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hakutsuru
21st November 2000, 06:28
Does anyone know of any Matsubayashi-ryu practitioners in North or South Carolina. I was a student of Matsubayashi-ryu back in New York but I moved to the Charlotte, NC area several years ago. I would love to connect with fellow Matsubayashi-ryu folks down here in Dixie.

Thanks

Tommy Lane

Joseph Svinth
21st November 2000, 08:35
Have you checked the links here?

http://www.matsubayashi-ryu.com

Doug Daulton
21st November 2000, 18:13
Tommy,

I am a Matsubayashi-ryu guy ... not in the NC area though. However, I will do some asking around and let you know. It seems to me that there are some folks down that way, but the names elude me at the moment.

More to come ...

hakutsuru
22nd November 2000, 03:32
Thanks Guys,

I already checked the WMKA site. I was hoping there might be some ronin hiding out down here.

Tommy

Ken Allgeier
27th November 2000, 01:30
Doug,


I allways wondered why in , Matsubayashi Ryu they do not train with the kata "Seisan",considering it is one of the oldest of the classical kata?



Thank You,


ken allgeier

Doug Daulton
27th November 2000, 06:58
Originally posted by Ken Allgeier
I allways wondered why in , Matsubayashi Ryu they do not train with the kata "Seisan",considering it is one of the oldest of the classical kata?

Ken,

That is a very good question. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Seisan, like Sanchin, involve dynamic breathing and isometric tension? If so, that answers the question.

Nagamine Sensei thought it was important that people learn to work within the body's natural movements & rythyms ... dynamic breathing & isometric tension exaggerate natural movements and as a result emphasize unnatural movement. At least that is the theory.

That said, I've always found Sanchin and Seisan interesting. For a long time, I felt Sanchin built a power "base" which I thought missing in Matsubayashi-ryu. However, I am starting to believe that our Naihanchi kata fill that gap.

I hope that helps. Any other thoughts?

Sochin
27th November 2000, 17:11
Our Shorin-ji "version" of Seisan (ie, how we train it) uses ordinary breathing with karate focus, not the tension breathing. But we do use tension breathing in Hangetsu which is a Shorin version of Seisan...interesting no?

Ken Allgeier
27th November 2000, 17:29
Hangetsu is in fact G.Funakoshi version or variation of Shuri-Te 'Seisan',which means "13",while 'Hangetsu' means half-moon.The first three waza of the Shotokan Hangetsu uses a Sanchin type breathing in the mid-level blocking( uchi-ude-uke)and punching and Hangetsu-dachi.I would guess that G.Funakoshi may have wished to incorporate some waza he may have learned from his friend Chojun Miyagi,this is just my assumtion.






ken allgeier

Doug Daulton
27th November 2000, 19:29
Hmmmm ... I recall that one of our fighting kata is a variation of Hangetsu which, if there is a connection to Seisan, would indeed be interesting.

Let me do some digging before I comment further. I am away from my research notes until early next week. I'll let you know what I dig up when I get home.

hakutsuru
28th November 2000, 06:04
This is involving into an interesting thread. I myself do three different versions of Seisan. The first is the Goju-Ryu version. The second is the Uechi-Ryu versian which is done open handed. The third is the version taught in Matsumura Shorin-Ryu. This version is almost identical to the Shorinji-Ryu version. I practice this versian with dynamic tension but not in the same way as the Goju version. The breathing is natural the kata is done at normal speed. I've seen similar versions done both with the tension and without. This is just the way I do it. Funny, I happened to working on Seison this evening.

As to the question of why Matsubayasi-Ryu dosen't do Seisan, I can think of two possibilities. First Shoshin Nagamine, the styles founder, may not have known the kata. Second, He may have known the kata but felt that it would be better not to include it in his syllibus.

There are some similarities betwen the Shorinji Seisan and Ananku. Some of the sequences in Seisan are found In Ananku. Mastubayashi does Ananku (although it is a version that seems unique to that style). Anyone have any thoughts?

Matsubayashi-Ryu is chock full of kata. I think I will start some threads on the history of kata on the Matsubayashi website's discussion forum. Maybe some of the senior Matsubayashi yudansha will have some good information

Tommy Lane

kusanku
29th November 2000, 05:34
Doug is correct. Nagamine sensei felt that tension was unnatural and interrpupted the body's natural movements.

In Matsubayashi ryu , the body's movements are extremely simple and natural, though I can't really do those knee drops any more:-).

The kata fulfilling the power base function , is indeed the naihanchi series, and the Fukyu Gata Ni has the seisan self defense movements, without the tension.

Whether Nagmine sensei's heory wasin fact correct, Ido't know, I also do the Okinawan Kenpo saeisan, wich is called Tomari seisan, and is done with a smooth tension and breathing through the nose except on kiai,kind of in between shuri and Naha breathing.

Regards,

hakutsuru
1st December 2000, 05:20
I whole-heartedly agree that Naihanchi build power. In fact, I think they are among the most difficult kata to perform.

I'm not sure I see any of the Sesan application within Fukyugata Ni. I find the idea intriguing. Could you explain it further?

Thanks,

Tommy Lane

kusanku
1st December 2000, 09:01
hakutsur says:'I'm not sure f I see the sesan application in fukyu gata ni. Could you explain it further?'

Well, Tomari seisan, of Okinawan Kenpo, uses a doble punch almost identical to the two doubles that fish off fukyu gata ni, also uses a ot of middle block/backfist strikes ad sdoes fukyu gata ni, and in gneral, has a similar feel to it, though in Fukyu gata, at a more basic level.

Of course there are also differences, there, too.

I wonder if the fighting kata Doug referred to with some appications from seisan is Ananku, featuring a front stance, and possibly created or introduced by, Chotoku Kyan?

Or if Doug is in Ansei Ueshiro's lineage, if he meant the fukyu gata san created by Ueshiro sensei?

Anyway, yes, the naihanchi are easy to learn but fairly hard to co correctly and well.

The Naihanchi taught in Matsubayashi ryu from the Uku Giko lineage,are very much more complex than most other styles' versions,except for the advanced timing kenpo versions, intricate footwork and handwork combined with the sideward lunging movements designed, to train the legs and hips with the upper body, as well as to inculcate fundamental close combat goshinjutsu maneuvers.

Reagrds,

hakutsuru
3rd December 2000, 05:19
I have Tomari Seisan on tape somewhere. If I can ever find among my stacks of MA videos :rolleyes:. I could probable get a better idea if I saw the kata.

I never knew the lineage of the Naihanchi kata practiced in Matsubayashi-ryu. Could you elaborate.

