterns are known as 'Do' in japanese. (Information; cf. latin derivate: in-forma-tion--> taking shape.).

3. Everything is ordered in a certain way in this universe. Everything has a place and shape, and is bound/determined to/through the laws of physics. In other terms, every object/subject has bounded energy,or a set pattern, from which it can't escape. Every object has a proper frequence. However, Humans have a certain (limited) amount of free energy. Which we use to do all sorts of things to change the world in a way we think is fit for us.

4. thanks to our free energy, we can use our brain and phonation organs to copy the pattern or wave of other objects/subjects. (to a certain extend ofcourse.) That's what you do when you use mantra's or when you focus on someone you're having a conversation with: You try to be on the same wavelenght/frequence as the other. This opens (has opened) a lot of doors/possibilities for us, and it also explains why we can't do stuff like throwing fireballs: we don't have the necesarry amount of 'power'.

Conclusio: It's all a matter of physics, biology, and human sciences. I'm not a scientist yet (I study linguistics & literature of French and English at a university.). And I'm sure I have used some wrong terms along the way, but the main idea should be more or less understandable and hopefully correct... :rolleyes:

Now, can we all get on with our lives and training?

Best of greetz, c.

Harry Cook
28th June 2005, 22:35
This may be your idea of ch'i, but it is not the same as that used by the Chinese. The philosopher and scholar Wing-Tsit Chan explains that ‘Every student of Chinese thought knows that ch’i, as opposed to li [principle] means both energy and matter, a distinction not made in Chinese philosophy. Both ‘matter’ and ‘ether’ are inadequate. Dubs’ ‘matter-energy’ is essentially sound, but awkward, and lacks an adjective form. Unless one prefers transliteration, ‘material force’ seems to be the best. In many cases, especially before the Neo-Confucian doctrine of li developed, ch’i denotes the psychophysiological power associated with blood and breath. As such it is translated as ‘vital force’ or ‘vital power’, and in the case of hao-jen chih ch’i as ‘strong, moving power’.
A Source Book in Chinese Philosophy Princeton Paperbacks 1963 p 784
Harry Cook

Richard Tolson
29th June 2005, 00:33
Okay, I'm trying to put an end to this worthless discussion...
Now, can we all get on with our lives and training?
Best of greetz, c.

Christophe,
I appreciate the input of your view on chi. However, I don't think this is a worthless discussion. I also have continued with my life during the discussion and train nearly every night. So this discussion doesn't interfere with my life or training. :)

Harry,
Was Wing-Tsit Chan a Chinese martial artist? Did he practice qigong?

Harry Cook
29th June 2005, 10:36
Dr. Wing Tsit Chan taught Chinese philosophy at a number of universities etc in the USA. He was at one time Professor of Chinese Culture and Philosophy emeritus at Dartmouth College.
If you are going to use Chinese terms it is important to use them in the light of what they mean to an educated Chinese.
Harry Cook

Richard Tolson
30th June 2005, 03:08
Dr. Wing Tsit Chan taught Chinese philosophy at a number of universities etc in the USA. He was at one time Professor of Chinese Culture and Philosophy emeritus at Dartmouth College.
If you are going to use Chinese terms it is important to use them in the light of what they mean to an educated Chinese.
Harry Cook

It is more important to use them in the light of how native Chinese martial artists interpret the term. They are the ones who practice and promulgate the exercises that they believe will guide others in the use of chi.
A philosopher's definition of the term "exercise" will not help me lose weight, but a good personal trainer can. Philosophy, like theology, that is not grounded in practice usually amounts to speculation.

Harry Cook
30th June 2005, 08:21
I agree that we need to get away from pointless theory. In the past I have called for properly conducted tests of internal energy. Instead of student compliance what is required is a genuine series of tests to investigate the nature and scope of this 'energy'.
It can be tested by:-
1. entering something like the Kyukoshinkai knockdown championships/Thai boxing matches. When this has been done the ch'i masters do not do very well
2. attempt to lift heavy weights to duplicate or exceed the strength produced by muscular contraction. Again the ch'i masters do not do well.
3. Enter a major judo championship/wrestling event and by rooting the ch'i prevent throws from occuring.
4. Strike/press a measuring device to see if ch'i can improve the power of a strike.
These are all martial aspects, so it should not be difficult for a martial artist trained in internal energy to display it.
Will anyone do these things?
Harry Cook

