Why is Martial Art training that expensive?

[Cufaol]

I'm not sure wheter this is the right place to post this, but anyway, here goes: Why do you guys think that Martial Arts training is very often extremely expensive? And howcome that everybody seems to accept that without further questioning? By the way, I'm not only talking about bad budo-like traniners...It's a very common thing, especially in the more traditional styles of Martial Arts such as Wing Chung, Ninjutsu,...etc.

Kind regards, C.

[MikeWilliams]

That depends.

Are you training in a full-time dojo? Is this the instructor's primary source of income?

If so, then there's your answer.

If you think MA is expensive, you should try joining a gym, or taking pilates classes, or musical instrument lessons.

[Cufaol]

1. it isn't my sensei's primary source of income.
2. I'm aware of the fact that other occupations are very expensive too indeed, but I don't see why one should ask large amounts of money for teaching things that everyone should be able to learn.
After all, a sensei ought to ask compensation for his transport, and dojo-rental. But I'm sure that the cost of that isn't worth 20 euros/student.

greetz, c.

[Neil Yamamoto]

Isn't a sensei due some compensation for his energy and efforts teaching?

edited for spelling.

[gendzwil]

20 euros/student/what time frame? If per month, that's quite cheap. If per class, I'm not sure...

Here's some math for you - to rent a high school gym here in Saskatoon, Canada, it costs about $CDN35/hour. A two hour practice is $70, twice a week at 4.4 weeks/month yields about $750, about 500 euros. So I'd need minimum 25 students to charge 20 euros/month for only two practices a week. In a small city in Canada where everything is pretty cheap compared to say New York or London or Stockholm. And without taking any compensation or allowing for any other expenses.

Now if I want to run a full-time school where I have to own or lease a property, pay utilities and taxes and also somehow put food on the table...

[Cufaol]

The dojo is a secundary income in this case.
the charge is 20 euros/month, which I find a lot. Then again, we can't be all rich canadians now can we?

regards, c.

[Blackwood]

20 Euros a month? That we should all be so lucky! Even at once a week that is a bargain.

The most inexpensive places in my area are running around US$65 a month which is at least twice as much as you're paying.

[gendzwil]

The dojo is a secundary income in this case.
the charge is 20 euros/month, which I find a lot. Then again, we can't be all rich canadians now can we?
As I outlined in my post, 20 euros a month would indicate to me that your instructor is barely covering his costs, never mind gouging you. I'm not sure how your little dig about rich Canadians applies.

[MikeWilliams]

I don't see why one should ask large amounts of money for teaching things that everyone should be able to learn.

First of all, why should everyone be able to learn it? And if everyone could learn it, why would you need a teacher?

Secondly, do you have a job? If so, I assume you are being recompensed for providing some kind of service? Why shouldn't your clients/boss/company get your time and skills for free?

You get what you pay for in this world. If you're not happy with the price, go elsewhere.

[Sharp Phil]

Everyone has a right to defend themselves. Nobody has the right to somebody else's time or effort without their consent, however. There isn't an instructor in the world who owes you free instruction.

Now, on the topic of cost: I've seen prices for a month's instruction that range anywhere from $75 USD to perhaps an average of $125 USD to as high as $200 or even $250 USD. Broken down, that's anywhere from around $20 USD a week to $50 or $60 a week. Divide that by, say, two or three classes a week, conservatively, and you're paying $20 or less per class. That's only twice what a movie will cost you these days, and about as much if you buy the bucket of soda and the barrel of popcorn they laughingly call "small."

Let's round, now, for ease of math. Say your teacher has 30 students. He makes $150 USD per student per month. That's $4500 per month. Now subtract from that the following: Utilities

Rent or Mortgage Payments

Insurance, including liability insurance

Shared equipment, mats, and other overhead items

Marketing, including Yellow Pages listings, fliers, and commercials

Necessary maintenance, if any

Lawyer's fees for liability issues, waivers, incorporation, etc.

Billing service fees, accounting, business taxes, etc.

Property taxes, if applicable

There are probably a lot of expenses I'm not considering here. That $4500 a month is starting to get eaten up pretty fast, isn't it? Especially when you consider what the rent per month is on desirable commercial space in a decent location, coupled with the types of insurance and legal fees one must pay to run a school safely, and there isn't much margin for profit -- if at all. Now take a look at the tiny bottom line and consider that if your instructor does what he does for a living, he's got to live on that -- and perhaps even support a family.