Also, does anyone know where the shortened version of Gojoshiho as done in Matsubayashi comes from and whether or not there was a longer version at some point.

Thanks,

Tommy Lane

Doug Daulton
6th December 2000, 00:17
Originally posted by kusanku ... I wonder if the fighting kata Doug referred to with some appications from seisan is Ananku, featuring a front stance, and possibly created or introduced by, Chotoku Kyan?

Or if Doug is in Ansei Ueshiro's lineage, if he meant the fukyu gata san created by Ueshiro sensei?

I checked my notes. Ananku was the kata to which I was referring. I must admit that my knowledge of Hangetsu is poor so I cannot comment any further than this.

Speaking of Fukyukata-san ... I am of the Nagamine Shoshin/Nagamine Takayoshi line by way of Frank Grant and Bill George respectively. I do have some friends who are of the Ueshiro Ansei line ... and I've never asked them about Fukyukata-san. I'll have to do that. I'd like to see it. Thanks for jogging my memory.

kusanku
7th December 2000, 22:06
Hi, Doug. Sensei Grant helped me a great deal and one of his students and Wax sensei's, taught me matsubayashi ryu.

Good to meet you.

Someone asked, here, what id=]s the lineage of the Matsuayashi ryu Nahanchi.Uku Giko taught them to Oyadomari who taught them to one of his students who taught them to Nagamine Shoshin.he gives it in his book on Okinawan Karate masters, these naihanchi predate the Itosu adaptations which are simpler and more oriented towards,straight sideways movement, the matsubayash rryu Naihanchi have a richer and subtler flavor reminiscent of the Chinese arts.But are definitely power excercises.

Fukyu gata san is on the net somewhare on Scaglione Sesnsei's website but I don't have the url right here, right now.It has Ueshiro Sesnsei performing it and features the zenkutsu dachi as does Ananku.

Matsubayashi ryu Gojushiho isn't that short, and it is suppoded to be after the rendition of Iju, whoever that was.It is very much a Chinese form, and I believe the Matsubayashi ryu version of Gojushiho is the 'sho' version.It is also supoosed to contain the entire art of gotente, or palace hand, and be a Chinese Drunken style form, to boot. I am told by Shaolin practitioners from Malaysia that it is a shaolin form, definitely.It is referred toby name in the Bubishi as the Fifty Fou Steps of the Black Tiger, to further confuse matters, and in the back f the Bubishi, pictures of techniques recognizable as from Matsubayashi ryu Gojushiho, out of order but there they are, exist.

Whee!

The Dai version is done by some Okinawan Kenpo, and seibukan shorinryu people, among others. In Shotokan the sho and dai are reversed, as one nationally televised tournament, the big gun performing the kata hollered gojushiho Sho! When he was doing dai, or vice versa, so to save face, the JKA changed the naming of tha kata, screwing up generations of karate ka ever after.:-)

Doug Daulton
12th December 2000, 00:19
John,

Which of Grant Sensei's students taught you Matsubayashi-ryu?

BTW, he is in Southeastern Kentucky now if you did not know. If you'd like to get in touch with him, please email me.

______________
Doug Daulton

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 12-11-2000 at 06:28 PM]

kusanku
14th December 2000, 23:10
Doug'Which of Grant Sensei's student's taught you Matsubayashi Ryu?

Mr. Richard Burch of Piqua, Ohio.He and another Yudansha had a club also in Troy called the kata Athletic Club, but I learned from Mr. Burch privately at the YMCA in Piqua, where we trained about every day for a steady period , about 1972-1973, used to work out eight hours a day and three with Mr.Burch.

Also used to go to Sensei Grant's dojo and watch classes, and talk with sensei, who was very helpful to me , and with some of his yudansha and senior students.

They were all very helpful to me.

Some of his stdents and I would also work out, who lived near where I did. and we would compare notes.

Mr. Burch was a student first, of Mr. James Wax, and then of Frank Grant.

While I will never forget Frank grant, he probably would not remember my name, although, he was surprisig about what exactly he did remember sometimes.:-)

His standard question to me, as I was an informal student of one of his sudents, was, 'You ready to join, yet? with a big smile."

I never got to formally, but I did get to train a lot with his students.

An amazing bunch, including hthe Doshikai, informally known as Grant's Guerilla's or am I talking out of school here?;

Dayton and Piqua were both rough towns, and measures sometimes needed to be taken.I used to help mr. Burch 'bounce'gangs and other undesirables at the Piqua Y, and when there was trouble the director, Smitty, would come to the All Purpose room where we were training, every day, kata and kihon, and goshinjutsu and ask us to come down and help the situation out a bit.

We made a good team, and usually we never had to actually do anything physically.Our reputations preceded us.

Those were some interesting days indeed, and I never forgot what I was taught, part of my training was to perform the kata wankan, during an eight month period, over three thousand times.We'd throw car keys on the floor and start with them between the yoi, and end up there everytine or know why.:-)We'd break the kata down and put it together again, and use the other Shorin ryu kata to study and master Wankan.

As I was taught informally, I have no rank in Matsubayashi ryu.

The foundation drills, the basics, all the basics, hours and hours and hours of basics, every possible way of doing basics, and then kata, ten to fifteen to thirty reps, sometimes fifty , or more, of kata, each time, and self defense, and combination techniques, and what bunkai, and one shot strikes, and so on and so forth, and insight into strategy from a man who had been in many confrontations with people armed and unarmed, and knife defense, and so much more, conditioning drills, you name it we did it.

Sensei Grant was amazing, in demonstration or in things he would do in casual conversation, man moved like lightning but with perfect control, never hurt anyone but you'd have to stand there blinking for a second before you realized you hadn't actually been hit.:-)

A true martial artist, a gentleman, and an amazing human being.
I heard he was in Kentucky, I'm in Southwestern Indiana myself.


Thanks, Doug
Regards,

[Edited by kusanku on 12-14-2000 at 05:25 PM]

waza22
13th April 2001, 07:09
Gentlemen,

Great Subject!

My two yen worth, if you would allow me.

I am a practioner of Matsumura Seito and we study Seisan kata of the Shorin-Ji lineage. The breathing is quite natural and has very little relevance to the version of Ananku kata that is in our syllabus. I would love to see some of the different versions of these kata as performed by other Okinawan stylist.

In the context of our sylabus we have borrowed several kata from Shorin-Ji-Ryu, Wansu, Seisan and Ananku.

As to the "shortened" version of Gojushiho, I know of only one version. Could you please elaborate on this subject or direct me to a tape etc.... so I could see it?
I would find it most fascinating.

