New Scroll - Pants! [Archive]

CityShorinji

28th June 2005, 13:56

What do you mean Sean, we have to wear scroll-pants now as well?

I'm not surprised the new scroll is awful. Although I haven't seen it yet, I have already made clear to Sensei Mizuno that I am not at all comfortable with the idea of saluting a corporate badge. The fact that it appears to be tat with quality unworthy of kiss-me-quick beach resort standard only serves to underline my resistance.

I suggest that as Hombu are hell-bent on replacing everything, we should go the whole hog and replace gassho rei with the ancient greeting of the full moon, a symbolic traditional whereby two large, and in the case of some, overlapping expanses of flesh are presented in a unique spirit of utter derision and contempt. I'll leave it to the rest of you to decide where to place the R and its circle.

colin linz

28th June 2005, 23:20

I haven’t seen the new scroll as yet. I guess if it is as bad as reported I will have to keep reminding myself it is Shorinji Kempo, and the memory of Doshin So that I’m paying my respect to, not just something hanging on the wall.

David Dunn

29th June 2005, 00:22

Haven't seen the new scroll, but I think it is funny how people would be concerned about the look of the scroll. Isn't it the words that are important, rather the type of paper they are written on? I, for one, would rei to the Dokkun written on the back of a kleenex (maybe even a used one if that was all that was available).

Dax (and David),
it's the same as the lapel badge.

I hung mine up at home, and the string untied itself, it fell down, and the gold ball on the end of one of the sticks fell off. Unfortunately I was able to mend it.

colin linz

29th June 2005, 02:27

I would love to know what was going through the WSKO committee’s minds when they designed the new symbol, characters, and scroll. It seems the image is moving towards cheap and tacky, rather than deep and meaningful. I have also been wondering what demographic WSKO have identified as their customer base, as much of the new corporate identity seems aimed at a very young market sector.

sean dixie

29th June 2005, 14:55

I hung mine up at home, and the string untied itself, it fell down, and the gold ball on the end of one of the sticks fell off. Unfortunately I was able to mend it.

Boring moment at work - boy did that cheer me up! :)

paul browne

29th June 2005, 15:51

Gassho,
This is a little off topic, but I have a question/observation that I think may be relevant.
In Japan Shorinji kempo is taught on two tiers, for want of a better word. The high school and most university clubs teach it as a sporting activity much like other budo forms are taught (Kendo, Judo, Karate, sport aikido, whatever.)
They give a cursury nod to howa, seiho etc. and concentrate on Embu, group embu and randori.
In the privately run Branches, usually termed Doin, Shorinji Kempo is taught in the manner we have come to recognise.
This is why in the syllabus the dan grades are differentiated (for example) between Sandan (a technical grade) and Chukenshi (a technical and philosophical grade).
My question is have Hombu/WSKO assumed that most kenshi (and all foreign Branches) are following the 'sporting' activity? and hence it matters little what symbolises the shimpan in the dojo.
I cannot imagine that the various Doin in Japan will swallow having the entire 'culture' of their practise not only changed (which for valid reasons may be acceptable) but downgraded. My experience of the Doin is limited to visiting the Rakuto Doin many years ago but I remember Morikawa sensei dojo as having a very spiritual (as well as martial) approach to training and cannot for one minute imagine him or his sons, and other seniors accepting a disneyfication of their art.
So, ramblingly, my questions are, what is the feeling regarding this in Japan among the Doin, with whom we have most in common?, what are they doing about getting Hombu to realise the depth of feeling?, and to what extent is this an irreversible trend?
I must say I find this poorly considered alteration to the shimpan scroll much more disturbing than the change in badge or dogi 'wars' that have been mentioned since this most directly impinges on the impressions of both outsiders and new students.
Kesshu
Paul

David Dunn

29th June 2005, 17:23

That very question (what do the Japanese branches think of all this?) is one that Kimpatsu has some thoughts on, being in the thick of it. I don't want to try to convey someone else's thoughts, but Tony if you're reading and want to make a contribution, I'll forward it to the thread if the moderators allow.

Our branches are all shibu actually. WSKO branches can only be shibu, not doin, and thus aren't required to teach Kongo Zen. I think there may well be an assumption that we don't want it any other way, or more likely a prejudice that we are incapable of understanding it. I can't understand why WSKO branches can't be doin if they want to be - contingent of course on the branchmaster passing all the requisite exams and interviews.