Richard Tolson
30th June 2005, 12:56
I agree that we need to get away from pointless theory. In the past I have called for properly conducted tests of internal energy. Instead of student compliance what is required is a genuine series of tests to investigate the nature and scope of this 'energy'.
It can be tested by:-
1. entering something like the Kyukoshinkai knockdown championships/Thai boxing matches. When this has been done the ch'i masters do not do very well
2. attempt to lift heavy weights to duplicate or exceed the strength produced by muscular contraction. Again the ch'i masters do not do well.
3. Enter a major judo championship/wrestling event and by rooting the ch'i prevent throws from occuring.
4. Strike/press a measuring device to see if ch'i can improve the power of a strike.
These are all martial aspects, so it should not be difficult for a martial artist trained in internal energy to display it.
Will anyone do these things?
Harry Cook

Probably not. Once again you confuse Chinese folk tales, the urban legends of the past, with the reality of why chi training is practiced. I do not know of any modern qigong or Chinese martial arts practitioner who puts stock in these stories. So why do you continue to want us to perform things that have nothing to do with our training?
There are plenty of martial artists who perform circus type stunts for audience entertainment, but we are not them.
Since you don't even understand the concept of "root" in chi exercises, as revealed by your challenge (#3), it would be best if you stopped your attempt to discredit us until you understand the concepts you are talking about. And let me give you a hint, quoting others will not give you that understanding. You must experience it yourself, then attempt to qualify it in your own terms. Until then you cannot even understand the concepts enough to form a rational set of tests to quantify or qualify the essence of internal energy.
As an ordained minister I would have the same problem trying to convince an atheist of the reality of God(s). Right now there are few means of scientifically proving the existence of chi or God. That doesn't negate the existence of either. At this point the evidence is intimately linked to the experience of the believer and the effect of the power.

Harry Cook
30th June 2005, 15:35
I trained in T'ai Chi Ch'uan with Rose Li in the early 1970s when I was a student of Chinese and I asked her about these ideas. Many of the books on the internal dwell on these ideas, but you say they are not really relevant to martial arts training.
Ok, so why don't you enlighten us as to the point of ch'i development. What in your opinion is the aim of developing ch'i? How does such training fit in with the martial aspects of whatever style an individual does.
As for modern practitioners not believing in these tales, have you read Wolfe Lowenthal's Gateway to the Miraculous? Ch'eng Man Ch'ing apparently believed that the Boxers had the ability to withstand bullets.
Harry Cook

Richard Tolson
1st July 2005, 02:51
I trained in T'ai Chi Ch'uan with Rose Li in the early 1970s when I was a student of Chinese and I asked her about these ideas.

So how long did you train? What style of Tai Chi Ch'uan? Did Ms. Li teach any qigong training? Did you specifically train in any qigong? If so, how long?

Many of the books on the internal dwell on these ideas, but you say they are not really relevant to martial arts training.

Can you name one that is not just relating Chinese folk tales?

Ok, so why don't you enlighten us as to the point of ch'i development. What in your opinion is the aim of developing ch'i? How does such training fit in with the martial aspects of whatever style an individual does.

That is not the point of this thread. The thread was started to find others who trained in this manner. Besides, the answer to your questions lies partly in a former post of mine in this thread. Any deeper discussion than that would take much longer than the few minutes I have a day to devote to this discussion.
BTW, my opinions are my own. I speak for myself, not Chinese martial arts practitioners as a whole. The thread was started so individuals could state their opinions. Unfortunately, you keep highjacking the thread.

As for modern practitioners not believing in these tales, have you read Wolfe Lowenthal's Gateway to the Miraculous?

I believe I did peruse it when it first came out, but did not purchase it. Apparently, I didn't find it of interest. But OK, that is one practitioner. How many people does he claim to speak for?
Of course some people do believe these stories, but some people also still believe the earth is flat.

Ch'eng Man Ch'ing apparently believed that the Boxers had the ability to withstand bullets.
Harry Cook

People have believed many foolish things. I would have to say that internal energy certainly flunked that test. :) So apparently, as I said previously, circus feats or "supernatural feats" should not be attempted in the name of chi training.

Richard Tolson
1st July 2005, 03:10
Oops, I ran out of edit time.

I trained in T'ai Chi Ch'uan with Rose Li in the early 1970s when I was a student of Chinese and I asked her about these ideas.

BTW, what was Ms. Li's opinion on chi? At least that might be relevant to the thread.