Regards,
William D. Gray

Doug Daulton
13th April 2001, 17:55
Originally posted by Jim Kass

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=5445&pagenumber=1

So, my question is.... Do you, who study Matsubayashi Ryu, feel your system is now only "sport karate" and only tournament techniques as presented as FACT by Mr SEER? Mr. Kass,

The quick answer is ... No (and Yes).

The core of Matsubayashi-ryu is NOT tournament-oriented. Anyone whose spent time researching the art or studying its founder knows that Nagamine O'Sensei thought tournaments were ridiculous wastes of time and frowned on the practice of jiyu-kumite.

Those who trained in his dojo in the 60s and 70s say it was jiyu-kumite was never part of his curriculum. This has been confirmed time and time again by other visitors. And during my 1999 visit, jiyu-kumite was not practiced either.


As for the "Yes" in my answer, like all budo that gets transplanted abroad, groups splinter off and do their own thing while retaining the name of the original art. Unfortunately, this has happened with Matsubayashi-ryu. Some folks are heavy in the tournament circuits. This is probably where the Mr. Seer got the idea.

However, as a student of Frank Grant (Nagamine Shoshin's oldest American student) and Bill George (Nagamine Takayoshi's oldest American Student) .... I can tell you that at it's core, Matsubayashi-ryu is not tournament-oriented.

As for Mr. Seer's comments regarding "school-boy karate", I think this is an interesting observation and one I've heard myself. However, I'll reserve comment until I've had some time to sort out my recollections correctly.

Regards to all,

kusanku
15th April 2001, 03:25
Doug Daulton says:'Matsubayashi ryu is not sport oriented.'

It is certainly Not.

I studied in the seventies and never, ever did we do jiyu kumite, never in Sensei Grant's dojo either, did I ever witness same.

Nor did I hear of Takayoshi Sensei teaching it when he was in Cincinnati or Dayton.

As for school boy karate, the two fukyu gata ichi and ni, were created by Nagamine Shoshin and Miyagi Chojun respectively,to teach karate to elementary school children.

The five Pinan were indeed created by Itosu Anko to teach middle school children, as it was found that the naihanchi one-three kata, were too dfficult to learn at that age,for most.Bear also in mind that Itosu altered the naihanchi to make them simpler, but his alterations are not done in Matsubayashi ryu,rather the naihanchi done there are of an earlier lineage and are indeed complex kata.

Note that Matsubayashi ryu kata begin with fukyu one and two, go to Pinan one-five.

Yes, these kata were designed to teach karate to elementary and middle school children respectively, and as such they are very valuable for those of us whose aptitude was not of the 'natural' variety.It should in this connection be noted that many Okinawan styles also practive the fukyu and pinan katas, and many others do not, but those not doing so usually have as replacement a series of excercises or kihon, taken from seisan or other katas, because it really is Not easy to begin learning karate with kata alone, especially if the kata are ones Not designed for schoolchildren.

But the Matsubayashi ryu kata syllabus doesn't stop with kiddie kata:-).And even those kata provide a strong foundation for the rest.In Matsubayashiryu there is a logical progression of kata.

Not only does it go on to Naihanchi, but after that, includes in order, Ananku, Wankan, Rohai, Wanshu, Passai,Gojushiho, Chinto and Kusanku.That's eight classical kata after the three naihanchi, for a total of eighteen.

That's Yara Kusanku, same one done by Matsumura Orthodox.

There are connections between the systems of Matsubayashi ryu and Matsumura Orthodox, not known by many.

Calling one sport oriented and schoolboy karate, and the other real karate, shows ignorance on the part of whoever said that.

Master Nagamine's Karate is of a very high level. even in the basic kata a type of movement and precision and natural almost effortless power, which takes time to train and develop, is generated along with a blinding speed,not seen except in other similar systems, one of which is Matsumura Seito.

Free sparring was indeed done by some practitioners and dojo, and the names of Bob Yarnall, Jim Harrison, and Parker Shelton among others, are known as national champions f the time.

But as far as what the dojo and practitioners of which I was a part or associated did, no jiyu kumite.

calisthenics, foundation excercises,( those aren't for fun, either),standing and moving basics, self defense, and kata, kata, kata, and bunkai kata,precision and makiwara and bag training, and two person drills,and did I mention kata?:-)

Some ask the question of, how can you do self defense without free sparring?

Matsubayashi ryu people know the answer: train, train and train some more, until your stuff is like perfect lightning.

Then when the attackers attack, they go down in a second.

You have power or atemi from training foundation, basics, makiwara, and so on, and precision from doing thousands of repetitions, technique from kata and bunkai, nasty stuff from self defense too, and control, in all senses of the word, from the two person drills or prearranged kumite and bunkai kata.

Frank Grant used tosay, 'It's like a ball of lead on a string", referring to the punches and strikes of the system.

Used to say to students, 'You don't have to knock down the barn with your punch,just hit 'em where it hurts."

Arms and legs have hinge joints, and are like hammers.When a skilled person uses a hammer, the only muscle they use is to impart momentum to the hammer, the hammer does the damage.

Tense up too much, you may miss the nail or not drive it in straight, or all the way.

Let the hammer do the work, arm or leg in this case, and you hit the nail right smack on the head, straight in, and sink it with one blow.

Sport oriented? Not hardly, but it can be used in sport all right.Self defense too,as one tends to move very fast in a bewildering manner and strike hard fast and often:-) where it hurts.Think four claw hammers.

School kid karate?Learn a lot in school.Learn how to use a hammer right, maybe.

The derogatory tone evinced in the post of Mr. Seer brought to our attention by Mr. Kass,
is unfortunately typical of some of the posts on here of late, written by people who obviously have had a sad and lonely life.:-)

But it is definitely the work of someone almost totally ignorant of Okinawan Shorin ryu karate.

And of all the arts I have studied in thirty six years, Shorin ryu is one of the four most effective training systems I have ever seen, and second to none.

Yes, one of the others is Okinawan Kenpo, a Shorin ryu system itself.

A third is Judo, and a fourth is Shaolin Chin Na,in its many variants.

But the interesting thing is that Matsubayashiryu lends itself well as a delivery system for the techniques of the last two, and the theory of application of the second.

Not that it needs it.Basic level application of Matsubayashi ryu technique is simple and powerfully effective.So much so, that many do not believe it when they experience it.Right through armor that shock goes!:-)

The function is contained in the form and the foundation training.

There may be a reason why Shorin ryu is the most popular and widely practiced style of karate, in its various schools, on Okinawa.

I have been extremely happy with matsubayashi ryu in the twenty-nine years I have been training in it and regardless of other systems I have practiced, I must say this: when the chips were down in the streets of the Town,it was matsubayashi ryu that came to the rescue, insofar as physical technique was concerned- and it never let me down.

