interesting article

[Strangler]

http://www.grapplearts.com/Submission-Grappling-vs-ju-jutsu.htm

[fifthchamber]

The article was discussed a while back on Budoseek I believe...It is not a great one but one of the better articles that I have read in Combat magazine....
Before anyone else does I would remind you to sign your name after every post as you agreed to in the rules when you joined up...The easy way to do this is in your signature so it is there each time you post.
Regards.

[MikeWilliams]

Hey Ben, what's up? Belated congratulations, btw!

That was a good article, and would act as a very good primer for newbies wondering about ancient vs modern styles of jujutsu.

[cxt]

Interesting article.

My only "hmmmmm" is that as far as I know there is no "classical jujutsu armbar/leg lock" etc. by that I mean that with my own limited exposure to koryu/classical jujutsu I have seen more than a few variations and applications that DON'T look much like what the author refers to as the "classical" jujutsu method.

I have also seen stuff that DOES look pretty much like what shows.

Guess what I am getting at is he seems to be operating under the assumption that all "classical" jujutsu styles are somehow the same.

Then again, I may be WAAAAY overthinking it--would nto be the first time.

Chris Thomas

[Trevor Johnson]

Besides armoring, there's one more big difference between Koryu Jujutsu and submission. Knives. I saw a demonstration by Ellis Amdur and one of his students last Labor Day at the Japan Festival in Saint Louis. Dave Lowry brought in a number of the Koryu practitioners from all over the US, including Mr Relnick, both Skosses, Mr Amdur, and some others whom I didn't recognize. I also saw a demonstration of this in '01 at our Budo Symposium in St. Louis.

Anyway, the demonstration that Mr Amdur gave involved both weapons techniques and a demonstration of his koryu's grappling style, one of the precursors of modern Jujutsu. One of the things I noticed both times was that much of the close-in grappling involved a knife stuck in the sash. Sometimes they had to control the knife and disarm, sometimes the knife was used to kill the opponent, and some of the techniques were very similar to modern sentry-elimination techniques. I don't think that that gets practiced much nowadays. It was also very rough, not nearly as smooth as modern grappling, but much more concerned about a very quick kill.

The other thing, which they mention in the article and I want to bring out, is that submission grappling is more effective as a dueling technique. Its techniques are specialized for single-person combat, much like things like TKD, many types of Karate, etc. You will notice that the koryu instructor was in MUCH more pain as uke and the submission techniques were much more effective at causing such, but when he was doing his techniques he was always nearly standing and ready to maneuver. That's the way most okinawan karate grappling techniques are done as well, if you look in THEIR kata.

[Hissho]

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9525

[fifthchamber]

Hi Mike..
Things here are great actually..Really getting in to teaching and all the rest and having a wife is actually working really well...(Like I never believed it would...Heh.).
Yeah..That was the original thread...Mr LeBlanc pointed it out first there...As I say not a bad one...But not the greatest thing to read on Koryu grappling...
Also, from my experience, while there certainly are leg locks and armbars in Takeuchi Ryu the emphasis is more solidly on the possibility of weapons becoming involved...The forms shown do not use blades but they can all be done with them if needed..And I agree..As far as submission wrestling goes, that is the reason that BJJ came into existance..And it is one of the best arts to look at if thats what you want...To compare them is somewhat uneccessary....They BOTH work...But in different jobs...
Regards.

[fifthchamber]

Okay...But you really won't last long on the forum unless you do..It is one of the more studiously upheld rules that you have already agreed to before you joined this forum..I don't care about it..But it IS a rule here and so you will be asked to do so...Also, to be honest I think the chances of your identity being stolen and used in various supercrimes up and down the country are fairly small...You know...Really...Not really going to happen..But whatever mate..Your call...
Regards..

[Finny]

I bet this is a double standard in regards to gender cause msot females are paranoid about this stuff for example on the myspace forum there is a bunch of females afraid to post their pics up cause the think someone is gonna see them and stalk them or something.

Regardless of whether you think it's gender biased or not (don't see how it could be a 'double standard' when it's a uniform requirement)- when you joined this forum you agreed to sign every post with your real name.

Like Ben pointed out, some people care about this, and some don't (I prefer actually knowing who I'm talking to myself, but if someone doesnt want to post their name, I'm not really bothered).

Either way - the moderators of this forum insist that you follow the rules you agreed to when you came here. No-one forced you to post here - if you choose to do so, you should follow the rules set by the folks who so kindly provide these forums for us.

BTW Ben (or Wayne, if he's here and not off enjoying his honeymoon in England [that's an oxymoron isnt it? enjoy yourself in England? Jokes :D ]) have you heard of Alexander Kask before? Is he a member of the Bitchu Den or Soke/Sodenke lines? I ask because the only overseas instructors of Takeuchi Ryu I've ever heard of have been Bitchu Den - Just curious.

[Hissho]

To compare them is somewhat uneccessary....They BOTH work...But in different jobs...
Regards.

Or in similar jobs - it depends on how you are training and using the techniques and concepts, not really where they come from. Boxing is a one on one ring sport and when appropriately adapted, works for the street. The same is true of grappling methods.

[Hissho]

SNIP- link already posted.

[fifthchamber]

Hi Brendan,
Yes..As far as I know he is a member of the Bichu Den. I am not sure but I believe that he received training under Ono kancho here in Japan. Wayne would know more about him but he does train in Takeuchi Ryu. I also think he is in Canada...But I may be wrong on that one...
And yes, Kitt, I agree...Although what I meant was that the things we learn in Takeuchi Ryu are generally more weapon based than those taught in the BJJ/Modern grappling arts...Just originally designed for different things...Boxing for instance teaches you nothing about knife fighting, although one could certainly use the movements taught in boxing to avoid and hit an armed attacker...Both work...But they do not teach the same things or the same intent.
Regards.
Ben

[Hissho]

In general, yes, but I have found it depends more on how they are taught.

Just because you train with weapons doesn't mean you are training effectively or appropriately with them - depending on the ultimate goal.

And just because you train in what is generally identified as a combat sport does not mean that you don't train it with the weapons based environment in mind.

It depends on the instructor, the instructor's experience, and the ultimate goal of the study as to whether or not this will be successful.

But with the article as a starting point, he clearly is differentiating the two along the same lines you are.