The manji is a (the) symbol of Shorinji Kempo. I've never had a problem with its presence on shomen. Nonetheless, it being there required explanation of what it is (manji plus dharma), and thus asked kenshi to at least think about Zen. The new scroll is just a pennant, and doesn't require an explanation, even if one may be given (I have done that in the latest BSKF newsletter). If the manji dharma kakejiku cannot be used anymore, why not at least some calligraphy like kyakka shoko, ken zen ichinyo, jiko no shiawase... Kaiso has calligraphed all of those and more, and at least we would then have to explain some aspect of tetsugaku.

Gary Dolce

29th June 2005, 18:38

WSKO branches can only be shibu, not doin, and thus aren't required to teach Kongo Zen.

I think this should read "WSKO branches can only be shibu, not doin, and thus aren't allowed to teach Kongo Zen." What angers me is not that I am not required to teach Kongo Zen, but that I am not allowed to teach it under the new rules.

The manji is a (the) symbol of Shorinji Kempo. I've never had a problem with its presence on shomen. Nonetheless, it being there required explanation of what it is (manji plus dharma), and thus asked kenshi to at least think about Zen. The new scroll is just a pennant, and doesn't require an explanation, even if one may be given (I have done that in the latest BSKF newsletter). If the manji dharma kakejiku cannot be used anymore, why not at least some calligraphy like kyakka shoko, ken zen ichinyo, jiko no shiawase... Kaiso has calligraphed all of those and more, and at least we would then have to explain some aspect of tetsugaku.

I agree. At a very basic level, I simply cannot understand why something in Kaiso's own calligraphy should be banned from view. What does this imply about his legacy? At the very least, an alternative that more clearly represents our philosophy would be preferable to a corporate logo. Something in Kaiso's own calligraphy would be ideal.

Steve Williams

29th June 2005, 21:00

If the manji dharma kakejiku cannot be used anymore, why not at least some calligraphy like kyakka shoko, ken zen ichinyo, jiko no shiawase... Kaiso has calligraphed all of those and more, and at least we would then have to explain some aspect of tetsugaku.

We can display any of the calligraphy mentioned above..... but the "central symbol [scroll]" must be the new one.......

The scroll is not that bad...... from the "dojo floor" you can't really tell how "tacky" the quality is..... the symbol is really just that..... a symbol.... it is what is behind the symbol that is of most importance...... focus on that and not on the materials used.

sean dixie

29th June 2005, 21:28

the symbol is really just that..... a symbol.... it is what is behind the symbol that is of most importance...... focus on that and not on the materials used.

Sorry to disagree Steve but symbols aren't just symbols; for thousands of years they have held our attention and focus. They can encourage us to question and make us think. All I'm typing just now are symbols. When I face the manji I think about dhama because the symbol is there. Don't get me wrong, I can see all the arguements, but for an organisation like ours this new scroll is....PANTS! I suggested to Sensei a better idea would be some thick parchment to stick OVER the centre of our currant scroll. If it was thick enough the manji wouldn't show and cost-wise they could even throw in a free prit stick and still keep it under a fiver.

David Dunn

29th June 2005, 23:47

Jung had this idea that we have an `unconscious' that is common to all of us. This is manifested in symbolic themes in dreams, myths, religion, art and so on. It has been suggested that the manji is a universal symbol because it is part of the collective unconscious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Jung
http://www.answers.com/topic/swastika

I don't know much about Jung, let alone endorse his theories. As you can see he had a bit of a run-in with Freud. However, symbols are clearly powerful and full of meaning. This one has a long history. I thought Sagan's theory was interesting (see second link).

colin linz

30th June 2005, 00:38

I think symbols have clearly demonstrated that they can be powerful. The business community wouldn’t spend the massive amounts of money on their development and protection if they were not sure that they were worthwhile. Further to the logo is the development of corporate cultures and identities. In our case I wonder how something so important that we collectively show a ritualistic expression of respect to it, yet not important enough to warrant the production of something that will stay together or doesn’t look tacky will affect the way we are perceived by others, or how newer kenshi perceive the importance of the philosophy of Shorinji Kempo. Will it in someway create some sort of disposable image of Shorinji Kempo?

