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the Khazar Kid
14th June 2000, 22:01
I am wondering what tactics a samurai on foot would use against a samurai on horseback in Koryu Bujutsu context. Now in mass battle a cavalry charge could be repelled with pike blocks supported by volley fire from the arquebussiers etc., but I am thinking more of individual samurai on foot vs. mounted opponent(s). Would you:

Leap through the air to try to take the enemy off their horse and maybe get control of the horse to even the odds against possible further opponents on horseback?

Or try to kill the horse?

I meant pike blocks not bike blocks, I was typing fast.

Jesse Peters

[This message has been edited by the Khazar Kid (edited 06-15-2000).]

kenkyusha
14th June 2000, 22:10
OT, but this is the second reminder; please sign posts with your name.

Be well,
Jigme

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Jigme Chobang
Kenkyusha@bigfoot.com

Richard Elias
15th June 2000, 01:41
In Yanagi Ryu, we have sword and naginata long-kata which have some techniques against a horseman.
The sword techniques involve sliding your hand down to the kashira end, and striking with one hand. Your on one foot and your other leg is extended back as a counter-balance.
In the naginata techniques, you again slide to the end and use the length of the weapon to reach the horseman. You get to hold on with both hands for this one.
I haven't encountered any techniques, yet,for bare handed against a horseman, though I understand some of the Korean styles have arial kicking techniques intended to be against a horsman, or two riding side by side.

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Richard Elias
Shidare Yanagi Ryu

Jay Bell
15th June 2000, 02:13
Bisento, yari and naginata/maki work nicely against horse. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif

Jay

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Banpen Fugyo

Kolschey
15th June 2000, 03:22
If I am not mistaken, a good bow can also be quite efficacious against cavalry.

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Krzysztof M. Mathews
" For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me"
-Rudyard Kipling

Diane Skoss
15th June 2000, 04:13
Go for the horse's legs (naginata work well for this), or put up a barrier of spears. Horses won't run into them if they can help it.

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Diane Skoss
Koryu.com (http://Koryu.com)

kenkyusha
15th June 2000, 05:54
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Richard Elias:

[snip]
I haven't encountered any techniques, yet,for bare handed against a horseman, though I understand some of the Korean styles have arial kicking techniques intended to be against a horsman, or two riding side by side.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It has been a constant source of wonder to me that some TKD/Hwrang-do folks claim this...

Example:
Take a guy lets say 5'3" 145 pounds, dress him in O-yoroi (which as a cavalry-man is more likely than some goshi on foot) adding another 60 pounds. Then figure the speed of a horse, at full gallop (or even a decent canter)... the spinning back kick looses out! It may not be impossible, but good luck to those who try (oh yeah, didn't those mounted bushi carry sharp-pointy things too? http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif)!

Be well,
Jigme


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Jigme Chobang
Kenkyusha@bigfoot.com

Scott D. Harrington
15th June 2000, 06:41
I picked up a nice book on the Takeda clan and Samurai. To my surprise they demonstrated two jujutsu techniques when both are on horseback. Totally took me by surprise but of course I should have expected it. Probably not practiced much (I'd love to see the ukemi from horseback at speed!) but certainly valid.

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Scott Harrington

Kendoguy9
15th June 2000, 08:24
http://www.thehaca.com/talhoffer.htm

check out this site. it is an old German "bujutsu" manual. it has some stuff about wrestling on horseback and such. just for laughs check out the section on a man vs. his wife. i know i'd run if my girlfriend had a 4-5 lbs. rock in a scarf and wanted to kill me with it.

gambatte!!!

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Chris Covington
Daito-ryu study group
Shinkendo
Kodokan judo

Richard Elias
15th June 2000, 12:58
I asked my instructor about this, he said aside from the obvious-attacking the horse, they would sometimes cut the straps that hold on the sturrips (spelling?)as they rode by, to bring the man down. Horseman would control the horse with the legs rather than the reins, in battle, to free-up their hands. He also said they would cut the saddle straps, which could put the man under his horse. They would also work in teams using cords or chains to either trip-up the horse, or clothes-line the rider. There is also a weapon called a Kumade (bear claw) which was a three or more pronged grappling hook attached to the end of a pole, that was sometimes used to hook the rider. Kama-yari and pole-arms with parrying bars could also be used in a similar fashion.