I'd say even the more expensive martial arts schools offer good value for the cost, provided the instruction is competent.

[jest]

Our club only charges 12.50 euros a month, and then it's possible to do 4 MA (if you had the time and physical fortitude), kendo, jodo, iaido and kenjutsu, in a rented school's gym. I'm still amazed at how little I have to pay.

There's a dojo in a nearby city that's associated with ours for one MA and prices there are considerably higher, because it's the only source of income of the head. They also have stratified memberships; take one class a week and you pay x, for two classes a week you pay y, etc.

[gendzwil]

My example was assuming completely non-profit. If I were to do a little math for a small for-profit dojo (all Canadian dollars), some of these are guesses

rent - 2,000 square feet at $10/sf/year = $20,000
utilities - $500/month = $6,000
business phone - $100/month = $1,200
building insurance - $1,000
liability insurance - $2,000
matts/flooring - one time investment $20,000, amortize over 5 years - $4,000
other renovations, furniture - invest 10,000 over 5 years - $2,000
consumable supplies (stationary, paper towels etc) - $1,000
computer, billing software - one time investment $3000 over 5 years - $600
business license - $500

So assorted costs are pushing $40,000 and I've probably estimated low here. Assuming a gross salary of $40,000 now that's $80,000 to account for. In this town the maximum I can get away with charging is $100/month/student so that means I need at least 67 students. Assuming each student attends 10 hours of classes/week as would be expected in a commercial operation, and that class sizes are kept under 25, I would need to be on the floor teaching 30 hours a week, in addition to all the other duties of running a small business.

Doesn't sound too glamorous to me. That 40K doesn't include any benefits and continued employment is risky. Think I'll stick to writing code and volunteering at the Y.

[Rogier]

What always makes me wonder is why people complain about martial arts being expensive whilst they pay over a 100 euros per month for a standard gym with fancy equipment.

If you are paying 20 euros a month you should get down on your bare knees and thank god (or your instructor).

If your instructor was really smart he'd change his "title" to Personal Fitness Instructor, then you'd be paying 50 euros a lesson.

[Joshua Smith]

My God man! *only* 20 Euros a *month*??

Just like they all said...you are very lucky.

My nearest dojo charges $80 a month last time I checked. The 2nd nearest one is $60....

Don't complain when you have such a good deal on your hands...(now that you realize it ;))...

God bless,
J.Smith

[Cufaol]

well, I guess you guys have a point...
Thanks for your insights!

Best of greetz, c.

[Evan London]

No body mentioned membership fees for:
1) Instructor's membership in the sponsoring organization. Whithout that, ther is no granting rank.

2) The instrucotor's fees for training with their teacher. Who wants to train with someone who doesn't train to advance themselves?

3) Costs for training weapons, kick and punch bags, etc. Can't train in kenjutsu or bojutsu without the right tools.

From where I stand, 20 euros a month is a blessing!

Ev

[philipsmith]

Just a UK perspective.

It currently costs us around £20,000 (30,000 euros) per year simply to meet our overheads, rent, utilities etc. and none of the instructors take a fee.

Students pay around 50 euro/month otherwise we wouldn't survive, 20 sounds good from here.

[Dafydd]

martial arts places are often pricey , mats and renting a hall in a busy area can be very expensive , although many sites I've seen many seem fine on lowering prices for a peticual student if they are in financial or are full time student or somthing

[Gimbo]

For the club Im at its $100 for a semester (sept-dec then jan-june), thats twice a week for 1 1/2 hours, its free for me. Not only that I can go to the nearby club on the opposite days, so I can go 4 days a week, for free. This is small town ontario, I think I have it pretty good right now.
We rent a gym at a local public school.

[Bronson]

The place I volunteer to teach at is able to keep dojo dues down to $25/month USD (so far). We've got a nice facility but the only way we could do it was to come together with other arts and share the space. We're a non-profit, and all the instructors volunteer their time, along with many people pitching in for maintenance and whatnot. Each art operates as a seperate entity but all dues go to the dojo as a whole.

Last I heard we have to maintain 150 students dojo wide just to break even every month.

My Sensei charges $40/month USD at his school and has anywhere from 50-75 regular paying students...he loses money on his dojo every month.