paul browne

30th June 2005, 19:11

Gassho,
I look forward to hearing if Tony can come up with answers regarding what the DOIN are doin(g) :), Anders has a good relationship with the Rakuto in Kyoto so he may have some idea as well.
Dave, I wasn't aware of the WSKO rules regarding Doin, however I'm still somewhat puzzled. My membership card distinctly says Chukenshi, which my Tokuhon describes as a Hokai (philosophical grade), Mizuno sensei has always taught us the art as it was meant to be practised, and when in Japan the art has always been presented to us un that manner when at Hombu. Yet now we are given a logo (which is what the organisations badge is....as was the old one and the manji badge used in Japan) to act as Shimpan in place of the Dharma scroll before (We don't rei the manji....it forms a whole with the parts below).
I'm sorry Steve, I've got to side with the others, symbols are important. If you go to a traditional Aikido dojo they will have a picture of Ueshiba (the founder) if it's an offshoot like Yoshinkan you'll have Ueshiba and Shioda.
Goju will have Yamaguchi or Miyagi, Shotokan might have Funokushi etc.
What makes (made) us different is we had an ideal that went beyond Kaiso's person and this was represented by the scroll.
To replace it with our badge, just in big form, makes us closer to Taekwondo where you bow to the badge of whatever brand of the art you practice together with the Korean and whatever your own national flag is.
I have no axe to grand with respect to what is on the scroll except that it must have relevance, and that does not include it's having it's registered trade mark symbol.
Dave, i sincerely hope it isn't some misguided prejudice that governs their attitude to us understanding the philosophy,as the beauty of it is that it isn't rocket science, it's common sense that requires no cultural assimilation (unlike for instance Shinto, which is bound up in what it is to BE Japanese, or other such religious practises). Whilst most of us have embraced aspects of Japan to our hearts through our practise of Kempo that is not essential to the understanding of Kaiso's philosphy (unless they have deep, meaningful special practises they keep hidden from us:))
Kesshu
Paul

David Dunn

30th June 2005, 20:32

Paul,
as I understand it the ranking systems are:

bukai: martial rankings (ikkyu, shodan, nidan etc).
hokai: philosophy rankings (junkenshi, shokenshi, etc).
sokai: 'priestly' ranks (shodoshi, kenchudoshi, etc).

The sokai ranks are followed by doin-cho, whereas only the bukai and hokai are followed by shibu-cho. The philosophy (tetsugaku) for hokai is "shorinji kempo philosophy", whereas Kongo Zen itself is learned by following the sokai syllabus. It's Kongo Zen that we can't teach anymore, not kenzen ichinyo, shushu koju, kyakka shoko and so on.

Confused? I am :confused:

[I believe the existence of shibu as distinct to doin was a response to religious laws in Japan, and the hiring of public property - the latter isn't supposed to have any religious teachings included. Anders might be able to clarify this.]

[edit] p.s. I completely agree with you about it not being so difficult to grasp.

Anders Pettersson

1st July 2005, 04:53

Gassho.

I look forward to hearing if Tony can come up with answers regarding what the DOIN are doin(g) :), Anders has a good relationship with the Rakuto in Kyoto so he may have some idea as well.
I will try and get back to that later, maybe in another thread, when I have more time. :)

I wasn't aware of the WSKO rules regarding Doin,

I think this should read "WSKO branches can only be shibu, not doin, and thus aren't allowed to teach Kongo Zen."
This is a problem and I hope that this question can be raised at the WSKO Council Meeting and WSKO General Meeting later this year.
I can not see why it shouldn't be possible for branches in other countries outside of Japan to also become Doin and give kenshi the possibility to study Kongo Zen and take part in the Sokai ranking system.

There have been a lot of talk lately in Japan about that we now have one Shorinjikempo in the world, because of the new symbol/munasho. However thera are quite a few issues that still need to be changed before we can say that it is one. :/

At a very basic level, I simply cannot understand why something in Kaiso's own calligraphy should be banned from view. What does this imply about his legacy? At the very least, an alternative that more clearly represents our philosophy would be preferable to a corporate logo. Something in Kaiso's own calligraphy would be ideal.
I also have difficulties to understand why the Manji no kakejiku only should be used by Doin (they are still allowed to use it), and not by Shibu. It should be up to each country federation or branch if they will and can use it. (If you have a private place shouldn't be any problem from my point of view.)