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Richard Elias
Shidare Yanagi Ryu

[This message has been edited by Richard Elias (edited 06-15-2000).]

Walker
15th June 2000, 19:54
Samurai Boxing:
“Kill the horse and the rider will fall.” http://216.10.1.92/ubb/eek.gif

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-DougWalker

[This message has been edited by Walker (edited 06-15-2000).]

the Khazar Kid
15th June 2000, 21:43
Is it best to go for the horse's legs? Also how would one do this if unarmed?

Jesse Peters

gmellis
16th June 2000, 01:44
are we talking a charging horse or a stationaery (relatively) horse? if it's charging, the legs without a doubt. if it's stationary, that makes it more complicated, because the horse could kick you or rear up and pounce you with its front legs, in addition to the fanatic on top of it trying to kill you. What kind of weapon is the horseman using? our range of options would vary according to whether it was a yari, daito, or whatnot.

[This message has been edited by gmellis (edited 06-15-2000).]

Richard A Tolson
16th June 2000, 06:38
Actually a combination of what Diane and Richard said would be the most strategic approach.
First the horse must be stopped. A wall of spearmen would be employed for this.
After the horse is stopped the spearmen would circle the horse leaving no room for an escape.
Finally footsoldiers armed with one of the dismounting devices Richard mentioned would come to the fore and relieve the horse of its rider.
BTW, the Chinese have a special weapon called a Pu Dao (Horse Cutter Knife) which looks like a Quando, but is shorter, lighter and has a heavy ring for a counterbalance. This device was designed to cut a moving Horse's legs in battle.

Joseph Svinth
16th June 2000, 09:04
There are English-language descriptions of how one stands one's ground in discussions of Lord Kitchener's campaign in the Sudan in 1898. Basically the lancer stands and does not run. (If he does, he dies, but it is hard to convince people of this.)

Cowboys, now, do similar work while breaking horses, so if you're serious about this sort of thing, watch rodeo clowns at work.

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Joe
http://ejmas.com

the Khazar Kid
26th June 2000, 04:00
Are there any Koryu that teach "worst-case-scenario" techniques for one unarmed practitioner against one or more armed horsemen?

Jesse Peters

Undmark, Ulf
26th June 2000, 11:45
The previous posts mentioned Naginata or Yari...and I believe that a group of spearmen could indeed be dangerous for a mounted warrior. There are several accounts on incidents where famous warriors have fallen prey to groups of ashigaru, or foot-soldiers, with spears. But also, lets not forget the guns (as Nobunaga said in "Kagemusha" (Kurosawa): "Shoot their horses"...).

Apart from this, I've heard of a tool called "Uma no hananejiri", used within the Yagyu Shingan ryu, wich is for hooking the horses nostrils and then twisting it...the pain will cause the horse to throw off the rider who could be dealt with after hitting the ground. Interesting!

Regards,
Ulf Undmark

Dale
7th July 2000, 05:28
Our school, Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu, used to specialise in the use of the "Furizue". This is a weighted chain attached to the end of a Hanbo. The warrior held the chain and used the hanbo until opporunity arose and either the horses legs or warriors weapon clashed. The chain would then be released and entangle the horses legs or warriors weapon. Either way this left the enemy either unseated or weaponless (or dead if the nasty weight got lucky).