And in for instances I can recall, the opponent was stopped from the attack with one movement.

In every case done effortlessly and precisely.Contrary to many modern mavens saying the adrenalin makes the movements unreliable, I found that the training held .Frank Grant used to say it this way:'Trust your training,it's good, trust your body-it knows what to do."

Two of the instances, I defended myself while still seated.

Other two, it only took a sudden turn and step to defeat the intentions of the attacker.

Funny thing: all four times the movements were right out of the Matsubayashi ryu kata.Exactly.

That's my testimony for Matsubayashi Ryu.It works for me and it may for you.

Jari Virta
19th April 2001, 16:48
At least the Sukunaihayashi Seisan does not use forced breathing.

hakutsuru
19th April 2001, 19:52
I doubt that too. I just offered it as a possiblity.

Tom Lane

Doug Daulton
19th April 2001, 20:13
Originally posted by Jari Virta I don't think that could be the case, since Nagamine's teacher Chotoku Kyan was quite fond of kata Seisan and it would be weird if Nagamine had not learned it from him.Interesting question.

Of course, no one knows the answer for sure, except perhaps Nagamine Takayoshi, the founder's son.

That said, I am told that "old-school" karate or ti' was not taught at all like modern karate is taught. First, kata often were not taught in a particular order. Teachers would often give a student a kata which he felt best suited the student's strengths ... or conversely was best suited to shoring up the student's weaknesses.

So perhaps, Nagamine Sensei was never exposed to Seisan for one of these reasons.

Regards

Doug Daulton
19th April 2001, 20:18
OK .. back to the question of "school-boy" karate ...

Today, most ryuha have structured curricula. I am beginning to think that this is, to some degree, a great weakness in modern karate. At some level, I suspect that this is what older teachers mean when they refer to some modern ryuha as "school-boy" karate.

In elementary and middle school, everyone does the same thing and has the same expectations. There is little room for deviation from the norm or self-expression. Many modern ryuha seem to adopt this approach with zeal and have hard and fast rules for every little detail. This is discipline for discipline's sake. It is required, because everyone is required to attend elementary and middle school.

In college (and high school to a lesser degree), students are much more in control of their learning direction. Teachers have more latitude to adjust the teaching methods and expectations to serve the best interests of the students. Not everyone attends college, so homogeny is not the mark of teacher/ student success ... unique, independent and demonstrable skill is. External discipline is not generally required as self-discipline is the expectation.

IMO, this is the difference between "school-boy" karate and ti'. With this definition, I would say that many of "dojo" in the US are practicing "school-boy" karate. The school may be filled with tough-as-nails heartbreakers, but the approach is still elementary.

This type of power will only last as long as the body is still young. Eventually, when age and injury slow down the body, these skills will diminish rapidly. If one has genuine waza, not school-boy waza ... technique beats youthful strength and vigor 99% of the time.

Don't believe me? Watch Nishikoa Tsuneo Sensei of Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo take the role of uke in a jo kata. Or, watch closely as Onaga Yoshimitsu, student of Higa Yuchoku, does his kata or hits the machiwara.

"Old men" are survivors. They know more than us young pups. We'd do well to listen to and learn from them ... that is unless we want to do "school-boy" budo when we are 60.

Regards to all,

Jussi Häkkinen
8th May 2001, 14:12
Well...I could take a long route or short route.

Kyan did not teach Seisan to Nagamine. Reason: Nagamine had the basics learned via Pinan-kata before studying under Kyan. (No, I don't say here that Seisan is a simple kata. It just emphasizes "basic karate" skills - blocking, striking - and builds the foundation for all karate in those styles it is in). Kyan could start teaching other kata to Nagamine because of that.

Pinans, when trained with passion and devoteism, build same "base" as Seisan. Actually, in many Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu syles Pinans do the work of seisan as rootbuilders. That is the way Nagamine learned them. Kyan just thought that Nagamine would benefit more from other kata than Seisan.

Nagamine's Ananku is - quite possibly - his own creation. No other student of Kyan has that Ananku-version in their curriculum. I believe that Nagamine named his kata to respect his teacher.

Well, I chose the short route.

28th August 2001, 01:35
Shorinichi
Member

First off, let me say that being a practitioner of Shorin (3 styles) for many years led me to some of my opinions. I have nothing against Matsubayashi-Ryu or any other Shorin Ryuha, but have observed some perplexing trends recently. That being said the truth is different for everyone...

An afterthought...
Mr. Kass: I tried to find your email address, but was unsuccessful. I just thought that I'd clarify a couple of things with you regarding a post on Matsubayashi you replied to a few months back. I apologize to the other posters and please forgive me for getting offtrack. James, you copied and pasted a reply I had made in a reference to Matsubayashi-Ryu. This was your interpretation and reply to my words: "He has finally found the "system" traveling 2 hours to get to his new Sensei's dojo (Ron Lindsey, hehehe), 2 times a month ..WOW! and it only took him 12 years to find the place.....(but, he never left Texas..Maybe the 12 years he was looking for a system is included with his 20 years of MA experience....Dah, he really does need to stay on his medications)!". First off when I say twice a month I'm talking all-day training sometimes up to 8 hrs.. Secondly, what the fizuck is this "Ron Lindsey (heheheh)" b.s.? Maybe you'd like to exchange knowledge and techs with him. I mean you're obviously confident in your abilities and knowledge. Have you trained with him, talked with him, know of him, other than through innuendo? Maybe you know that he's the source of Dillman's "knowledge" (who he says only corresponded with him briefly, before formulating his "p.p." junk). Do you know me and what I've seen and done as far as the M.A.s are concerned? Just because I didn't train at a formal dojo at all times in my 20 yrs. of experience doesn't mean that I didn't train alone or with others. My Shorin training in the REAL Kobayashi (Shorinkan) was enough. Living and growing up in the PI I got to test it on numerous occassions in the ring and on the street, and often sparred and waxed Shidokan folks. I never lost against them. They're style of Kobayashi had become "sportified" and ineffective. PERIOD. The same when I trained Matsubayashi...What a joke! I have trained in traditional karate (Matsubayashi-Ryu) and GJJ at the same time. I can also walk and chew gum at the same time!

You are definitely a master of assumption like a large majority of the populace. That's why most people are mediocre, they refuse to acknowledge the truth until it backfist's them in the face. I have been a fighter and have associated with real martial artists my entire adult life. I have close friends who do NHB/MMAs and I also have friends who are true traditionalists. My opinions are oft-times reinforced by lengthy conversations with many masters of their disciplines, and it's refreshing to see some logic used to evaluate, rather than esoteric feelings or personal tastes! You need to thaw your brain out and move a little further south.