I also suspect that many braches will just ignore this rule and continue to use the old kakejiku. http://www.budo.se/forum/images/smilies/up_to_something.gif

Yet now we are given a logo (which is what the organisations badge is....as was the old one and the manji badge used in Japan) to act as Shimpan in place of the Dharma scroll before (We don't rei the manji....it forms a whole with the parts below).
Paul, Shimpan means judge or referee, I suspect that the word you want to use is Shomen. ;)

sokai: 'priestly' ranks (shodoshi, kenchudoshi, etc).
Actually it should be shodoshi, gonchudoshi, chudoshi, gondaidoshi, etc., eleven ranks in total.

As I believe I have pointed out here before the explanation on the BSKF site is misspelled.

[I believe the existence of shibu as distinct to doin was a response to religious laws in Japan, and the hiring of public property - the latter isn't supposed to have any religious teachings included. Anders might be able to clarify this.]
Very short since I don't have the time right now to write anything lengthy.
Doin in Japan belong to the Kongo Zen Sohonzan Shorinji (which is a Shukyo Hojin = religous organisation), Shibu belong to the Zaidan Hojin Shorinjikempo Renmei (Japanese SK Federation), which is were University clubs etc. belong.
This is how it has been more or less since the beginning, but the separation of the two has been more distinct recently (in 2000/2001 if I remember correct) because of reasons David mentions.
In a doin one also reads the Raihaishi during chinkon-gyo (as well as the dokun, which is omitted in the English Tokuhon) but in Shibu they only read Seiku, Seigan, Dokun & Shinjo.

I believe there are some old threads on this as well, a search could help out.

/Anders

paul browne

1st July 2005, 06:33

Gassho,
Anders,
Your right I meant Shomen, You speak at least three languages and I barely function in my own:), I hoped the Kipling qoute might fool people into mistaking me for educated.:)
I still look forward into finding out what the Rakuto think of all this though.
Kesshu
Paul

David Dunn

1st July 2005, 09:49

As I believe I have pointed out here before the explanation on the BSKF site is misspelled.

Anders, that's true. I looked on the BSKF site to remind myself. I tried to link to it, but it opens in a javascript window.
http://www.bskf.org/
follow: news -> features then it's the last article on the page.

I believe there are some old threads on this as well, a search could help out.

I'm afraid to point to old threads since CityShorinji arrived :D

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25572&highlight=shibu+doin

Steve Williams

1st July 2005, 10:16

OK, everyone is on my case....... I know that symbolism and all that it means is very important, and can be a very emotive subject.
What I meant was....
It is the meaning behind the symbol which should come first in our minds.
When we saw the "old" symbol (the Ken not the manji) we were perfectly happy (in the west) to promote that and "revere" it as our "mark" weren't we??
But that was just the word "Fist" albeit in "foreign [Japanese] script".
If we had the "new" mark as our Symbol when you had started training all those months/years/decades (for some of us) ago then we would think no more of it, the fact that it is "new" is the problem......
I too had a problem with it when I first saw it, "what sort of tacky s4!t is this" were some of the words which issued from my mouth...... but when you consider all that hombu and WSKO are trying to achieve [re:worldwide marketing] then you suggest a better viable option...... I would think it is very difficult/impossible...... Find an image which will try to portray what Shorinjikempo means, which will be acceptable to people worldwide, which has no previous use (no previous copywrite) and which people will all accept...... can't (imho) be done....... so WSKO/hombu have come up with a viable/workable option. It will not please everyone, we have the right to complain (as is everyones right) but before you complain too much think about the monumental task that had to be overcome to reach this position.
Think about what you are complaining about and has it any real substence, if you are just moaning because it is different/new/not what I wanted, then take a step back and reconsider your position, then look at it all anew (I have) and you may find you are of a slightly different opinion......