Yours in Budo
Dale Elsdon

Aaron Fields
7th July 2000, 19:29
"From the dawn of time the fusion of man and horse, has been a tactical advantage in warfare."
My area of research is Mongolian history. As the Mongols are by far history's most successful horsemen, I can tell you what was employed againt them. I will try to keep this brief and general. A number of people have already mentioned this, but the most efficent method is attacking the horse. The biggest target, the best chance. More people have been killed from the fall (or the trampling that follows in a cavalry charge)than can be recounted. For a footman yari and naginata attack the horse the best (leverage and of more importance distance as the horse always moves faster than his foot-bound ememy,)better yet bows, but Mongols used those as well. Up close cavalry-men use the horse as a weapon (as well as there own) and in all honesty the footman is at a huge disadvantage. Living (and riding, I won my stallion Jegiigyama, Little Goat, in a two out of three fall wrestling match) in Mongolia I have witnessed amazing feats of horsemanship (including mounted archery, which as most know the Mongols used to great success.) I can say from experience (as well as history telling us) that a betting man in a contest of footman against cavalry, at any range, will bet on the cavalry. One last point, we see in Japan, post-attempted Mongol invasions, the rise and re-evaluation of yari and naginata.

Maybe not brief enough, sorry.

"call me ariag"

Jason Backlund
7th July 2000, 21:45
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aaron Fields
"One last point, we see in Japan, post-attempted Mongol invasions, the rise and re-evaluation of yari and naginata."
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This is true. Also, the Mongol troops that landed during the first invasion were almost entirely comprised of foot soldiers, since they had arrived by boat. When the less organized Japanese cavalry set out to meet the invaders, their horses were stunned and confused by the sound of cymbals and explosives (not to mention arrows). Then, once the horse's charge was broken, foot soldiers would surround the bushi and use spears to attack him and his horse (which stayed well out of reach of the rider's tachi). This reinforced for the Japanese the value of ashigaru and the use of yari, naginata, and formations to deal with cavalry.

BTW- The tachi and tanto eventually did see their day during the second Mongol invasion. The Bushi largely held the Mongols on their ships and used specially designed boats to get onboard with the invaders. There they engaged them with tachi and tanto, which the Mongols weren't quite ready for. But that is another story!

Jason Backlund
Kobushin Kai
Yamagata Ryu Bujutsu, Matsubara Ryu Bujutsu

Dojorat
8th July 2000, 04:15
Greetins,

I can't help but wonder... is the fight choreography in the "Seven Samurai" an accurate representation of how foot soldiers, in this case hastily trained peasant villagers, would've handled mounted Samurai, in this case Ronin Bandits. The seven would've obviously used their training and expertise instructing the villagers. I know the Japanese movie producers used well trained expertise in preparing their movies. I can only think this is such a case.

Is it History or is it Hollywood?

Cheers,

kenkyusha
8th July 2000, 04:57
Originally posted by Dojorat
Greetins,

I can't help but wonder... is the fight choreography in the "Seven Samurai" an accurate representation of how foot soldiers, in this case hastily trained peasant villagers, would've handled mounted Samurai, in this case Ronin Bandits. The seven would've obviously used their training and expertise instructing the villagers. I know the Japanese movie producers used well trained expertise in preparing their movies. I can only think this is such a case.

Is it History or is it Hollywood?

Cheers,


Well,

The fight choreographer for that was Sugino Yoshio, who in addition to training in modern budo trained in Katori Shinto Ryu under the visiting shihan at the Kodokan (a lengthy set of interviews with him appears on the <a href="http://www.aikidojournal.com">Aikido Journal</a> website; he discusses a bit about the actors from that production).

Be well,
Jigme

Aaron Fields
10th July 2000, 19:00
Mongol footmen... were conscripts (this is the era of Khublai Khan, Chinggis Khan's grandson. This means heavy use of Chinese troops as the capital had already been moved.) Without getting into detail, tactics employed by the Mongols during the first invasion suprised the Japanese. According to many of the Persian accounts of the battles more horsemen and ignited arrows got on shore more than the Japanese accounts suggest. (Of course with regards to the history of Central Asia and the surrounding sedentary cultures, Mongols esp. this is the no norm not the exception.) But, the Mongols were not sailors (they conquered the largest land empire in history as well as several feats that even modern armies have failed at) and the typhoons were to be their undoing. Anyway, this thread is moving in a direction that is not its intent....

"call me airag"