P.-friggin'-S.: Sorry to sound like an A.. Hole but i like to respond to suckers with equal force. You assumed that I never left Texas and once again you were wrong. I have commuted for years back-and-forth between San Antonio and LA. LA is where I met Caique, and where I was introduced to many good sport guys. I'm more than qualified to evaluate the art of sport-oriented fighting. I can tell you that Kise's, Soken's and Lindsey's comments on Matsubayashi-Ryu were right on point. Most Karate, including many Ryukyuan systems, is "School-boy" karate. Remember those are THEIR words not MINE! Yes, Nagamine was a good master, but the fact is he sold out to the Japanese. He was a Jap soldier, and he fought in WWII (as did some but not all of the Okinawan "Masters"). Period. When you sell out to the system you become diluted and controlled. Fighting is not a controllable thing. As for me being on meds: Nope just prescribe them fool! Love, Peace, and Polar Bear grease..... Bryan Seer

Doug Daulton
28th August 2001, 14:31
Gents,

I just caught Mr. Seer's post. Before this becomes a flame-war, I'd like to offer the following observation ...

Like many folks at E-Budo, both of you seem tired and frustrated with the quasi-karate/budo which promoted and taught by many of "dojo" and "sensei" in the West. In this, neither of you are alone. I share this frustration, as do many others. How do we work for change?

For starters, rather than squaring off against one another, let's try to stay focused on exchanging ideas. After all, it is said that a sign of intelligence is the ability to carefully consider an opposing viewpoint without first judging it's merit. As your moderator, this is the kind of discussion and dialogue I encourage.

I am not asking anyone to change their convictions or water down their training. In this community, that would be like asking the ocean to dry up! :D Rather I'd ask that we all keep an open mind and, without venom, address our differences in a removed, unemotional way. Keep the fire and passion, just direct it more efficiently and in a manner which will illicit continued dialogue.

Think it as the difference between kumite by two mukyu as opposed to kumite by two udansha. The first is an undisciplined, rough street fight where both get hurt by the lightest of waza. In the latter, both can go full bore and neither is injured (In a quality dojo). This is all I ask.

Regards,

29th August 2001, 04:02
Sensei Dalton: You are 100% correct. Sometimes I dwell on trivial matters, and I need to learn to be more cordial in my responses. I just thought that Mr. Kass was slightly condascending in his assumptions. I know that popular culture and sport are what make the modern Western World go-round, but I just thought I'd share the perspective of some accomplished and respected teachers' opinions. I'm probably letting my bad experience with one Matsubayashi dojo effect me too much, though. Thanks for your candor and decorum, sir.
Bryan Cyr

Jussi Häkkinen
30th August 2001, 12:52
Ananku, in its original version, is a kata created by Kyan Chotoku. It contains parts from Seisan, Passai and Wansu and is made to demonstrate both shuri-te and tomari-te sides of his karate.

Seisan, when done in Kyan-sensei's style (I do it several times daily) doesn't have tension like Naha-te -seisan does. It is rather fast kata, though long and heavy.

Reason why Nagamine didn't learn Seisan: He already knew the Pinan-kata.
Seisan is a first kata in Sukunaihayashi-branch of Shorin-Ryu because it contains root skills for fighting - blocking, striking and kicking, as well as some blocks.
Pinan-kata, in Kobayashi-branch, are made for same reason - learning foundation for karate. Nagamine already knew these, so Kyan gave him other kata that were more important for him.

Matsubayashi-ryu Ananku is totally different from any other Ananku. It may be Nagamine's own creation, made from respect to his teacher. In other styles, the roots of Ananku are clearly visible.


That's the explanation what I've got to those questions from rather high senseis.

1st September 2001, 23:07
Unlike Matsubayashi-Ryu, Kobayashi Shorin teaches the Naihanchi Kata as their introductory fighting set. The Pinans are taught after the Kihon Kata and Naihanchi series.

As for Ananku, it has many similarities to the Seisan we practice in Matsumura Orthodox. Maybe Nagamine combined Seisan's movements with those of a Tomari form he thought reinforced similar principles. I dunno, just taking a stab at it. I do think that Seisan is not an introductory form, as it teaches very solid intermediate-to-advanced fighting techs (ex. Body-Change, proper use of hips and gravity, gyaku- and tui-te).
Bryan Seer

Jussi Häkkinen
2nd September 2001, 00:00
Yes, Seisan is all what you said. However, Sukunaihayashi Shorin-Ryu teaches Seisan as a first kata because it is suitable for rootbuilding. It doesn't reduce its value later in any way. I love the kata very much and find something new from it every day.

Ananku, as it is done in Sukunaihayashi, is built from these parts:

Two shuto-uke, moving forwards: Passai
Two Chudanuke+renzokutsuki: Seisan
Returning to beginning.
Two hand block (jodan&chudanuke), hasami uchi, oi tsuki: Passai
two Chudanuke, renzokutsuki, keri, gyakutsuki: Seisan
Mawashi hiji uchi (empi): Passai
Gedanbarai: Wansu
Oi-tsuki: Passai
Chudanuke-step over-maegeri-gedanbarai-gyakutsuki-chudanuke: Seisan
Turn and two shuto-uke, moving backwards: Wansu.

That is the Ananku that Kyan Chotoku made. It's a blend of Tomari-te (Wansu and Passai) and Shuri-Te (Seisan). My personal belief is that Chotoku made it to be some kind of "introduction" to his own ideas of fighting.

Now, where does Nagamine's Ananku come? Well, Kyan Chotoku made his Ananku, also some other of his students made their own kata (Zenryo Shimabukuro made Wanchin, Tatsuo Shimabuku made Sunsu). Maybe Nagamine wanted to make honor to his teacher and named his own kata as Ananku to respect Kyan. That's one possibility.
Other possibility is that he learned his Ananku from somewhere else and maybe made some changes to that version, producing such a different Ananku.

Ananku's history is a very much discussed (and studied) issue in the style I study (Shorin-Ryu Seibukan, Sukunaihayashi-family). According to rather high instances the history is like I have told here. The mistakes, though, are mine.

Doug Daulton
2nd September 2001, 01:16
Bryan and Jussi ...

Great ideas! Now you've got me wondering about the origins of Nagamine's Ananku. I'll have to do some digging. Thanks for adding another project to my already full plate! :D

BTW, it is said by some in Matsubayashi-ryu that the Naihanchi were originally intended to be the introductory kata. As Jussi said re: Seisan, the Naihanchi were seen as excellent root-builders and their earlier introduction in no way was intended to diminish their later, more complex teachings.