If someone new comes along and asks about the new symbol, then explain what it means: http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/report/65.html (this is a basic overview, your branch master would have been sent a "pack" with lots of information about the new mark, I know I was, some of it bears reading, some of it doesn't, ask your branch master if you can have a read of that pack) it is certainly easier than trying to get around the pre-concieved notions which the manji bring to western minds, and it is more symbolic than "Fist".....
In an ideal situation we could use the manji (swastika, inverted) worldwide, but I seriously don't think that it will ever be a viable option in the west, due to the misuse of it 60+ years ago.

Anders Pettersson

1st July 2005, 10:23

Anders, that's true. I looked on the BSKF site to remind myself. I tried to link to it, but it opens in a javascript window.
http://www.bskf.org/
follow: news -> features then it's the last article on the page.
Here is a direct link to the ranking explanation:
http://www.bskf.org/news/current/010103ranking.html

But note that the "ken" for the names for Sokai rank should be read as "gon".

There is also a short description of the different rank on the Swedish Federation homepage (Technique -> Ranking, or this direct link (http://www.shorinji-kempo.org/tech/tech_ranking_e.html)).
(Will probably make that page more detailed when, if ever :), i get the time)

/Anders

Steve Williams

1st July 2005, 10:25

One further point:

We were sent a letter from hombu/WSKO stating that we should no longer use the kanji for "Shorinjikempo" together with the new mark....... to my thoughts this is wrong, but again try to see the other side, the kanji is often "misread" as "shaolin temple boxing" ("shaolin si chua fan" not sure on the spelling) and hombu want to stop this misrepresentation (rightly or wrongly I am not yet convinced).

BUT they have said that we can display kanji for "ken zen ichi nyo" "riki ai fu ni" "go ju ittai" etc.......
So if you have a chance (and someone japanese who is really good at calligraphy) then display these alongside/above/below the new "mark" at the front of the dojo...... that way you are rei-ing to something that means more to you (maybe) and it also keeps the "philosophical" side of shorinjikempo to the forefront.

David Dunn

1st July 2005, 10:55

Think about what you are complaining about and has it any real substence, if you are just moaning because it is different/new/not what I wanted, then take a step back and reconsider your position, then look at it all anew (I have) and you may find you are of a slightly different opinion......

Good point Steve. I have questioned if it just conservatism in myself. I don't mind the symbol itself, and the double circles do have the same meaning as manji. What's true though, is that the manji scroll makes people think/ask "wow, what does that mean?" The new symbol doesn't I don't think, and neither does the tate-ken.

If wanting Kongo Zen to remain central is conservative, then guilty as charged.

sean dixie

1st July 2005, 13:18

Steve, don't get me wrong the new symbol in it's self I don't really have a problem with. But a quality martial art should be represented with a quality scroll and once again I should point out it's pants! If we can have ken zen ichinyo etc in kanji to the side then why not put that on professionally and give us a quality product that will get new people asking what it means.

CityShorinji

1st July 2005, 14:37

I'll tell you why not. Because the real reason behind the new symbol is to 'brand' SK classes. That's the language that will have been used by Synapse - they are a comms agency after all. The new poster is not about giving us practitioners something we believe in to look at, it's about a stamp of ownership.

Steve Williams

1st July 2005, 19:45

David Dunn

1st July 2005, 22:07

Adrian,
I think Synapse is an artificial intelligence company or something like that. They also develop "eye software" of some kind. Selling dogi is a minor sideline. Anyone who can read their website in Japanese will be able to translate if for us (?).

colin linz

1st July 2005, 22:45

It is all about branding. Not so much as a mark of ownership, but rather a recognisable product. We may not want to describe what we offer as a product, but it is. We have something we are trying to get people to invest some of their lives in. WSKO probably even have research identifying who their customer base is. This is what puzzles me. I don’t have a problem with the new symbol, but this is not the only readily identifiable part of organisational image used. The quality of the scroll will also send messages to those that see it. How will they perceive Shorinji Kempo?

dax

2nd July 2005, 03:25

Do people really judge a martial arts class by the quality of its scroll?

colin linz

2nd July 2005, 05:02

Do people really judge a martial arts class by the quality of its scroll?
I don’t know, but organisations put a lot of effort into developing an identity. Things like logos, colours used buildings, design of buildings, colours, fonts, and formatting of all written material, and the formatting and design of presentations. I guess they do this because they have found it makes a difference in the way people perceive their organisation.