When I look at standard skilled labor rates in my area they are run between $40-$75/HOUR. The shop rate where I work is right in line with that. Now, I would definitely consider my Sensei to be skilled in his art not to mention he's got 30 years experience in it, yet people still complain that $40/MONTH is too much :rolleyes:

[Moniteur]

The old fencing club I taught at had its own space, about 4000sq ft (2000 usable for fencing), no airconditioning, on the second floor of an old warehouse/office building on the edge of the warehouse district. We paid $350/month rent, plus utilities that included water, electric, gas, and business phone. those expenses added up to about $600/month including the rent.

To this we add the yearly insurance and US Fencing membership, which cost another $250 or so spread out over the year. We also had club owned fencing gear (about 20 masks/jackets and 30 some weapons) the instructors were volunteer, computer equipment was donated. We did have to purchase and maintain electrical scoring equipment etc, and those scoring boxes cost about $400-$600 depending on when they'd been purchased..

We had a list of about 50 'active' members, of which only 15 to 25 were actually 'active' showing up, and paying on a regular basis. Coaches did not charge for individual lessons, and their expenses weren't comped for tournaments or travel. We charged $60/month if students used our equipment, and $50/month if they had their own. We broke even plus a little, on average, though several months a year would be in the red. Overall, we'd make about $1200/year in so-called profit, which would get reinvested into equipment, or the premises. Instructors did not pay membership dues. We did not have hot water, showers, air conditioning, weights, pool, etc..

Uncertain membership numbers require an increase in dues - in order to offset the variability in what is actually coming in, so that one can cover ones bills.

Now, we're in a very nice fitness club, paying individual memberships only, with full access to the club any time its open, and two set classnights a week. We now have Air conditioning, showers, hot water, sauna, towel service, pool, weights, track, racquetball courts, etc. Instructors now pay membership dues as well. Cost is about $50/month, and we have no administration fees or other pains of a small business. Our head instructor is a fencing master who has 54 years of experience teaching, and who doesn't get paid a dime. We also now have to come up with money out of a smaller group, for the annual insurance, so that we can fence at the health club....
on the whole, its the same price, but with much better amenities.

The downside however, is that we don't have a lease that allows us to know that we're stable in location for several years. Certainty in location costs.

[Wounded Ronin]

I guess that I've had really good karma, because I've found lots of quality martial arts training falling into my lap either for free or for very inexpensive rates.

If you go to a school, it will be expensive, probably. If you learn from a club or an individual, it could be free.

You don't *need* to go to a school if all you want are the skills and the practice.

[gendzwil]

Certainty in location costs.

Not in our case. We're a regular program with the local YMCA and have good relationship with them - I think that's more certain than whether you can make the lease payments or not based on fluctuating membership. Before the Y signed us up, we rented space in school gyms and never knew from year to year which school, what days or even if we would get space - always last on the list, and never confirmed until late August. Now we have a central location, amenities, some built-in promotion and a certain level of respectability from being associated with the Y. Plus the fees are reasonable, the Y staff handles all the headaches of collection/registration and us instructors don't pay a dime (we aren't paid a dime, either). We aren't going anywhere else if we can help it. The only thing I wish for is a better floor - it's got good spring but it needs repair.

[crazykl45]

The dojo is a secundary income in this case.
the charge is 20 euros/month, which I find a lot. Then again, we can't be all rich canadians now can we?

regards, c.


That's nothing. You should try finding a piano teacher in the U.S. Lessons in Jazz in my town command $52 per lesson on average.

The more I look at it, it seems that the actual price of a budo lifestyle isn't that high.

[poryu]

HI

if your complaining that 20 euros a month is too much for even one lesson a week I suggest you quit now.

a gym will charge you double that per week.

Your instructor may have already put many years in to training to be able to become an instructor and he quite possibly had to pay more then you do now.

I started in the bujinkan in 1985. Back then I used to pay about 7 euros a month for 4 classes, my train fare each week was about 8 euros, so over a month i paid with training fees, train fare, lunch well over 40 euro's a month.

Get over it you tight git, pay it or quit.

(PS - today 20 years later my students pay me about 20 euros a month)

[kabutoki]

Hi,
in my dojo every student pays 20 Euro a month (four times training in the dojo + extra outdoor sessions). Most students in our group are either out of work or in school/university. The money is only used to pay the rent for our facility which is a ballet school and is not connected to the training per se. The guy I teach with and myself don´t get a single penny out of it. Me and some students drive about 100 km each week to the dojo...