With this in mind, there is no official prohibition (of which I am aware) in Matsubayashi-ryu against introducing the Naihanchi earlier. They are simply not required until the Sankyu shinza. As a result, I actually introduce Naihanchi Shodan as the third kata (after the two Fukyukata and before the Pinan.) So, the kata progression for my students is generally as follows ...

F1
F2
N1
P1
P2
N2
P3
P4
P5
N3

I've had good results with this. Earlier in the progression, I see greater leg strength and ability to demonstrate the beginnings of effective hip application. I do not see any demonstrable negative impact on the development of the pinan waza.

I love Naihanchi! :cool:

Regards,

2nd September 2001, 02:34
Naihanchi are my favorite kata, too. I agree with you when you say they are good foundation forms AND advanced fighting forms. I wonder how the application differs from style to style? On Kung Fu Online someone asked about the differences between Isshin's Seisan and others. Here was my reply: Here's Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu's version:
1) Salutations.
2) Step back into L. Pinan Dachi immediate L.outside block-R. reverse punch (Solar Plexus)-R. outside block (performed in combo, as 1 tech)
3) Crescent sweeping step forward w/ the right foot into R. Pinan dachi into immediate L. reverse punch (S.P.)- L. outside block combo
4) Step forward into L. Pinan-Lead Hand punch
5) Slide back into L. Forward Stance (not too deep) and simultaneous Low Double Fist block-strike (hitting groin/low kick with first 2 knuckles), into R. (rear leg) low whip kick
6)Still in L. forward stance, drop weight while simultaneously performing double outside block (both arms). this tech may also be interpreted as an a lapel or double arm grab. Sinking your weight upsets opponent's balance and locks in Ti technique.
7) Quickly step rear (right) foot in front and outside left foot (counter-clockwise spin), immed. Execute X-block at head level, and then low double knife hand block/strike/control to your sides (all done in passai stance).
8) Step forward with your right into R. 45 degree stance and do right reverse ridge-hand to head/neck and L. hand pull/rear block ( thumb to the side of outer thigh w/ palm facing behind you), then straighten back foot (into Pinan dachi) as you perform snake fist strike to neck/eyes (slight twisting adds torque to tech.). Repeat this combo 2 more times ending with R. forward stance (Pinan Dachi)
9) Step 45 deg. out to L. Pinan stance-double punch-R. low whip kick
10) Step 45 deg out to R. Pinan-double punch-L. low whip kick
11) Step 45 deg. to the middle into L. Pinan-double punch- R. whip kick
12) Spin clockwise into R. foot forward "L" stance while simultaneosly performing circular R. strike/block/grab, Right fist protecting Solar Plexus and L. chambered (ti tech not strike).
13) Step forward w/ R. into R. L-Stance and simult. R. overhand backfist.
14) Step back into R. Pinan execute R. outside block (L. chambered)
15) L. ft. steps forward into hidden leg, to R. rear low whip kick
16) Step into R. forward stance-R. down block
17) L. reverse punch (S.P.) into R. outside block-whip kick combo
18) Spin counter clokwise facing opp. direction into L. outside circular block/strike/grab into L. L-stance
19) Step forward into L. L-stance, do L. overhead backhand, then step back into L. Pinan w/ L. outside block
20) R. foot forward Hidden foot (crooked) stance L. low whip kick
21) Step to R. Pinan stance w/ right low block then L. reverse punch
22) Execute R. outside block/strike-lead leg whip kick and step clockwise into spinning hidden R. outside backfist (L. on top almost straight protecting upper body, R. hidden under L. just outside centerline). You should be in R. forward stance
23) Step back into L. Pinan Dachi and perform double low knife hand Seisan kickig (foot/leg trap)
24) Throw both hands into double outward half-moon leg "throw". Double knife hand Ti chamber (palms up). Execute Seisan "trap" again (double low shutos, palms down
25) Pull leg to R. knife hand grab/pull (chambering straight back)
26) With left in open hand position (shuto), strike/cross chambered R. hand over open left in closed fist position simult. closing left fist to form low x-block/strike/grab (Kiai)
27 Step L. back to right, finishing kata with Matsumura salutation.
Whewww! I hope this helps. I think I got it right, but I may have made a mistake here or there. I'm pretty sure (99.9999%), though. In Matsumura Seito the head/body is either level or sinking to provide mass to the tech.. Rising is discouraged usually as gravity works the opposite way. Our stances are NEVER deep. I think that that's one of the major differences between this style and other Japanese/Okinawan styles (even the other Shorin Ryuha). Peep this sequence and tell me if I conveyed the Kata techs in an intelligible way. Is there a Seisan in Shotokan or TKD? Do you know the Isshin Seisan, and if so what are the differences? Matsumura Orthodox also likes toe-kicks (especially at BB level), and uses a 3/4 twist punch. Anatomically/biomech. Much more stable than even the traditional horiz. Karate punch. It's just as fast as the vertical punch but stronger. By the way we have a really intricate belt system. It consists of white belt and black belt, so don't be fooled by a Matsumura Shorin white belt! Have a great week and happy training!!! Correction...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 7's X or Eagle wing block/grab is performed in a forward (Pinan Dachi) not Pai Sai stance...


posted 07-08-01 06:
I know I'm extremely long-winded, sorry to take up so much space and time. Safe and productive practice sessions...

Jussi Häkkinen
2nd September 2001, 07:16
Here's the URL to Sukunai Hayashi's Seisan-kata, here described in a way that Shorin-Ryu Seibukan teaches it:

http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6280

(Since it is rather lengthy, I thought that it might be better to use URL only, especially since it's in same forum).


But seems like that we have a conversation here, and actually one that interests me very much. Thank you, gentlemen!

(Must ask some patience when you're reading my posts. English is not my native language, so mistakens may/will happen)

Victor
2nd September 2001, 10:37
Shorinichi,

If you wish to see a standard representation of Isshinryu's Seisan kata, you can go to Norbert Donnelly's Site at http://www.isshinryu.com/seisan1a.htm . His demonstration of the Isshinryu Seisan Kata should help you.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

2nd September 2001, 13:06
Victor: Thanks for the link. The Isshin Ryu Seisan is very close to Matsumura Seito's Seisan! I would even suspect that Hangetsu, the Shotokan interpretation of this form, is very similar also. Thanks for everything, man.
Bryan Seer

Jussi Häkkinen
2nd September 2001, 20:25
Actually, Shotokan's Hangetsu is a bit farther from Shuri-te -Seisan than you'd think. It still is pretty close. However, in the Shotokai-circles there is a kata known as "Hangetsu Den", which is rather identical (of course with style flavour) to shuri-te -seisan.