Most people in Australia have not heard of Shorinji Kempo, even those that are martial artists. When they come to a class to see what it is, they will make some sort of judgment. This judgment will mostly be based on what they see; only a small part will be based on what you say. If you have a small class of junior kenshi, and therefore training is at a junior level people don’t get a good idea of what Shorinji Kempo is. In this situation everything that puts a positive impression forward will be an advantage. Something that looks cheap and tacky could adversely effect their impression. For examples of this you only need to see how people form a lasting judgment on someone they have only just met, based on how that person is dressed, looks, or speaks. Will a cheap and tacky tie spoil your chance of getting a job that you are being interviewed for? Hopefully they will see past this to the true you, but wouldn’t you prefer not to make things more difficult than they already are?

sean dixie

2nd July 2005, 18:40

Ok, having now trained with the bloody thing at the front of the class I will admit that from a DISTANCE it's ok. The problem I guess is that we are used to better, we ARE backsliding in quality. The original Manji was a quality product (and it had Kaisos' calligraphy....) It had a weight and substance AND a meaning.

Am I turning into an old fogey, not wanting change? Probably. But it's not so much change that bothers me, it's regresive change that annoys.

KempoCat

2nd July 2005, 19:05

Am I turning into an old fogey, not wanting change? Probably. But it's not so much change that bothers me, it's regresive change that annoys.

i didn't really want to be the first to tell you that sean... but yes... hahaha :p :)

David Dunn

3rd July 2005, 09:59

Just got an email from Cailey Sensei:

Gassho.

As most of you are already aware, the new banners have arrived to replace the manji kakejiku. There has been one ordered for each club, so if you or a club representative can please collect them from Jeremy Peakin at the Summer Seminar.

Please note that, in accordance with the new WSKO rules, we are no longer allowed to hang the old manji kakejiku. The new one replaces it, but is optional and instructors may choose whether to use it or not.

CityShorinji

4th July 2005, 16:25

Has there been a decision on whether we are going to perform Gassho Rei to the new scroll as we did to the kakejiku? I'm not keen on the idea at all - I think saluting a trademark is exactly what we should NOT be encouraging people to do.

If I choose not to use the new scroll (and you can probably guess my choice in advance), what do I do if I go to another dojo or a seminar? Am I going to have to salute the corporate badge there or do I have an opt-out?

David Dunn

4th July 2005, 17:03

I haven't had a manji kakejiku at UWE yet, due to unavailability. I still do shomen ni rei, because I think it's an important part of practice. I'm thinking of getting a picture of Kaiso and putting it at shomen (Sensei Pete does that in his dojo).

John Ryan

4th July 2005, 23:50

The natural progression for this seems to be for each branch to design its own manji kakejiku replacement... Maybe there could be a competition, and prize-giving, and even a report for the WSKO website! OK, so I'm being silly... but there does seem to be some desire out there to reinstate the calligraphy and philosophy, to keep our martial art spiritual and not commercial. Perhaps each dojo having a different scroll at shomen isn't such a bad idea... Better find a picture of Kaiso without a manji though.

KempoCat

5th July 2005, 00:10

but, i thought one of the reasons for this change was the unification across the board... so that every dojo you went to had the same badges, the same scrolls... etc....

John Ryan

5th July 2005, 00:18

but, i thought one of the reasons for this change was the unification across the board... so that every dojo you went to had the same badges, the same scrolls... etc....
That's what I thought too... so then why make the new scroll optional? The whole thing is leaking credibility fast...

colin linz

5th July 2005, 06:34

If this has created some strong opinions here, I have to wonder how the more conservative old time Japanese kenshi feel about this.

CityShorinji

5th July 2005, 11:14

Gassho Rei to a picture of Kaiso????? Oh my God that's just as scary. Just as bad as saluting a corporate badge. I can just hear it now......Ich schwoere Dir, Doshin So, gehoersam bis in den Tod!!!!!

Scary, scary stuff.

David Dunn

5th July 2005, 11:35

Adrian, now you're being silly. Aikido dojos have a picture of Ueshiba Morihei at shomen and no one suggests any problem with that. I wouldn't be surprised if many Japanese shorinji dojos had a picture of Kaiso - there's statues of him in hombu.