Harry Cook
1st July 2005, 10:56
I cannot believe you have never heard of Rose Li. She was the only female student of Teng Yun Feng.
As for chi, she wasn't too impressed by the claims made.
You keep telling us what ch'i isn't. I don't expect you to write a book here, but try to give a few pointers on what you think ch'i is and the conversation can proceed. You say I kepp hijacking the thread, but unless we know what we mean when we talk about ch'i no useful conversation/debate is possible.
Harry Cook

Harry Cook
1st July 2005, 12:13
May I ask. Are you the same Richard Tolson referred to in an earlier discussion here in reference to Arashi Ryu?
Harry Cook

Exorcist_Fist
2nd July 2005, 02:06
I cannot believe you have never heard of Rose Li. She was the only female student of Teng Yun Feng.
As for chi, she wasn't too impressed by the claims made.

Funny, this is exactly what I've been saying all along.

I studied Liu Feng Chun bagua, and currently study Wu taiji and Hao taiji, all of which is tied in with Rose Li's background.

http://www.powerofbalance.com/whoweare1.htm

Here is the source for Rose's lineage.

Richard Tolson
2nd July 2005, 03:23
I studied Liu Feng Chun bagua, and currently study Wu taiji and Hao taiji, all of which is tied in with Rose Li's background.

Daniel,
It sounds like you have a wide M.A. background. Was qigong taught as a part of any of these arts?
BTW, thank you for bringing the discussion back on topic. :)

Exorcist_Fist
2nd July 2005, 04:46
Tai Chi and bagua are considered by some to be martial forms of qi gong. Most systems include some supplementary exercises for qi gong, focusing on developement of tendon strength, flexibility, etc. In my experience, qi gong focuses on some form of physical development along with the "mental" or "Spiritual" aspects.

Exorcist_Fist
3rd July 2005, 03:17
BTW, since Harry mentioned his teacher, I'll mention mine.

Yao Pei Jing was one of Hao Shao Ru's few disciples. When his first choice for successor died, she was reportedly chosen to represent the style, until she temporarily disappeared during the cultural revolution. She Studied Chen taiji under Feng Zhi Qiang when he was in Shanghai, and when he left to return to Beijing, he asked her to teach his classes. She originally, as I understand it, started taiji learning from Mah Yueh Liang, and was also one of his disciples. They remained in close contact until his death. She learned bagua from some guy whose name I could never spell, in the chingwoo association in Shanghai, and went through baishi with him as well. She started cma at the age of 30 or so, having previously studied a family system of qi gong from childhood.

If you want to read more about her, there is an article in the bagua journal.

Butsudoka
7th July 2005, 07:22
One could have easily seen the effectiveness of "ki" or "kokyu" at the recent Aiki Expo put on by Stanley Pranin here in Southern California. Kenji Ushiro sensei is quite amazing and demonstrated various kokyu exercises with people who took is classes. He also talked about sochin kata being the root of everything he was demonstrating.

From what I saw and experienced kokyu and ki are "real" in that they work against and for people. O-Sensei once said that Aikido is about softening the joints. Ushiro sensei also talks about the softness of joints and how training with barbells will actually hinder the development of kokyu power. He also said that physical power declines from the early 20's but kokyu power can continually increase with age.

Ushiro sensei is 56 and had no trouble handling anyone he picked as uke at the seminar. He demonstrated the body action commonly shown by traditional Japanese karate sparring champions and then showed the difference when one used "kokyu" power.

My understanding at this point is that kokyu power is generated through lack of tension in the joints and unified body movement. Normally people generate power by twisting the hips or accelerating one part of the body faster than another. Kokyu movement is "unified" in that everything moves simultaneously. This is one reason samurai swung their arms in phase with their legs (meaning that the left hand and left foot would swing forward at the same time).

One thing is certain. In order to achieve the body state required for performing techniques with "kokyu" one must unlearn the body's natural desire to push with shoulder and/or specific muscle power. "Kokyu" power works on people because their natural reaction is to push against a force but when they try to push someone who has trained their body to move everywhere all at once, such as Ushiro sensei, they move in such a way that the reflex programming of the person who's pushing can't cope with.

One of the problems with "believing" in kokyu is that there are very, very few people who know it, can do it and show it in public. There is really nothing "mystical" about kokyu or ki (at least the martial arts version) except for the fact that it's rare and appears totally fake to the outside observer. The challenge in learning it is that one has to unlearn ones habitual way of moving the body, it's really hard to do and it seems that very few people actually know, understand and teach it.