I got a possibility to compare the Seisan I know (Shorin-Ryu Seibukan), Hangetsu (Shotokan), Seisan (Wado-Ryu) and Hangetsu Den (Shotokai) just recently. Shotokai and Shorin-Ryu versions show clearly the same roots, while Shotokan Hangetsu is a bit farther from that, sharing roots with Wado-Ryu Seisan (which I don't think to be a huge wonder since Ohtsuka most probably has learned his Seisan from Funakoshi).

However, I'd make a conclusion that all those Seisan/Hangetsu kata share roots in the histry, but the point when differences were born may be pretty far back in time.

Victor
3rd September 2001, 03:49
I'm really enjoying this topic for I've long been a fan of Seisan. It seems to me there is a Seisan-ness underlying the kata, binding all of the different versions to some original source.

You might enjoy looking at the Seisan (Sehshan) described and taught by Funakoshi Ginchin from his book 'Karate Jutsu', translated by John Teramoto and originally published in the 1920's. This is not the Hangetsu of the JKA but rather likely the Sehshan of Itosu his instructor.

Enjoy,
Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Sehshan, Shorei-ryu

By Funakoshi Ginchin "Karate Jutsu – Translated by John
Teramoto

This version goes back to the 1920's. (Victor)

There are 41 steps in all, Count out the steps in sets from one to
ten, repeating as needed until completion of the kata. Required time
about two minutes.

After bowing in heisoku-dachi stand in yoi posture with the hands in fists and the feet opened in hachiji-dachi.

1.With the left hand and foot moving together, step into Line 2
with a motion describing a semicircular path to the right, and block
with the left hand (the back of the fist is up) while pulling the
right fist to the hip.
2.Simultaneously retract the left fist and extend the right
fist in a punch.
3.Moving the right hand and foot in a semi-circular path
together, step forward along Line 2 (this is the exact oposite of 1).
4.Simultaneously retract the right fist and extend the left
fist in a punch.
5.Repeat the exact same motion as 1 along the same line.
6.Simultaneously retract the left fist and extend the right
fist in a punch.
7.Pull both fists in front of the chest and spread the elbows (the fists are ippon-ken, and the backs of the fists face upwards: refer to Fig. 185).
8.Extend both fists straight ahead, shoulders width apart.
9.Spread both hands with the thumbs and fingers together by raising the elbows to shoulder level on either side of the head, with the elbows bent and the forearms parallel.
10.From that position, lower the arms and extend them while
extending the upper body (the palms of the hands face the thighs).
11.Step forward with the right foot ad at the same time pivot on the left leg to turn and face in the opposite direction taking the posture shown in the figure.
12.Maintain the exact posture but turn the right hand over to the left and have a feeling of pulling down slightly in front of the body.
13.Take a step forward along the same line (Line 2) with the right foot and at the same time with the right hand in front of the left shoulder and the left hand just outside the right elbow, pull both hands apart (taking a posture that is the mirror image of Fig. 186).
14.Maintain the same posture and turn the hand over.
15.Step forward along the same line with the left foot and at the same time take the posture shown in Fig 186.
16.Turn the right hand over.
17.Using the left leg as a pivot, step to the right with the
right foot and take a right hand blocking posture (refer to Koshokun
Fig. 143). (Right Side Block – Victor)
18.Retract the right hand and at the same time punch with the left.
19.Retract the left hand while simultaneously punching with the right. (After the kata has been sufficiently memorized, these two
movements should be made as one continuous movement.)
20.Turn to the left (actually turning 180 degrees to face in the opposite direction) and with a slight feeling of yoriashi take a left
hand blocking posture (refer to Koshokun Fig. 141). (Left Side Block – Victor)
21.Retract the left hand while punching with the right.
22.Retract the right hand while punching with the left (here again, these punches should later be done continuously).
23.Transfer the right foot onto Line 2 and performing slight
yoriashi take a right hand blocking posture (refer to Pin'an
Shodan Fig. 50).
24.Retarct the right hand while simultaneously punching with the left.
25.Retract the left hand while simultaneously punching with the
right (later to be performed continuously).
26.Along the same line pull both hands to the right hip before taking the left hand and swinging it high and to the rear, while at the same time turning and raising the left knee as high as possible, then bring the left fist down in urate (the eyes are fixed looking just beyond the fist).
27.Maintaining the posture of the upper body, unobtrusively slip
the right foot over the left, placing it right beside the other.
28.Kick with the left foot toward the tip of the left hand.
29.Bend the left arm halfway, bringing the fist in front of the left shoulder before turning it so that the back of the fist faces upward and immediately thrusting it forward with yoriashi.
30.Immediately retract the left fist and attack with the right.
31.Pull the right fist back to the hip and at the same time make an upper level block with the left arm (this is the same posture that in Pin'an Shodan Fig. 54 except that here the leg is bent).
32.Turn to look to the rear while at the same time bringing the right leg and arm around as high as possible and then striking with urate (the fist should be at mid level; this is opposite of 26).
33.Slip the left foot over and place it down next to the right.
34.As soon as the foot is placed kick with the right foot
towards the tip of the right hand.
35.Bending the right arm in half in front of the body
immediately twist the fist so that the back is facing up and thrust
together with yoriashi.
36.Retract the right hand and punch simultaneously with the left.
37.Retract the left hand and simultaneously make an upper level block with the right.
38.Look to the rear and move the left leg and arm together in a strike.
39.Kick the left hand with the right foot in a crescent kick
(mikazuki-keri).
40.Retract the left hand and punch with the right.
41.Immediately pull the left foot back, bending both knees and supporting the body on the right leg, and place both hands above the left kneecap in a block against a kick. At yame, return to the original posture to conclude the kata.

Jussi Häkkinen
3rd September 2001, 07:51
So Funakoshi taught Shorei-Ryu (Naha-Te) Seisan. This explains the differencies, since Naha-Te Seisan and Shuri-Te (Shorin-Ryu) Seisan have pretty clear differences, though roughlt looking the outer form shows historical relationship between these forms.

Same differencies are visible when you compare Shotokan's Hangetsu and Shotokai's Hangetsu Den. Hangetsu pretty clearly carries the heritage of Naha-Te Seisan, while Hangetsu Den comes from Shuri-Te Seisan.

Rob Alvelais
3rd September 2001, 16:04
Originally posted by Jussi Häkkinen
So Funakoshi taught Shorei-Ryu (Naha-Te) Seisan. This explains the differencies, since Naha-Te Seisan and Shuri-Te (Shorin-Ryu) Seisan have pretty clear differences, though roughlt looking the outer form shows historical relationship between these forms.