Karsten

[davidgibb]

Just wondering, when you go up in rank and get charged for that, lets say belt 5 gets promoted to belt 6 and gets added 50 bucks to the bill, does the dojo profit from that? just wondering since no one mentioned that part. or would it cost the dojo 50 bucks to promote belt 5 to belt 6.

[gendzwil]

I think it really depends on the dojo. We don't charge for internal tests. We give the kids embroidered patches to wear for their rank and suck up the cost as a club. But when it comes time to do the official tests with a grading panel from CKF, then we charge. There's a fee to take the exam and another one if you pass. For the first test (ikkyu) I think it's $20 and $25 respectively. The exam fee helps cover the cost of running the exam (paying for examiners' travel costs, etc), the second goes towards CKF for issuing the certificate and so forth. As you go up the ranks the test fee climbs a little but the exam fee gets quite high. That's a straight cash injection for CKF.

[poryu]

Hi

Just like Neil says its all depending on the dojo.

I am in the bujinkan and there is a set of international rules which also lists the prices (which are in yen)

kyu grade - 3,000 yen (approx £15GBP/$30USD)
1st dan - 10,000 (£50GBP/$100USD)
2nd - 20,000 (£100/$200USD)
etc etc


The dojo isnot to charge haigher than this as the examiners fee is already built intot hat cost with some for him and some for Japan.

The sad side it is abusable with soe instructors grading people prior to going to japan to raise some extra spending money

[gendzwil]

Yeah, failed to mention - the CKF sets those fees, we don't. If it were up to us we'd charge nothing but CKF does need sources of revenue to support their activities so we don't begrudge them the fees too much.

[Moniteur]

Not in our case. We're a regular program with the local YMCA and have good relationship with them - I think that's more certain than whether you can make the lease payments or not based on fluctuating membership. Before the Y signed us up, we rented space in school gyms and never knew from year to year which school, what days or even if we would get space - always last on the list, and never confirmed until late August. Now we have a central location, amenities, some built-in promotion and a certain level of respectability from being associated with the Y. Plus the fees are reasonable, the Y staff handles all the headaches of collection/registration and us instructors don't pay a dime (we aren't paid a dime, either). We aren't going anywhere else if we can help it. The only thing I wish for is a better floor - it's got good spring but it needs repair.


I don't disagree exactly. We're in a similar situation currently. We're working out of a local health club that is attached to a hospital. We don't pay for space, we merely pay for our own memberships, and the national association dues that provide us with insurance.

However - certainty does cost when your organization does it itself. In our case at the old club, we were on a fixed term lease with options to renew. We had the space as long as we wanted it, and we paid for that certainty.

The Y situation is a good deal, but relationships aside, a change in philosophy at the top could cause major problems - ie, 'oh, by the way, we're running basketball leagues everynight from now on in your space - bye!' That happened to our club back before I was even fencing, probably 20 years ago now, while our club was at the Y. Schools, same issue. Renting your own brick and mortar however.... different story. Agreed about fluctuating membership sizes. We ran our fencing club on an annual contract that cut a serious break in dues vs. paying month to month. Definitely different solutions for different problems, and frankly, we're happier now where we are with the health club.

[gendzwil]

Well as a matter of fact we used to be with the Y years ago and a change in the program directors got us ousted - but we found out later the board knew nothing of it and were some ticked. We managed to get back in when the problem person was eventually replaced. If we ever face the same situation again, we're going to be a lot more active in trying to save our butts than before. While we were out we found out the hard way that proper space for kendo is damn near impossible to find in this town. Every good-sized gym with a decent floor in the school system is sucked up by indoor soccer from October through March. Everywhere else we look there's issues with ceiling heights, floor quality, you name it. And short of a long-term lease on our own facility, we have no guarantees we'll be in the same space from one year to the next. Plays hell with trying to keep a steady membership. And the problem with the long-term lease is that with the non-profit club type environment, someone has to take personal risk and gamble that we can support our financial commitments to the space. Ain't going to be me.