[edit] Anyway, when making gassho rei to shomen, including when entering the dojo, it is a mark of respect to the iemoto (the hierarchy). You don't actually salute a wall or a piece of paper, which after all couldn't care less what you thought of it.

CityShorinji

5th July 2005, 13:12

Far from it Dave. I have always been very uncomfortable with the the whole 'cult of personality' thing, never more so than when shuffling past Kaiso's glasses in a great hushed and obedient line at Hombu. As far as I am concerned Doshin So was just another bloke. Of course he had some good ideas but then so did Martin Luther King, Karl Marx and Gandhi. I don't salute pictures to them - and they don't have a twenty year 'black hole' in their past during which they were engaged in 'an unusual line of work' (as it is described in the new Tokuhon). It's the ideas that I pay reverence to, they are bigger than Kaiso. So performing gassho rei to the manji is quite a different proposition to reiing his pic or some trademark.

Very, very, very strange.

paul browne

5th July 2005, 14:18

Gassho,
Dave/ Adrian,
I'm at a sort of halfway house here in that I kinda agree with both arguments but don't feel strongly about either (must be the civil servant in me again, Adrian :))
I don't think having the founders picture at the head of the dojo carries the same connotation in Japan that it does here, as you say Dave the founder of each art or ryu within that art normally has his picture at the front of the Dojo, and students normally rei to it. This is also common to very old ryu where the pictures might be drawings or even little statue representations. It is also common in some Chinese arts, certainly a lot of Tai Chi and Wing Chun Kwoon have pictures of the various Yang family members or Yip Man. So I don't have any strong moral objection to rei-ing a picture of Kaiso and don't consider it to be a sort of psuedo Maoist cult worship.
However like Adrian I have always felt that in some way our dojo etiquette went beyond mere dojo formality and this was represented by the fact that we saluted the ideal behind Kaiso's teachings rather than simply 'acknowledging the founder'.
After all karate has its own philosophical 'dojokun' (I think there are 12 but i may be wrong) and Uyeshiba had a philosophical background to founding Aikido. Even Judo's founder Jigoro Kano created judo for social/educational/philosophical reasons (he was writing about Jita Kyoraku (excuse spelling) in the 1890's). But only we place direct emphasis on understanding the philosophy and trying to take it out of the dojo.
In short I'd rather rei a picture than a logo, but would prefer still something more relevant to practice...a significant caligraphy ("the answer lies with man" would be a good one). Incidently why is it neccesary for the scroll at the dojo front (shomen not shimpan....I'm learning:)) to be copyright?, I can understand it for a badge but not an.....Ikon (wrong word but can't think of a better one)
Kesshu
Paul

David Dunn

5th July 2005, 14:36

Adrian, the 'twenty year hole' can be partially filled in by reading Suzuki's biography of Doshin So, which was published in the late 70s, perhaps early 80s in a Japanese encyclopaedia of budo. It was translated (abridged I think) in Gassho. There has been a tendency to hagiographise (is that a word?) Doshin So. The Doshin So that is thus venerated is not the Doshin So that was the real man. I suspect Doshin So himself would not have been happy about it himself.

Paul, I'm not sure about the copyright issue. WSKO wanted Shorinji Kenshi to wear the same badge globally; obviously the manji as it is on a dogi presents problems in some countries. In Germany it's actually illegal. Imagine that - the state can actually proscribe a symbol. Moreover, in Japan one can't trademark/copyright a kanji such as manji or ken. I haven't got a satisfactory explanation why we can't hang the manji scroll anymore. It came as a dictat, along with no longer being allowed nyumon shiki (opening ceremony), osame shiki (closing ceremony), wearing beads, reading hannya shingyo etc. All the kind of things that Mizuno Sensei does. I guess it's "no Kongo Zen outside doin" rather than a copyright issue (for manji kakejiku at least).

CityShorinji

5th July 2005, 15:32

Anyone out there know more details on where I can get hold of said Doshin So biography?

David Dunn

5th July 2005, 15:50

Er, Adrian, I have it :) I can send you a copy of it. It's called The Path Walked, and was serialised in the English language Gassho c. 1982. Like I say, I think it's abridged. Email me with an snailmail address for it.

sean dixie

5th July 2005, 20:43

Far from it Dave. I have always been very uncomfortable with the the whole 'cult of personality' thing, never more so than when shuffling past Kaiso's glasses in a great hushed and obedient line at Hombu. Very, very, very strange.