Same differencies are visible when you compare Shotokan's Hangetsu and Shotokai's Hangetsu Den. Hangetsu pretty clearly carries the heritage of Naha-Te Seisan, while Hangetsu Den comes from Shuri-Te Seisan. \

Being quite familiar with the shito ryu seisan (higaonna kei) and having seen the Ryuei Ryu, Goju and Uechi Seisan, I'd have to disagree with your premise above. IMO, the Hangetsu is a Shuri kata, and really doesn't resemble the Naha te seisan. The Shito, Ryuei Ryu, Goju and uechi seisan are actually fairly similar to one another and yet significantly different from the Shorin versions that I've seen, Wado's and Shotokan's hangetsu. Hangetsu and Wado's Seishan fairly closely resemble the shorin ryu versions that I've seen (Renshinkan Shorinji Ryu) .

Rob

Jussi Häkkinen
3rd September 2001, 19:26
Must disagree. I was a Shorinji-Ryu Renshinkan student before I changed to that style's "father" style, Shorin-Ryu Seibukan (Tamotsu Isamu studied karate under Zenryo Shimabukuro for a while, kata list is almost identical with Seibukan). Difference between Shotokan's Hangetsu and Sukunai Hayashi Seisan (This definition suits to both styles mentioned above) is clear.

However, I just made that conclusion after seeing "Sehshan, Shorei-ryu By Funakoshi Ginchin "Karate Jutsu – Translated by John
Teramoto"". Shorei-Ryu generally is used to refer to Naha-Te, while Shorin-Ryu is referring to Shuri-Te (and some Tomari-Te in many styles).
If you think about Naha-Te Seisan done Shuri-Te way, would that bring it closer?

However, while Hangetsu Den (Shotokai) is so close to Sukunai Hayashi Seisan, I could think this a bit farther. If I remove few movements, simplify others and overall think like I'm "forgetting" something and remembering the kata very hard, I could possibly end up with Shotokan-alike Hangetsu (if I originally start with Shorin-Ryu Seisan).

Nakayama (or some other Shotokan-bigwig) stated in some writing that Senseis did gather together after war to remembering some kata that they had _forgot_ during wartime. That would explain the form that is slightly different from Okinawan versions. In case that Wado-Ryu version has been checked at the same time, that would explain the similarity of current Wado-Ryu verson and Shotokan-version.

Well, back to the drawing board, seems like the conclusion isn't finished yet...

kenshorin
27th September 2001, 17:41
Oh man! I'm late jumping in on the Matsubayashi thread! Well here's my two cents.


Originally posted by Doug Daulton
The core of Matsubayashi-ryu is NOT tournament-oriented. Anyone whose spent time researching the art or studying its founder knows that Nagamine O'Sensei thought tournaments were ridiculous wastes of time and frowned on the practice of jiyu-kumite.

You are right on this Doug. In fact, in the Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do book by Nagamine, he slams the tournament circuit, saying it takes the focus of karate off what it should be and into a sport focus. But you are also correct in that different dojos have differenty instructors who may or may not like the sport karate.

As to Seisan, I am not sure whether or not Nagamine knew the kata or not, but I do know that there are a great number of kata he left out when he developed Matsubayashi-ryu. Just like we on E-budo are always arguing, there are schools who do too many kata, and they lose the point of the kata. Nagamine wanted to keep the number of kata low, so that students could look deeply into the kata. I believe at Nagamine's dojo, there are only a handful of kata required for Shodan.

Also, at the time he developed Matsubayashi, he left out kata that were done by a number of styles already existing, saying if people wanted to do those kata, go do those styles. Could be that Seisan was one, since it was already inclusive in a lot of Goju styles predating the founding of Matsubayashi-ryu. From my research on this, Nagamine wanted to start a style that was highly natural, as has been said, and offered something different from what other predating styles were already doing, rather than just repeat the same stuff, while keeping true to his karate lineage as well. That is why you find a number of kata which are quite unique to Matsubayashi-ryu.

Jussi Häkkinen
27th September 2001, 23:10
Seems like the origin of the Funakoshi's Seisan was Tomari-Te -seisan (See the Seisan-thread) if I understand Mr. McCarthy's post correctly.

However, Nagamine used Pinan-kata to the same thing that Kyan and Kyan's students used Seisan for - building the root for karate. Seisan introduces many basic fighting skills. I don't say that it's only a beginner-kata, but it's useful for that.
Kobayashi-side, then, uses Pinan-kata for rootbuilding and then - if the style teaches Seisan at all - teach Seisan very much later.

My personal belief is that Kyan never taught Nagamine a Seisan because Nagamine already did know Pinan-kata. Kyan moved straight to something that would be more useful for Nagamine.
If Nagamine learned Seisan later or not, he still may have thought that he'll teach the karate the way he learned it - and left Seisan out.

7th January 2002, 00:36
Originally posted by Jim Kass
[

JK: Bryan you are a strange beast without to much knowledge of martial arts, but after training with Okinawa Sensei for over 35 years, I'm sure YOU know the answers.


Thank you for recognizing my "uniqueness". Those early posts were perceptions based on my vantage point. Shidokan/Shorinkan are very similar, but the former is a little bit more regimented. From my very, very, very limited experience with Shorin Ryu, I have observed all 4 main ryuha and have only been impressed with 3 (Shobayashi, Kobayashi, and Matsumura Orthodox). Sensei Eihachi Ota is an awesome Shorin stylist, but other than that I haven't met any Matsubayashi guys who have impressed me. That's just the facts based on MY experiences.

Why did you wait so long to reply to these threads? What style(s) do you train in? I would love to train with as many Shorin practitioners as possible. I have always sought knowledge and the different stylistic subtleties inherent in each ryuha. I also know that there are many other Shorin ryuha that I have not encountered, as well as many Ryukyuan styles that are great combat systems. I'd love to train in these also.

I apologize if we got off on the wrong foot. I had just had a very bad experience with a Matsubayashi dojo in my area, and what was being presented to me as Shorin looked ridiculous, and ineffective (for reality). I found out later that the Sensei was truly a Shuri Ryu guy with limited knowledge in Matsubayashi. Forgive me for my lack of decorum. My bad.

I hope you haven't been harping on my tirade for all these months. Seems kinda' like a waste of mental space. Just know that I am proud to have trained in Kobayashi (under Nakazato's Shorinkan), and feel that all Okinawan karate has its practical merits. Shorin Ryu is one big family and every once-in-awhile even families have disagreements. I apologize for the immaturity I displayed. BTW I'm over 30 years old, but that's as much as I can tell you!

P.S.: It's "too" not "to". Later and Happy New Year!
Bryan Seer

Doug Daulton
8th January 2002, 06:15
Jim & Bryan,

Thanks for not making me do my job. :D