[Moniteur]

Well as a matter of fact we used to be with the Y years ago and a change in the program directors got us ousted - but we found out later the board knew nothing of it and were some ticked. We managed to get back in when the problem person was eventually replaced. If we ever face the same situation again, we're going to be a lot more active in trying to save our butts than before. While we were out we found out the hard way that proper space for kendo is damn near impossible to find in this town. Every good-sized gym with a decent floor in the school system is sucked up by indoor soccer from October through March. Everywhere else we look there's issues with ceiling heights, floor quality, you name it. And short of a long-term lease on our own facility, we have no guarantees we'll be in the same space from one year to the next. Plays hell with trying to keep a steady membership. And the problem with the long-term lease is that with the non-profit club type environment, someone has to take personal risk and gamble that we can support our financial commitments to the space. Ain't going to be me.

Yep - same wavelength here. I'm sure as heck not putting my non-existant assets on the line for it. Don't remind me of ceiling height either. We used to have some fluorescent lights that hung down (the long bulb type). I put a sabre blade through one one day. That was a very enlightening experience I must say.

[kyobukan]

I have a friend in Toronto who teaches figure skating and makes over $100,000/year. You would be surprised what rich parents will pay out for their kids to train.

Why should a karate instructor be poor?

[Moniteur]

I have a friend in Toronto who teaches figure skating and makes over $100,000/year. You would be surprised what rich parents will pay out for their kids to train.

Why should a karate instructor be poor?


Holy Mackeral.. If only I could figure skate. No. Wait. scratch that. That would be singularly unattractive, and I'd go to jail, and the little dresses would never fit right.

Seriously though - I think we'd find that there is a divide between incoming for say, fencing or karate, and figure skating and ballet.

I do know a fencing coach in KC who was offered a salary position at $40,000/year.. of course, the problem is that the offer was in NYC, and you can imagine what sort of cardboard box $40k/year would rent in NYC as 'living space'..

That said, if legit instructors can make money at it, more power to them. My girlfriend's parents paid money hand over fist for her ballet instruction back in the day. People tend to balk at paying that for minor sports around here though.

100k/year? jeeze...what am I doing in law school. sigh.

[kyobukan]

the trick is his private lessons are only 15mins long. (skating) maybe it's because
skating is any olympic sport and or because the parents think there is a pot of gold at the end?

[gendzwil]

Skating is not only an olympic sport, it's one of the glamour olympic sports. Also there is the possibility of a professional career even if you don't get to the olympics. I know a girl who never made it to nationals, although she did get to the Western Canadian championships several times. She's planning to audition for one of the professional ice shows.

[FastEd]

Well as a matter of fact we used to be with the Y years ago and a change in the program directors got us ousted - but we found out later the board knew nothing of it and were some ticked. We managed to get back in when the problem person was eventually replaced.


Hey Neil,

I'm curious, was this person someone who did'nt like martial arts..? It seems rather contray to the Y's philosophy to just boot a group.

[gendzwil]

I'm curious, was this person someone who did'nt like martial arts..? It seems rather contray to the Y's philosophy to just boot a group.
He got his job because his grandfather was chair or something like that. Everybody in the organization hated him. I think he just liked to throw his weight around. We've been through 3 people in that same position since we've come back (tends to be PE types on their first job) and they've all been very supportive.

[MarkF]

He got his job because his grandfather was chair or something like that. Everybody in the organization hated him. I think he just liked to throw his weight around. We've been through 3 people in that same position since we've come back (tends to be PE types on their first job) and they've all been very supportive.

I have been through the same trials and tribulatons with these types. Because an organization is non-profit and has a certain philosophy concerning what they do and why does not guarantee good management particularly when left to one person. Most Young men and Young Women's organization are generally good people, including the YMCA and the YMHA and other such groups. Once in a while, you get a person in charge who wants to run the show his way and problems do arise.

It does not seem to be a problem of hating martial arts, but one of a swelled head and a person who believes everyone should be treated the same. The problem here is that not everyone is the same. As an example, senior citizens are charged less or not at all. Some, however, did not want to be treated differently, but most were thrilled not having to pay monthly plus the daily dues of two dollars to use the facilities such as the pool and steam room. People are different so one accomodates. Besides, it doesn't really make a big difference on the money end, but some just like being god. In general, senior dan graded judoka did/do not pay anything which was the complaint with my teacher's two dojo, both YMCA, same managers. They did not last long. Rules should be followed when they make sense and are not arbitrary, but one needs to know how to bend them and still stay within the rules, or appear to be within the rules. A little cheating is sometimes necessary.;)


Mark