Funny how this has never come up before - I also found it a bloody strange thing, a mausaliam to Doshin So. Specs, beads, pen, toe-nail clippings.... it seems so anti....oh I don't know, just doesn't sit well is all.

tony leith

5th July 2005, 21:20

Hmm. I don't know - I have to say I wasn't unduly peturbed by the Kaiso museum at Hombu. I don't remember 'shuffling past it in an obedient line' - there were a bunch of giggling Japanese female students in there when I toured it. Even found it mildly entertaining speculating how his favourite cane acquired all the interesting contours and bumps ('biff' kerpow'). I will admit to having made gassho rei at his actual memorial, but it felt natural at the time.

I also don't have the impression from what I've read of the Kyohan that Kaiso was all that reticent about his career in China - he differentiates between what he saw as the original 'idealistic' purpose of the Japanese presence on mainland China and (again) his view of its subsequent perversion into capitalistic imperial exploitation. This might well be an arguable view of the history of the period, but he pretty much lays it on the line. BTW, although the Japanese perpetrated some appalling atrocities in Asia, bear in mind that the reason we objected to their activities was because they challenged our own imperial interests not out of disnterested humanitarian concern (and to any Americans who claim they didn't have any, I say bollocks to that - the Phillipines were a colony in all but name).

I would agree that the man's ideas are ultimately his important legacy, but I do actually think remembering the man himself is important, precisely as an antidote to the kind of hagiographical nonsense which tends to grow up around charismatic figures. Again, this is why I'm in favour of as much information as possible - in terms of his writings especially - being available to kenshi worldwide. Yes, he was of his time, and so were his ideas, but better understanding of that historical context is all to the good.

Despite my reservations about som of the current drift of Hombu policy, I'm actually not all that freaked either about reing the new 'corporate logo'. Symbols pretty much have the significance you impute to them. If you view the linked rings as pretty much equivalent in meaning to the manji, then you might well have a valid aesthetic objection to them, but not I think much of a philosophical one.

Tony Leith

Ade

5th July 2005, 23:24

Funny how this has never come up before - I also found it a bloody strange thing, a mausaliam to Doshin So. Specs, beads, pen, toe-nail clippings.... it seems so anti....oh I don't know, just doesn't sit well is all.

You should have been there when the Southampton University monkeys (and bolt on attachments) got left alone for 2 minutes in there, and tried to open the display cases, take souvenirs and mimicked the postures of various statues....far more healthy, (and probably far more in line with So Doshin's feelings on individualism rather than deification.)

The scroll's a poor replacement for the "manji" scroll.

The majority of us think so.

The corporate logo is difficult to sell to any of us as credible, but if you wait ten years it will only be the old farts that harp about the old days because everyone else will have started practicing "quitting" after various eloquent arguements by massive intellects furiously onanising.

I know one dojo that wont be hanging it, but I'm not telling you where it is.

On a different note have I brought the tone of this conversation down at all.......anybody?

Ade

PS See you on Sunday at the one day event in London.

colin linz

6th July 2005, 01:33

I have never felt uncomfortable while viewing Kaiso’s museum at Hombu. I don’t know that it would be something he would agree with though. I think he would be happier if people just put into action his teachings. I also think his museum is a natural by product of the mark he was able to leave on those he taught and the impact he made on their lives.

I don’t really have a problem with performing gassho rei to a picture, or the new corporate identifying mark. My main concern is that what ever we use to represent the values and aspirations of Shorinji Kempo reflect the quality and effort put into other aspects of our art. This was one of the things that first struck me when I started training. Everything WSKO did was of good quality and with a professional level of outcome. Nothing was just slapped together. They put a great deal of effort into planing and staging events, conducting training courses to improve coaching techniques, developing educational material, developing the skills of their branch masters, and adopting new technology to gain a better understanding of how techniques worked. They are always trying to improve what they do. This attitude of always trying to do your best and improve is a central message of Shorinji Kempo. While I haven’t seen the new scroll, it seems that the quality of the scroll doesn’t reflect this message.